"Tough" Winter Discussion

Messages
34
Hey guys. Could be a dumb question but, In regards to deer having a tough winter in the west, what do you feel is the biggest factor? Amount of snow to not be able to find feed, long stretches of very cold temps, winter like conditions that last well into the spring? I'm sure its a combination of a lot of things. Do the current deer herds who just went through a drought year go into the winter already in bad shape?

I just like to learn, and also like to monitor areas/states.
 
Easy answer: All of the above are bad, but the thing that is never mentioned much is loss of habitat, as in winter range. Subdivision after subdivision, development, ect.......... Along with highways, fences, roads, that are brutal for deer in the west during a bad winter.

Remember though it's a double edge sword. Good winter snow and moisture equals a good spring and summer for the deer. It's to bad people keep taking and taking and MD have to suffer for it.
 
Definitely a combo of many things, but I think one of the big challenges comes when we get lots of snow, followed by very cold temperatures that don't allow the snow to melt on south facing slopes and expose needed forage.

When that deep snow crusts up really bad, the animals can't get through it to the feed and become malnourished and die.
 
We have a few hundred deer spend the winter on our farm. Usually we see higher mortality during winters with dry, little to no snow. The snow forces them to eat oily browse from bushes etc, which is better for their digestive system than dry dormant grass. I don't see snow as a big issue. Night temps range from -25 to low 10's. day temps range from low 10's to high 30's. So I don't see temperature being much of an issue. The issue we see is if they have access to winter food, and habitat that allows them to relax and not be chased around so much.
 
What Ive always been told is it’s the late snow that gets them. They get ready all year to make it through winter but if it goes long and makes a late spring is when they have the hardest time since there fat reserve it’s fully depleted by then. Makes sense to me any way
 
What Ive always been told is it’s the late snow that gets them. They get ready all year to make it through winter but if it goes long and makes a late spring is when they have the hardest time since there fat reserve it’s fully depleted by then. Makes sense to me any way
I have always struggled with that concept. I think that at times a late snow might be what does them off, but really an early deep snow without melting could require the same calorie burn and kill deer as well. I have seen massive late snow hit, in the 30" mark but they were not killing deer simply because the snow melted fast and the winter had been average. I still look at 07/08 and and since then and the worst winters we have had like 2 years ago here in WY. The snow came early it got deep, formed a crust and then did not melt for 5-6 weeks. In both those years we were seeing significant losses in January. It does make sense that a late storm could push deer on the edge over, but I feel that they get to edge by long hard periods way before...
 
I think that one of the biggest problems the deer herds face after mild winters like we have had here in Utah for the last few years is there migration process.I was up in what I would call the high country with my son who has a side x side with tracks hunting lions,We went into the same canyon two days in a row and the deer were walking out on our tracks.Ther was a lot more deer up in that elevation than there should have been!
 
I think that one of the biggest problems the deer herds face after mild winters like we have had here in Utah for the last few years is there migration process.I was up in what I would call the high country with my son who has a side x side with tracks hunting lions,We went into the same canyon two days in a row and the deer were walking out on our tracks.Ther was a lot more deer up in that elevation than there should have been!
How long has there been snow there? We had almost no snow at all to over 8000 feet until the last week. Many deer are just now leaving and heading down. We found elk last week at almost 9500 feet they were heading down hard but they stayed high until the snow got deep. I feel this winter was really late start in most areas and some (not all) will stay as high as they can...
 
ya we did not really get deep snow until late November mid December,Hopefully they start moving into the lower country.the elevation we were in was from 7000 to 9000.I did not see much Elk sign in the basin we were in but a ton of deer,Most does only seen a few little bucks but we were looking at tracks more than at the deer.I have seen the Elk stay high all winter on the snow blown ridges tough critters!
 
One other thing about deer staying up high longer into the winter is generally speaking the lower elevation winter range habitat is usually in the worse condition of all the areas they spend time. It gets hammered hard by the highest concentration of deer year after year. The longer deer stay up higher with mild conditions the better…from a nutrition stand point.

The better condition the winter ranges are in the healthier the deer! Everyone has probably read my posts in regard to cheatgrass and it's negative impacts on winter ranges across the Western US? I can't stress how important it is to control cheatgrass where it is found on critical winter ranges!

Also, the better shape deer are going into the winter the better chance they have of survival. Summer and early fall nutrition is super important.

Overall, the toughest scenario for deer (as elks96 mentioned) is a long stretch of deep, crusty snow with super cold temperatures.
 
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Here is one of the most complete mule deer habitat publications I have found. If you are seriously interested in mule deer habitat it's a great read. I'm pretty sure the same crew has put together similar habitat pubs for other regions.

Again, take a look at the summary and notice what they say about cheatgrass!

Just gave that a read! A lot of really good information in it. Lots of course was over my head, but I enjoyed that.
 
WOW now there is some really good information,That really sums up what all these post are debating about.
The last paragraph on page 6 sums up a major issue we face with the Mule deer population in todays world In my opinion.

Jims you nailed it again, The information you bring to your posts is exceptional,I hope ALL MM enthusiast read all the materials you have shared with us.

Thank You
Bucks
 
I did another search this morning and found a link to mule deer habitat publications for all the regions across the Western US. This is the most complete set of recommendations and information that I have found. It's fantastic that they have included specific information by region! Take a look....you will be impressed!

There are 12 pages of scientific references just in the Colorado Plateau region so that gives you an idea how complete these guidelines are!

 
The winter range around where I live went into winter looking horrible. Over grazed and little to none regrowth on grass/forbes because of lack of rain through the summer. Will they be ok time will tell hope they can find some areas that didnt get the crap grazed out of it by cattle!
 
The winter range around where I live went into winter looking horrible. Over grazed and little to none regrowth on grass/forbes because of lack of rain through the summer. Will they be ok time will tell hope they can find some areas that didnt get the crap grazed out of it by cattle!
I hope there isn’t a ton of that since we didn’t have much of a wet spring to start growth in forage
 
Heart disease and cancer.

Too much screen time.

Depression.

Crossing the street without looking both ways.

Suicide.

A lot of potential reasons for winter kill.
 
Everyone always points there finger at winter mortality for the reason mule deer herds are suffering throughout the West. It’s not. It’s a very very complex environmental system. Dr. Kevin Monteith PhD and University of Wyoming wildlife expert leads the Wyoming Range studies and has uncovered what’s likely occurring. He is a treasure trove of information and is fascinating to hear him speak. Wyoming gets a bad winter on average about once each decade which almost annihilates the fawn crop but in most years the fawn mortality averages only 10%. What his research has uncovered through GPS collars and catching the does on the winter range both on arrival and departure and checking for pregnancy rates, ultrasonography and vaginal implants to show when fawns drop so they can capture and assess the fawn crops and collar them has been an incredible valuable resource. The Wyoming Range has had as most areas in the West Zero or very little doe hunting since 1992. Think about that and let it sink in, For almost 30 years now we have had almost No doe/fawn hunting. We should be swimming in deer up to our ears but the population is at an all time low. What his research has uncovered is the does are having fawns at a high rate about 1.83 fawns per doe but they aren’t surviving the first 4 months and making it to the winter range. The mortality rate is more than 50% and some years even significantly higher. The cause is dynamic and changes from year to year but has identified 3 major causes. 1. Disease. 2. Nutrition 3. Predators. In 2015, disease was the leading cause of death for collared fawns and accounted for 28% of all mortalities. The most prevalent disease, adenovirus hemorrhagic disease (AHD), is a viral disease that can cause internal hemorrhaging and pulmonary edema. In 2017, 26% of fawn mortalities were the result of stillborns due to a bad winter the does were severely stressed with poor health state and poor nutrition previously on the Winter range. Conversely, in 2018, only 1 of the 83 fawns collared was stillborn but Predators took out over 30% of the young fawns that year. If we are losing more than half the fawns before they even get to the Winter Range we will never grow our mule deer herds,, that has to be corrected. Finally, what can we do as hunters? Support any mule deer winter range habitat and summer range habitat enhancements with time or money. Hunt cow elk as Dr. Monteith’s research also documents how cow elk are eating the very same forage as the mule deer. The old adage elk are grazers and deer are browsers isn’t what he has observed. Elk are eating and competing directly with the deer for the same forage as are the overgrazing by sheep and cattle on many of those Forest service allotments. At any rate, elk are far far above objective and hunters need to thin them down considerably. Also important are any water development and enhancement projects to help dear throughout dry years. Lastly, predator hunting as much as you can and all types ie not just coyotes but wolves, bears and lions. This study is fascinating and is a multi year study now ongoing for almost a decade. https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/WyomingRange_Winter1819.pdf
 
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The largest factor to winter and more importantly spring mortality is wet around freezing temps with lots of moisture. It's rain to freezing, rain to freezing constantly that gets them. Corelate that to years of die offs and you have your answer.

Cheers, Pete
 
"Conversely, in 2018, only 1 of the 83 fawns collared was stillborn"



they collared a stillborn???....that makes alot of sense....
They put vaginal implants on the does which send out a ping signal when the fetus is out of the womb it gets activated. Read the study, maybe it will help you make sense of it. They are assessing the survival rate from birth all the way to the winter range. What they are finding is more than half aren’t surviving. If we don’t fix that, and the research shows it’s getting worse each year we will never have big herds again.
 
lol....I know exactly how it works........that line still says one of the collared fawns was stillborn.....

....you do understand what stillborn means...right?
 
lol....I know exactly how it works........that line still says one of the collared fawns was stillborn.....

....you do understand what stillborn means...right?
Maybe you missed the precursor, “What his research has uncovered through GPS collars and catching the does on the winter range both on arrival and departure and checking for pregnancy rates, ultrasonography and vaginal implants”.
 
look......whenever I read something so preposterous as collaring a dead fawn......everything else in the writing is suspect.....
 
look......whenever I read something so preposterous as collaring a dead fawn......everything else in the writing is suspect.....
What is certainly more preposterous is Not being able to read properly nor understand how a vaginal implant works. LMFAO.:eek::alien::eek::alien::eek::alien:
 
look......whenever I read something so preposterous as collaring a dead fawn......everything else in the writing is suspect.....
Collaring a fetus maybe? I suppose a collar could be a vaginal implant.

Badger holes yesterday, and now collaring fetal fawns….. I love learning stuff on the internet.?
 
Everyone always points there finger at winter mortality for the reason mule deer herds are suffering throughout the West. It’s not. It’s a very very complex environmental system. Dr. Kevin Monteith PhD and University of Wyoming wildlife expert leads the Wyoming Range studies and has uncovered what’s likely occurring. He is a treasure trove of information and is fascinating to hear him speak. Wyoming gets a bad winter on average about once each decade which almost annihilates the fawn crop but in most years the fawn mortality averages only 10%. What his research has uncovered through GPS collars and catching the does on the winter range both on arrival and departure and checking for pregnancy rates, ultrasonography and vaginal implants to show when fawns drop so they can capture and assess the fawn crops and collar them has been an incredible valuable resource. The Wyoming Range has had as most areas in the West Zero or very little doe hunting since 1992. Think about that and let it sink in, For almost 30 years now we have had almost No doe/fawn hunting. We should be swimming in deer up to our ears but the population is at an all time low. What his research has uncovered is the does are having fawns at a high rate about 1.83 fawns per doe but they aren’t surviving the first 4 months and making it to the winter range. The mortality rate is more than 50% and some years even significantly higher. The cause is dynamic and changes from year to year but has identified 3 major causes. 1. Disease. 2. Nutrition 3. Predators. In 2015, disease was the leading cause of death for collared fawns and accounted for 28% of all mortalities. The most prevalent disease, adenovirus hemorrhagic disease (AHD), is a viral disease that can cause internal hemorrhaging and pulmonary edema. In 2017, 26% of fawn mortalities were the result of stillborns due to a bad winter the does were severely stressed with poor health state and poor nutrition previously on the Winter range. Conversely, in 2018, only 1 of the 83 fawns collared was stillborn but Predators took out over 30% of the young fawns that year. If we are losing more than half the fawns before they even get to the Winter Range we will never grow our mule deer herds,, that has to be corrected. Finally, what can we do as hunters? Support any mule deer winter range habitat and summer range habitat enhancements with time or money. Hunt cow elk as Dr. Monteith’s research also documents how cow elk are eating the very same forage as the mule deer. The old adage elk are grazers and deer are browsers isn’t what he has observed. Elk are eating and competing directly with the deer for the same forage as are the overgrazing by sheep and cattle on many of those Forest service allotments. At any rate, elk are far far above objective and hunters need to thin them down considerably. Also important are any water development and enhancement projects to help dear throughout dry years. Lastly, predator hunting as much as you can and all types ie not just coyotes but wolves, bears and lions. This study is fascinating and is a multi year study now ongoing for almost a decade. https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/WyomingRange_Winter1819.pdf
In most years fawn mortality averages only 10%? Did I miss something here? Then you go on to say how the fawns are dying or stillborn, etc, and how the high fawn mortality is why our deer populations are not rising. I agree with everything you said, but that 10% comment has me confused. I don't think fawn mortality has EVER been that low.

I talked to Gary Fralic ( biologist) the other day and he was ecstatic about the 78/100 fawn/doe ratios that were observed during the first ( Dec) capture! I have also noticed more and healthier fawns so far this winter. Now if they can just stay alive for 3 more months. March is usually the killer month...
 
In most years fawn mortality averages only 10%? Did I miss something here? Then you go on to say how the fawns are dying or stillborn, etc, and how the high fawn mortality is why our deer populations are not rising. I agree with everything you said, but that 10% comment has me confused. I don't think fawn mortality has EVER been that low.

I talked to Gary Fralic ( biologist) the other day and he was ecstatic about the 78/100 fawn/doe ratios that were observed during the first ( Dec) capture! I have also noticed more and healthier fawns so far this winter. Now if they can just stay alive for 3 more months. March is usually the killer month...
You obviously didn’t read Dr. Monteith’s study. It s on page 6. The key takeaway point from all his work is Winter mortality is not near as big a killer in normal winters as is Summer mortality. Yes we do get those horrific winters in Wyoming that wipe out an entire fawn crop but normal winters the survival rate from the fawns arriving on winter range until departing isn’t as high as many people think. The key takeaway if we are ever going to grow mule deer herds we have to stop the huge losses on summer range which is the highest most rich caloric nutrition Nature has to offer yet we are seeing Huge losses on Summer range in those first 4 months of a fawns life.
1741E91B-B89D-4851-813F-8493173B1D81.jpeg
 
You obviously didn’t read Dr. Monteith’s study. It s on page 6. The key takeaway point from all his work is Winter mortality is not near as big a killer in normal winters as is Summer mortality. Yes we do get those horrific winters in Wyoming that wipe out an entire fawn crop but normal winters the survival rate from the fawns arriving on winter range until departing isn’t as high as many people think. The key takeaway if we are ever going to grow mule deer herds we have to stop the huge losses on summer range which is the highest most rich caloric nutrition Nature has to offer yet we are seeing Huge losses on Summer range in those first 4 months of a fawns life.View attachment 64512
Actually, I have read Kevin's study. I always read anything I can in regards to mule deer research and studies. Yes, I also realize summer losses are heavy as well; due to a myriad of reasons (Malnutrition, disease, stillborn, predation, and highway mortality to name a few). I may not be a genius, but I see conflicting numbers between Monteith's numbers and Fralic's numbers. Not saying Kevin is wrong, but how do you account for the huge disparity in winter fawn mortality...specifically 2017? Gary has studied the Wyoming Range herd for 30 years. Please show me what I'm missing here. Thanks

IMG_9808.JPG
 
On a related note, not many people post much on Washington and Oregon on here. Because, well, lets face it the hunting sucks for the most part. I grew up in Ellensburg, WA and a even in the 80s 4 by 4 mature deer were rare. Anyway the Cascades are buried right now with much of the winter in front of them. The snow levels have been really low this year with lots of moisture just coming in like a river. Deer are going to have a much harder time with this than elk of course.
 
On a related note, not many people post much on Washington and Oregon on here. Because, well, lets face it the hunting sucks for the most part. I grew up in Ellensburg, WA and a even in the 80s 4 by 4 mature deer were rare. Anyway the Cascades are buried right now with much of the winter in front of them. The snow levels have been really low this year with lots of moisture just coming in like a river. Deer are going to have a much harder time with this than elk of course.
They lost 56% of the fawns that year on Summer mortality and the remaining 44% were all wiped out on the winter range. A complete loss, 100% mortality that year. Every fawn they collared that year died. The numbers are in the study. What Dr. Monteith research adds is what is happening from birth to their first year. The Biologist ( Fralick) uses the old science of how many fawns are standing early spring after the winter, that doesn’t tell us what happened the previous 9-10 months where Dr. Monteith‘s research attempts to assess the whole cycle. Of course it’s extremely costly and time consuming but we now know Summer mortality in most years is where we are mostly losing those fawns. We need to fix that. If not, mule deer will continually decline until they are a relic of the past, it’s about there now. Sad.
 
One factor that dramatically improves fawns chance for survival each and every year is having healthy does that lead to healthy fawns.

Habitat improvement projects on the winter range is a great starting point. Winter nutrition is an important component. Winter ranges get pounded year after year by the high densities of deer at the does highest stressed period. Fat reserves are likely close to 0 by the end of the winter. To top it off, does also have fetus that is developing through the winter. If winter feed is nutritious the does will use less fat reserves and fawns will start off healthier!

Healthy fawns will likely be less prone to disease and possibly even predators. Obviously healthy fawns when born will likely gain weight quicker in the spring and be in better shape coming into their first winter.
 
I know all about the reluctance to use whitetail research, at Auburn and Mississippi State Univ. so for what it’s worth, they have done (Doctor Jacobson) research that has demonstrated the amount of protein fawns receive through their mother’s milk, has a huge factor in the fawns fall body fat and their winter survivability, even in the more mild winter climates of the southern States. Add that knowledge to the fawn survival studies on Utah’s Monroe Mountian in the in the 2010-2016 period, which recorded the percentage of fawns kill by predation and death by other natural causes, during the summer/fall, over a period of 5 years.

I used to read these research projects with great interest but not anymore because no one with any authority was ever been willing to act upon the data gathered from the research.

But......... with my limited intellectual ability it certainly seemed to be that a 75% or higher Fawn survival grew the deer scary rapid. Fawn survival at 60% or lower, the deer herd declined equally scary fast. The break even, depending on the unit, (ie: how many highways, deserts, average temperature, etc.) a was between 60%-75%.

If you study the data from the 1940s through the 1980s, the spring fawn survival counts where nearly all over 75%, since the last 1980’s almost all data shows fawn survival has been less than 75% and many units have been under 50%. So........ since the early 1990’s almost all of the mule deer herds have either been static or declining. Thus our current population trends....... are down, and it seems the trends have been consistent with the fawn survival
data research.

We can’t control the weather and the protein in the mother’s milk but we can controls predation and the other smaller mortality factors, if we wanted to. By controlling the factors that we can control we would be minimizing the consequences of the uncontrollable weather/low protein factor. When we don’t control the controllable and couple that with the uncontrollable, we will continue to trend down, with small, short lived plateaus when the weather is ideal, which it rare. Either way, we’ll
never maintain sustained growth, if we don’t continuously keep fawn survival at 75% or above.

Rhetorically: how you betting?
 
I agree that we can't control the weather but strongly disagree that we can't control the protein in the mother's milk.

Here's what I stated above: "Habitat improvement projects on the winter range is a great starting point. Winter nutrition is an important component. Winter ranges get pounded year after year by high densities of deer at the does highest stress period. Fat reserves are likely close to 0 by the end of the winter. To top it off, does also have fetus that is developing through the winter. If winter feed is nutritious the does will use less fat reserves and fawns will start off healthier!"

Healthy fawns will likely be less prone to disease and possibly even predators. Obviously healthy fawns when born will likely gain weight quicker in the spring and be in better shape coming into their first winter."

If doe fat reserves are higher at the end of the winter and early spring that means that their milk protein levels are likely higher when they deliver fawns...especially after rough winters.

If you have large, dense cheatgrass infestations on your winter ranges and they are sprayed I can guarantee nutrition and doe/fawn health will improve.

We have game cameras set up on winter ranges here in Colorado. Rejuvra was sprayed to control cheatgrass at 3 sites. This data is actually 3 years after cheatgrass was controlled, representing long term cheatgrass control. Cameras were set up in adjacent sprayed and nonsprayed areas. The areas where we have sprayed cheatgrass are like food plots to deer through the winter and spring. Most of the deer photos taken from cheatgrass sites are where deer are merely moving through the area. Deer highly utilize sprayed areas where high nutrition browse is released from competition with cheatgrass. Browse leader growth and native forb/grass biomass significantly increases where cheatgrass is controlled.

Early in the spring the deer in our area tend to change diets away from woody shrubs. They tend to target nutritious, fresh, green forb and grass growth. Take a look at the # of deer in the cameras where cheatgrass was controlled in May. There is a spike in utilization of browse in early spring due to the lush new forb and grass growth.

There is a nose dive in deer numbers after May when most deer leave the winter ranges at this site. The does are aware that nutrition is likely better at higher elevation where they give birth and are lactating. This summer was extremely dry with almost no moisture here in Colo. I'm actually seeing even higher concentration of deer browsing this winter where cheatgrass was controlled in a drought year. I'm sure the added stress of drought plus cheatgrass competition has definite impacts on availability and nutrition of natives.

The differences in nutrition between sprayed and cheatgrass infested areas is black and white....and believe me, the deer know it! Hopefully land managers are willing to take this information and use it to the deer's advantage!

Game camera count.jpg

bitterbrushb.jpg

We harvested antelope bitterbrush leader growth biomass. 5 longest leaders/plant and 20 plants at 3 sites. The left clump is bitterbrush leaders where cheatgrass was controlled and right side of the scissors is the same number of leaders from the adjacent cheatgrass infested area. Do you see any difference?

We also took this one step further this year and counted number of leaders/bitterbrush plant. There are actually way more leaders! We were able to combine leader biomass plus total number of leaders/plant to come up with leader growth biomass/plant. When these are combined there are even more significant differences. I'm hoping in the future to compare nutritional analysis (crude protein, etc) of browse.
 
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I agree that we can't control the weather but strongly disagree that we can't control the protein in the mother's milk.

Here's what I stated above: "Habitat improvement projects on the winter range is a great starting point. Winter nutrition is an important component. Winter ranges get pounded year after year by high densities of deer at the does highest stress period. Fat reserves are likely close to 0 by the end of the winter. To top it off, does also have fetus that is developing through the winter. If winter feed is nutritious the does will use less fat reserves and fawns will start off healthier!"

Healthy fawns will likely be less prone to disease and possibly even predators. Obviously healthy fawns when born will likely gain weight quicker in the spring and be in better shape coming into their first winter."

If doe fat reserves are higher at the end of the winter and early spring that means that their milk protein levels are likely higher when they deliver fawns...especially after rough winters.

If you have large, dense cheatgrass infestations on your winter ranges and they are sprayed I can guarantee nutrition and doe/fawn health will improve.

We have game cameras set up on winter ranges here in Colorado. Rejuvra was sprayed to control cheatgrass at 3 sites. This data is actually 3 years after cheatgrass was controlled, representing long term cheatgrass control. Cameras were set up in adjacent sprayed and nonsprayed areas. The areas where we have sprayed cheatgrass are like food plots to deer through the winter and spring. Most of the deer photos taken from cheatgrass sites are where deer are merely moving through the area. Deer highly utilize sprayed areas where high nutrition browse is released from competition with cheatgrass. Browse leader growth and native forb/grass biomass significantly increases where cheatgrass is controlled.

Early in the spring the deer in our area tend to change diets away from woody shrubs. They tend to target nutritious, fresh, green forb and grass growth. Take a look at the # of deer in the cameras where cheatgrass was controlled in May. There is a spike in utilization of browse in early spring due to the lush new forb and grass growth.

There is a nose dive in deer numbers after May when most deer leave the winter ranges at this site. The does are aware that nutrition is likely better at higher elevation where they give birth and are lactating. This summer was extremely dry with almost no moisture here in Colo. I'm actually seeing even higher concentration of deer browsing this winter where cheatgrass was controlled in a drought year. I'm sure the added stress of drought plus cheatgrass competition has definite impacts on availability and nutrition of natives.

The differences in nutrition between sprayed and cheatgrass infested areas is black and white....and believe me, the deer know it! Hopefully land managers are willing to take this information and use it to the deer's advantage!

View attachment 65546
View attachment 65547
We harvested antelope bitterbrush leader growth biomass. 5 longest leaders/plant and 20 plants at 3 sites. The left clump is bitterbrush leaders where cheatgrass was controlled and right side of the scissors is the same number of leaders from the adjacent cheatgrass infested area. Do you see any difference?

We also took this one step further this year and counted number of leaders/bitterbrush plant. There are actually way more leaders! We were able to combine leader biomass plus total number of leaders/plant to come up with leader growth biomass/plant. When these are combined there are even more significant differences. I'm hoping in the future to compare nutritional analysis (crude protein, etc) of browse.
You are absolutely right Jim, I was wrong to say we couldn’t control the habitat and the mothers milk. And we absolutely should. We remove juniper and piñon for cattle and sage grouse and reseed but we do very little for mule deer and I believe the work you’ve done with cheat grass is amazing and wish every county in the West was doing what you’re doing. Hopefully someday it will happen. Thanks for being this up. It can’t be said enough.
 
Mule Deer after a drought year do not winter well. In the fall if you see the doe's feeding most of the day you know there is going to be a lot of winter kill. Idaho Fish & game should take this into consideration on their safe land program and not clear cut it on drought years. In fact thy should never clear cut the entire arc rage every 5 years but cut 1/5 every year. I watched approximately 130 small buck and doe's feeding most of the day in a Idaho safe land program until thy cut it in September at the time the Deer needed it the most. Within one week all the Deer were gone along with the Sage Grouse, Sharp tail Grouse, and Hungarian Partridge. I believe cutting 1/5 every year would be a better use of this program. We need all the Habitat we have. This is a good program if it was managed right.
 
The elephant in the room is the severe over grazing by cattle. We regulate energy exploration and development, build wildlife over passes, etc. Nobody wants to address the over grazing problems. Areas that I hunted in the past that held large numbers of deer and many good bucks are now void of all deer... and vegetation due to over grazing.
 
The elephant in the room is the severe over grazing by cattle. We regulate energy exploration and development, build wildlife over passes, etc. Nobody wants to address the over grazing problems. Areas that I hunted in the past that held large numbers of deer and many good bucks are now void of all deer... and vegetation due to over grazing.
I disagree. Cattle are regulated on public lands and in many cases they are not the issue. I was part of prolonged studies in NW Colorado. The area was heavy oil and gas use and was also grazed by cattle. The data over whelming showed that under normals, even hash winters the nutrition was not a significant source of mortality. The mortality was higher when the winter was classified as extreme. In the study time from around 2000 to 2015 we had 2 winters that were extreme. The nutrition on the range was still there the snow and temp simply made it in accessible. That was compounded by the fact that the predators on those winters had a massive advantage. The deer got slaughtered by coyotes and lions and even some bobcats because the deep crusted snow allowed the lighter predators to travel on top of the crust with ease while the deer were post-holing.

Can over grazing occur? Yes but usually that is localized and rare event. It is also rare that cattle will have a significant impact across the range, localized around a water hole, or a fence corner or near a salt lick yes... But on most large pastures a massive percent of the range and the forbs and browse the deer consume are not affected.

I will say this, feral invasive horses are a much different story and if you really want to see overgrazing and get a perspective of what over grazing truly looks like then visit an HMA. It will make the grazing done by regulated sheep and cattle grazing look totally different.
 
The elephant in the room is the severe over grazing by cattle. We regulate energy exploration and development, build wildlife over passes, etc. Nobody wants to address the over grazing problems. Areas that I hunted in the past that held large numbers of deer and many good bucks are now void of all deer... and vegetation due to over grazing.
Maybe an iota of an effect. Cattle prefer grass; deer prefer forbs & 'browse' --edible woody plant growth.
 
Dont forget planes, trains, and automobiles.
Planes... "studying" them for months and miles at 4+ ft of snow and -30 temps.

Trains... cant swerve and up to 65-70 mph, take out while herds at times and to count the dead you have to count hooves and divide by 4, its a twisted mess.

Automobiles... laying on the horn and zipping right through at 65 mph, what could go wrong, when they are on both sides 2' from the lines?

And all this after the biggest killer, paper, with ANTLERED DEER followed by season dates printed on it.
 
I disagree. Cattle are regulated on public lands and in many cases they are not the issue. I was part of prolonged studies in NW Colorado. The area was heavy oil and gas use and was also grazed by cattle. The data over whelming showed that under normals, even hash winters the nutrition was not a significant source of mortality. The mortality was higher when the winter was classified as extreme. In the study time from around 2000 to 2015 we had 2 winters that were extreme. The nutrition on the range was still there the snow and temp simply made it in accessible. That was compounded by the fact that the predators on those winters had a massive advantage. The deer got slaughtered by coyotes and lions and even some bobcats because the deep crusted snow allowed the lighter predators to travel on top of the crust with ease while the deer were post-holing.

Can over grazing occur? Yes but usually that is localized and rare event. It is also rare that cattle will have a significant impact across the range, localized around a water hole, or a fence corner or near a salt lick yes... But on most large pastures a massive percent of the range and the forbs and browse the deer consume are not affected.

I will say this, feral invasive horses are a much different story and if you really want to see overgrazing and get a perspective of what over grazing truly looks like then visit an HMA. It will make the grazing done by regulated sheep and cattle grazing look totally different.
So on drought years how are the number of cattle on public land leases adjusted? And for my follow up question do you always talk out of your butt or just on hunting forums?
 
I disagree. Cattle are regulated on public lands and in many cases they are not the issue. I was part of prolonged studies in NW Colorado. The area was heavy oil and gas use and was also grazed by cattle. The data over whelming showed that under normals, even hash winters the nutrition was not a significant source of mortality. The mortality was higher when the winter was classified as extreme. In the study time from around 2000 to 2015 we had 2 winters that were extreme. The nutrition on the range was still there the snow and temp simply made it in accessible. That was compounded by the fact that the predators on those winters had a massive advantage. The deer got slaughtered by coyotes and lions and even some bobcats because the deep crusted snow allowed the lighter predators to travel on top of the crust with ease while the deer were post-holing.

Can over grazing occur? Yes but usually that is localized and rare event. It is also rare that cattle will have a significant impact across the range, localized around a water hole, or a fence corner or near a salt lick yes... But on most large pastures a massive percent of the range and the forbs and browse the deer consume are not affected.

I will say this, feral invasive horses are a much different story and if you really want to see overgrazing and get a perspective of what over grazing truly looks like then visit an HMA. It will make the grazing done by regulated sheep and cattle grazing look totally different.
235B3D5E-50BB-42D4-8D0B-8BC8F68F2FB4.jpeg
 
So on drought years how are the number of cattle on public land leases adjusted? And for my follow up question do you always talk out of your butt or just on hunting forums?
There are many ways. Each allotment has a set AMU that is allowed to use the range. In times of drought the AMU is adjusted.

Also in extreme drought there are pastures that are emergency banks of feed. These banks of feed can be used. Sorry but the range science is there, it is a real thing… The grass banks may also be used for cattle displaced by fire etc.

On public lands the numbers can constantly be adjusted. When the ranges start to deteriorate then the numbers are adjusted. Granted some managers are more aggressive, some are a little slower but they are managed and they are adjusted. Lastly many ranchers understand that the soil and the grass are their future. They are not out to overgraze, they are not out to destroy the range, if they are and they do, they eventually run out of options.

My old neighbors have seen their lease adjusted in Colorado down for the last 5 years. They currently are allowed to run about 80% of the 20 year average. In about 6 weeks they will get count they are allowed for this year. With previous cuts and current moisture they are likely going back.

Oh and if a producer has more cattle than they have a grazing permit for they have to find an alternate feeding option or sale cattle.

Funny you seldom have any facts…
 
There are many ways. Each allotment has a set AMU that is allowed to use the range. In times of drought the AMU is adjusted.

Also in extreme drought there are pastures that are emergency banks of feed. These banks of feed can be used. Sorry but the range science is there, it is a real thing… The grass banks may also be used for cattle displaced by fire etc.

On public lands the numbers can constantly be adjusted. When the ranges start to deteriorate then the numbers are adjusted. Granted some managers are more aggressive, some are a little slower but they are managed and they are adjusted. Lastly many ranchers understand that the soil and the grass are their future. They are not out to overgraze, they are not out to destroy the range, if they are and they do, they eventually run out of options.

My old neighbors have seen their lease adjusted in Colorado down for the last 5 years. They currently are allowed to run about 80% of the 20 year average. In about 6 weeks they will get count they are allowed for this year. With previous cuts and current moisture they are likely going back.

Oh and if a producer has more cattle than they have a grazing permit for they have to find an alternate feeding option or sale cattle.

Funny you seldom have any facts…
1) You need to stop listening to your old neighbors
2) Your opinion is not fact
3) Just because it’s how you think it works is not how it actually works
4). You’re too old to be spoon fed

Btw hows that one shot letter progressing?
 
1) You need to stop listening to your old neighbors
2) Your opinion is not fact
3) Just because it’s how you think it works is not how it actually works
4). You’re too old to be spoon fed

Btw hows that one shot letter progressing?
I know how it works, I have actually done the work, and have worked with both the land managers and the ranchers. Specifically addressing weed mitigation during drought. It is an active system and I have seen it work first hand. Having worked with various land managers I know all work/function a little different. There are other action that can be taken during drought. A major move is to increase the distribution and the availability of good clean water sources. Providing temporary tanks can greatly reduce impacts on the range. Also timing it very important, grazing at different times can actually make a significant impact on the range. Truth is many people do not realize that grazing iff the top is not the real concern, but root growth is the key. You can graze a dry range down pretty hard and not effect it long term assuming you do so after the plants have went dormant. This reduces the stress and damage to the roots which are necessary for the range.

Do you have any proof to support your claims?

As for the one shot. I have attempted to stop by 3 times and they are not open. I have sent 3 separate emails with questions and no responses yet. I did get some good info from the Fame and Fish, but not One shot…
 
So SS, all I have ever seen you do in every one of your posts is to criticize others. Please inform all of us some of the solutions you have in Wyoming? For once in your dam life stand up and help others rather than ridicule them?

So SS, let’s get to the nitty-gritty? Take a look at the first post and let’s get started!
 
How many BLM and forest service trucks have you fellows seen on the exact date of departure for domestic livestock from a specific allotment? It’s always dragged on …
Mule deer are dang near if not the most threatened big game animal in the west.?

Elk are stupid, you want meat shoot a cow elk… there’s your meat! Do not shoot doe mule deer!!
Is it not that obvious?
Deer are allot more fragile than elk.??
 
So SS, all I have ever seen you do in every one of your posts is to criticize others. Please inform all of us some of the solutions you have in Wyoming? For once in your dam life stand up and help others rather than ridicule them?

Is this recop

So SS, let’s get to the nitty-gritty? Take a look at the first post and let’s get started!
 
Where is Jims regards to the rest of the west? What extensive knowledge does he have for other mule deer states?
 
Here is some additional browse data that we collected last year that will benefit other Western States.

This year we went a step beyond what we've monitored in past years by collecting leader growth biomass where cheatgrass was sprayed vs immediately adjacent sites with dense cheatgrass. We harvested 5 leaders/plant and counted the number of leaders/plant. We did this for 25 shrub plants/site and at 6 different sites.

When individual leader biomass is multiplied x number of leaders/plant it represents total fresh leader growth biomass available for mule deer browse. We saw an 86% increase in total leader biomass/plant where cheatgrass was controlled for both antelope bitterbrush and mtn mahogany.

The photo on the right side in the upper photo was leader growth response of bitterbrush to cheatgrass control only a few months after a winter treatment.

leader biomass.jpg
 
Here is a little info about mule deer digestion and diet that's pretty interesting. I have a feeling some of you may not be aware but mule deer can actually die of starvation with full bellies.

mule deer nutrition.jpg
 
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Here's some of the negative impacts cheatgrass has on browse. The bottom photos are from a 1,000 acre winter range area that we had aerial sprayed about a month ago. Notice how clubbed the mtn mahogany is from heavy use by both elk and deer plus extreme cheatgrass competition.

We collected baseline data prior to spraying and will be excited to see what this area looks like in 2022.


cheatgrasss.jpg
 
Here is some additional browse data that we collected last year that will benefit other Western States.

This year we went a step beyond what we've monitored in past years by collecting leader growth biomass where cheatgrass was sprayed vs immediately adjacent sites with dense cheatgrass. We harvested 5 leaders/plant and counted the number of leaders/plant. We did this for 25 shrub plants/site and at 6 different sites.

When individual leader biomass is multiplied x number of leaders/plant it represents total fresh leader growth biomass available for mule deer browse. We saw an 86% increase in total leader biomass/plant where cheatgrass was controlled for both antelope bitterbrush and mtn mahogany.

The photo on the right side in the upper photo was leader growth response of bitterbrush to cheatgrass control only a few months after a winter treatment.
Probably asking the obvious………. Is the extra grow of the bitterbrush attributed entirely to the addition water it is receiving because the cheatgrass is dead and no longer sucking all the moisture way from the bitter rush? That’s is are there any other factors, at play other than cheatgrass is gone? Such as Rejuvra adding a fertilizer or some other stimulate effect?

If Rejuvra is applied as per recommended, how completely does it kill the cheatgrass?

If some cheatgrass seed is left, unsprouted, will it grow two years later, in a treated area? That is, how many years after the original treatment will Rejuvra continue to kill cheatgrass?

Are there circumstances were, due to weather conditions, retreatments of Rejuvra need to be applied the next year, or again in two or three years, to keep cheatgrass in remission?
 
The top graph represents baseline transect taken prior to aerial spraying vs returning 3 years after treatment to monitor those same transects. It's exciting to see long-term cheatgrass control that increases shrub leader growth but also releases remnant native species that are highly import for mule deer, pollinators, and other wildlife.

The bottom graph represents the dramatic increase of native species diversity where there is long-term cheatgrass control. We have been monitoring 14 sites that are 1 to as many 5 years after application. These are highly diverse sites with as many as 145 native species present where cheatgrass was controlled. These native species slowly but surely fill in the gabs where there previously was extremely dense cheatgrass. What has been super exciting is that a number of these species that are increasing are rare or species of special local concern.

Mule deer prefer highly diverse diets of difference browse species. As mentioned above this changes with availability and seasons.

rabbit aerial.jpg
 
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The exciting thing about all of this is the almost immediate response of browse leader growth and remnant native species that increase due to the lack of competition for water and nutrition resources. Both antelope bitterbrush and mtn mahogany in our area is found in well drained soils. Some of these soils are rocky and gravelly. The additional water is likely a major factor in the dramatic increase in shrub growth. Curt Gowdy park west of Cheyenne, Wyo has done similar work and found a 28% increase in desirable shrub leader length. I'm certain their shrub response would be even higher if they monitored leader biomass.

We generally receive around 12 to 14" of precip in our area. The majority of the moisture in our area is from February through May. Generally that is the time when cheatgrass is green and robs natives of early spring moisture. Cheatgrass enhances drought conditions since it robs moisture while it is green during early spring (generally our wettest time of year).

We are going to look at microbes this coming year inside and outside cheatgrass infested areas. I would think with higher moisture levels plus a higher diversity of plants that there could possibly be more microbes and a higher diversity of soil microbes where cheatgrass is controlled. Antelope bitterbrush often has nitrogen fixing root nodules that are associated with particular microbes. From what I understand, cheatgrass can thrive without microbes so that may also have relevance.

CSU has conducted several lab studies that have found that downy brome, ventanata, japanese brome, and medusa head are highly sensitive to extremely low rates of Rejuvra. We are actually seeing 3 to 5+ years of cheatgrass control. Most of the 14 sites mentioned above are 3 to 5 years after treatment and still looking amazing! Cheatgrass seed lifespan in the soil is 2 to 5 years. The only places I'm seeing cheatgrass return is from adjacent non-sprayed areas or skips where cheatgrass wasn't sprayed. Obviously seed could be reintroduced into areas or applicator error while spraying.

One of the timings to spray Rejuvra is in late June-early July. Cheatgrass seed is often still attached to plants during that time. CSU did a study that showed that sprayed seed on cheatgrass plants is controlled.

Rejuvra needs moisture to get activated into the upper soil profile. It doesn't move once it reaches the soil and is only found in the upper cm or so of soil. Timing of application is extremely important the first year after application.

I haven't even discussed cheatgrass fueled wildfires that burn more intense and have destructive impacts on desirable shrub species. The closer we look at cheatgrass impacts, the more positive impacts we have discovered!

If anyone is traveling through the Front Range in Colorado and wants a personal tour of areas with long-term cheatgrass control please send me a message and we'll meet up. I know you will be impressed!
 
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Jim, I would like to look into doing a small test on an area above my home.

Approximately how much per acre is the Rejuvra and is it possible to apply it with a hand operated applicator.
 
So SS, all I have ever seen you do in every one of your posts is to criticize others. Please inform all of us some of the solutions you have in Wyoming? For once in your dam life stand up and help others rather than ridicule them?

So SS, let’s get to the nitty-gritty? Take a look at the first post and let’s get started!
I know how it works, I have actually done the work, and have worked with both the land managers and the ranchers. Specifically addressing weed mitigation during drought. It is an active system and I have seen it work first hand. Having worked with various land managers I know all work/function a little different. There are other action that can be taken during drought. A major move is to increase the distribution and the availability of good clean water sources. Providing temporary tanks can greatly reduce impacts on the range. Also timing it very important, grazing at different times can actually make a significant impact on the range. Truth is many people do not realize that grazing iff the top is not the real concern, but root growth is the key. You can graze a dry range down pretty hard and not effect it long term assuming you do so after the plants have went dormant. This reduces the stress and damage to the roots which are necessary for the range.

Do you have any proof to support your claims?

As for the one shot. I have attempted to stop by 3 times and they are not open. I have sent 3 separate emails with questions and no responses yet. I did get some good info from the Fame and Fish, but not One shot…
@elks96 Thanks for the reply. Like expected you don’t have any experience regarding grazing. You’ve never been involved yet you spout off misinformation. Must be a Colorado thing.

Where you deer hunt down in the desert currently has hundreds of cows on the lease that are not suppose to be on there. The range looks like crap right now. Why isn’t anything being done? The cows were suppose to be off of there months ago. Why are they still there? Please don’t embarrass yourself, I know the answer. You do not. I don’t need to tell you my experience with public land grazing. There are plenty of people on here who know my ties to grazing.

@jims unlike your Colorado brother @elks96 Im not going to comment on the cheatgrass. I’m not going to talk out my ass about something I know nothing about like @elks96 does about public land grazing.
 

Jim, it looks like Utah has started a test project here, near Fountain Green. I just ran across this article. 140 acres, paid for by conservation groups, and Utah’s Division of Wildlife Resources. Just started last fall. It’s about 90 miles from my house. I’m going to keep an eye on it, to see how it works out.
 
Poison coyotes x Ariel shoot coyotes x kill more elk x restore winter habitat = more deer
None of which will happen so are deer are screwed
Here in NM where I hunt the coyotes and mountain lions are decimating our deer herds. I had a Game Warden tell me to shoot every coyote I encounter.
 
I believe enough money and time have been spent on mule deer. Mule deer are like that one member of your family that everyone has to always help out and make excuses for. I say no more. It's time for mule deer to adapt to the changes or GTFO of here. You don't see all this time and money being spent on whitetails. FUGG mule deer. Whiney ass little bitches. Always blaming winter, predators, habitat. Enough is enough.

All you guys that donate money or time are enablers and are doing no favors to mule deer. They need to learn to stand up by themselves. You keep giving out handouts and look what you have? A bunch of liberal ass deer running around that can't fend for themselves.
 
I believe enough money and time have been spent on mule deer. Mule deer are like that one member of your family that everyone has to always help out and make excuses for. I say no more. It's time for mule deer to adapt to the changes or GTFO of here. You don't see all this time and money being spent on whitetails. FUGG mule deer. Whiney ass little bitches. Always blaming winter, predators, habitat. Enough is enough.

All you guys that donate money or time are enablers and are doing no favors to mule deer. They need to learn to stand up by themselves. You keep giving out handouts and look what you have? A bunch of liberal ass deer running around that can't fend for themselves.
Maybe……..we just give on up mule deer on public land. Maybe….. we invest all of these handouts and donations to private land owners, that have proven their skills at increasing herd sizes and age classes of mule deer. Maybe we stop selling 1,000 tags, gambling that only 380 bucks will get killed. Maybe we sell only 380 tags and make sure 380 get killed, on more no less. Maybe we reward private land owners by the number of surplus mule deer they produce and how close they come to the harvest objective for the property. If they meet the surplus objectives, they’re paid a bonus, if they exceed the objective, they receive an additional bonus. Incentives are a natural stimulus to improve objectives.

I’m of the opinion that mule deer on public lands are going to disappear. Sooner that later…….. as SS! said. Mule deer on private lands may very well be the only solution. With a different mind sent, and sufficient growth in populations, on private land, the cost to hunt them come down. Supply and demand pressures could actually bring the current cost of private land hunting down……. maybe costs far below current private land hunting.

Just considering possible alternative.
 
Why stop at mule deer? The same thing could be said about bighorn sheep? How much time and $ has been invested in sheep? How many tags are issued in any given year? Sheep are so prone to disease and their numbers relatively low across the west…is it really wort it?
 
Why stop at mule deer? The same thing could be said about bighorn sheep? How much time and $ has been invested in sheep? How many tags are issued in any given year? Sheep are so prone to disease and their numbers relatively low across the west…is it really wort it?
No it’s not. Adapt or die.
 
What about democrats, we have generations on government assistance, a vicious cycle handed down over and over again. Adapt or die….
 
What about democrats, we have generations on government assistance, a vicious cycle handed down over and over again. Adapt or die….
LOL how would all the state get Fed money then.
Take a guess where 30% of the fed's money come from what State. Starts with a BIG C
 
I'm no fan of Californians but they export more federal dollars than they take in by a long shot. and the biggest recipients of those blue states dollars are the welfare Willy red states in the south. so who's really on the take?

WTF does this have to do with range conditions winterkill ? focus.
 
I'm no fan of Californians but they export more federal dollars than they take in by a long shot. and the biggest recipients of those blue states dollars are the welfare Willy red states in the south. so who's really on the take?

WTF does this have to do with range conditions winterkill ? focus.
Your big city blue democrat states take in way more “welfare” dollars than anybody else. There wouldn’t be democrats without the welfare money they give out to their constituents.
 
I disagree. Cattle are regulated on public lands and in many cases they are not the issue. I was part of prolonged studies in NW Colorado. The area was heavy oil and gas use and was also grazed by cattle. The data over whelming showed that under normals, even hash winters the nutrition was not a significant source of mortality. The mortality was higher when the winter was classified as extreme. In the study time from around 2000 to 2015 we had 2 winters that were extreme. The nutrition on the range was still there the snow and temp simply made it in accessible. That was compounded by the fact that the predators on those winters had a massive advantage. The deer got slaughtered by coyotes and lions and even some bobcats because the deep crusted snow allowed the lighter predators to travel on top of the crust with ease while the deer were post-holing.

Can over grazing occur? Yes but usually that is localized and rare event. It is also rare that cattle will have a significant impact across the range, localized around a water hole, or a fence corner or near a salt lick yes... But on most large pastures a massive percent of the range and the forbs and browse the deer consume are not affected.

I will say this, feral invasive horses are a much different story and if you really want to see overgrazing and get a perspective of what over grazing truly looks like then visit an HMA. It will make the grazing done by regulated sheep and cattle grazing look totally different.
Much of, if not most of the public we regularly hunt was grazed down to bare dirt last season, and void of wildlife. Almost the same the season prior.
 

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