Applicant numbers and tags

muleymaddness

Very Active Member
Messages
1,102
I’m curious what others think - but how will kids that can’t even apply yet ever be in the game to draw a tag? Or a new hunter that doesn’t have points yet?

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I love hunting Idaho but for whatever reason I have the worst drawing luck there! Three years in a row could not even get through checkout in time to buy the NR capped elk tag I like. Been trying for what looks like an "easy " moose hunt to draw for 9 years now with 1/10 to 1/16 ish odds year to year. But last year I hit a 1/90 something and 1/200 something randoms in WY and NM. Maybe this is the year!
I do like the random tags, It really is like winning the lottery.
 
I bet less than half of those point holders even apply for a tag....don't panic.

Also take advantage of youth only tags and take your kids hunting for birds and small game. Apply for antlerless tags and remember that there are lots of random tags in most states. Apply and roll the dice.
 
Vegas would not take Idahos odds. Is is like the Oakland taking the series. ”so you are saying there is a chance”.
 
They are in the game with an application in the hat in all but a couple states. Youth points are really cheap in several states also.
I have tried to tell this to friends that keep stacking points in various while not reaching out for a great tag while they are it. You hit those really good tags you change your plans up and make it happen, half my tags in the 15 years of being in this game were unexpected randoms. I wish I got on the ground floor on these points but started after college.
 
There should be no such thing as points. A draw should be a random draw. May Idaho never change
You must be a Idaho res ?
in my endeavor every thing crashed , then crashed again, Unit 10 ( Lolo) had some tags but low population numbers and success ratios
 
You must be a Idaho res ?
in my endeavor every thing crashed , then crashed again, Unit 10 ( Lolo) had some tags but low population numbers and success ratios
If you are going to hunt the Lolo during rifle season, you've got your work cut out. Last time I was there, we never cut a track in 3 days. On the other hand, I called 5 bulls in 2 days on the archery hunt. Problem was it is sooo thick we couldn't get a shot even though most of them were less than 30 yards.
 
You must be a Idaho res ?
in my endeavor every thing crashed , then crashed again, Unit 10 ( Lolo) had some tags but low population numbers and success ratios
i think our confusing buying capped tads with limited entry drawings. but yes im a res, and im all for whatever makes it more difficult for non resident hunters to come here. :whistle:
 
There is no easy answer for sure. Too many of us want to hunt with a limited number of permits.
If tags are totally random, is it any more "fair" for a first time kid applicant to walk to the front of the line and draw a tag, while a "grey hair" continues to be unsuccessful after 60 years of applications?

When point systems started no one could realistically foretell the continued increase in demand for the consistently declining tag numbers. I think we all knew there would be point creep, but none of us could really tell to what extent.

I have grandkids now and for sure I worry about their hunting opportunities going forward. I will do everything I can to help them get opportunities including helping fund, or mentoring a tag.
But what is fair?
Should we drop points and screw everyone who has been waiting in line for years? No easy solutions.
 
If you're a NR putting in for AZ hunts 5% of the 10% cap goes to the random draw, and if you're a R 80% goes to the random draw. If you look at the draw reports that AZ puts out you'll see that 80% of AZ tags go to people with relatively low bonus points.
 
Screw the kids. Get me MY tag. The future of hunting is now!
Thats, exactly my feeling, i don't have kids, and i do not give 2 shits about anyone elses, thier future is not my problem,never will be.
i live/hunt in the here and now screw their future kill um all
 
I’m curious what others think - but how will kids that can’t even apply yet ever be in the game to draw a tag? Or a new hunter that doesn’t have points yet?

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They can't, that's the point. Those that got in early have the advantage and they only care about themselves. There is no thought about the future, only now. Same goes for the economy and for hunting in several western states. Be great if the house I paid $25k magicaly become worth $1.5 mil a few decades later for no reason, no other generation will have that. Just like future generations won't have hunting in this country but once in a lifetime. Heck only in 10 years I've seen many areas go from draw every year to every 10+ years. Will only get worst, adapt or be the change that stops it.
 
They can't, that's the point. Those that got in early have the advantage and they only care about themselves. There is no thought about the future, only now. Same goes for the economy and for hunting in several western states. Be great if the house I paid $25k magicaly become worth $1.5 mil a few decades later for no reason, no other generation will have that. Just like future generations won't have hunting in this country but once in a lifetime. Heck only in 10 years I've seen many areas go from draw every year to every 10+ years. Will only get worst, adapt or be the change that stops it.
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These type of plans were dreamt up decades ago, and we are seeing now that they DO NOT WORK. Its a sad state of affairs.

All Limited Entry type big game tags will one day be OIL tags. Waiting periods obviously don't work at all in curbing point creep.

Plenty of other threads talk about how to 'fix' this issue... I'll just plan on my kids never hunting a special area, but if they do get a tag, feel lucky as can be...
 
One thing that could still be done is to put a cap on the max number of possible points you can collect for each species. If it were set at 30, for example, then a kid would have to wait until they are 42 or 44 to have best possible odds, which is not really unreasonable IMO. No other change necessary.
 
Take away the “Trophy” and kids have plenty of opportunity.
Couldn’t agree more! There is so much opportunity for everyone, not just youth hunters, yet so many people seem to think the only tags worth hunting take max points to draw. I guess I should be grateful, because while many guys complain about never getting drawn, it makes it easier for me to have several wonderful adventures on mediocre tags all over the west every year.
 
There is no easy answer for sure. Too many of us want to hunt with a limited number of permits.
If tags are totally random, is it any more "fair" for a first time kid applicant to walk to the front of the line and draw a tag, while a "grey hair" continues to be unsuccessful after 60 years of applications?

When point systems started no one could realistically foretell the continued increase in demand for the consistently declining tag numbers. I think we all knew there would be point creep, but none of us could really tell to what extent.

I have grandkids now and for sure I worry about their hunting opportunities going forward. I will do everything I can to help them get opportunities including helping fund, or mentoring a tag.
But what is fair?
Should we drop points and screw everyone who has been waiting in line for years? No easy solutions.

When you buy a powerball in Idaho do your odds improve if you've bought Powerball tickets years prior.?

Of course the grey hairs who set up the system knew that were advantaging themselves at the expense of the unborn. That was the whole point. They had the power, the kids and unborn didn't.

My son's b day is Dec 26. His buddies is Jan 04. Their in the same grade, same age same age for 356 days a year, yet his buddy, if he hunted, would always be one point behind. Not for any other reason than my boy, came a week early. That's the stupidity of the point system.

Anyone that could do math, knew that those on the ground floor, would draw tags at a much faster rate in the begining, even with waiting periods.

The only FAIR draw is when EVERY hunter has the EXACT same chance as any other.
The color of your hair, or the date of when your parents got frisky, is assinine.
 
These type of plans were dreamt up decades ago, and we are seeing now that they DO NOT WORK. Its a sad state of affairs.

All Limited Entry type big game tags will one day be OIL tags. Waiting periods obviously don't work at all in curbing point creep.

Plenty of other threads talk about how to 'fix' this issue... I'll just plan on my kids never hunting a special area, but if they do get a tag, feel lucky as can be...
They pretty much are now.

I have an 11yr old. Given the rate of creep, combined with the point totals currently, the top end hunts, like Pauns for deer, or San Juan for elk, are definitely OIL. And honestly lower tier units, like the Manti, are pretty close once you figure in waiting periods.

Oil tags, are a moonshot.

Which is sad, because I know SEVERAL older dudes in Utah who are into their fourth OIL.
 
One thing that could still be done is to put a cap on the max number of possible points you can collect for each species. If it were set at 30, for example, then a kid would have to wait until they are 42 or 44 to have best possible odds, which is not really unreasonable IMO. No other change necessary.


Then you just have a whole bunch of dudes with 30 points?

Could just set everyone at 0 and do same thing
 
We all have the chance to hunt every year. It may not be the dream tag or unit, but we get to go do it.
I do agree with the point that some states are ridiculous. The point creep is ridiculous too. So I won't hunt those states for a while, if ever.
 
I Colorado, the PP system works well until you get past about 5 points. Makes it easy to plan a hunt with a low number of points needed, say 2 or 3 points to draw. Also makes it easy to plan with a group

Beyond that, it breaks down in overall fairness.
 
Some states are trying to weed out the higher point holders, by giving them extra chances, albeit slowly. Nevada squares the number of points and Texas is now cubing their loyalty points!!
 
I Colorado, the PP system works well until you get past about 5 points. Makes it easy to plan a hunt with a low number of points needed, say 2 or 3 points to draw. Also makes it easy to plan with a group

Beyond that, it breaks down in overall fairness.
And the deer getting killed on 2 and 3 point tags lately are often every bit as good, or better, as the tags that take 20 points.
 
I raised 5 kids and damn few of their wonderful, countless hunts were Limited Entry or Once in a Lifetime outings.
There's tons of opportunity for young hunters that don't break the bank for dad and mom! Get creative you parents!
Like one poster said "take the "trophy" out of the hunt and the kids can hunt something all fall long"!
Will the kiddies draw one of the coveted tags in the future? I have no idea but attrition is on their side since all of the grey hair guys will be long gone and/or draw out of the pool.
Buy the kids points and apply every single year if they seek a trophy hunt. Time is on their side.
In Utah, half+ of the tags are random anyway. By removing all the points will encourage even more applicants for a resource which is outstripped by demand and will be forevermore.
Think this through and agree or not but it's reality.

Zeke
 
I don’t know, Utahs system is not so bad. I have drawn 2 LE elk tags and about due for my third (4th if you count my expo tag), 1 LE deer tag and have 4 points towards my next one, 1 LE antelope tag with 1 point towards my next one, 1 LE bear tag and should draw again this year.

My son drew a random LE deer tag last year and my daughters boyfriend drew a OIL tag last year with 2 points.

You can draw tags if you want to hunt. If you only want premium tags you will wait a very long time for your 1 tag. For some it’s worth it. For me it’s not. I prefer to hunt as often as possible and apply accordingly.

Youth have tons of opportunities throughout the west. Reduced tags costs, cheap points, youth only tags, antlerless hunts.

Life is to short to build points.
 
There are youth opportunities.

Why? Is it because at some point the screw job point systems put on them became obvious so we felt guilty?

Which do you think would entice kids more. Drawing a San Juan tag in a total random draw, or an antlerless tag in Manti?

If these opportunities are truly so great, why not reverse the point system, have it greatly favor the kids, and all the old guys, who have had opportunity, can have antlerless tags and anybull chances?

Oh, that's right. Easier to piss on a kids leg and tell him it's raining. They can't vote, and don't have much recourse otherwise.

We don't need a single youth "opportunity" if the youth get treated the same as everyone else. Them drawing OIL and LE tags will take care of it
 
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Kids have plenty of opportunity. Let them build points and hunt easy to draw tags yearly. This complaint of the kids can’t hunt is a parent problem. If you don’t like the point system, put them in for Idaho and New Mexico where they still have a bleak chance at drawing the best tags.
 
Kids have plenty of opportunity. Let them build points and hunt easy to draw tags yearly. This complaint of the kids can’t hunt is a parent problem. If you don’t like the point system, put them in for Idaho and New Mexico where they still have a bleak chance at drawing the best tags.


That's not the argument AT ALL.

You can simply replace "kids" in your paragraph, and replace it with "old guy" and it's just as true.

The argument isn't whether kids can hunt or not. The argument is why is a LE hunt, for example, more deserved by one hunter, than another, based solely on wrinkles?

Why not set up the point system based on testosterone levels? Fertility levels?

Oh, that's right, old dudes, lacking in both, created the system.

Dudes who say "take them hunting", buy them points. CANT DO MATH.
 
That's not the argument AT ALL.

You can simply replace "kids" in your paragraph, and replace it with "old guy" and it's just as true.

The argument isn't whether kids can hunt or not. The argument is why is a LE hunt, for example, more deserved by one hunter, than another, based solely on wrinkles?

Why not set up the point system based on testosterone levels? Fertility levels?

Oh, that's right, old dudes, lacking in both, created the system.

Dudes who say "take them hunting", buy them points. CANT DO MATH.
All I can do is disagree. I am not defending point systems. Nor am I passionate about my points. If the point states want to revert to random or the random states want points then let them do it. The odds will be difficult either way. I just don’t believe that waiting in line is injustice. If your kids don’t want to wait, have them hunt somewhere else. We have a people problem not a point problem. Too many people all trying for the same San Juan LE tag.
 
"If your old guys don't want to wait, have them hunt somewhere else"

It's not an injustice for older guys to wait either.

But, if it was a wait in line, then maybe.

But that San Juan tag is what 28 points? Given point creep at about 1/2 point a year, that 28 year wait in line for dudes that are maxed out, is a 42 year wait for a 12 yr old.

42 yes + 5yr waiting period makes that San Juan. Tag an OIL for a kid.

And OIL isn't achievable.


When you say Idaho odds are extremely low. Yup.

But you could draw @ 12, 18, 24, etc, etc.

In Utah, that kids only shot is the random side, and the odds on it are in the decimals as well.
 
Switching to a random draw does nothing to increase tag numbers. The same amount of people will still draw annually. Only under the random draw system everyone will be complaining they can’t draw a tag with no end in sight.

The big issue here is that there are nowhere near enough permits for the thousands of applicants. That will never change.

There is not enough upside to change the system. As it is now everyone has a random chance at half the tags in the drawing. That’s about as good as it gets. There is no system in the world that will fix the demand placed on the few tags available.
 
Who asked for more tags? The point is having a chance every year as opposed to every 30 years. Points aren’t for hunters there for money
 
It all comes down to permit numbers no matter how you look at. No one would be complaining if they could draw in a reasonable amount of time.

Going fully random will not change enough in the grand scheme of things to make it worth changing the system when so many are already invested.
 
It all comes down to permit numbers no matter how you look at. No one would be complaining if they could draw in a reasonable amount of time.

Going fully random will not change enough in the grand scheme of things to make it worth changing the system when so many are already invested.
Who cares about an investment in a failed system. No where in the application process has any one been guaranteed their points would amount to squat or even always be there. Blow the whole thing up. The guys that will bich the most will all be dead or too old to hunt in a few years so we don’t have to hear it for long
 
Switching to a random draw does nothing to increase tag numbers. The same amount of people will still draw annually. Only under the random draw system everyone will be complaining they can’t draw a tag with no end in sight.

The big issue here is that there are nowhere near enough permits for the thousands of applicants. That will never change.

There is not enough upside to change the system. As it is now everyone has a random chance at half the tags in the drawing. That’s about as good as it gets. There is no system in the world that will fix the demand placed on the few tags available.


Betting if we let the under 20 crowd vote, they'd disagree
 
As long as there is a random tag available, there is a good chance some low point holder will draw. There are thousands (or even tens of thousands) with low points vs a few with max points. Sheer odds and statistics.
 
It's pretty funny to read these points threads.

1 guy, in all the years I've been here is honest.

Bess.

Everyone else will talk about youth hunts, opportunities, etc.

No one, other than Bess, spots the chit out of their mouth, and talks straight.

If you support point schemes, that obviously benefit older dudes, YOU FRANKLY DONT GIVE A CHIT IF IT SCREWS YOUNGER DUDES.

That's the truth. It was the truth the day these schemes started. It's the truth now.

But NO ONE believes, dudes sitting on points, believes a cow tag, or a youth any bull tag, is the same as an LE tag. Otherwise, they wouldn't be sitting on points.

And further. No I'm one, who puts in for Idaho, or NM, thinks point schemes are the way to go.

This point debate has been lies and spin since day one.
 
Including you there Hoss.

No one is saying the cow tags are the same as an LE tag. No one. Very few old guys with points will ever draw that San Juan tag you keep referencing.

Youth draw LE tags every single year. Youth draw OIL tags every single year. Old guys do too.

Just cause we disagree with your opinion does not mean we’re lying.
 
Sick of people calling it a point scheme but your right. It is a clever way for the agencies to get more money and more participation. However, they aren’t lying to us and we all know the odds and reality of the situation. The only people Biochin are the blue hairs with the points because they have a tough time getting drawn too.
 
New Mexico as much as I hate the way they did non resident unguided hunters a few years ago, has probably the best youth hunts. Before adults and with better weapons and seasons. I did one of the youth elk hunts with my stepdaughter, 13 at the time, in 2013. It was rifle first week of oct, amazing experience for her. There are opportunities out there but between our adult apps and adding in kids apps for multiple states it gets expensive quick. You need a five figure savings account to front everything.
 
Including you there Hoss.

No one is saying the cow tags are the same as an LE tag. No one. Very few old guys with points will ever draw that San Juan tag you keep referencing.

Youth draw LE tags every single year. Youth draw OIL tags every single year. Old guys do too.

Just cause we disagree with your opinion does not mean we’re lying.


No lie here.

Just calling out BS. Anytime it gets said it's a scheme that screws kids and new hunters, the same response, "kids have so much opportunity......."

Im honest. It's a screw job.

No amount of cow tags, changes that.
 
Sick of people calling it a point scheme but your right. It is a clever way for the agencies to get more money and more participation. However, they aren’t lying to us and we all know the odds and reality of the situation. The only people Biochin are the blue hairs with the points because they have a tough time getting drawn too.

"a clever way for the agencies to get more money and more participation" is pretty much the definition of a scheme.

And yes, they did lie. We were gonna draw tags every 5-7 years.

You think, honestly, if they came with a system that said you will draw every 25 years, anyone would have jumped on board?
 
And that Serve, is why it is a real possibility to never draw. And that is also the reason applications climb to a new high every year further reducing your ability to draw...


You're correct.

But look at the points, with point creep, now.

There's a generation coming up who face never drawing, in point states.

You're not going to make everyone happy.

But everyone should be EQUALLY unhappy.
 
I need to take about 30 does off our farms next year. I will take any youth hunter who buys a tag, can hunt safely, shoot straight, and enjoys going. I will even bone the deer out. I will provide the gun, bullets, heater, snacks, and probably anything else they need. The success rates runs between 100% to 100%. Requires 0 points.
 
I need to take about 30 does off our farms next year. I will take any youth hunter who buys a tag, can hunt safely, shoot straight, and enjoys going. I will even bone the deer out. I will provide the gun, bullets, heater, snacks, and probably anything else they need. The success rates runs between 100% to 100%. Requires 0 points.

The buck to the left is from a muzzleloader hunt in southern Iowa during the 1980s. My memory is a bit foggy, but I think we were in Centerville. We stayed in an old schoolhouse.

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"a clever way for the agencies to get more money and more participation" is pretty much the definition of a scheme.

And yes, they did lie. We were gonna draw tags every 5-7 years.

You think, honestly, if they came with a system that said you will draw every 25 years, anyone would have jumped on board?
You’re trying to jump on board right now! The random draw still has the same number of tags as we have now. We will still have thousands of applicants. Regardless of the draw system in place, it will be 30 plus years at a minimum before you draw your San Juan or Henry’s tag. That’s if you ever draw one. There is not a system in the world that will move you through the draw in 5-7 years. Never has been. Never will be unless we open all units to general season with massive permit increases.

At least with our current system everyone has a chance to draw and the longer you try to draw you get incrementally closer to drawing a tag. Through attrition of the older generation the new hunters will become high point holders and get even more tags then they get now.

Youth have plenty of opportunity to hunt. They have Utahs random draws and mentor program, Idaho’s cheap tags, Wyoming’s cheap bonus points, Colorado’s cheap fees, New Mexico’s fantastic youth permits, Arizona’s cheap points, etc.

If your only thought to youth opportunity is cow tags then the problem is with you. Time to take a step back from the keyboard and open your eyes. The opportunities are endless.
 
You’re trying to jump on board right now! The random draw still has the same number of tags as we have now. We will still have thousands of applicants. Regardless of the draw system in place, it will be 30 plus years at a minimum before you draw your San Juan or Henry’s tag. That’s if you ever draw one. There is not a system in the world that will move you through the draw in 5-7 years. Never has been. Never will be unless we open all units to general season with massive permit increases.

At least with our current system everyone has a chance to draw and the longer you try to draw you get incrementally closer to drawing a tag. Through attrition of the older generation the new hunters will become high point holders and get even more tags then they get now.

Youth have plenty of opportunity to hunt. They have Utahs random draws and mentor program, Idaho’s cheap tags, Wyoming’s cheap bonus points, Colorado’s cheap fees, New Mexico’s fantastic youth permits, Arizona’s cheap points, etc.

If your only thought to youth opportunity is cow tags then the problem is with you. Time to take a step back from the keyboard and open your eyes. The opportunities are endless.


DO THE MATH.

YOU have a chance to draw. Kids now, DONT

Why, EXACTLY is a 12 yr old seen as less deserving of a tag, than you?

Don't do the usual, youth opportunity line.

Why is YOUR 12yr old daughter less deserving of a Pauns tag, than YOU?

Did you get a old guy lane on the freeway today? Did you get a special 911 number because your older? Did you get special old dudes only boat ramps?

If there are x number of tags in Utah. Then EVERY eligible hunter deserves an EQUAL shot at them. EVERY one., EVERY YEAR.

Whatever other opportunities there are, or are not, doesn't change that.

DO THE MATH.
 
I have done the math and I know it looks scary to you but, here is the deal. In my hunting group we have a youth who drew Bison, we have another youth who has drawn LE elk and LE pronghorn, 3 more youth who have drawn LE deer.

I have a buddy who just started hunting 3 years ago. He has already drawn LE elk.

My son will draw a top unit in Wy this year. He will draw another top unit in Az next year.

How about you do the math? What does the math look like in a straight random draw with current (likely to never change) permit numbers?

I will answer that for you. The odds are astronomical no matter the draw system in place.

To say kids and new hunters don’t have a chance to draw tags is a ball face lie. You are dead wrong. Nothing could be further than the truth. The system doesn’t turn into this magical draw that everyone gets tags once it’s changed to fully random.

My son and daughter have both drawn tags. They used the draw system as currently constituted (you know, the one they can’t draw with) and they have drawn tags in Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming.

You’re asking for a change to the system and you have that right to do so. But, your argument is flawed and justifications are weak. Changing the system will not help you draw your coveted San Juan elk tag.
 
I have done the math and I know it looks scary to you but, here is the deal. In my hunting group we have a youth who drew Bison, we have another youth who has drawn LE elk and LE pronghorn, 3 more youth who have drawn LE deer.

I have a buddy who just started hunting 3 years ago. He has already drawn LE elk.

My son will draw a top unit in Wy this year. He will draw another top unit in Az next year.

How about you do the math? What does the math look like in a straight random draw with current (likely to never change) permit numbers?

I will answer that for you. The odds are astronomical no matter the draw system in place.

To say kids and new hunters don’t have a chance to draw tags is a ball face lie. You are dead wrong. Nothing could be further than the truth. The system doesn’t turn into this magical draw that everyone gets tags once it’s changed to fully random.

My son and daughter have both drawn tags. They used the draw system as currently constituted (you know, the one they can’t draw with) and they have drawn tags in Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming.

You’re asking for a change to the system and you have that right to do so. But, your argument is flawed and justifications are weak. Changing the system will not help you draw your coveted San Juan elk tag.


The odds look pretty similar to my 22 moose points at a .04% chance of drawing.

So, zero either way.

But words matter.

I'll notice you didn't say WHAT tags they drew.

And is AWESOME, that kid drew a bison tag(although you didn't say which sex).


BUT SO?

Your way of telling me random draws don't work, is by telling me all the tags your kids drew randomly?

Thanks. I agree, they did better randomly then with points.

But again. So?

North American Model says wildlife belongs to the citizens of the state. Not the old dudes of the state.
 
If you are going to have a point system I think Nevada has a good one, you get an advantage if you are in the game longer, but you still have a chance with no points, I do like the system here in ID where everyone has the same chance. Hope to get lucky here like my wife did last year! (she always has more luck than me though so she will probably draw another good tag again!)
 
The odds look pretty similar to my 22 moose points at a .04% chance of drawing.

So, zero either way.

But words matter.

I'll notice you didn't say WHAT tags they drew.

And is AWESOME, that kid drew a bison tag(although you didn't say which sex).


BUT SO?

Your way of telling me random draws don't work, is by telling me all the tags your kids drew randomly?

Thanks. I agree, they did better randomly then with points.

But again. So?

North American Model says wildlife belongs to the citizens of the state. Not the old dudes of the state.
Bull Bison, LE Wasatch elk x2, Bonanza pronghorn, 2- Book cliffs deer tags individually, 1- CWMU deer, the list goes on.

My point is not that random draws don’t work, my point is our system right now is the best out there and your assumptions and lies about youth and new hunters not drawing is incorrect.

You’re using absurd statements and implying that people can’t draw tags.

False.

The North American model does state that. And everyone has a chance to draw. Not everyone will.

Good luck in your pursuit there Hoss. I’m don’t explaining a simple process to you.
 
I like ours here in Idaho the very best. If you apply for OIL in April, you cannot apply for first round deer, elk, or antelope in May. You can still apply for unlimited tags or second draw tags with everyone else at a later date
 
Many states provide special hunt opportunities for kids. Utah for example sets aside general deer tags for youth, special youth bull hunt, and special early-season hunts for ducks, pheasants, chukars. Nothing funner for a kid than shooting a box of shells at ducks. They also have the youth hunter mentoring program that allows adults to share time-earned hunts. Kids also have a low probability chance to draw hard-to-draw hunts with hybrid draws, or weighted draws…but the odds are going to be bad with or without point systems. I think most states have done a pretty good job of balancing needs of youth and trying to help people reach lifetime goals involving species like sheep and moose or hunts managed for mature deer and elk. I think points help provide some measure
 
Bull Bison, LE Wasatch elk x2, Bonanza pronghorn, 2- Book cliffs deer tags individually, 1- CWMU deer, the list goes on.

My point is not that random draws don’t work, my point is our system right now is the best out there and your assumptions and lies about youth and new hunters not drawing is incorrect.

You’re using absurd statements and implying that people can’t draw tags.

False.

The North American model does state that. And everyone has a chance to draw. Not everyone will.

Good luck in your pursuit there Hoss. I’m don’t explaining a simple process to you.
Man, I don't know how to say the same thing, over and over.


YOU DESERVE NO MORE A CHANCE THAN YOUR KIDS.

"If" we are going to have points Utah.......


We agree.

The points system sucks, and screws young hunters.

So you, as a dad, saw the Wasatch is much easier to draw so you put your kids in. PROPS!!

NOW put them in for the top 5 draws, get back to me in 40 years
 
I would never put them in for a top 5 draw. Just like I won’t buy them a Ferrari to drive to school. Not a realistic choice.

Utah system or random draw:

Top 5 units = pipe dream

Whatever the system in place you have a choice. Chase the most difficult tags with almost zero chance of drawing or apply for mid tier units and hunt more often.

Either choice is great. You know my choice.
 

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