Corner crossing case

N_Corey said:
Why does a road have to go down a property line?
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It doesn’t but would you want it going willy nilly through every section? North Dakota has an easement along every section, they don’t have roads around most of them in rural areas but it leaves room for future growth with a square grid shaped system. Ever flown over it and seen the road pattern?
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jm77 said:
Leo Sheep Co v U.S. There is going to be no eminent domain on corners.
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That was the main point of Leo Sheep. The majority opinion said no implied easement was reserved to build a road but if you want to access it, you already have the ability to use eminent domain.
“in this case, because the Government has the power of eminent domain. Jurisdictions have generally seen eminent domain and easements by necessity as alternative ways to effect the same result. For example, the State of Wyoming no longer recognizes the common law easement by necessity in cases involving landlocked estates. It provides instead for a procedure whereby the landlocked owner can have an access route condemned on his behalf upon payment of the necessary compensation to the owner of the servient estate.” https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/440/668/
 
Most of North Dakota is flat as a pancake. In most western states roads have to twist and wind around to follow the terrain anyways. If they were going the easement route I don’t think it’s be any big deal to only gain access through the corner. I actually don’t feel there needs to be road access though just enough to be able to legally walk in is fine with me.
 
N_Corey said:
Most of North Dakota is flat as a pancake. In most western states roads have to twist and wind around to follow the terrain anyways. If they were going the easement route I don’t think it’s be any big deal to only gain access through the corner. I actually don’t feel there needs to be road access though just enough to be able to legally walk in is fine with me.
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Again……Roads would not be constructed on hardly any of these nor will the majority of these parcels require a negotiated easement, the costs would just likely be far too cost prohibitive. My point was you can’t buy an easement for $2.05, that is just laughable…….
 
The point flyer is, trying to make is,
If you want access to public where there is no legal obligation for the LAND OWNER to allow it $2.05 just isnt gonna, cut it,
10k-15k and you might get them to sit and talk but $2.05 thats not enough for them to answer the door when. You knock
 
I thought the discussion was if eminent domain was being used. If that were the case the landowner doesn’t really have a choice. If it was a negotiated easement then yes the price tag would be extremely high because all that public land that they have exclusive access to is actually worth a lot of money to them.
 
N_Corey said:
I thought the discussion was if eminent domain was being used. If that were the case the landowner doesn’t really have a choice. If it was a negotiated easement then yes the price tag would be extremely high because all that public land that they have exclusive access to is actually worth a lot of money to them.
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You can't use/, claim Eminent domain Just because a certain group (hunters) are mad because the rancher wont let them across his property to go kill something
It can only be used if there is no other solution in this case there IS another solution but its, an expensive one
Ive known several people who have fought eminent domain and won, so yes the land owner DOES have a, choice he can take it to court & im thinking he would actually win
 
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I never said you could use eminent domain for this or that it’d ever work that’s just what the discussion was about concerning payment for an easement.
 
Yea I’d agree that landowners can win eminent domain cases but if they don’t the price they’re paid is still set pretty much out of their control.
 
Ultimag said:
You can't use/, claim Eminent domain Just because a certain group (hunters) are mad because the rancher wont let them across his property to go kill something
It can only be used if there is no other solution in this case there IS another solution but its, an expensive one
Ive known several people who have fought eminent domain and won, so yes the land owner DOES have a, choice he can take it to court & im thinking he would actually win
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What is the other solution?
 
N_Corey said:
Yea I’d agree that landowners can win eminent domain cases but if they don’t the price they’re paid is still set pretty much out of their control.
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Or the price, is, set by what the courts (judge) sets & im betting its gonna be a more then $2.05
 
Ultimag said:
Or the price, is, set by what the courts (judge) sets & im betting its gonna be a more then $2.05
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That may depend on how much the landowners are paying the judge behind closed doors or whether or not the judge has some other benefits from this. I think most imminent domain cases generally shoot for fair market value of the amount of land used. The only argument really that the landowner could use is that providing access to the public land is drastically diminishing the value of they’re property which I’d say is their problem but I’m not sure what a judge would say.
 
N_Corey said:
That may depend on how much the landowners are paying the judge behind closed doors or whether or not the judge has some other benefits from this. I think most imminent domain cases generally shoot for fair market value of the amount of land used. The only argument really that the landowner could use is that providing access to the public land is drastically diminishing the value of they’re property which I’d say is their problem but I’m not sure what a judge would say.
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Agreed
 
I really doubt this would ever go as far as using imminent domain either unless the agency that owns the land had reason to push it that far because of needing access to the land which in reality they should have but apparently they don’t really care it seems like.
 
N_Corey said:
I really doubt this would ever go as far as using imminent domain either unless the agency that owns the land had reason to push it that far because of needing access to the land which in reality they should have but apparently they don’t really care it seems like.
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If you don’t think eminent domain will be sought, I don’t either, now you’re back to a negotiated easement. I can tell you $2,05 won’t cut it with a group mostly of out of state NR Billionaire landowners.
 
I’m hoping there isn’t a need for any easements and they rule that corner crossing is legal as it isn’t harming the landowners at all. I don’t think there’s an amount most of these landowners would be willing to take for a legal easement. Right now they get the benefit of having control and access to way more land than they actually own.
 
N_Corey said:
I’m hoping there isn’t a need for any easements and they rule that corner crossing is legal as it isn’t harming the landowners at all. I don’t think there’s an amount most of these landowners would be willing to take for a legal easement. Right now they get the benefit of having control and access to way more land than they actually own.
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I as a sportsmen also hope that. You also though have to be willing to admit a Judge though could rule it’s not excessively harming but is ILLEGAL and considered trespassing. Then we are back to square one. Possibly even an escalation or taking a step backwards as there may be enforcement by other counties. If this occurs then either negotiating with certain landowners ie biggest bang for the buck cases trying to secure those parcels with the largest size or potential amount of newly accessible public acreage. The last solution which is highly unlikely in Wyoming is a legislative action and that’s a two way street. My guess is the Stock Growers Association who has great power in Wyoming will push for a legislative action if they receive an unfavorable ruling. To date both sides have tried and neither sides bills ever made it out of committee. This case is certainly very important but it likely won’t be the end of the matter. I can say $2.05 won’t cut it……
 
highfastflyer said:
I as a sportsmen also hope that. You also though have to be willing to admit a Judge though could rule it’s not excessively harming but is ILLEGAL and considered trespassing. Then we are back to square one. Possibly even an escalation or taking a step backwards as there may be enforcement by other counties. If this occurs then either negotiating with certain landowners ie biggest bang for the buck cases trying to secure those parcels with the largest size or potential amount of newly accessible public acreage. The last solution which is highly unlikely in Wyoming is a legislative action and that’s a two way street. My guess is the Stock Growers Association who has great power in Wyoming will push for a legislative action if they receive an unfavorable ruling. To date both sides have tried and neither sides bills ever made it out of committee. This case is certainly very important but it likely won’t be the end of the matter. I can say $2.05 won’t cut it……
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I never stated that $2.05 would fly. I merely stated that if the same method used to calculate the utility easement across my land and hundreds of others for the same transmission line were used, the value would come to $2.05 and that this is the typical method for calculating the value of an easement.

How would you calculate the value of a 9 square foot easement? Keep in mind that there are 43,560 square feet in an acre.
 
SanJuanSlayer said:
I never stated that $2.05 would fly. I merely stated that if the same method used to calculate the utility easement across my land and hundreds of others for the same transmission line were used, the value would come to $2.05 and that this is the typical method for calculating the value of an easement.

How would you calculate the value of a 9 square foot easement? Keep in mind that there are 43,560 square feet in an acre.
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I already answered that but here goes again………You keep touting this 9 square foot easement. Besides your payment offer being a joke and laughable you likely wouldn’t get an agreement on a mere 3’ X 3’ at each corner pin. Many horses are wider than that. The North Dakota model would be considered the Cadillac exemplary model and premiere example to try and pattern after. They have a 33 feet wide easement along every section so it’s actually 66 feet wide but each section owner has an easement across 33 feet for the entire length of the section. Using your valuations of $10,000 per acre is 33X 5280=174240 feet so about 4 acres per side of each section or about $40K per side. Take into consideration we are dealing with not hundreds but thousands of sections across the West.
 
SanJuanSlayer said:
How would you calculate the value of a 9 square foot easement? Keep in mind that there are 43,560 square feet in an acre.
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That seems, to be the million dollar question with no solid answer
Guess it boils down to what the rancher/owner is willing to accept vs what sportsman are willing to pay what 1 person thinks is, fair another might think its not enough
Highest bidder wins the prize
 
highfastflyer said:
I already answered that but here goes again………You keep touting this 9 square foot easement. Besides your payment offer being a joke and laughable you likely wouldn’t get an agreement on a mere 3’ X 3’ at each corner pin. Many horses are wider than that. The North Dakota model would be considered the Cadillac exemplary model and premiere example to try and pattern after. They have a 33 feet wide easement along every section so it’s actually 66 feet wide but each section owner has an easement across 33 feet for the entire length of the section. Using your valuations of $10,000 per acre is 33X 5280=174240 feet so about 4 acres per side of each section or about $40K per side. Take into consideration we are dealing with not hundreds but thousands of sections across the West.
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As I have stated multiple times, I am talking about a 6' wide pedestrian easement which would be plenty to get a horse through.

Why on earth would you buy a mile long easement on property directly adjacent to public land? You do realize that we just need to get across the corner, not the entire section right?

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There is no reason to go 33'. Even if there was your math is horribly wrong as a 33' easement would result in a 263 square foot infringement or roughly .6% of an acre. At $10,000 an acre that would be $60.37.

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SanJuanSlayer said:
As I have stated multiple times, I am talking about a 6' wide pedestrian easement which would be plenty to get a horse through.



There is no reason to go 33'. Even if there was your math is horribly wrong as a 33' easement would result in a 263 square foot infringement or roughly 6% of an acre.
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First you say a 9 square foot easement, now you ask for a 6X 6 feet square easement, neither will accommodate a vehicle if a future road were to be built. You have to look at the future, remember we are in this mess as in 1869 nobody was looking out for potential future conflicts. Whatever type of easement we end up settling on it has to be something we can ensure public access for future generations. North Dakota has that model. It’s a 33 foot wide easement the entire length of every section, this prevents any potential corner hopping issues, allows for future growth and allows minerals, timber or other precious metal access. A $2.05 payoff won’t cut it. Start with 10K and you might have a few voluntary takers.
 
highfastflyer said:
First you say a 9 square foot easement, now you ask for a 6X 6 feet square easement, neither will accommodate a vehicle if a future road were to be built. You have to look at the future, remember we are in this mess as in 1869 nobody was looking out for potential future conflicts. Whatever type of easement we end up settling on it has to be something we can ensure public access for future generations. North Dakota has that model. It’s a 33 foot wide easement the entire length of every section, this prevents any potential corner hopping, allows for future growth and allows minerals, timber or other precious metal access. A $2.05 payoff won’t cut it. Start with 10K and you might have a few voluntary takers.
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Nothing has changed in what I'm saying. A 6' wide easement would result in a 9 square foot infringement. I even sketched it out for you so you could understand.

No one is going to volunteer to sell a permanent easement for 10K when they can make that every year selling hunts on public.
 
Those ranches for sure don't want a bunch of vehicles rolling around back in their Public owned private play grounds!
 
Looks like Big Ag. trying to block the TF from reviewing Corner Hopping policy during the TF.

“Task Force Won't Consider Corner Crossings

Out of the gate Co-Chair Rusty Bell said the TF would not discuss the issue of Corner Crossings, which was on the agenda. Mr. Bell cited the ongoing litigation over the Carbon County case as the reason.Though this is a huge issue with resident hunters, the sportsmen representatives on the Task Force remained silent. The current law is established by statute, which is decided by the legislature and signed by the Governor. The Task Force absolutely could have taken up this issue, which could open up access to thousand of acres of public land for resident hunters, but did nothing.

Landowners don't own the airspace above their land and making corner crossing clearly legal would open up thousands of acres of public land to sportsman, mountain athletes, and all outdoor lovers. Landowners will fight this as isolated blocks of public land become essentially private if there is no access.”

A summary of the latest TF meeting. https://www.307hunter.com/articles/...-9010-possible-compromise-for-deerelkantelope
 
Though it may not be legally precedent setting it could have strong implications for future counties trying to prosecute, A favorable ruling would be a de facto admittance that you cannot impede access going from Federal to Federal lands. We also need to remember the Albany county case where the Circuit Judge determined corner hopping was not illegal. If the Judge does agree and dismisses then you’d have to have some strong additional circumstances to ever even think as a DA to go after and prosecute one of these cases in the future. Sportsmen would have to think twice though about going from State to State or BLM to State lands. The good news is that 60K fund might have a bunch of funds leftover to get dumped into Access Yes with the leftover funds.
 
"But Grende was dissatisfied and said, after discussions about the law, that if the Wyoming Supreme Court deemed corner crossing legal, the ranch owner would take extra steps to obstruct, prevent or block access to public lands. A body camera worn by a sheriff’s deputy recorded conversations, the motion states."

What a dick.
 
Here in Utah it seems to me that the game and fish dept watches and patrols private property more so than they do our public lands.To me that is BS.Do the job you were hired to do,Protect our wildlife not some rich persons private property;)
 
WapitiBob said:
"But Grende was dissatisfied and said, after discussions about the law, that if the Wyoming Supreme Court deemed corner crossing legal, the ranch owner would take extra steps to obstruct, prevent or block access to public lands. A body camera worn by a sheriff’s deputy recorded conversations, the motion states."

What a dick.
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I agree. I think I saw somewhere it was mentioned they would have some kinda concrete wall erected idk.
 
I will draw a tag up there this year. Maybe I'll go jump that corner with the rest of the masses! That ranch is going to look worse than 2nd season CO rifle!

I bet he will have a dozer backed up to it all september.
 
You guys obviously didn't read the part about federal law prohibiting private land owners blocking anyone from moving freely through public land.
 
My guess is area 125 elk hunting will now receive a dramatic POINT CREEP for any future hunters. For years there have been hundreds of leftover licenses available for the area. Those elk and deer are going to be dumb for a few seasons but eventually they’ll know those Corners and section lines better than the hunters……If this case is dismissed and you get a license it will surely be a fun hunt. Curious to see if hunters will be able to find the next section and the additional section corner marker survey pins to get all the way to the TOP of elk mountain. There is an old United Airlines crash site from 1946 near the top of the mountain.https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19460131-0
 
Is this really the one county in WY that a has a sheriff/DA that attempts to enforce criminal trespass? My understanding is the game wardens won’t issue a citation anywhere for this? But idk? Also I would think using ONX w tracks would be your evidence of where u crossed? I mean surely not every corner that is checkerboarded has corner post
 
Thomas11 said:
Is this really the one county in WY that a has a sheriff/DA that attempts to enforce criminal trespass? My understanding is the game wardens won’t issue a citation anywhere for this? But idk? Also I would think using ONX w tracks would be your evidence of where u crossed? I mean surely not every corner that is checkerboarded has corner post
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It is the only one on record with a DA stating they will enforce publicly but privately nobody really knows, most keep silent so you really never know their position and a few admit they have better things to do with their time. Using a GPS with tracks and no corner pin survey located is tantamount to trespassing as for sure you never crossed that true corner. The accuracy of hand held GPS is always off 30-200 feet unless you have a commercial grade GPS and even those have daily issues. The military controls and operates the system and installs a small built in error rate which they have agreed to keep small but nobody has access to those codes except the military. You need to go out before the hunt and locate those corner marker survey pins, if not your taking on much more risk and surely trespassed. Remember in Wyoming it is your responsibility to ensure your position. My guess is many of these big ranches will start installing trail cams in the future and some may even go out and pull out the survey pins which is illegal.
 
grizzly said:
In a criminal case, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
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that was my thought as well. You do not need to share anything and prove anything. Like you said they would have to prove it without a doubt and if there GPS is also off, is it possible that they are wrong and you crossed the right spot?

I would definitely not want to end up using that defense, but I can see it would cast a reasonable doubt.
 
grizzly said:
In a criminal case, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
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In Wyoming the Game and Fish law states you must know where you are at, at all times. If you cross a corner without a survey pin, I can show you where you trespassed if you save the track and try and use that as your defense…..In Wyoming the burden is on the hunter to know for 100% certain he isn't trespassing and a recreational GPS isn't accurate enough. It is up to the individual to know whether or not they are on private or public land. This is why a good defense is crossing a certified and surveyed corner pin…
 
So what is considered an accurate gps and what is not? Is it 100% ok to use a garmin to corner cross without a certified survey pin? There are probably millions of corners in Carbon County without pins. What if the pin or fence corners are wrong? Is it the hunters fault? Lots of unanswered questions that no one truly knows the answers to until there are specific regulations.

I don't think you answered elks96 question. If a hunter's gps and track isn't accurate enough to find the exact spot to cross how is a landowner going to be 100% sure he trespassed if a sheriff took the hunters gps with a track that isn't accurate?
 
jims said:
So what is considered an accurate gps and what is not? Is it 100% ok to use a garmin to corner cross without a certified survey pin? There are probably millions of corners in Carbon County without pins. What if the pin or fence corners are wrong? Is it the hunters fault? Lots of unanswered questions that no one truly knows the answers to until there are specific regulations.

I don't think you answered elks96 question. If a hunter's gps and track isn't accurate enough to find the exact spot to cross how is a landowner going to be 100% sure he trespassed if a sheriff took the hunters gps with a track that isn't accurate?
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There are commercial grade GPS you can buy but even those on certain days and certain atmospheric conditions have issues. In my experience in Carbon County I have found 90% of all the survey corner markers when searching for them. I don’t corner cross during hunting season but have gone on a few Rock hounding excursions. My guess is these large landowners will hire a surveyor and place a trail cam along with ranch hands patrolling during hunting season. The hope would be possibly Access Yes or outdoor groups like TRCP will pay to have better markings and signs. Also realize this only applies from BLM to BLM, if you are corner hopping state lands or BLM to state you may have a different outcome. https://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/
 
highfastflyer said:
In Wyoming the Game and Fish law states you must know where you are at, at all times. If you cross a corner without a survey pin, I can show you where you trespassed if you save the track and try and use that as your defense…..In Wyoming the burden is on the hunter to know for 100% certain he isn't trespassing and a recreational GPS isn't accurate enough. It is up to the individual to know whether or not they are on private or public land. This is why a good defense is crossing a certified and surveyed corner pin…
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The charges aren't WYGF charges. They're criminal trespassing charges. G&F can't put something in the proclamation that requires a defendant to prove their innocence. That goes against the very foundation of our legal system.

The point of the G&F rule is to say it's not the duty of the landowner to post their property, but that doesn't mean that a hunter can be cited for hunting on public property. Notice that WYGF doesn't prosecute for corner crossing.
 
grizzly is correct here. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecution. So if there is a criminal case that hinges on the precise location of the defendant, that's up to the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt. If a sheriff, warden, etc. ever asks to see your tracks/gps/whatever, even if you know you were not trespassing, I'd strongly advise against giving/sharing anything.
 
Another good idea I heard about would be to quietly organize a big group of people in different states and have them cross the corners. Make an anonymous call reporting the trespassing and when the law enforcement shows up, have all your ducks in a row with GPS, maps, permits, identification and all of that. If they are overwhelmed with grey area trespassing cases that will be thrown out of court, they will be a no show or very careful for the next trespassing call. In order for it to really work, it’s important to have the people that are corner crossing not be white. There has to be race or gender involved for it to really go anywhere. If they are some other oppressed group like any minority, gay, or women then we could use that to our advantage because the press loves a case of discrimination and it will scare the courts away from being anywhere near it if it means charges to a gay couple or a single black dad with his son. That would be a headline that cripples any landowners refusal to public land. We could also use the arrest or fines as a way for us to virtue signal how horrible this is and we score points being a voice for the people treated unfairly.
 
Captain_coues said:
Another good idea I heard about would be to quietly organize a big group of people in different states and have them cross the corners. Make an anonymous call reporting the trespassing and when the law enforcement shows up, have all your ducks in a row with GPS, maps, permits, identification and all of that. If they are overwhelmed with grey area trespassing cases that will be thrown out of court, they will be a no show or very careful for the next trespassing call. In order for it to really work, it’s important to have the people that are corner crossing not be white. There has to be race or gender involved for it to really go anywhere. If they are some other oppressed group like any minority, gay, or women then we could use that to our advantage because the press loves a case of discrimination and it will scare the courts away from being anywhere near it if it means charges to a gay couple or a single black dad with his son. That would be a headline that cripples any landowners refusal to public land. We could also use the arrest or fines as a way for us to virtue signal how horrible this is and we score points being a voice for the people treated unfairly.
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That's the dumbest fuggin' thing I've ever heard.
 
grizzly said:
The charges aren't WYGF charges. They're criminal trespassing charges. G&F can't put something in the proclamation that requires a defendant to prove their innocence. That goes against the very foundation of our legal system.

The point of the G&F rule is to say it's not the duty of the landowner to post their property, but that doesn't mean that a hunter can be cited for hunting on public property. Notice that WYGF doesn't prosecute for corner crossing.
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Yes, in this particular case these charges are criminal but someone who trespasses and not merely jumps a survey pin will not be afforded that luxury. Some hunters have claimed they were trying to cross a corner and been wildly off by sometimes up to 200 to 300 yards and the Game Wardens have written citations for those, The point being if you are legitimately corner crossing an established corner then they won’t get involved but if you trespass and mistakenly miss the corner they write many citations for those blatant types of trespass. This is listed as one of the top 10 violations by Game and fish.

This is a direct quote from the Game and Fish website.
”Wyoming law states that no person shall enter upon private property to hunt, fish, or trap without the permission of the owner or person in charge of the property. It is the responsibility of the person fishing or hunting to know if the land is public or private.” https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Fishing-Update/Fishing-Access-What-is-trespassing
 
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For it to be a G&F violation, the actual hunting must take place on the private property. They have clearly said that it may be a criminal trespass, but it isn't a hunting violation as long as the hunting takes place on public property.



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grizzly said:
For it to be a G&F violation, the actual hunting must take place on the private property. They have clearly said that it may be a criminal trespass, but it isn't a hunting violation as long as the hunting takes place on public property.
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If you are walking across private property and you missed the corner by 200 yards and your rifle is on your shoulder with a magazine full of bullets, you aren’t going to be able to just claim you were corner crossing and get away with it. Hunting on private property is one of the too 10 game and fish violations. They literally write dozens of these types of citations every year. The responsibility rests entirely on the hunter, angler or trapper to know where he is and whether permission to enter private property has been granted. Nearly all Wyoming Game and Fish laws are strict liability. Trespass to hunt, fish or trap is an example of a Wyoming statute in which intent need not be shown.
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highfastflyer said:
If you are walking across private property and you missed the corner by 200 yards and your rifle is on your shoulder with a magazine full of bullets, you aren’t going to be able to just claim you were corner crossing and get away with it. Hunting on private property is one of the too 10 game and fish violations. They literally write dozens of these types of citations every year. The responsibility rests entirely on the hunter, angler or trapper to know where he is and whether permission to enter private property has been granted. Nearly all Wyoming Game and Fish laws are strict liability. Trespass to hunt, fish or trap is an example of a Wyoming statute in which intent need not be shown. View attachment 66818
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Wtf are you even talking about commercial grade gps bs? Game and fish use the same maps we do on our GPS not every corner has a survey marker either. You blow allot of hot air
 
BuzzH said:
First decent wind would have those bent 90 degrees right at the ground.

Obviously you've never spent much time around elk mountain...
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So would you recommend the coastal 20s? I hear they can withstand hurricane force winds. :ROFLMAO:
 
I told the local warden I was gonna corner cross, he told me to keep a track and if the LO showed up, to video it. "Hunter harassment is is a chargeable offense in WY" is what he said.
 
highfastflyer said:
There are commercial grade GPS you can buy but even those on certain days and certain atmospheric conditions have issues. In my experience in Carbon County I have found 90% of all the survey corner markers when searching for them. I don’t corner cross during hunting season but have gone on a few Rock hounding excursions. My guess is these large landowners will hire a surveyor and place a trail cam along with ranch hands patrolling during hunting season. The hope would be possibly Access Yes or outdoor groups like TRCP will pay to have better markings and signs. Also realize this only applies from BLM to BLM, if you are corner hopping state lands or BLM to state you may have a different outcome. https://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/
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You are totally wrong.

The selective variability was turned off during the Clinton administration...and has not been turned on again. Prior to that, I had a military grade gps, a plgr, that differentially corrected in the field. I also could make the corrections via GIS using base station coords.

Try your Google machine again...
 
Bookhead said:
Wtf are you even talking about commercial grade gps bs? Game and fish use the same maps we do on our GPS not every corner has a survey marker either. You blow allot of hot air
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I’ve never met a Game Warden yet who would corner cross. Your ignorance of commercial grade survey GPS units is apparent. Go ahead and trespass across a corner without a survey marker with a watchful land owner nearby and we’ll se who’s arse gets the hot air let out of it…….
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BuzzH said:
You are totally wrong.

The selective variability was turned off during the Clinton administration...and has not been turned on again. Prior to that, I had a military grade gps, a plgr, that differentially corrected in the field. I also could make the corrections via GIS using base station coords.

Try your Google machine again...
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Ok, I stand corrected on the military built in error rate, never knew they removed that but there is a difference in accuracy between a two channel commercial grade surveyor GPS and a handheld. Using two GPS frequencies improves accuracy by correcting signal distortions caused by Earth's atmosphere. Dual-frequency GPS equipment is commercially available for civilian use, but its cost and size has limited it to professional applications. Even the best GPS only have a 6.6 foot accuracy rate, many handhelds are off by hundreds of feet.
 
I’ve never come across a corner of a blm section that wasn’t pinned but maybe there are some out there as I definitely haven’t seen anywhere near all of them.
 
N_Corey said:
I’ve never come across a corner of a blm section that wasn’t pinned but maybe there are some out there as I definitely haven’t seen anywhere near all of them.
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I’ve found about 90% of them but many times I wander around in grid like patterns obviously trespassing in circles trying to find them. Trying to find some of them has taken me hours. Sometimes it’s a big challenge just to find them. That’s why Ive never done it during hunting season though I have done it during the spring and summer out Rock hounding.
 
Bookhead said:
Wtf are you even talking about commercial grade gps bs? Game and fish use the same maps we do on our GPS not every corner has a survey marker either. You blow allot of hot air
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He is correct here. You cannot accurately cross corners with a phone and onx. You need a 3K gps system that is getting corrections from a base station. I agree that wardens and county sheriffs can't do any better, but if a landowner knows the exact corner and it is unmarked then they could tale photos of you 10-30 feet away from the corner.
 
It seems like the entire conversation, the legislative one, the Fish and Game one, the landowner one, the sport hunter one, the bar and grill one, the beauty shop one and the internet social media one are collective evidence the access to public land regulations are a total cluster and it’s long long past time someone with ultimate authority create a clearly defined regulation. There are enough people, with enough authority and horse sense to resolve public land access laws and they should be imposed upon to do it. It’s going to happen eventually……. for everyone but the landowner, putting it off any longer doesn’t make any sense.
 
2lumpy said:
It seems like the entire conversation, the legislative one, the Fish and Game one, the landowner one, the sport hunter one, the bar and grill one, the beauty shop one and the internet social media one are collective evidence the access to public land regulations are a total cluster and it’s long long past time someone with ultimate authority create a clearly defined regulation. There are enough people, with enough authority and horse sense to resolve public land access laws and they should be imposed upon to do it. It’s going to happen eventually……. for everyone but the landowner, putting it off any longer doesn’t make any sense.
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Have you pondered the implications to the game being run by the lawyers who are legislators, and the hardship that the other lawyers would endure? I don’t see many solutions that simplify the bureaucratic state.

No offense intended to those of you who are lawyers. Viva capitalism!
 
nripepi said:
He is correct here. You cannot accurately cross corners with a phone and onx. You need a 3K gps system that is getting corrections from a base station. I agree that wardens and county sheriffs can't do any better, but if a landowner knows the exact corner and it is unmarked then they could tale photos of you 10-30 feet away from the corner.
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Then they would have to prove their right and I'm wrong then what?
 
Truthfully blue, I hadn’t but it certainly is a factor. It is in almost every legislative issue it seems and shouldn’t be over looked.

These sticky messes all have to find a way through the personalities and their personal losses or rewards, and it darn sure influences their public service behavior. But….. as the issues evolve, due to changes in societal evolution, as this one has, there comes a time………. I’m hoping this one finds it way to the solution resolution round table.

We no longer live in the same kind of agrarian culture we did when these checker board public lands were introduced and the percentage of people depended on farming and ranching for a living. That number is down to near 10% in most States now days. The number of people who accept and support the “old” system has gone from the majority to a tiny minority. That is going to eventually bring this to a head. I’d like to see it will happen while im still here to see the system respond to the change in demography.
 
I still am curious how a landowner is going to prove a hunter trespassed unless they are caught in the act, on video/surveillance cameras, or find tracks, spent shell, or other evidence? If a hunter has his gps tracking turned off and there is no other evidence how is a landowner going to prove without a doubt they trespassed?

Like anything else there are always a few bad apples that will take advantage of any system that will cut corners and trespass if it is deemed legal.
 
jims said:
I still am curious how a landowner is going to prove a hunter trespassed unless they are caught in the act, on video/surveillance cameras, or find tracks, spent shell, or other evidence? If a hunter has his gps tracking turned off and there is no other evidence how is a landowner going to prove without a doubt they trespassed?

Like anything else there are always a few bad apples that will take advantage of any system that will cut corners and trespass if it is deemed legal.
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Trail cams and video surveillance and probably place sand in a 15 foot diameter around the corner pin connected to Wifi activation if available, much of Carbon county in the desert areas have it, the elk mountain area iffy. He has plenty of Ranch hands available though.
 
nripepi said:
Then you get a ticket for tresspassing from the county.
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I don't think so pilgrim. If I cross a corner that's not marked and they show up with the same gps map I have and it also shows I crossed at the corner its most likely gonna end there
 
It would certainly be nice if this court case results in a dismissal or in favor of the hunters so that Sheriff's won't be getting phone calls from landowners and end up in similar court battles! For once and for all it would be nice for hunters to truly know it's ok to cross corners and landowners likely won't win if tickets are issued and they take it to court.

Also, if hunters truly trespass....they should receive tickets and fines!
 
First and foremost, I nobody is looking up sections corners and punching them into a GPS. They're looking at Onx maps zooming in and telling it to take me to the corner.

I recommend you do that prior to hunting season to ensure you have the corner located visually prior to having a bow or rifle in your hands.
 
The question also arises if Onx or other programs will suffice to prove without a doubt in court as evidence used by hunters, sheriffs, and landowners? So many questions…so few answers!
 
Bookhead said:
I don't think so pilgrim. If I cross a corner that's not marked and they show up with the same gps map I have and it also shows I crossed at the corner its most likely gonna end there
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Did you read my post? If they have an unmarked/pinned corner, but they have had it surveyed and know where the corner is and they have a video cam recording the actual corner and you crossing 30 feet away, don't you think that you could get a ticket? I agree if there is a pin and you cross on the pin then no ticket and I agree if they do not have it surveyed then no ticket.
 
nripepi said:
Did you read my post? If they have an unmarked/pinned corner, but they have had it surveyed and know where the corner is and they have a video cam recording the actual corner and you crossing 30 feet away, don't you think that you could get a ticket? I agree if there is a pin and you cross on the pin then no ticket and I agree if they do not have it surveyed then no ticket.
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No because the video camera is dead because the batteries will not last that long. I would suggest they buy a used trail camera form one of the Utah guys.
 
jims said:
The question also arises if Onx or other programs will suffice to prove without a doubt in court as evidence used by hunters, sheriffs, and landowners? So many questions…so few answers!
Click to expand...

Onx is getting you there. It's a tool, a decent one, but no where near exact. There is no way in hell a court could decide the outcome of a case based on ONX or what it gives you. Sames goes for the WY Game and Fish. Also, if it was me, and maybe it will be this fall, I will not have my GPS on. Why?

Onx should get you to the corner, you may trespass in the process, but it should get you close.
 
nripepi said:
Did you read my post? If they have an unmarked/pinned corner, but they have had it surveyed and know where the corner is and they have a video cam recording the actual corner and you crossing 30 feet away, don't you think that you could get a ticket? I agree if there is a pin and you cross on the pin then no ticket and I agree if they do not have it surveyed then no ticket.
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If they have it surveyed, the surveyor will place a new monument based off of other sections corners that were recovered so this in theory, is just "Conjecture" or "an unlikely scenario"
 
Danny_Ocean said:
First and foremost, I nobody is looking up sections corners and punching them into a GPS. They're looking at Onx maps zooming in and telling it to take me to the corner.

I recommend you do that prior to hunting season to ensure you have the corner located visually prior to having a bow or rifle in your hands.
Click to expand...
Prior to OnX making it too easy for everyone to do this I used to load gps coordinates for each corner section into my gps which was a very accurate way of finding corners so your above statement isn’t totally true.
 
To add further to the challenge…… left as it is currently, I’ve been told by a County Attorney, his experience has been, “if three different survey companies are hired to find and mark property lines, boundaries and corners, your most likely going to get three different lines, boundaries, and corners.” I have no idea if that’s true.

The same gentleman told me the established fence line is the boundary because of husbandry laws. So be sure to keep photographs of all your old fences.

This conversation came about due to a dispute with a neighbor on my mountain property, that included both private land and US Forest Land.
 
N_Corey said:
Prior to OnX making it too easy for everyone to do this I used to load gps coordinates for each corner section into my gps which was a very accurate way of finding corners so your above statement isn’t totally true.
Click to expand...

Interesting, as very few if any counties supplied a coordinate listing of section corners that would make any sense to the common user. Very few counties do it today. If you were punching those values into a GPS, I commend you as 1) digging through a counties database back in the day was worse than it is now, and 2) knowing what you were punching in, and getting it to line up with the coordinate system and datum on GPS units back in those days is commendable.
 
2lumpy said:
To add further to the challenge…… left as it is currently, I’ve been told by a County Attorney, his experience has been, “if three different survey companies are hired to find and mark property lines, boundaries and corners, your most likely going to get three different lines, boundaries, and corners.” I have no idea if that’s true.
Click to expand...
My experience is that is correct. Surveyors will use other known points and use those to find the unknown points. What often happens is multiple known points will not reach the same conclusion on the whereabouts of the unknown point.

That's one of the reasons that fences can become boundaries instead of measured distances.
 
I don’t believe you can take possession of public land through adverse possession which would be a fence line that isn’t in the correct place like you can for a bordering private land piece. Also each state has different laws on how long it takes to use adverse possession and it’s generally the responsibility of the person trying to take the land to prove that the item like a fence has been there long enough. In my opinion it’s a pretty shady way to acquire extra land.
 
Danny_Ocean said:
If they have it surveyed, the surveyor will place a new monument based off of other sections corners that were recovered so this in theory, is just "Conjecture" or "an unlikely scenario"
Click to expand...
They could place a marker on the two private property pieces where when you draw a straight line it goes through the corner and then take photos/videos... of people trespassing because the actual corner is not marked. You don't think Elk Mountain and others would do this? The markers would not be visible from the public property.
 
N_Corey said:
I don’t believe you can take possession of public land through adverse possession which would be a fence line that isn’t in the correct place like you can for a bordering private land piece.
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You are correct. Adverse possession does not apply to federal lands.
 
It truly is amazing how very few people understand this issue at all. Look at the comments to the latest article. There is one guy arguing that when a rancher leases the land it is his and that this could all be avoided if the hunters called the rancher and got permission first. He seems to think that a grazing lease gives the land owner total control. Some of the public comments get worse...
 
Write the inaccessible land out of the hunting regulations and write all of the adjacent private land out too. Let the elk and deer eat them out. Make hunting on the private land conditional on access to the public land.
 

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