Do we chastise this guy too?

I guess we should? He should have let him grow? congratulations to that man. If your happy when you walk up on an animal that you harvested then don’t let anyone take you down. Stud buck glad he got what he worked hard for.
 
They jumped him several times before they finally got him. If you jump a mature Blacktail he'll come back within a couple days. If you jump him twice and don't get him he will move to parts unknown.

Nice buck though. :)
 
What should we criticize him for.? Being a guide.? Hunting private land.? Taking so long to seal the deal on his deer.? Marrying into a 'famous deer hunting family'.?

If I'm going to criticize, this is it... Its too bad he killed that amazing buck when his rack and cape are at their ugliest... Burn!
 
yotebuster17 said:
I just wouldn’t wanna be hunting on the ranch he guides on after he kills the biggest one off it every year ??‍♂️
Click to expand...

If I had to wager I’d guess this is the biggest buck killed on that property this year. But he doesn’t hunt it every year. In fact, I doubt he’s ever had a tag on it before this year.

What are you supposed to do when you have a tag, eat it?
 
Vanilla said:
If I had to wager I’d guess this is the biggest buck killed on that property this year. But he doesn’t hunt it every year. In fact, I doubt he’s ever had a tag on it before this year.

What are you supposed to do when you have a tag, eat it?
Click to expand...
yes....sad situation we put guides in.....
 
Homer said:
yes....sad situation we put guides in.....
Click to expand...

I don’t even know what this means. I have nothing against guides, especially ones that guide exclusively on private ground. Just follow the rules like I expect everyone else to, and we’re good! If you have a tag, go hunt and enjoy it. Same I would say for a non-guide. I like to see other hunters have success and enjoy themselves.
 
Vanilla said:
I don’t even know what this means. I have nothing against guides, especially ones that guide exclusively on private ground. Just follow the rules like I expect everyone else to, and we’re good! If you have a tag, go hunt and enjoy it. Same I would say for a non-guide. I like to see other hunters have success and enjoy themselves.
Click to expand...
I've guided that ranch many times, it's pretty incredible.
Having said that....an employee definitely has an advantage.
Congratulations to him, fantastic buck.
 
Vanilla said:
If I had to wager I’d guess this is the biggest buck killed on that property this year. But he doesn’t hunt it every year. In fact, I doubt he’s ever had a tag on it before this year.

What are you supposed to do when you have a tag, eat it?
Click to expand...
If it’s a CWMU then they likely get far vouchers then they sell. So I’m sure he has the ability to get a tag every year if there’s something worthy of a YouTube hero on there.
 
He Might Have The Ability!

But Does He Have Enough Money?

He Might?

I'm not Saying He Doesn't!

But The Most Money Will Garner The Tags!
 
yotebuster17 said:
If it’s a CWMU then they likely get far vouchers then they sell. So I’m sure he has the ability to get a tag every year if there’s something worthy of a YouTube hero on there.
Click to expand...

It is a CWMU. This is Deseret Land and Livestock, it’s no big secret. And they do get many tags to sell. A bunch, every year. It’s a 200,000+ acre property. It may be our largest CWMU in the entire state?

That doesn’t mean this person hunts it every year for himself. I’m not certain, but pretty confident he’s never hunted that property on his own tag before this year. Again, if he gets the tag, is he supposed to just frame it and put it on the wall? Eat it? Fold it up and carry it around in his wallet for the rest of his life as a keepsake? Or should he go hunt?
 
Vanilla said:
It is a CWMU. This is Deseret Land and Livestock, it’s no big secret. And they do get many tags to sell. A bunch, every year. It’s a 200,000+ acre property. It may be our largest CWMU in the entire state?

That doesn’t mean this person hunts it every year for himself. I’m not certain, but pretty confident he’s never hunted that property on his own tag before this year. Again, if he gets the tag, is he supposed to just frame it and put it on the wall? Eat it? Fold it up and carry it around in his wallet for the rest of his life as a keepsake? Or should he go hunt?
Click to expand...
He hunts, and he takes full advantage of his resources which are many.
 
Just because it's a great hunting property, doesn't mean a Guide shouldn't be able to get their hunt on too. Real nice buck with a bow
 
Good on the dude (y)

Sounds like he’s at the same level of the organization as the guy Shockey made watch his moose all summer. ?
 
heywouldya said:
Lots of jealousy on here. That's a heck of a buck
Click to expand...
I don’t believe there’s jealousy on this buck at all. I believe DW (original poster) was trying to point out that there’s no difference between this guide taking a beautiful animal and Jim Shockey taking a beautiful animal…..yet the responses are much different between the two threads. Ah, the forked tongues are plentiful these days. ?
 
BOHNTR said:
I don’t believe there’s jealousy on this buck at all. I believe DW (original poster) was trying to point out that there’s no difference between this guide taking a beautiful animal and Jim Shockey taking a beautiful animal…..yet the responses are much different between the two threads. Ah, the forked tongues are plentiful these days. ?
Click to expand...


Bingo! And I'll tip my curved brim hat to both of em on great animals!
 
Ethics polive once again. A guide for a ranch drudging up this buck while scouting the ranch for clients. Glad I don't do guided hunts as this makes me wonder about operation. Hella buck no doubt but what he did was withhold from those he professionally serves. Greedy and unethical IMO. Same with Shockey.

FWIW I had a similar conversation with a local outfitter earlier this year and they do not allow their guides to hunt the area even after the season closes for the sake of their clients and reputation. They don't want a guide snowballing a hunter as one could argue these Drurey boys did.
 
BOHNTR said:
I don’t believe there’s jealousy on this buck at all. I believe DW (original poster) was trying to point out that there’s no difference between this guide taking a beautiful animal and Jim Shockey taking a beautiful animal…..yet the responses are much different between the two threads. Ah, the forked tongues are plentiful these days. ?
Click to expand...
Except Shockey put out a scathing expose on NR hunters and how they should just pay for their hunts they didn't get and be happy about it. Not even close to the same but hey whatever.
Did this guide say anything about deadbeat hunters?
 
wytex said:
Except Shockey put out a scathing expose on NR hunters and how they should just pay for their hunts they didn't get and be happy about it. Not even close to the same but hey whatever.
Did this guide say anything about deadbeat hunters?
Click to expand...


2 different issues, 2 different threads.
 
Could we agree that it is the same in the outfitting and guiding business, as it is in all businesses, including businesses in the medical and legal businesses which I used to think were above the “buyer beware” concept. In those days I was young, naive, and idealistic. I’ve lived long enough to know better. Expect that you have a responsibility to know what your buying and know the seller. It’s a fact and function of the “free” enterprise system. It’s part of the beauty of the system, but it assumes an individual’s need to take responsibility to know what your purchasing and therefore supporting. I certainly wouldn’t care to live in a world where my ability to make my own decisions regarding what kind services I want to purchase, as opposed a “one size fits all”. If I’m going to demand I get the same service, the same product, the advantages and the same benefits from ever vendor, every manufacturer, ever attorney, every doctor, and every outfitter/guide....... that’s a life style I’m not interested in.

Hell, I’m still pissed of that I’m breaking a law if I chose to leave my seat belt unbuckled.
 
Last edited:
DW said:
2 different issues, 2 different threads.
Click to expand...
It’s really just one -character.

That said, the two circumstances seem a little different to me. One sounds like a guy drew a tag and his ”boss” let him hunt the property.

The other was the boss taking a tag out of the cash register for himself. Clearly his right to do.

In either case, if I paid to hunt the concession I might be a little chapped. Otherwise it seems like none of my business as I’m not in the market for an outfitter.
 
Last edited:
Bluehair said:
It’s really just one -character.

That said, the two circumstances seem a little different to me. One sounds like a guy drew a tag and his ”boss” let him hunt the property.
Click to expand...


I can kinda see your point. But in the end, both situations "took animals away from those respective business paying clients". Either by the owner, or with the blessing of the owner.
 
Seems like customers using luxury and decency services these days feel like being entitled is an inherent right...
 
BOHNTR said:
I don’t believe there’s jealousy on this buck at all. I believe DW (original poster) was trying to point out that there’s no difference between this guide taking a beautiful animal and Jim Shockey taking a beautiful animal…..yet the responses are much different between the two threads. Ah, the forked tongues are plentiful these days. ?
Click to expand...


Couple things of clarity.

Deseret Land and Livestock. Owned by the Mormon Church. Covers a pretty big swath of N Utah.

Yes it's a CWMU. No it's not high fence.

And NO, DW, this guide didn't publically call for screwing all of his customers in the name of "Covid"

No, he's nowhere near the owner, or the only guide, so it's a little different than Jim Shockey, killing the biggest moose on Jim Shockey hunting lease, for Jim Shockey Outfitters.

They do have some real nice critters, this morning my boy and I saw a real nice 5x6 on their ground above Lost Creek.

They do, however buy elk to introduce genetics into their herds.

And, there are rumors about them helicopter herding back across their fences.

I hate him for being part of a "famous" hunting family, but only because someone uses, or allows that term to be used.
 
You're
hossblur said:
Couple things of clarity.

Deseret Land and Livestock. Owned by the Mormon Church. Covers a pretty big swath of N Utah.

Yes it's a CWMU. No it's not high fence.

And NO, DW, this guide didn't publically call for screwing all of his customers in the name of "Covid"

No, he's nowhere near the owner, or the only guide, so it's a little different than Jim Shockey, killing the biggest moose on Jim Shockey hunting lease, for Jim Shockey Outfitters.
Click to expand...


That sounds an awful lot like "Russian collusion" hossy? And we covered that topic on a different thread.

Here it is if you'd like to revisit it.

Jim Shockey, crying? Whining? Or weaseling? | General Hunting

As a small buisness owner all of what he starts with is true across the board, startup, maintenance, etc, of small buisness. The rest, is BULL*$&@. His buisness model was to live on money he hadn't earned yet, and now wants his customers to either eat it, or pay 40% more, "to keep the future...
www.monstermuleys.info www.monstermuleys.info
 
Last edited:
I didn’t see what the issue with Shockey was outside of people just not liking him. Whether those folks are right or wrong for disliking him, I don’t really care, that’s their prerogative. I don’t see anything wrong with Shockey shooting that incredible moose.

And I definitely don’t see an issue with a guy getting a tag, however he procured it, and hunting that tag. If people close to it don’t like it, I’ll let them deal with that. It has nothing to do with me so I’m not going to get all hyped up over it. Guy had a tag to hunt and killed an awesome buck on said tag. I say good on him!
 
Vanilla said:
I didn’t see what the issue with Shockey was outside of people just not liking him. Whether those folks are right or wrong for disliking him, I don’t really care, that’s their prerogative. I don’t see anything wrong with Shockey shooting that incredible moose.

And I definitely don’t see an issue with a guy getting a tag, however he procured it, and hunting that tag. If people close to it don’t like it, I’ll let them deal with that. It has nothing to do with me so I’m not going to get all hyped up over it. Guy had a tag to hunt and killed an awesome buck on said tag. I say good on him!
Click to expand...


Shockey showed himself to be an ass with that piece on screwing customers. Then followed it up, after all the crying about being broke, and how bad Covid is for guys like him.

Don't care much about the moose shooting, just the douche shooter.

Be about the same as seeing Wade Lemons huge bighorn he shot.

The a-hole holding the gun, outweighs the cool animal
 
hossblur said:
Couple things of clarity.

Deseret Land and Livestock. Owned by the Mormon Church. Covers a pretty big swath of N Utah.

Yes it's a CWMU. No it's not high fence.

And NO, DW, this guide didn't publically call for screwing all of his customers in the name of "Covid"

No, he's nowhere near the owner, or the only guide, so it's a little different than Jim Shockey, killing the biggest moose on Jim Shockey hunting lease, for Jim Shockey Outfitters.

They do have some real nice critters, this morning my boy and I saw a real nice 5x6 on their ground above Lost Creek.

They do, however buy elk to introduce genetics into their herds.

And, there are rumors about them helicopter herding back across their fences.
Click to expand...
Rumors My Ass!:D
CopterSlam.jpg


CopterSlam.jpg




hossblur said:
I hate him for being part of a "famous" hunting family, but only because someone uses, or allows that term to be used.
Click to expand...
 
I was just wondering if the church still owned it, did Les Schwab lease it for a few years ? I thought I’d heard something of that
 
I get what you're saying now DW... the reference to Shockey made it clear...

This is not even close to the same thing as Shockey's moose. For it to be the same, this guide would have to have taken his clients' deposits, then Deseret closed its property, then he refused to refund them money... and after all that, he goes out on the same property and kills what is likely the biggest deer on the property, and post it on the internet for all those clients to see... that is close to what Jim did.
 
BrowningRage said:
I get what you're saying now DW... the reference to Shockey made it clear...

This is not even close to the same thing as Shockey's moose. For it to be the same, this guide would have to have taken his clients' deposits, then Deseret closed its property, then he refused to refund them money... and after all that, he goes out on the same property and kills what is likely the biggest deer on the property, and post it on the internet for all those clients to see... that is close to what Jim did.
Click to expand...


But Shockey was blasted for simply shooting the moose. "He's a guide shooting moose out from under his clients". Looked to me like no one was coming due to covid, that bull may not have made the winter. This buck looks like early season archery, were there no more clients coming that season? Outrage in either case is silly to me, but selective outrage due to Shockey writing an article that hurt some feelers (have yet to see evidence his company "stiffed" anyone) is hypocritical.
 
DW said:
But Shockey was blasted for simply shooting the moose. "He's a guide shooting moose out from under his clients". Looked to me like no one was coming due to covid, that bull may not have made the winter. This buck looks like early season archery, were there no more clients coming that season? Outrage in either case is silly to me, but selective outrage due to Shockey writing an article that hurt some feelers (have yet to see evidence his company "stiffed" anyone) is hypocritical.
Click to expand...

Im a little shocked your a Shockey fanboy. Do you have the t shirt, hat, and secret decoder ring?

Do you draw moose tags in Canada?

You draw deer tags in Utah.

Article seems to point out he drew it.

HES A GUIDE.

SHOCKEY IS AN OUTFITTER.

A guide, takes clients WHO PAID THE OUTFITTER.

Shockey IS THE OWNER.

This kid, IS NOT THE OWNER.


The CWMU system forces the CWMU operator (THE OUTFITTER) to offer a percentage of tags via the draw.

This tag WAS NOT a tag taken from a paying client. It was NEVER for sale to begin with.


I know you're trying to make some point, but A CANADIAN OUTFITTER, who lobbied for screwing clients, isn't the same as some dude who drew a tag.

And further, this kid could pen all sorts of articles about stealing clients money, and no one would care, he doesn't own Deseret, no one buys tags from him, he's just a guide.

Had one of Shockey guides penned that article, no one would care, or know.
 
Hoss
I am going to call Bull@!^$ that the Deseret Land Livestock buys private elk to release on Open range, it is illegal In the state of Utah to have pen raised elk on land that is not high fenced.
hossblur said:
Shockey showed himself to be an ass with that piece on screwing customers. Then followed it up, after all the crying about being broke, and how bad Covid is for guys like him.

Don't care much about the moose shooting, just the douche shooter.

Be about the same as seeing Wade Lemons huge bighorn he shot.

The a-hole holding the gun, outweighs the cool animal
Click to expand...
Shockey was not referring to himself in that article and anyone that has half a brain knows that.
 
I'll find the genetics story, it's been years, so it's hazy, but there was a story about their stagnated genetics and how they were attempting to enhance them.

You are mostly correct on pen raised animals, but we've all seen the spider bull?



As for Shockey? So????

He penned an article about STEALING clients money.

Yes, taking money for a service, then not performing said service is theft.

If I or DW take upfront money for a construction project, then don't do the job, it's theft. Complaints are registered. Licenses revoked.

Being famous doesn't make it different. Nor was he writing a fictional story.
 
If the Deseret Land Livestock did anything like bringing in genetics from penned raised elk it was done illegal and tried to kept secret. Maybe with your SFW connections you was granted secret info.?
Spider bull I am not going down that road or should we say roads.
The article was clearly about a outfitter that had not been in the game long and was struggling to keep his outfit afloat. Jim Shockey has been in the outfitting business for decades and is worth 10s of millions I don't think he is struggling to keep afloat.
Jim Shockey hunting lease is probably 1000 plus square miles do you really think that bull is the only one of that size, it is a great bull but not the only one.

I might be wrong but I thought I have heard the Deseret Land and Livestock uses alot of different guides through out the hunts, unless you request a certain guide you probably dont even know who guides there.
He had a permit and good for him on the buck he killed
 
It’s wild to see all assumptions made on Internet forums.

Deseret Land and Livestock is a 200,000+ acre working cattle ranch owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It produces an incredible amount of beef for the Church’s welfare program, but isn’t even close to the largest cattle ranch the Church owns in the US. The church leases the hunting and fishing programs to Wild Country Outfitters, who operates the CWMU and all hunting and fishing programs under the rules and regulations set forth by the Wildlife Board. They are the only outfitter operating on the ranch today.

This guy in the article is the son of the owner of Wild Country, and basically grew up on that ranch. He got a tag this year and went and hunted. He killed a great buck. That’s pretty much the end of the story for me. I say congrats!

I do remember hearing a while back about the elk transplant on the ranch. I don’t remember any of the details other than they worked with the DWR to bring in animals from Canada, I believe? Maybe it was just a different state. It’s not the only elk transplant this state has ever done. The famed San Juan herd benefitted from elk transplants in my lifetime as well, just as an example. We move different big game animals around and swap with other states somewhat frequently.
 
I worked on DLL for about 10 years, guided dozens of elk hunters on that ranch.
It used to be shared by two outfitters, Bucks and Bulls and Wild Country.
We (B&B) had the west side, WC had the east.
Then, it was decided to join forces and share the entire ranch when the big lodge was built.
We all guided clients together as one big happy family out of one base camp, versus two.
The rumors of herding elk with copters is absolutely absurd and is totally unnecessary.
The ranch is flown, but it's borders are patrolled by air because of the high numbers of "border hopping hunters" trying to sneak on the ranch.
It is not high fence, the animals are free to come and go as they please.
I am unaware of any Canadian transplant program, that's news to me.
Todd Black was the head biologists up there for quite a while, he was a co-owner and I believe founder of San Juan's "Black Timber Outfitters", but has since moved on.
There is absolutely nothing "shady" going on on that ranch, there are wildlife officers and biologists there daily.
Yes Les Schwabb tires buys group tags, as does UnderArmour and the TV stars, Lee and Tiffany.
Bucks and Bulls pulled out of their lease when DLL shifted to the "Corporate Hunting" because it wasn't our forte or style of outfitting.
It is strictly Tommy Land/Wild Country Outfitters.

Thats about all I got.....
 
I’m not positive on the transplant. I only remember hearing about it, and have no personal knowledge of it at all. But even my rusty memory says it was a DWR program that the state did, not a DLL program. (Which it would have to be under both state and federal law.)

Maybe it is just a rumor that was passed around years ago, kind of like helicopter patrols herding well away from borders and dropped flour sacks?
 
notdonhunting said:
If the Deseret Land Livestock did anything like bringing in genetics from penned raised elk it was done illegal and tried to kept secret. Maybe with your SFW connections you was granted secret info.?
Spider bull I am not going down that road or should we say roads.
The article was clearly about a outfitter that had not been in the game long and was struggling to keep his outfit afloat. Jim Shockey has been in the outfitting business for decades and is worth 10s of millions I don't think he is struggling to keep afloat.
Jim Shockey hunting lease is probably 1000 plus square miles do you really think that bull is the only one of that size, it is a great bull but not the only one.

I might be wrong but I thought I have heard the Deseret Land and Livestock uses alot of different guides through out the hunts, unless you request a certain guide you probably dont even know who guides there.
He had a permit and good for him on the buck he killed
Click to expand...


I stand corrected. The story was about one of their neighbors(everyone is a neighbor when you own northern Utah) buying semen to improve their genetics, and yes on a high fence

My understanding with Deseret is the same as yours, the couple guys I know/knew that guided it were random/luck of the draw. But I'm sure they cater to their clienteles requests for guides.

As to Shockey. Do you think if Jim Shockey ordered a truck, paid 50% up front, then had Chevy keep his money and not deliver the truck, that Jim Shockey would say "well, Covid after all"? Or do you think he'd hire a lawyer and sue?

Do you think Jim Shockey would hire DW to build him a guest house, give him 50% up front, then just shrug if DW said sorry, borders closed, then even after it opened say, sorry, already spent that, can't buy your lumber, that Jim Shockey would just understand it's rough out there. Or do you think Jim Shockey would lawyer up?

Many of us learned a real hard, real valuable lesson in 08-09', when we found out the hard way the "real rich, real wealthy, millionaire" developers and contractors we worked for, showed a lot, spent a lot, but didn't truly have 2nickles to rub together. So when they saw an excuse, "Obama recession, great recession, housing bubble", to not pay their bills, steal from the subs, and screw the suppliers, in order to help their own bottom line, THEY JUMPED AT THE CHANCE.

Shockey didn't float that trial balloon story because he cared so deeply about his COMPETITION (other outfitters), that he was willing to take the PR hits, to provide guys he never met, and with whom he competes for buisness, cover. That's not exactly how the real world works, and guys like Shockey, didn't become "famous" internationally buy not thinking about the future, PR,etc.

No worries. Eva will still smile and take fan boy pics with you, whether or not you defended her dad on MM.


HAVING SAID ALL THAT, I hope he and his family are finding peace, CANCER CAN KISS MY ARSE.
 
Vanilla said:
I’m not positive on the transplant. I only remember hearing about it, and have no personal knowledge of it at all. But even my rusty memory says it was a DWR program that the state did, not a DLL program. (Which it would have to be under both state and federal law.)

Maybe it is just a rumor that was passed around years ago, kind of like helicopter patrols herding well away from borders and dropped flour sacks?
Click to expand...


The sacks were from the bishops storehouse?
 
I doubt that the clients that buy the $14,000 "tags" to hunt this ranch will stop buying them, because the "guide" killed this buck. I wonder how many of you on this thread would turn down the chance to chase this buck, given the chance.
 
Got it Hoss.This guy gets a pass for shooting an animal out from under his outfits paying customers cause he's part of the church. Shockey gets lambasted because before doing the exact same thing he wrote some mean words. Isn't that how we ended up with Brandon? Still no takers on ODW's challenge to find a customer Shockey stiffed. Weird??
 
DW said:
Got it Hoss.This guy gets a pass for shooting an animal out from under his outfits paying customers cause he's part of the church. Shockey gets lambasted because before doing the exact same thing he wrote some mean words. Isn't that how we ended up with Brandon? Still no takers on ODW's challenge to find a customer Shockey stiffed. Weird??
Click to expand...


Hitting the spiked eggnog early this morning I see.

Now the kid is Mormon?

Quite the story you're telling
 
I dont have problem with the kid, but I thought there was no pre-season scouting available on CWMU lands for tag holders. If that is so, he had an advantage that other tagholders on the proeprty did not have. Unfair if you ask me, but that is the way the world works I if you are related to the owner of the concession.

Regardless, what an amazing buck!
 
For what it's worth, a few years ago my dad was diagnosed with a debilitating and life ending disease. We knew his time was short, so we cashed his 18 points in on a DLL CWMU deer tag. Austin Land was more than accommodating and even sent one their top guides out to help us find a bigger caliber buck. He didn't have to do that by any means, but he did to make sure we had a good hunt. He also worked with us on the season dates and let us hunt later than everyone else. Turned out to be one of the best hunts of my life and I owe Austin a debt of gratitude for making it happen.
 
Savage110 said:
I dont have problem with the kid, but I thought there was no pre-season scouting available on CWMU lands for tag holders. If that is so, he had an advantage that other tagholders on the proeprty did not have. Unfair if you ask me, but that is the way the world works I if you are related to the owner of the concession.

Regardless, what an amazing buck!
Click to expand...
I believe that is left up to the CWMU to decide, its not a written rule.
 
kittykiller said:
For what it's worth, a few years ago my dad was diagnosed with a debilitating and life ending disease. We knew his time was short, so we cashed his 18 points in on a DLL CWMU deer tag. Austin Land was more than accommodating and even sent one their top guides out to help us find a bigger caliber buck. He didn't have to do that by any means, but he did to make sure we had a good hunt. He also worked with us on the season dates and let us hunt later than everyone else. Turned out to be one of the best hunts of my life and I owe Austin a debt of gratitude for making it happen.
Click to expand...

You’re a SOB!



Spectacular Ole Boy! ?
 

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