What effect will removing lion quota have?

BrianID · Dec 19, 2021

What does everyone think?

It will take a couple years before we have data to back up our predictions.

My prediction is that it will significantly increase the number of deer in Idaho until a bad winter kills them off. Something similar was done in the SE region about 20 years ago. The F&G relaxed the quota in the SE region for two years and the number of lions killed doubled both of those years (1998 & 1999). The number of deer significantly increased immediately after the lions were killed (2000 & 2001) Then a bad winter (2001/2002) killed off the deer.

This year in October I was able to hunt in snow several days. I was surprised by how many lion tracks I came across. I have been hunting Idaho for about 30 years and have never seen so many lion tracks. In just one day of hiking I crossed lion tracks about 30 times. I believe there are many more lions in Idaho this fall than there has historically been the last 60 years. It will be interesting see if 2X or even 4X the number of lions are killed this winter compared to last year.

Weiserbucks · Dec 19, 2021

I'm all for it, we need a little relief to our struggling deer. If we kill more cats, they kill less deer. Winter kill will come and go, we cant manage that. But we can and must manage predators.

hawkbill · Dec 20, 2021

It will definitely help, cats are at an all time high throughout the west, what really nocks the cats down is a feline disease ,which we have not seen in awhile

GSJ · Dec 20, 2021

It’ll be helpful. As to how much I’m not certain.

JPickett · Dec 20, 2021

its sure to help but i don't know how much. tough critter for the average guy to have consistent success hunting. i've seen several cats over the years and wasn't until two years ago that i felt like i almost had a chance at one. still gave me the slip

backcountryID · Dec 20, 2021

My hunting partner killed one this fall on a chance encounter while we were elk hunting. I had never put much thought into targeting lions, but after eating some pulled lion slider sandwiches, my interest has dramatically increased.

GSJ · Dec 20, 2021

I’ve actually encountered several over the years while deer hunting. Four were absolute gimmees but I declined to shoot all but one. Was always right in a honey hole and I didn’t wanna blow my cover shooting a cat. I’ve had a couple sorta creepy experiences with those critters. Actually one of those four times I didn’t have a rifle and the cat was way to close for comfort.

BrianID · Dec 20, 2021

Without hounds, it wouldn't really matter how long the season is or bag limit. Without a quota, there are going to be a lot more cats killed this winter by guys with hounds in some units. In many units it won't make a difference but I think in some of the Southern Idaho units it will really help the deer.

Unless you go with a guy with hounds or look for tracks yourself, it will surprise you on how many lions are out there. I've only seen lions on 3 occasions in 30 years of hunting Idaho without the aid of hounds. There are several units that they kill close to 30 lions in a single year. In 2019 there were 62 lions killed in just unit 1. How many lions live in those units to support that kind of harvest year after year? How many deer do those lions eat in those units every year? They are not raising their cubs on grass and berries. Kids shooting a few does is just a drop in the bucket compared to what lions are doing to the deer herds in some units.

Weiserbucks · Dec 20, 2021

I have a few friends with great lion dogs. They've been doing their part for years. After the holidays I'm going to be out with them and take a cat or two.

brdhuntr · Dec 21, 2021

My son in law has some property in unit 44, that has some cats that need to go, and he needs to find a reputable hound guy.

Weiserbucks · Dec 21, 2021

brdhuntr said:
My son in law has some property in unit 44, that has some cats that need to go, and he needs to find a reputable hound guy.

Lots of landowners looking for a hound hunter to kill cats. The problem is that hounds will trail off the property quickly and now the hunter is trespassing. Most people don't understand that hounds can cover miles of rough country in a matter of minutes and 99.9% of private property isn't big enough for a lion race.

N_Corey · Dec 21, 2021

I’ve never paid attention to how quickly the quotas were filled in the units that had quotas. If they were filling the quotas fairly quick then I’d say this will have a significant impact. If it was taking most of the year to fill the previous quota anyways then it probably won’t change things much.

Spome · Dec 21, 2021

hawkbill said:
It will definitely help, cats are at an all time high throughout the west, what really nocks the cats down is a feline disease ,which we have not seen in awhile

Need Wuhan to create a Feline virus

cbat · Dec 21, 2021

We have way to many lions in unit 1. I run cameras for fun through several drainages and everyone has lots of lion pictures on it. Just at our home place we had 4 different lions cross our driveway in less than a 3 week period. Wife and I watched a big tom chase some deer across our pasture. When their territories start overlapping you have to many.

BrianID · Dec 21, 2021

N_Corey said:
I’ve never paid attention to how quickly the quotas were filled in the units that had quotas. If they were filling the quotas fairly quick then I’d say this will have a significant impact. If it was taking most of the year to fill the previous quota anyways then it probably won’t change things much.

In some units the quota would be reached in the 1st week of the 4 month hound hunting season. Some units didn't have a quota and other units the quota often not would be reached in a 4 month hound hunting season.

Zeke · Dec 21, 2021

I voted "significant".
Over time it should have a very positive impact in various units.
If what the experts say is true (1 deer per week, per cat) then over time we will notice a serious improvement in deer numbers.
Seems pretty proactive and should help the struggling deer herds.

Weiserbucks · Dec 21, 2021

Zeke said:
I voted "significant".
Over time it should have a very positive impact in various units.
If what the experts say is true (1 deer per week, per cat) then over time we will notice a serious improvement in deer numbers.
Seems pretty proactive and should help the struggling deer herds.

1 deer per week, per cat, is the old standard. We've come to learn that wolves and coyotes will drive off the cat and claim the kill for themselves. That leaves the cat to go kill again to sustain itself, wolves/coyotes find its kill again. Rinse and repeat.

Idahoron · Dec 23, 2021

It won't have any impact at all. All of the lion hunters I know never shoot cats. All they do is run them. Guys that shoot them without Hounds are an insignificant number.
Unless the hound hunters decide to kill more nothings going to change. If they kill more there will be less to chase.

Weiserbucks · Dec 24, 2021

Idahoron said:
It won't have any impact at all. All of the lion hunters I know never shoot cats. All they do is run them. Guys that shoot them without Hounds are an insignificant number.
Unless the hound hunters decide to kill more nothings going to change. If they kill more there will be less to chase.

There's alot of truth in this post, most hound hunters are very reclusive and seldom hunt with people outside of their close knit group. Hound hunting is a culture all its own and most people don't fit in and never get invited.

El Gringo · Dec 24, 2021

Idahoron said:
It won't have any impact at all. All of the lion hunters I know never shoot cats. All they do is run them. Guys that shoot them without Hounds are an insignificant number.
Unless the hound hunters decide to kill more nothings going to change. If they kill more there will be less to chase.

I don’t know how Idaho allocates areas for Outfitters, but thats the solution for that problem…. Paying clients will shoot cats.

Weiserbucks · Dec 24, 2021

El Gringo said:
I don’t know how Idaho allocates areas for Outfitters, but thats the solution for that problem…. Paying clients will shoot cats.

Not enough paying clients, guided lion hunts cost more than guided elk hunts.

El Gringo · Dec 24, 2021

Weiserbucks said:
Not enough paying clients, guided lion hunts cost more than guided elk hunts.

I’m not sure where you’re pricing Elk hunts, but I’d say this isn’t even close to accurate. Most Lion Hunts are 5500-7500. You might get a Public land Draw or OTC Elk hunt for that price.

Weiserbucks · Dec 24, 2021

El Gringo said:
I’m not sure where you’re pricing Elk hunts, but I’d say this isn’t even close to accurate. Most Lion Hunts are 5500-7500. You might get a Public land Draw or OTC Elk hunt for that price.

Almost every guided hunt in Idaho is public land and OTC. This isn't Utah. There's plenty of elk hunts for $4-5k.

El Gringo · Dec 24, 2021

Weiserbucks said:
Almost every guided hunt in Idaho is public land and OTC. This isn't Utah. There's plenty of elk hunts for $4-5k.

Makes sense, I stand corrected.

Butts · Dec 24, 2021

Weiserbucks said:
There's alot of truth in this post, most hound hunters are very reclusive and seldom hunt with people outside of their close knit group. Hound hunting is a culture all its own and most people don't fit in and never get invited.

Small truths at best , but if there is not a quota….
And a hound hunter is running 13 different canyons. Cat gets treed and said fellow knows whole heartedly that if he doesn’t kill the cat .. JOE blow with dogs will tree and kill the next day … lion hunting community ain’t that tight!

Dynamic will change with open quota s. Regardless if it’s outfitters or guys running dogs.

Think about it? If there was a unit that was managed for little to no lion harvest and then all the great and holy allowed to harvest… I’m not saying Idaho has allowed little to no harvest.,

Think about years ago when Idaho opened general deer units that where historically very limited CH. or when they went from 2 point only to 4 point only in running years on a unit.Same scenario IMO. You will see an influx hounds-men. Period.

The visibility of this change might only happen in small increments throughout the state, it will help. however it will never be supersized to the amount of damage the IDFG has encapsulated its mule deer herds with in a very tight spot ., sorry to go there, but,facts. A DAY LATE AND Thousands of deer lost.
No fault of the lions on their own!

Weiserbucks · Dec 25, 2021

What I mean is that most dog hunters don't invite random people to come kill a lion with them.

Idahoron · Dec 25, 2021

Lion hunters are that tight. They run cats harvest is low on their agenda.

BrianID · Dec 26, 2021

Idahoron said:
It won't have any impact at all. All of the lion hunters I know never shoot cats. All they do is run them. Guys that shoot them without Hounds are an insignificant number.
Unless the hound hunters decide to kill more nothings going to change. If they kill more there will be less to chase.

There is some truth to this but I still think there will be a significant increase of lions killed in certain units. I’m willing to put $$ down as a bet on certain units if you want to take it. Some units it will have no effect on the number of lions killed. If you look at history, 20 years ago the quota was relaxed in the SE region for two years. For those 2 years there were twice as many lions killed in the SE region. It put a serious dent in the lion population and did help the deer significantly. There are going to be many more lions killed in the SE region this winter. It will make some of the hound hunters mad but we have had way too many lions in the SE region for a few years.

BrianID · Dec 26, 2021

Idahoron said:
Lion hunters are that tight. They run cats harvest is low on their agenda.

Lion hunters are a tight group but I’ve been able to make friends with some and killed a lion with the help of their dogs. I also helped some other friends get set up with some hound hunters to kill lions.
Hound hunting takes more physical work, time and $$ than most hunters realize. It is much more of a commitment than hunting deer.

Weiserbucks · Dec 26, 2021

BrianID said:
It is much more of a commitment than hunting deer.

It's not just a commitment, dog hunting is a lifestyle all It's own. I did it for many years myself. 99% of people will never understand the commitment and costs involved, and I'm not talking about money.

hawkbill · Dec 26, 2021

I also ran dogs for a lot of years and I did let a lot of lions go, like weiser said most people will never understand but I’ve killed more than anyone else I know

muleyczy · Dec 27, 2021

It can’t hurt, but agree guys who run lions would rather do just that than kill more.

Butts · Dec 27, 2021

Idahoron said:
Lion hunters are that tight. They run cats harvest is low on their agenda.

Not in coming years they won’t. I see what your saying. I’m not saying it will be double, but Idaho will see an uptick in cats harvested.

dgwoody · Dec 29, 2021

My experience has been that most guys running dogs aren’t that interested in bringing a shooter along. Seems like some are nervous to get in trouble with the F&G. Just had a conversation earlier today with a coworker trying to trade some snowmobile parts and labor for a guy to run some lions and the guys response to him was “You undercover for the fish and game or something?” Kind of an odd response to an innocent trade proposition.

andrew12gauge · Dec 30, 2021

dgwoody said:
My experience has been that most guys running dogs aren’t that interested in bringing a shooter along. Seems like some are nervous to get in trouble with the F&G. Just had a conversation earlier today with a coworker trying to trade some snowmobile parts and labor for a guy to run some lions and the guys response to him was “You undercover for the fish and game or something?” Kind of an odd response to an innocent trade proposition.

Considering that my buddy told me it would technically be illegal for me to even fill his fuel tank on the way to or from cat hunting I can see why a stranger offering those kinds of things might be viewed negatively

Forthejustice · Jan 13, 2022

Spome said:
Need Wuhan to create a Feline virus

Don’t discriminate.. those poor wolves and suffering grizzly populations need a bug too.

Forthejustice · Jan 14, 2022

BrianID said:
What does everyone think?

It will take a couple years before we have data to back up our predictions.

My prediction is that it will significantly increase the number of deer in Idaho until a bad winter kills them off. Something similar was done in the SE region about 20 years ago. The F&G relaxed the quota in the SE region for two years and the number of lions killed doubled both of those years (1998 & 1999). The number of deer significantly increased immediately after the lions were killed (2000 & 2001) Then a bad winter (2001/2002) killed off the deer.

This year in October I was able to hunt in snow several days. I was surprised by how many lion tracks I came across. I have been hunting Idaho for about 30 years and have never seen so many lion tracks. In just one day of hiking I crossed lion tracks about 30 times. I believe there are many more lions in Idaho this fall than there has historically been the last 60 years. It will be interesting see if 2X or even 4X the number of lions are killed this winter compared to last year.

I’ve been trying to research anything and everything about predator management and predators effects on an ecosystems to understand why…

I understand the idea of trophic cascade… but being humans are really the top predator... are wolves and grizzlies and lions necessary? Or just fill a liberal agenda?

No, I’m not suggesting hunting them all.. (just most. Sorry.. too soon? )but clearly we have problems otherwise this wouldn’t even be a topic of discussion for lion quotas.

I don’t think we would see someone pull the “they were here first” on this forum but in case someone wants to pull that.. don’t.

Pretty sure non-resident otc tags affect deer numbers harder than lions do. I don’t want to see a “it’s about the money.” There is no reason Idaho g&f can’t be profitable.

Money is an easy fix. Man/woman power easy fix. Predation easy fix. Idaho’s priorities for Resident hunters Vs non resident revenue…. Easy.. let’s discuss.

What does everyone think?

BrianID said:
It will take a couple years before we have data to back up our predictions.

My prediction is that it will significantly increase the number of deer in Idaho until a bad winter kills them off. Something similar was done in the SE region about 20 years ago. The F&G relaxed the quota in the SE region for two years and the number of lions killed doubled both of those years (1998 & 1999). The number of deer significantly increased immediately after the lions were killed (2000 & 2001) Then a bad winter (2001/2002) killed off the deer.

This year in October I was able to hunt in snow several days. I was surprised by how many lion tracks I came across. I have been hunting Idaho for about 30 years and have never seen so many lion tracks. In just one day of hiking I crossed lion tracks about 30 times. I believe there are many more lions in Idaho this fall than there has historically been the last 60 years. It will be interesting see if 2X or even 4X the number of lions are killed this winter compared to last year.

Weiserbucks · Jan 14, 2022

Forthejustice said:
I’ve been trying to research anything and everything about predator management and predators effects on an ecosystems to understand why…

I understand the idea of trophic cascade… but being humans are really the top predator... are wolves and grizzlies and lions necessary? Or just fill a liberal agenda?

No, I’m not suggesting hunting them all.. (just most. Sorry.. too soon? )but clearly we have problems otherwise this wouldn’t even be a topic of discussion for lion quotas.

I don’t think we would see someone pull the “they were here first” on this forum but in case someone wants to pull that.. don’t.

Pretty sure non-resident otc tags affect deer numbers harder than lions do. I don’t want to see a “it’s about the money.” There is no reason Idaho g&f can’t be profitable.

Money is an easy fix. Man/woman power easy fix. Predation easy fix. Idaho’s priorities for Resident hunters Vs non resident revenue…. Easy.. let’s discuss.

What does everyone think?

What in the blue hell are you babbling about?

Forthejustice · Jan 14, 2022

Ohhh come on. You can do better. This post is about lion quotas and their affect on deer populations.

I’ll match your level of effort. This is your freebie. I gave you more effort on this reply than you gave me. Plenty of confrontational topics to choose from. Pick a topic and let’s do this.. or don’t. No hurt feelings.