Point Sharing/Point Guard

Iowan

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I may get lambasted for this but here it goes:

Any non-resident with max or near max elk points willing to do the point share/point guard thing to help me draw a good archery elk tag in the coming years? I will cover all your costs (point guard and tag expense) and offer you a fully guided whitetail hunt (gun or bow) here on my farms (owned and leased) at your convenience - $3,000+ value. References and photos available. I am also willing to talk about a payment in lieu of the hunt offer. I only have three points for elk now but will have loyalty in two years and plan to get the permanent hunter ed bonus point. Turn your Arizona elk points into a great whitetail hunt in addition to the elk hunt. I have never taken an elk with my bow and I am 50 so I need to get after it. My understanding is that this is legal and a common practice? Feel free to PM me and we can go from there.
 
I may get lambasted for this but here it goes:

Any non-resident with max or near max elk points willing to do the point share/point guard thing to help me draw a good archery elk tag in the coming years? I will cover all your costs (point guard and tag expense) and offer you a fully guided whitetail hunt (gun or bow) here on my farms (owned and leased) at your convenience - $3,000+ value. References and photos available. I am also willing to talk about a payment in lieu of the hunt offer. I only have three points for elk now but will have loyalty in two years and plan to get the permanent hunter ed bonus point. Turn your Arizona elk points into a great whitetail hunt in addition to the elk hunt. I have never taken an elk with my bow and I am 50 so I need to get after it. My understanding is that this is legal and a common practice? Feel free to PM me and we can go from there.
Or maybe you'll get some legit inquiries? Good luck.
 
If I had the points, I would be all over this (assuming it is legal of course ?)

Unfortunately I don’t have enough AZ elk points to help you.
 
Thanks for all the contacts and advice - someone made a good point - this would work with a resident hunter also.

Someone asked what I was looking for - just a good hunt with a chance at a solid bull - I have killed a couple good bulls but I want a chance at one with archery equipment.
 
Thanks for all the contacts and advice - someone made a good point - this would work with a resident hunter also.

Someone asked what I was looking for - just a good hunt with a chance at a solid bull - I have killed a couple good bulls but I want a chance at one with archery equipment.
Right. I was going to ask why you specified a NR since you can use either. I had 20 BP but you're about two weeks too late to get into the action. ;)
 
Doesn't matter to me at all. Just looking to work something out with someone who needs some points shared for what they want to do.
 
Totally legal and common practice. But.... I'm surprised that game and fish hasn't written a rule outlawing the acceptance of compensation for shared points.
 
This is just the tip of the iceburg of how point guard is used/abused. F&G could care less... I bet 3k is on the low end of the spectrum. Going rate for strip point sharing is way north of that... They can fix part of it by requiring both applicants to use point guard or not. Ed F
 
This is just the tip of the iceburg of how point guard is used/abused. F&G could care less... I bet 3k is on the low end of the spectrum. Going rate for strip point sharing is way north of that... They can fix part of it by requiring both applicants to use point guard or not. Ed F
That would be a dumb rule.

Two guys get drawn on the same app with PG and one of them gets hurt at work. So now because he can't hunt they should penalize his buddy and keep him from hunting as well?
 
That would be a dumb rule.

Two guys get drawn on the same app with PG and one of them gets hurt at work. So now because he can't hunt they should penalize his buddy and keep him from hunting as well?
My thoughts exactly.

I don't see the problem with it. If a guy let's someone ride his app and then turns his tag back in... the next hunter in line gets that tag. Whether he uses his points alone for his own tag or someone uses his points and the other tag goes back in the pot... a tag is getting drawn regardless. I don't know why anyone outside the situation would care.
 
My thoughts exactly.

I don't see the problem with it. If a guy let's someone ride his app and then turns his tag back in... the next hunter in line gets that tag. Whether he uses his points alone for his own tag or someone uses his points and the other tag goes back in the pot... a tag is getting drawn regardless. I don't know why anyone outside the situation would care.
Bingo.
 
Going rate for strip point sharing is way north of that...
I'm not trying to dogpile but this doesn't even make sense.

If a guy has max points and someone wanted to point share with him for a strip tag... the other guy obviously doesn't have the points to draw. If they go on an app together they use the average between the two applicants. They are out of the max point pool and it's no longer a guaranteed draw. So you're saying guys are paying "way north" of $3000 for a CHANCE to draw a strip tag? Sorry... I don't see that happening often enough to make a difference... if it happens at all.
 
It would work if a guy with max points helped a guy just under max and their average still got them in the bonus pass.
True and I thought of that.. but why would a guy pay thousands when he could just wait a year or two to draw the tag? I could imagine a few scenarios where a guy would do that but I doubt it's very common. Then again maybe it is common... we hunters are a goofy bunch... lol
 
Speaking of goofy, what about the person who asks to put in with you, because you have a lot of points, so he has a chance at a decent tag. Example, " Hey buddy, since you have 10 points and I have 2, let's put in together for the early Kaibab hunt." I hear that line every time the deer draw rolls around.
 
Speaking of goofy, what about the person who asks to put in with you, because you have a lot of points, so he has a chance at a decent tag. Example, " Hey buddy, since you have 10 points and I have 2, let's put in together for the early Kaibab hunt." I hear that line every time the deer draw rolls around.
I wouldn't know about that one... I've never had more than 4 points for deer... lol. Being a desert rat has its benefits.
 
I think game and fish should get rid of the point sharing system all together. It’s frustrating that someone who doesn’t have the money or connections to share points has to patiently wait in line as they accrue points year after year while not getting drawn.
Others, however, can either get drawn or tremendously increase their odds of being drawn by paying to share points or apply themselves with friends and family that they have been putting in for years and years.
The simple solution is to allow party applications, but only use the lowest amount of points of anyone in the group. That way people can still put in and hunt together, but no one gets to “cut in line” and enter the draw a year after being drawn with a large number of points.

Am I missing a key benefit of the point sharing system? I have yet to find how it is fair for the general public who all should have an equal chance at hunting wildlife, a shared resource here in Arizona. For what it’s worth, I love the hybrid system that we have in AZ. I think it is a good approach to rewarding those with more points but also creating a chance for everyone to get drawn. I just feel that the point sharing system undermines the current effective structure of the draw by introducing ways to exploit it.
 
I think game and fish should get rid of the point sharing system all together. It’s frustrating that someone who doesn’t have the money or connections to share points has to patiently wait in line as they accrue points year after year while not getting drawn.
Others, however, can either get drawn or tremendously increase their odds of being drawn by paying to share points or apply themselves with friends and family that they have been putting in for years and years.
The simple solution is to allow party applications, but only use the lowest amount of points of anyone in the group. That way people can still put in and hunt together, but no one gets to “cut in line” and enter the draw a year after being drawn with a large number of points.

Am I missing a key benefit of the point sharing system? I have yet to find how it is fair for the general public who all should have an equal chance at hunting wildlife, a shared resource here in Arizona. For what it’s worth, I love the hybrid system that we have in AZ. I think it is a good approach to rewarding those with more points but also creating a chance for everyone to get drawn. I just feel that the point sharing system undermines the current effective structure of the draw by introducing ways to exploit it.
Point guard is not and was never intended to be a point sharing system. Guys just figured out how to use it to their advantage. Game and Fish saw it coming so I'm sure that's why they only allow you to use it once prior to using all your points. The fact that you can only use it once means its not a rampant problem that needs to be corrected so there's draw "equity". I see that word used a lot lately... lol.

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Point guard is not and was never intended to be a point sharing system. Guys just figured out how to use it to their advantage. Game and Fish saw it coming so I'm sure that's why they only allow you to use it once prior to using all your points. The fact that you can only use it once means is not a rampant problem that needs to be corrected so there's draw "equity". I see that word used a lot lately... lol.

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You’re absolutely right, point guard isn’t the problem, I think it’s a good option to give hunters and isn’t a “rampant” problem.

I’m focusing more on point sharing in general. I don’t think people should be able to average points with someone else at all.
 
That would be a dumb rule.

Two guys get drawn on the same app with PG and one of them gets hurt at work. So now because he can't hunt they should penalize his buddy and keep him from hunting as well?

That's the intent of point guard... but not how it's abused. Picture this, if you will... an honest hard working guy puts his grandmother, sister, mother in law and 20 other people in for points who don't even hunt. Then, joins in on an app with one of them to statistically draw a desired tag. When they draw, grandma uses point guard and gets her points back. The next year that lucky guy gets to use grandmas points again. Then the next year its mother in laws turn... Having them both use point guard would eliminate this.

The original poster is asking to do this for a one time event. Whoever takes his offer can use point guard, collect a hunt/cash and still get another bonus point. I know some guys who are banking points on 20+ non hunters. Tell me that's not abuse...

Something else I don't like... When someone uses point guard because of drought/perceived poor antler growth or they stubbed their toe... they can choose to give their tag to a non-profit... so, it doesn't always go to the next in line. I'm all for disabled military and children getting tags but I'm not for a guy losing his turn in line because someone has a stupid reason for not wanting to hunt.

If you break a leg before your hunt... learn how to hunt on crutches. Separates the men from the boys. Ed F
 
You’re absolutely right, point guard isn’t the problem, I think it’s a good option to give hunters and isn’t a “rampant” problem.

I’m focusing more on point sharing in general. I don’t think people should be able to average points with someone else at all.
But then you end up with a bigger point creep problem than we already have. The best thing that can happen to our system is clearing mid/high point holders out as fast as possible. I personally think they should start squaring points but that's another conversation.
 
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I'm not trying to dogpile but this doesn't even make sense.

If a guy has max points and someone wanted to point share with him for a strip tag... the other guy obviously doesn't have the points to draw. If they go on an app together they use the average between the two applicants. They are out of the max point pool and it's no longer a guaranteed draw. So you're saying guys are paying "way north" of $3000 for a CHANCE to draw a strip tag? Sorry... I don't see that happening often enough to make a difference... if it happens at all.

Not entirely true.... resident archery strip tag is not even close to max points. That's what I was referring to and mostly care about. Ed F
 
That's the intent of point guard... but not how it's abused. Picture this, if you will... an honest hard working guy puts his grandmother, sister, mother in law and 20 other people in for points who don't even hunt. Then, joins in on an app with one of them to statistically draw a desired tag. When they draw, grandma uses point guard and gets her points back. The next year that lucky guy gets to use grandmas points again. Then the next year its mother in laws turn... Having them both use point guard would eliminate this.

The original poster is asking to do this for a one time event. Whoever takes his offer can use point guard, collect a hunt/cash and still get another bonus point. I know some guys who are banking points on 20+ non hunters. Tell me that's not abuse...

Something else I don't like... When someone uses point guard because of drought/perceived poor antler growth or they stubbed their toe... they can choose to give their tag to a non-profit... so, it doesn't always go to the next in line. I'm all for disabled military and children getting tags but I'm not for a guy losing his turn in line because someone has a stupid reason for not wanting to hunt.

If you break a leg before your hunt... learn how to hunt on crutches. Separates the men from the boys. Ed F
20+ non hunters? If a guy is spending that much on hunting licenses, app fees and point guard for enough years for it to matter... he deserves some tags... lol. I'm joking of course. I understand that guys have a problem with the principle of the whole thing. I kinda do too actually. I can also imagine the frustration someone trying to draw a strip tag would feel.
 
20+ non hunters? If a guy is spending that much on hunting licenses, app fees and point guard for enough years for it to matter... he deserves some tags... lol. I'm joking of course. I understand that guys have a problem with the principle of the whole thing. I kinda do too actually. I can also imagine the frustration someone trying to draw a strip tag would feel.

Not a huge problem... just pointing out the abuse. I know two guys who have elk tags this year because of them working the system. Good for them... shame on F&G. Ed F
 
Not sure how some think it doesn’t hurt people with lots of points if a guy with 5 gets a tag a guy with 15 applied for he definately jumped the line(not talking random tags)and screwed the guy with 15. I don’t really like it but they are not doing anything illegal. I have piggy backed guys points in other states before it’s an abused system everywhere but F&G would need to fix it, it won’t fix itself
 
Not sure how some think it doesn’t hurt people with lots of points if a guy with 5 gets a tag a guy with 15 applied for he definately jumped the line(not talking random tags)and screwed the guy with 15. I don’t really like it but they are not doing anything illegal. I have piggy backed guys points in other states before it’s an abused system everywhere but F&G would need to fix it, it won’t fix itself
It doesn't hurt the guy with 15 points because if he didn't draw a tag and had ANY chance to get a tag, he would get the surrendered tag because he's next in line. If he didn't get the surrendered tag... he didn't have a chance at drawing regardless of any point sharing. Our system is 80% random draw, if you have enough points to guarantee a tag, a guy with 5 points piggy backing on an app will not change that. He will bump someone out of the random draw. But guess what!!! The guy that gets bumped will still get a tag when the other tag is surrendered!! It literally hurts nobody

That being said, there's the principle side of the argument which I totally understand.
 
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You’re absolutely right, point guard isn’t the problem, I think it’s a good option to give hunters and isn’t a “rampant” problem.

I’m focusing more on point sharing in general. I don’t think people should be able to average points with someone else at all.
Another thing to also consider is that in some cases point sharing LOWERS the odds for the guy with the most points.
 
One app with 5 and another with 21, both draw in the bonus pass with 13, one tag gets surrendered and goes to the next in line, and the guy that had 5 still has a bonus pass tag that would have gone to another 13 point app from that pass. The guy that got jumped got screwed but, it happens in every state that has point averaging for group apps, which is most of them.
 
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One app with 5 and another with 21, both draw in the bonus pass with 13, one tag gets surrendered and goes to the next in line, and the guy that had 5 still has a bonus pass tag that would have gone to another 13 point app from that pass. The guy that got jumped got screwed but, it happens in every state that has point averaging for group apps, which is most of them.
Point averaging for group apps is whats fair. Game and fish is making $5 every time someone buys point gaurd... its not going anywhere. Neither is point averaging. We could sit and come up with all kinds of crazy scenarios where someone gets screwed but the reality is its not negatively effecting anyone. Think about all the guys out there with just under max points not getting drawn when people with 1 or 2 points are drawing the tag. **** ain't fair sometimes.
 
One app with 5 and another with 21, both draw in the bonus pass with 13, one tag gets surrendered and goes to the next in line, and the guy that had 5 still has a bonus pass tag that would have gone to another 13 point app from that pass. The guy that got jumped got screwed but, it happens in every state that has point averaging for group apps, which is most of them.
In your example, one tag was taken out by the pair.

Now, if the guy with 21 puts in alone, he most definitely gets drawn. If he keeps his tag, that's ONE tag gone from the total. If the guy with 5 also applies alone, he MIGHT just 'jump the line' and get drawn in the random round but likely not. So in total in either scenario it's likely only one permit that acutally gets used.

We could go for weeks coming up with 'what ifs.' The reality is what it is. The system as designed currently allows for what is going on, and EVERYONE has the option to take advantage of it.
 
My point was, "it doesn't affect anyone" is nonsense. Point averaging and jumping up always affects someone.
To your point, many take advantage and I have enough points for non hunting family to keep me in draw tags till I'm too old to hunt. But, I know for every tag I might get by jumping up, I took it from a guy that's been sitting there waiting his turn.
 
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My point was, "it doesn't affect anyone" is nonsense. Point averaging and jumping up always affects someone.
To your point, many take advantage and I have enough points for non hunting family to keep me in draw tags till I'm too old to hunt. But, I know for every tag I might get by jumping up, I took it from a guy that's been sitting there waiting his turn.
Well if a butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon it could eventually create a Typhoon in Japan.

I think if someone a lot smarter than me sat down and figured out at what rate point sharing effected other hunters chances to draw.... that percentage would start with a decimal point.

I don't know why but as a group... we hunters sure do have an inflated sense of justice.
 
Well if a butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon it could eventually create a Typhoon in Japan.

I think if someone a lot smarter than me sat down and figured out at what rate point sharing effected other hunters chances to draw.... that percentage would start with a decimal point.

I don't know why but as a group... we hunters sure do have an inflated sense of justice.
It's kinda humorous really. At some time in the past, the analytics showed that having guys sit out three year meant little. It would have involved a few thousand sitting out every year after the 3rd year. But they found that number was insignificant in regards to the drawing odds. So it makes one wonder how infinestimal the number of "jump the line' permits affects the odds. ;)
 
It's kinda humorous really. At some time in the past, the analytics showed that having guys sit out three year meant little. It would have involved a few thousand sitting out every year after the 3rd year. But they found that number was insignificant in regards to the drawing odds. So it makes one wonder how infinestimal the number of "jump the line' permits affects the odds. ;)
Yeah... I might have to take my socks off to do the math on that one.
 
I’ve got 18 AZ elk points and 4 Iowa points. Interesting....As far as jumping over someone it’s no different than AZG&F changing the draw process and point holders getting knocked backwards 5 or 6 years
 
Another example of why point systems are a bad deal for hunters. Random draw like NM and Idaho are the way to go. At least AZ only gives a small percentage of the tags to max point holders.
 
It doesn't hurt the guy with 15 points because if he didn't draw a tag and had ANY chance to get a tag, he would get the surrendered tag because he's next in line. If he didn't get the surrendered tag... he didn't have a chance at drawing regardless of any point sharing. Our system is 80% random draw, if you have enough points to guarantee a tag, a guy with 5 points piggy backing on an app will not change that. He will bump someone out of the random draw. But guess what!!! The guy that gets bumped will still get a tag when the other tag is surrendered!! It literally hurts nobody

That being said, there's the principle side of the argument which I totally understand.
It doesn't hurt the guy with 15 points because if he didn't draw a tag and had ANY chance to get a tag, he would get the surrendered tag because he's next in line. If he didn't get the surrendered tag... he didn't have a chance at drawing regardless of any point sharing. Our system is 80% random draw, if you have enough points to guarantee a tag, a guy with 5 points piggy backing on an app will not change that. He will bump someone out of the random draw. But guess what!!! The guy that gets bumped will still get a tag when the other tag is surrendered!! It literally hurts nobody

That being said, there's the principle side of the argument which I totally
Point averaging for group apps is whats fair. Game and fish is making $5 every time someone buys point gaurd... its not going anywhere. Neither is point averaging. We could sit and come up with all kinds of crazy scenarios where someone gets screwed but the reality is its not negatively effecting anyone. Think about all the guys out there with just under max points not getting drawn when people with 1 or 2 points are drawing the tag. **** ain't fair sometimes.
Your right we could come up with a lot of scenarios but bottom line you were wrong there are lots of scenarios it hurts people with more points than people that point boost. not gonna argue that nothings fair don’t even really care that they allow it I will take advantage of it if I have opportunity it to say it doesn’t affect or hurt people waiting in line is crazy. The rules are changed all the time and I doubt it will be long before this loophole is closed have seen them close it in other states already, requiring all tags to be surrendered to get points back would end it.
 
Another example of why point systems are a bad deal for hunters. Random draw like NM and Idaho are the way to go. At least AZ only gives a small percentage of the tags to max point holders.
There is no fair system some one is mad no matter what system is used, I prefer point systems but that’s just me but I like to be gaining ground on drawing something as I am not very lucky, that being said I killed my largest deer on an idaho draw tag so I play them all and it’s kinda nice there are different rules to each. Don’t be fooled by some of the random tags though when arizona changed there system and gave random tags for say the hardest hunts like the strip your odds of drawing went from 0% to .001% I am only guessing at the percentage but bottom line you didn’t gain much ground but giving that slim chance raised a lot of money and I am sure kept a lot of people in the game raising even more money.
 
Your right we could come up with a lot of scenarios but bottom line you were wrong there are lots of scenarios it hurts people with more points than people that point boost. not gonna argue that nothings fair don’t even really care that they allow it I will take advantage of it if I have opportunity it to say it doesn’t affect or hurt people waiting in line is crazy. The rules are changed all the time and I doubt it will be long before this loophole is closed have seen them close it in other states already, requiring all tags to be surrendered to get points back would end it.
I'm wrong? Ok... prove it. Next time you miss out on a tag because someone shared points make sure you let us know. Then you say it hurts other guys but you'll take advantage of it? I think that's what I gathered from that mess of a comment. What a super guy... lol. And you're a moderator? Wow
 
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I have a question.

A tag happened to get returned that had been drawn in the bonus pass.
Would it get reissued to the person who was next in line in the bonus round?
Or would it go to the next in line chosen from the random pass draw group?
 
I'm wrong? Ok... prove it. Next time you miss out on a tag because someone shared points make sure you let us know. Then you say it hurts other guys but you'll take advantage of it? I think that's what I gathered from that mess of a comment. What a super guy... lol. And you're a moderator? Wow
It won’t hurt me for years I have max deer points only thing that hurt me was the rule change coming in with random tags but again rules are the rules weather I agree with them or not. And yes if a buddy with more points wanted me to hunt with him I would put in with him and I am sure some one with less points than me would not get a tag. I don’t think that is fair but it’s how they want to run the system, my point was it hurts people with less points and I still agree with that not sure what being a moderator has to do with it we have opinions as well weather you agree with them or not is your choice.
 
I have a question.

A tag happened to get returned that had been drawn in the bonus pass.
Would it get reissued to the person who was next in line in the bonus round?
Or would it go to the next in line chosen from the random pass draw group?
That's a great question, and I don't know the answer for sure. But guessing, I would say it would go to the person with the highest number of points and next lowest number that didn't get a permit.
 
It won’t hurt me for years I have max deer points only thing that hurt me was the rule change coming in with random tags but again rules are the rules weather I agree with them or not. And yes if a buddy with more points wanted me to hunt with him I would put in with him and I am sure some one with less points than me would not get a tag. I don’t think that is fair but it’s how they want to run the system, my point was it hurts people with less points and I still agree with that not sure what being a moderator has to do with it we have opinions as well weather you agree with them or not is your choice.
You'll have to forgive my tone from that last comment I made. I was feeling no pain... ?. My apologies.

If Outdoor Writer is correct in his guess that someone bumped out of the bonus pass by a piggy backer would be next in line.. then there's really no harm done at all. If in fact the surrendered goes to the next in line from the random draw then yes... someone from the bonus pass got hosed.
 
You'll have to forgive my tone from that last comment I made. I was feeling no pain... ?. My apologies.

If Outdoor Writer is correct in his guess that someone bumped out of the bonus pass by a piggy backer would be next in line.. then there's really no harm done at all. If in fact the surrendered goes to the next in line from the random draw then yes... someone from the bonus pass got hosed.
The problem comes up because it will depend on what unit the turned in permit was in. I believe they would issue it only to someone who had that specific hunt # as a 1st or 2nd choice. So it would be the one that fits that, plus the high BPs & low number. But...as I said, I'm just guessing.
 
The problem comes up because it will depend on what unit the turned in permit was in. I believe they would issue it only to someone who had that specific hunt # as a 1st or 2nd choice. So it would be the one that fits that, plus the high BPs & low number. But...as I said, I'm just guessing.
What a big convoluted mess.
 
I drew as the 1st alternate, as a nr, on a tag from a guy who's cc was rejected. It was a unit 1 archery bonus pass tag. #12 if I remember correctly. There was no way I could have drawn that high and made the comment on another forum. Amber sent me a note and we discussed it a few days later after she looked at the reports. As a bonus pass tag, they just went down the list past all the guys that drew till they got to the first guy that hadn't drawn, and had that unit as a 1st or 2nd choice. They did not attempt to reissue to someone who drew a different unit because unit 1 quota was filled. Because the bounced card was a nr, it opened up the nr quota by 1 and allowed me to get it. I suspect they do the same for a returned tag, going down the bonus pass side or 1-2 pass side, depending on where it came from. The tag has to be re issued to the same pass to maintain the quota balance.
 
I drew as the 1st alternate, as a nr, on a tag from a guy who's cc was rejected. It was a unit 1 archery bonus pass tag. #12 if I remember correctly. There was no way I could have drawn that high and made the comment on another forum. Amber sent me a note and we discussed it a few days later after she looked at the reports. As a bonus pass tag, they just went down the list past all the guys that drew till they got to the first guy that hadn't drawn, and had that unit as a 1st or 2nd choice. They did not attempt to reissue to someone who drew a different unit because unit 1 quota was filled. Because the bounced card was a nr, it opened up the nr quota by 1 and allowed me to get it. I suspect they do the same for a returned tag, going down the bonus pass side or 1-2 pass side, depending on where it came from. The tag has to be re issued to the same pass to maintain the quota balance.
That sounds about how I envisioned it would be. That same unit thing could be a bugaboo for lots of folks with many BPs. Thanks for that insight.
 
A person jumped the line. Even if one of the two tags drawn gets turned in and the next person draws the tag what about the person after him who would have drawn if the line cutter didn’t get a tag. It affects the line. 2 people in line would have drawn but instead only one does.
 
It gets convoluted with party averaging; one guy drops down and one guy jumps up. One higher point guy now out of the way but a lower point guy jumped ahead. As mentioned, almost every state does it and as a whole, nobody really worries about it because it was designed to help friends/family. I had the discussion with the person who implemented the point guard and they knew exactly how it would play out but didn't think it would be a big deal. And, it may not be; how many actually pay to jump up?
 
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A person jumped the line. Even if one of the two tags drawn gets turned in and the next person draws the tag what about the person after him who would have drawn if the line cutter didn’t get a tag. It affects the line. 2 people in line would have drawn but instead only one does.
There is no line.
 
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it’s not a wash. Somebody drew who would not have otherwise. 2 tags drawn and one turned in equals ONE tag drawn that would not have. Not a wash ! If it happens 10 times then 20 tags drawn, 10 turned in. 10 tags taken. Not a wash. I don’t understand your reasoning.
 
it’s not a wash. Somebody drew who would not have otherwise. 2 tags drawn and one turned in equals ONE tag drawn that would not have. Not a wash ! If it happens 10 times then 20 tags drawn, 10 turned in. 10 tags taken. Not a wash. I don’t understand your reasoning.
Ok... I get what you're saying. The assumption is that the guy that surrendered the tag wouldn't have applied otherwise. Yeah.. I guess that could be considered jumping in line. But I also don't think it happens that often. Especially not on the premium hunts. I would guess that 99% of the point sharing happens with family and friends on mid level hunts or... someone is applying non-hunters to piggyback. I'm actually cool with that because it's getting game and fish more money. On the premium hunts, it would require the piggy backer to be one or two points out of the bonus pass.
 
I’ll give you two examples of how it hurts first is when the guy with more points doesn’t turn tag in and hunts that’s two tags gone hurting someone with more points than the piggy backer, another scenario is I have max now take a point that takes 6 points I could let several people piggy back my points and then turn my tag in taking several tags from people that had more points than piggy backers. How many people get hurt by this every year I have no idea nor does it affect me with my points I was only trying to say that there are people it hurts and there are people that will benefit from it. I don’t see it hurting me it will probably help me at some point
 
Good discussion. I have no idea how many people take advantage of the rules that are in place and set by G&F. One thing is pretty clear is G&F is not going to change anything that affects their bottom line. They have bills to pay and they even figured out how to make more money by offering point guard. I've always believed if the points were bought and paid for legally then you should be able to do whatever you want with them.

I will admit the point system has ruined the family hunts. Before points family & friends used to all apply together. First choice was dream hunt and 2nd was the traditional stomping grounds unit.

I am holding out for one more premium rifle tag and then after that it is nothing but archery deer hunts and the occasional easy to draw rifle deer hunt. I've had some pretty good hunts in the past and very few have lived up to my expectations.
 
I can certainly agree with everything you said there and bottom line the animals we all want are a limited supply and the amount of people wanting them grows every year. My plan is same one strip tag then something easier to draw. I hope I did not come off in my posts as complaining I was only saying it hurts people with less points but I agree if the points were paid for and it’s legal to do so then you should be able to do what you want with them. I also think too much is put on how many points a hunt takes I have had some good draw hunts and some that did not seem worth points they took and have taken nice animals and had awesome hunts on OTC stuff.
 
There is no fair system some one is mad no matter what system is used, I prefer point systems but that’s just me but I like to be gaining ground on drawing something as I am not very lucky, that being said I killed my largest deer on an idaho draw tag so I play them all and it’s kinda nice there are different rules to each. Don’t be fooled by some of the random tags though when arizona changed there system and gave random tags for say the hardest hunts like the strip your odds of drawing went from 0% to .001% I am only guessing at the percentage but bottom line you didn’t gain much ground but giving that slim chance raised a lot of money and I am sure kept a lot of people in the game raising even more money.

The only system that is fair is random draw. Point systems are like socialism. Point systems work ok for the first few years and many people are fooled into thinking they keep things fair. You have to look at the long term consequences of point systems and socialism to realize they are bad ideas. You have every right to think that point systems are good for you but are they really a good idea for your children?

In units that there are enough tags for 25% of the applicants, point systems can work. Point systems do not work well in difficult to draw places like the strip except for one time for those who got in on the ground floor and have max points.


More and more hunters are starting to realize how bad point systems are for them. Fortunately I believe there is enough resistance in NM and Idaho for either state to change over to a point system. States like AZ and CO would have a difficult time ever switching away from a point system but they do change the rules to the the game occasionally in an attempt to correct some of the problems point systems create.
 
The only system that is fair is random draw. Point systems are like socialism. Point systems work ok for the first few years and many people are fooled into thinking they keep things fair. You have to look at the long term consequences of point systems and socialism to realize they are bad ideas. You have every right to think that point systems are good for you but are they really a good idea for your children?

In units that there are enough tags for 25% of the applicants, point systems can work. Point systems do not work well in difficult to draw places like the strip except for one time for those who got in on the ground floor and have max points.


More and more hunters are starting to realize how bad point systems are for them. Fortunately I believe there is enough resistance in NM and Idaho for either state to change over to a point system. States like AZ and CO would have a difficult time ever switching away from a point system but they do change the rules to the the game occasionally in an attempt to correct some of the problems point systems create.
I tend to agree with pretty much all if this. I don't know that I would compare it to socialism but it doesn't work. Especially if you're banking points for a premium hunt. Points don't mean anything if everyone's got em.
 
The only system that is fair is random draw. Point systems are like socialism. Point systems work ok for the first few years and many people are fooled into thinking they keep things fair. You have to look at the long term consequences of point systems and socialism to realize they are bad ideas. You have every right to think that point systems are good for you but are they really a good idea for your children?

In units that there are enough tags for 25% of the applicants, point systems can work. Point systems do not work well in difficult to draw places like the strip except for one time for those who got in on the ground floor and have max points.


More and more hunters are starting to realize how bad point systems are for them. Fortunately I believe there is enough resistance in NM and Idaho for either state to change over to a point system. States like AZ and CO would have a difficult time ever switching away from a point system but they do change the rules to the the game occasionally in an attempt to correct some of the problems point systems create.
Good thoughts, but I don't agree totally -- at least for AZ with the 20-80% split. As long as folks with NO or a low number of BPs can draw permits in the most difficult draws that exist, the system now in place works. And it happens plenty every year.

The fact some people are adamant about drawing a specific hunt and can't is their self-made purgatory. I know; been there, done that trying to draw a Sept bull hunt for 22 years. ;)
 
Good thoughts, but I don't agree totally -- at least for AZ with the 20-80% split. As long as folks with NO or a low number of BPs can draw permits in the most difficult draws that exist, the system now in place works. And it happens plenty every year.

The fact some people are adamant about drawing a specific hunt and can't is their self-made purgatory. I know; been there, done that trying to draw a Sept bull hunt for 22 years. ;)
I could never wrap my head around waiting that long for a tag. I like to hunt too much to stack points.
 
AZ is better than some states. At least with the 80/20 split it is better than Colorado or Utah. Points can be great for the guy that just wants one premium tag and you get in on the ground floor. The downside to any draw system is that if you increase one persons odds, you have to decrease someone else’s odds. AZ did this a few years ago to nonresidents and changed to a 50 max points/50 random. It made many nonresidents that were close to drawing a tag very upset.
 
I could never wrap my head around waiting that long for a tag. I like to hunt too much to stack points.
I had already killed about a dozen elk in various states but because I usually shoot the first legal one I see, I killed only one I wanted to get mounted. It was a 6x6 in Colorado when I lived & guided up there. I had the antlers sitting outside our cabin, along with a couple other smaller elk & mule deer. We came down to Phx over Thanksgiving to visit our parents. All the antlers were gone when we got back.

After I returned to AZ, I killed my last bull during the Dec. hunt in 22N. It was a broken not-too-large 5x7. It's the only rack I currently own but it's a floor sitter only. It was after that when I started the quest for the trophy bull hunt -- to no avail.

So...with lots of points in hand and no longer hunting at all, I have used them to recoup some of my investment. I also have a passel of pronghorn points that are just sitting there waiting for someone who needs a few. ;)
 
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AZ did this a few years ago to nonresidents and changed to a 50 max points/50 random. It made many nonresidents that were close to drawing a tag very upset.
I'm not quite sure what you mean with the "50 max points/50 random." I can't think of any rule where those numbers are relevant???

dogscratchhead.gif
 
I could never wrap my head around waiting that long for a tag. I like to hunt too much to stack points.
I forgot in my other reply:

Although I wasn't hunting elk in AZ, it doesn't mean I wasn't hunting. Over the years I was building those elk points, I hunted critters in Africa, New Zealand, Mexico and several other states and Canadian provinces. So it wasn't like I had a raving withdrawal fit without hunting in my life. :ROFLMAO:
 
I preferred the ‘old’ BP system AZ used to implement......if you didn’t draw you received another point (computer drawn number) for the next draw......that’s it. No % to max point holders, etc.......everyone was even.....some just had more chances (like buying multiple lotto tickets versus one-you could win with one, but more tickets increase your odds).
 
I think he meant "50%"... I think
Yeah, I think I finally figured it out. He's talking about the 5% of the POSSIBLE total NR permits that go in the bonus pass with the other 5% designated for th 1-2/3-4-5 passes.

Obviously some of the NRs who have been around a while didn't like that rule change. That said, I bet 90% of the NRs who apply in AZ love having at least a slight chance to get a permit. In reality, no different than many residents look at the 20-80% split.
 
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I preferred the ‘old’ BP system AZ used to implement......if you didn’t draw you received another point (computer drawn number) for the next draw......that’s it. No % to max point holders, etc.......everyone was even.....some just had more chances (like buying multiple lotto tickets versus one-you could win with one, but more tickets increase your odds).
You won't get any disagreement from me. Even that system at least gave better odds, regardless of how minimal, to those who consistently applied.
 
As an aside to the topic of this discussion, I would like to complement everyone who were or are taking part. It's refreshing to have a conversation go this long where everyone is able to stick to the actual issue & not start hurling personal insults or calling names.

Kudos to the whole lot of you miscreants. :ROFLMAO:
 
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As an aside to the topic of this doscussion, I would like to complement everyone who were or are taking part. It's refreshing to have a conversation go this long where everyone is able to stick to the actual issue & not start hurling personal insults or calling names.

Kudos to the whole lot of you miscreants. :ROFLMAO:
Tony, you son-of-a... ;)
 
As an aside to the topic of this doscussion, I would like to complement everyone who were or are taking part. It's refreshing to have a conversation go this long where everyone is able to stick to the actual issue & not start hurling personal insults or calling names.

Kudos to the whole lot of you miscreants. :ROFLMAO:
I thought I was "name calling" when I used socialism as a comparison to point systems. There are not any 4 letter words that would be worse than calling someone/something a socialist or a liberal.
 
I thought I was "name calling" when I used socialism as a comparison to point systems. There are not any 4 letter words that would be worse than calling someone/something a socialist or a liberal.
I sure didn't interpret it as name calling. You were merely bitching about the system in place. I was speaking about the partcipants in this thread.

Example: addressing someone that is nothing more than ad hominem.

You really don't have a clue, do you? I think you're all very confused. Read up a bit and then come back if you want to talk with the adults. etc. etc. etc.
 
I didn't take it that way either
I wasn't targeting anyone with my comment or wasn't trying to offend anyone. I guess that is the difference. Just like the best definitional of sexual harassment

"It is only sexual harassment if they don't like it"

You can talk nasty and crude and not offend anyone. You can make a simple comment like "I like your new haircut" and be accused of sexual harassment.
 
The rules are changed all the time and I doubt it will be long before this loophole is closed have seen them close it in other states already, requiring all tags to be surrendered to get points back would end it.
G&F has done nothing to close the loopholes in the 30 years they've had bonus points. What they have done is to keep adding more and more and more ways to exploit it! Letting parents, grandparents, mother in laws, etc. transfer tags to kids gets exploited. Building up points for non-hunters so you can apply with them gets exploited, then G&F came up with point guard so you can now exploit the same points twice! They have no desire to fix any of the exploitation. They get application fees and surrendered tag fees from all of them, more and more every time they are exploited more...
 
G&F has done nothing to close the loopholes in the 30 years they've had bonus points. What they have done is to keep adding more and more and more ways to exploit it! Letting parents, grandparents, mother in laws, etc. transfer tags to kids gets exploited. Building up points for non-hunters so you can apply with them gets exploited, then G&F came up with point guard so you can now exploit the same points twice! They have no desire to fix any of the exploitation. They get application fees and surrendered tag fees from all of them, more and more every time they are exploited more...

100%... Ed F
 

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