Deer numbers

Killcarp2

Active Member
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205
This is probably going to open a can of worms. I am posting both to get some feedback and maybe vent a little. I have been on a number of deer hunts this year in different units throughout the state, and the number and quality of deer overall is concerning. I have talked to a number of people who say the same thing. The question that keeps coming up is "why"? Is it predators, lack of food, too many hunters, or a combination of all of it? You would think with a big die off for whatever reason we would be seeing carcasses, and we aren't seeing any more than usual. Are guys poaching deer? I read some threads today and people seem to comment a lot on how good Nevada is at managing their wildlife. I used to have this opinion but I no longer do. I think that Nevada needs to incorporate a 3 point or better clause, close certain units for a year or two, or do something to get these numbers back up. I think since covid hit a lot more people are hunting and a lot more people are out in the woods. It seems the biologists who do the "counts" need to find a new method or drastically reduce tag numbers. The fact that some of the quotas in the areas I was in this year increased blows my mind. I am planning on attending some wildlife commission meetings this year to speak my mind, and if any of you agree I encourage you to do the same. Hunting in this state is not what it used to be and after seeing what I saw this year something needs to be done.
 
I recently commented that Nevada handles their wildlife better than most.
"Nevada is far and away the best run state for wildlife (not saying much)"..
With that statement, I believe the answers to your questions are yes, yes, yes and yes. Too many horses, too many predators, loss of winter ground, loss of feed, dry conditions, too many tags given out for the current condition of deer herds. Can you imagine if Nevada residents could buy a tag (or two) every year and hunt where ever they wanted over the counter? Then add in the Non resident OTC quota on top of that? There would be nothing left there, similar to Idaho's situation. We all will have to face facts sooner or later..quotas will have to be limited greatly to allow this resource to get back to plentiful levels, and that's provided there is feed to support greater numbers of animals.
 
Range degradation from too many feral horses is a major issue in large portions of NV, especially units with limited water, which is most. Unfortunately the feral horse population is managed by the feds and protected by federal law, not the state.

The way deer seasons run has an impact on genetics as well. Hunters are very good at shooting the biggest little buck they can find. Most of the deer harvested are pre-rut. You do this for years and you start to have genetic deterioration in regards to antler characteristics.
This concept has been proven in captive deer herds.
 
If hunters and states wanted to focus on trophy quality rather than opportunity, states could implemented a maximum size limit - essentially doing management hunts to target the smallest deer. Once genetics improve you have to maintain the genetics. It would be better to harvest the majority of deer post rut or implement a minimum size limit of managing for quality.

Alternatively you could reduce the amount of overall tags given and move the rifle hunt until after the rut is over. NV does this with their elk hunts and has been able to maintain good genetics for a while now, but they started with good genetics. Once gone, this won’t work anymore.
 
A 3 point or better would lead to deer being shot and left.

Reduce horse populations, lower tag quota, and reduce predators. Those three would have huge impacts of deer herds.
And here is another that will evoke emotions, junior hunters need to pick their weapon, juniors should not be allowed to hunt every weapon season. There are 16 and 17 yr olds that shoot better than adults, you are essentially giving them piw tags.
 
For quick and easy, they should go to one 2 week long deer season and leave it at that for a couple years and get serious about their counts. Hunt with whatever weapon thrills you and realize this is for the greater good of the resource, not your individual wants. Or maybe do a 2 week archery, 2 week muzzy and 2 week rifle season and call that enough. Timeframes should be adjusted to make sense in not killing all the deer in the rifle season (IE no rut rifle hunt)..just spitballing here, don't shoot the messenger!
 
"junior hunters need to pick their weapon, juniors should not be allowed to hunt every weapon season."
Great point Hevi, that is something that bugs me every year although I try to be happy for the young-uns..they really won't know the reality of hunting for big bucks if they have every single opportunity to get one handed to them. That is a great way for unethical hunters to exploit the tag their junior gets (not saying every father/mother does this, just living in reality).
 
I will give kudos to the Idaho Fish and Game, they actually listened to their customers this past season..they took many a suggestion, and based off those chose to cut WAY back on doe hunts and reduced the youth any deer hunts to accomodate decreasing mule deer herds. Time will tell if the cuts are effective, but at least they are listening and acting on what the hunters have to say. Nevada (Tony Wasley?) could take a few tips from that maybe?
 
Killcarp, Calbuck, Iowacity and Hevishot-Each of you have made valid and truthful statements about our Nevada deer problem. I have been on this website for over a decade and very seldom post or reply however, I check the posts almost every day and enjoy reading about our mule deer problems and issues here out west. I will add more to this tomorrow, Thursday of Friday so I can better explain my thoughts along with yours! If I were to try and explain how I feel about what has happened after reading and a few beers--I might get locked up! Fatrooster (my former Spring Creek neighbor) and I have had this conversation many times over the years as well. It's all about damn MONEY and I will expand when I am feeling more politically correct!
 
PC is what's wrong with this country..spill it man! Those who can't take it will probably report you but I'll be truthful no matter what! As long as you submit your opinion without using expletives, how can anyone censor you? Its a free country after all!
 
A 3 point or better would lead to deer being shot and left.

Reduce horse populations, lower tag quota, and reduce predators. Those three would have huge impacts of deer herds.
And here is another that will evoke emotions, junior hunters need to pick their weapon, juniors should not be allowed to hunt every weapon season. There are 16 and 17 yr olds that shoot better than adults, you are essentially giving them piw tags.
How many youth can actually hunt each season though? Let's be honest here......

Our muzzleloader season isn't Utah's. We don't get scopes which doubles the effective range easily.
 
Honesty is telling it like you see it with your own eyes. I am not blind to the countless "proud dad" photos posted via various internet means touting their youth scores..lets face it, many of these kids have been put on some of the best deer/elk/antelope because their dads/grandpas/whoever did some amazing work in helping them. But lets also face the fact that many of these hunts are STRICTLY dad/grandpa/whoever and have little to do with the youth. This is a fine line, as we need to recruit young people to the conservation side of hunting. But how do you police this? Is this a dads dream come true where they can hunt every season then have their "little" pull the trigger? Or do the kids really learn to appreciate big game hunting as it really is for adults? I feel like it's probably mostly dads hunting. Thats just my take. I may be completely off base, but I'm betting not by far..
 
A 3 point or better would lead to deer being shot and left.

Reduce horse populations, lower tag quota, and reduce predators. Those three would have huge impacts of deer herds.
And here is another that will evoke emotions, junior hunters need to pick their weapon, juniors should not be allowed to hunt every weapon season. There are 16 and 17 yr olds that shoot better than adults, you are essentially giving them piw tags.
I'm a youth hunter myself, I have my last youth tag this year as I turn 18 here in a few months, I actually completely agree with you.. And as far as three weapon types with three different seasons does not do good to the deer herds... I feel that when you draw the tag you should have the option to choose one of the 3 weapon types and hunt only that season, and mainly the reason I agree with your statement (other then the deer herds) is because some parents these days will only be in the hunt for themselves and not for there kids.. passing on buck after buck after buck until that one that THEY say there kid can shoot shows up, and bam. my dad barely hunted growing up and he just got back into it recently, so all of my hunts the last 5 or 6 years have been pretty much self taught, I don't hunt antler's but I also don't shoot young deer... I put in my best effort to find mature animal's regardless of the tag I have, and I enjoy the chase... If I have a shot at a mature animal regardless of his rack
size.. I'm shooting, the only exception is if I have a "trophy tag" and have been watching big bucks prior to the hunt in scouting, then I will hold out because I know what's in the area, and what the area has produced in the past.
 
A coyote bounty.. that could also help maybe, Utah has had success with it, this last hunting trip out I witnessed a single coyote take down a fawn... It was an archery hunt And I did not have a rifle with me or I would have blasted that thing... It's sad the state of our deer herds.. 36% ALW Success last year statewide, if this years is lower as i suspect it will be... ohh boy.
 
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I can say I am a dad who takes both my boys hunting. My oldest drew his first tag last year and my youngest did this year. I let them choose their units, pass or shoot, and I have never nor will I ever pull the trigger for their tag. My youngest shot his buck with a muzzle loader this year. Not a huge buck but he worked hard for it and at no point did I tell him that we should have looked for a bigger one. My oldest killed his with a rifle last year. It was in a unit I had never stepped foot in that he chose. He did hunt with a bow and missed a few bucks before he killed one with his rifle. I agree that all of what Ndow does is money driven. I would prefer they charge more for tags rather than issuing more of them. Although I do not want to see Nevada turn into a state that prevents hard working blue collar guys from being able to hunt. It’s already turned into a monopoly with price tags put on animals. Not sure the solution but I know they are issuing way too many tags.
 
I can say I am a dad who takes both my boys hunting. My oldest drew his first tag last year and my youngest did this year. I let them choose their units, pass or shoot, and I have never nor will I ever pull the trigger for their tag. My youngest shot his buck with a muzzle loader this year. Not a huge buck but he worked hard for it and at no point did I tell him that we should have looked for a bigger one. My oldest killed his with a rifle last year. It was in a unit I had never stepped foot in that he chose. He did hunt with a bow and missed a few bucks before he killed one with his rifle. I agree that all of what Ndow does is money driven. I would prefer they charge more for tags rather than issuing more of them. Although I do not want to see Nevada turn into a state that prevents hard working blue collar guys from being able to hunt. It’s already turned into a monopoly with price tags put on animals. Not sure the solution but I know they are issuing way too many tags.
Yep, tags is the main issue I think, It really just comes to 3 things I think, too many tags as you said, predators, and horse's... The land can't support wildlife if there's no feed on that land for that wildlife to eat, same deal with habitat loss, There's some springs I know of that I visit often that have been destroyed by feral horses. Once green with lush grasses, now barren with horse crap everywhere.. and mostly dry with water only on good years. The tags ultimately will Probably be the one main factor that determines whether or not the herds revive. NDOW is getting greedy..
 
As stated one of the biggest issues in my own personal opinion (and that's all it is) is the number of tags allocated by NDOW and their extremely flawed statistical analysis for coming up with their quotas. The issues of horses, predators, and drought all play a big part too but when all of those things are affecting the deer herd why is NDOW raising tags and continuing to issue doe tags? As we're all aware it's a money game but then raise the tag price. Shoot I'd almost like to see the FCFS system go to an open bidding format. Not that I'd necessarily partake but it would sure be amusing to watch some poor sucker bid upwards of $10k on an area 10 doe tag.

Back to the point, myself and a small group of others have fought tooth and nail for reduced quotas in certain areas at every quota meeting for Elko County going on the past six or seven years. Even with the CAB on our side the Board turns around and goes with whatever the biologist recommends. A biologist mind you that openly admits NDOW hasn't performed an actual herd count in a certain area for upwards of fifteen years yet the tags keep getting increased. It's gotten to the point that NDOW has single handedly wiped out the mature age class over the last three years. Their biggest scapegoat is using fires as an excuse. Mind you in this particular area there have been two large fires the last fifteen years but both times the deer herd (particularly the mature bucks) faired just fine and in some portions of the unit it's actually helped the deer habitat. NDOW's solution though was to increase the deer tags the year after the fire citing that they were concerned with too many deer on the winter range. It wasn't doe tags mind you just buck tags.

I hate to joke but our best bet as deer fanatics is that the moose continue to move in so NDOW can focus on mismanaging that resource and in the meantime forget about the deer like they did with the elk 20 years ago. While it may be a frustrating endeavor I'd strongly urge all of you to attend the quota meetings this upcoming spring and voice your opinions. If we could get even a hundred people in the room putting some heat on NDOW it might help when they take their recommendations to the Board.
 
Honesty is telling it like you see it with your own eyes. I am not blind to the countless "proud dad" photos posted via various internet means touting their youth scores..lets face it, many of these kids have been put on some of the best deer/elk/antelope because their dads/grandpas/whoever did some amazing work in helping them. But lets also face the fact that many of these hunts are STRICTLY dad/grandpa/whoever and have little to do with the youth. This is a fine line, as we need to recruit young people to the conservation side of hunting. But how do you police this? Is this a dads dream come true where they can hunt every season then have their "little" pull the trigger? Or do the kids really learn to appreciate big game hunting as it really is for adults? I feel like it's probably mostly dads hunting. Thats just my take. I may be completely off base, but I'm betting not by far..
You are talking a very small percentage of people doing this. Let's be realistic. There will always be those "people" even with different seasons. I think attacking the youth tags is the LEAST of the problems we have right now. This comes from someone who's oldest shot a deer and said it wasn't for him 9 years ago and my other one isn't old enough so I have no skin in the game on this.

But really..... You think youth tags are such a problem? There are far more issues than youth tags. I would bet the poaching problem is far worse than anyone truly believes.............

There is not enough feed for the deer/cows/horses in many of the areas along with drought. Then you have wayyyyyy too many tags being given out (remember the 1000 doe tags on 2nd draw in area 10 maybe 4-5 years ago? why? other than money grab).

You also have many more people scouting further than ever and more throughout the year which means more big deer have been killed over the last 10 years. Back when our grandpas were hunting, they didn't have the luxury of watching every water hole all year to find the big buck then send out teams of people to watch them. Plus the fact that the scopes nowadays allow people to see things our grandparents could've never seen to even attempt to chase after.

Lots of things contribute to the issue we have. But to even bring youth tags into the equation as a substantial part of the problem? Come on now.....
 
You are talking a very small percentage of people doing this. Let's be realistic. There will always be those "people" even with different seasons. I think attacking the youth tags is the LEAST of the problems we have right now. This comes from someone who's oldest shot a deer and said it wasn't for him 9 years ago and my other one isn't old enough so I have no skin in the game on this.

But really..... You think youth tags are such a problem? There are far more issues than youth tags. I would bet the poaching problem is far worse than anyone truly believes.............

There is not enough feed for the deer/cows/horses in many of the areas along with drought. Then you have wayyyyyy too many tags being given out (remember the 1000 doe tags on 2nd draw in area 10 maybe 4-5 years ago? why? other than money grab).

You also have many more people scouting further than ever and more throughout the year which means more big deer have been killed over the last 10 years. Back when our grandpas were hunting, they didn't have the luxury of watching every water hole all year to find the big buck then send out teams of people to watch them. Plus the fact that the scopes nowadays allow people to see things our grandparents could've never seen to even attempt to chase after.

Lots of things contribute to the issue we have. But to even bring youth tags into the equation as a substantial part of the problem? Come on now.....
Youth tag holders essentially get a free pass to hunt every season. No other state in the country does this that I'm aware of. Sorry if my opinion and that of some others bugs you, but I laid out many reasons for the decline, of which 'I' believe the liberal youth seasons are one. When you look at the big picture, you can't pick and choose. You have to look at THE WHOLE PICTURE. You may not agree and that's ok.
 
Yep, Nevada resident youth get a special opportunity here to enjoy hunts with dad's, grandpas, and friends. I have been on dozens of these hunts and helped some kiddos kill some really nice bucks. You are correct that it is totally fun for everyone and I'll do everything I can to keep the program just as it is with the exception of shooting does. I've never been on a junior hunt where we didn't have the opportunity at several bucks. No need to shoot our baby-makers.------SS
 
Over selling of tags, killing 600 does in area 10 one year, then area 7 next year, area 6 the next year, then start all over really hurts. Having LIBERALS running our wildlife commission is a HUGE mistake.
Personally I would be ok with shutting down deer season for three years. Thats a drastic measure but I read somewhere that Colorado did that in the 90's and when they reopened the deer season they had the best population and the most Boone and Crockett entries.
Fatrooster
 
I agree with shutting it down, even if the did a few units at a time. Areas like 13, 22, and 6. Close them for a year leave the majority open but reduce tags, the following year close a few other ones and so on. Probably won’t ever happen but I plan on showing up to some commission meetings and voicing my opinion.
 
Rooster-I agree with your thoughts as well as many other comments on this thread. Not only would I be willing to go along with the 3 years deer season shut down but would be willing to pay the regular application fees during that time frame. I am sure many others would be willing to do the same. I responded to this thread Tuesday evening while you were out glassing with my new 115mm lens. Will ya please send the dang thing back to me as it will do you no good-there are no deer for you to see in that area LOL!!! There are great points all through this thread but I just don't see any hope for the better. Not trying to be a downer but just going by what I have seen here in my home state for a very long time and just as you mentioned about our wildlife commission. As I stated when I previously posted-It's all about the damn MONEY!! Our state is NOT going to give up the revenue. Hell, we sell tags in areas that barely have animals to people that just don't know any better. Along with all of the legitimate reasons posted above about our mule deer decline- how about the emergency depredation doe hunts? They claim it's because there isn't enough food in this particular area and they will die off during the winter. Is this true or just revenue?? In other states I listen to hunters stating long range muzzleloaders are a culprit in the decline. Here in Nevada as well as Colorado, scopes are not legal to use on muzzleloaders. Are scopes a bad idea or more ethical for the deer? I can't even come close to remembering how many people over the last 20 years have told me they have shot multiple deer during the iron sight only muzzleloader seasons and couldn't recover wounded deer and just kept going until they got one on the ground. Not that we all haven't missed with a scope at one time or another but which is the better? I really don't know either but if it saves even 20 bucks a year over 10 years-200 bucks makes a huge difference as long as we aren't killing off all of the doe's. Most Nevada hunters are aware THEY wanted to start drilling in the Ruby Mountains around the Smith Creek area which is very close to Harrison Pass. This is a major winter deer herd range along with other areas within our state. THEY-stands for the MONEY and THEY are politicians, lawyers and lobbyists and once there are no deer left in this and other areas-THEY can drill, put up solar panels and do whatever THEY want to do and THEY almost always win because of -yes, MONEY and lots of it!! OK, rant over and that's how I see things but, I sure do love my home state of Nevada and would love to see things change for the better. My wife, myself and 3 daughters have had a lot of great moments here and have met some really incredible people throughout the west. Hope our grandkids get the same opportunity.
 
I really enjoy all the comments on this topic because it’s a huge issue. I’m out in the hills more than anyone I know and it’s bad. I moved to Spring Creek from Spanish Springs 3 years ago so I’m very familiar with the northwest side of the state as well as the northeast. I had an early rifle tag in 6 in 2010 and 2011. There were 600 early tags at that point give or take. In 2012 they tripled it. How can you be that far off with your counts? We are now seeing what happens. Area 7 had an amazing deer heard the last few years and what happened? They almost doubled the tags. I’ve already seen a major decline in mature deer. We are all on the same side and let’s just agree that it’s bad and we need to do something ASAP!!!
 

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I've posted this several times in the Utah forum so might as well start in Nevada. Has there been any wildfires in Nevada the past 10 years? How frequent are your wildfires? How much of your mule deer country is infested with cheatgrass?

 
I've posted this several times in the Utah forum so might as well start in Nevada. Has there been any wildfires in Nevada the past 10 years? How frequent are your wildfires? How much of your mule deer country is infested with cheatgrass?

From what I've seen I don't think fires are the problem. Fires haven't really had an impact on most units showing declines. Pretty sure predators, horses, drought, and too many tags is the bulk of the problem.
Personally, I think trail cams should be permabanned. Technology is making hunters MUCH more successful than decades ago. This being in the form of optics, trail cams, google earth/ONX, social media, hunting gear on every level, etc... Social media, in terms of education, is making new and current hunters way more proficient.
Hell, I'm all for a limit on the power of a rifle scope and even a limit on shooting distances allowed, but that's a whole different can of worms for debate. With $2000 glass and 20x scopes, a lot of guys out there aren't hunting, they're assassinating deer.
 
"From what I've seen I don't think fires are the problem. Fires haven't really had an impact on most units showing declines." Holy smokes!

I disagree completely that wildfires aren't a serious problem in Utah and Nevada! I can't even see Nevada through all the red in the map below. In 2016, a little over 265,000 acres statewide in Nevada burned from wildfires. In 2017, around 1.3 million acres burned, and in 2018, a little over a million acres burned, according to the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho. Wildfires continued in 2019-2021.

In 2018 in Utah there were 1,327 wildfires with $13.4 million in estimated damages. Just think if that $13.4 million was spent on wildfire mitigation, cheatgrass control, and wildlife habitat improvement projects instead of devastating wildfires!

It's just a matter of time when dense cheatgrass stands will likely catch fire! In the meantime, cheatgrass will continue to rob the life out of shrub and other native browse species that mule deer depend upon. There are tools available that actually decrease fire-fuel levels and frequency/intensity of wildfires that promote long-lasting positive impacts to mule deer and other wildlife habitat.

IMG_3137.jpg


utah map fires.jpg
 
FDD and Jims-you both have great points! As far as cheat grass, we had a ton of it on our Spring Creek place and it seems to be in most areas of Nevada that I have seen anyway. Even down here in S. Nevada it is growing around our mountain areas and always has as far as I can remember. Jims is correct about the fires. We have had them lately from Jarbidge, Harrison Pass, area 12 and all the way here in S. Nevada and all through Nevada. Fires, horses, population increase, predators, too many tags, poachers, drought and the list continues. What can we do about it at this point-I really don't have a good answer. Technology and hunting are a tough one as well. As I have posted above, I can't even remember how many conversations I have had with muzzleloader hunters over the years that have shot multiple deer and some elk, that wounded their animals and could not find them and then just continued until they got one down. So, if a guy or gal takes an animal from 500 yards plus with one shot and only takes one animal down as compared to another 2,3,4 or 5 then which is the lesser evil? Yah, we can all miss at those long ranges as well. That's a tough argument for sure. My opinion on trail cameras is-we should not have them out west. Our private land in Oklahoma we once had-have as many as you want. However, if we let them take cameras away, then what next? So, I have a zero tolerance for anything taken away from hunters because of what will get eventually taken away. Same with our guns, if we let them take away our assault rifles, then what next? Being former law enforcement, I don't feel anyone needs more than a shotgun or a handgun for home protection. However, I will fight to keep assault rifles even though we had 3 daughters at the October 1st, 2017, country concert (front row-center stage) shooting on the strip. And all 3 girls wound up feeling the same. Glad my 3 girls aren't lay down and die liberals. Now, these thoughts and values do differ from state to state, and Nevada is now pretty much run by liberals soaking up a paycheck, so if your offended, we do not apologize.
 
I'm with you on not taking anything away. In fact, I hate laws and regulations of most types. I wouldn't want to limit what people can own just what they can use in the field and even then I'm hesitant. I think all the external factors have more of a detrimental impact on deer than proficient hunters anyway.
I AM in favor of banning trail cams in Nevada though. The mountain ranges are pretty small and some have very limited water which gives the guys with a camera a great advantage. Plus it takes the mystery away of "what's out there". Why not just GPS tag every animal in existence so we can track them on ONX lol? I would never steal or damage someone's trail cam I found in the field, but they might have a blank SD card or have tape over the lens when they come back to it. Haha, jk...or am I?
 

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