90/10 not going away...
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highfastflyer
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Those who think Wyoming is the only state just trying to screw the NR here and Colorado is doing such a great job, you might wake up one day and find a few little tidbits of news how residents in Colorado are starting to see the disparities in resident tag allocations. https://publiclandjurisdiction.com/no-state-treats-resident-hunters-worse-than-colorado/
jm77
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I heard the task force is honing in on 90/10 for D/E/A and the outfitters are in agreement as long as they get 50% NR tags set-aside for an outfitters pool. Hmmm
I think 50% is fare if it's going to happen anyway.
BuzzH
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I agree it's getting easier and easier to just not worry about nrs and all the whining. My immediate family is all in Montana so I can go there every year to hunt. Plus they're pretty much in the general elk and/or cow tag world in wyoming for elk. They're also in good shape for decent pronghorn and if they hunt deer it's going to be region tags.
Meaning things won't change much for them.
My nr buddies that hunt here apply all over and I apply with them in other states so I can still hunt with them as well.
With tags getting tougher to draw in every other state, I'm about ready to concede giving outfitters a set aside of the nr quota as well. I want residents to be assured good hunts and more tags.
The whiners can break out the check book and cry to the old lady instead of crying about the mean residents.
Getting in bed with outfitters to make a deal? Nothing could go wrong with that…..?
jm77
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What difference does it make?
jm77
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Requiring 50% of NR tags to be for outfitted hunts will bring much more money to those small communities that jims is so worried about.
highfastflyer
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Looks like the Outfitters aren’t so friendly now to NR. Update on latest TF news.
”90/10 for Deer, Elk & Antelope in exchange for a 50% Outfitters Set Aside for Nonresident Tags?
On the meeting agenda was a Subcommittee request/update from Dr. Joe Schaffer, one of the sportsmen reps on the Task Force. At the December meeting, WYOGA President Sy Gilliland hinted that the outfitters were now open to compromise on 90/10 tag allocation (90% for residents, 10% for nonresident limited quota deer/elk/antelope tags) inc exchange for outfitter set asides. Until December, Gilliland had been agains this.
Dr. Schaffer, along with me, heard Gilliland's position change, and immediately suggested a subcommittee to work on this. He was scheduled to give an update at the January meeting, but didn't. However, he did send the other Task Force Members an email with a "straw man" proposal. I reached out to Dr. Schaffer and requested a copy of this email, which is public record.
According to the email, Dr. Schaffer met with Sen. Hicks and Mr. Gilliland on Jan 17 or thereabouts, to discuss the 90/10 issue, Landowner Tags, Season Setting Options and a Resident Hunter Bonus System for Deer, Elk, Antelope.
”90/10 for Deer, Elk & Antelope in exchange for a 50% Outfitters Set Aside for Nonresident Tags?
On the meeting agenda was a Subcommittee request/update from Dr. Joe Schaffer, one of the sportsmen reps on the Task Force. At the December meeting, WYOGA President Sy Gilliland hinted that the outfitters were now open to compromise on 90/10 tag allocation (90% for residents, 10% for nonresident limited quota deer/elk/antelope tags) inc exchange for outfitter set asides. Until December, Gilliland had been agains this.
Dr. Schaffer, along with me, heard Gilliland's position change, and immediately suggested a subcommittee to work on this. He was scheduled to give an update at the January meeting, but didn't. However, he did send the other Task Force Members an email with a "straw man" proposal. I reached out to Dr. Schaffer and requested a copy of this email, which is public record.
According to the email, Dr. Schaffer met with Sen. Hicks and Mr. Gilliland on Jan 17 or thereabouts, to discuss the 90/10 issue, Landowner Tags, Season Setting Options and a Resident Hunter Bonus System for Deer, Elk, Antelope.
- 90/10 on the initial draw for limited quota tags. 90% of all deer/elk/antelope limited quota tags go to resident hunters, 10% to nonresident hunters. (Current allocation for elk is 84/16, and 80/20 for deer and antelope) This change would mean upwards of 9,000 more limited quota deer, and and antelope tags for resident hunters.
- Outfitter Pool - 50% of the nonresident tags would be placed into an "outfitter pool" and only nonresident hunters contracted with an outfitter could apply. These would be drawn first, before the remaining nonresident DYI (do it yourself) tags would be drawn.
- Leftover Tags: No resident preference. These would be sold on a first come/first serve basis. Not sure if there would be a draw.“. https://www.307hunter.com/articles/...-9010-possible-compromise-for-deerelkantelope
Conrad8899
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This is kind of funny because when the 90/10 started a pile of nonresidents crawled in bed with Sy and the outfitters... And sum of us residents said back then that WYOGA would sell nonresident down the river, and it looks like it will happen... Give them there sit aside outfitter tags. Maybe 90/10 doesn't look bad now better than 90/5/5 lol. Crawl in bed with the devil and get Ur @$$ burned...
LivingTheDream
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I was actually thinking about how you guys warned us like 2 years ago. It is pretty easy to see the only reason they wanted NR to boycott it then was so it could get to the Task Force where they could negotiate a better deal for WYOGA. But you guys called it.
Conrad8899
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It was all a sit up from day number one... The committee new they would never have to vote on the 90/10 the task force was already sit in motion and stacked against nonresident and resident DYI sportsmen. Burn those points boys because the draw odds are not going to be good at all for nonresidents...
Yep, you could see this coming immediately from the first Task Force meeting with outfitters so willing to give up Big 5 without even a battle! Of course Mr Hicks is in the driver's seat of this proposal. He owns private land and could always use a few more tags! He obviously doesn't have the average Wyo res in mind with his decisions!
Wyo can raise their middle fingers to nonres DIY/OYO hunters similar to New Mexico! 1/2 of 90/10 which is 90/5 isn't squat for high demand limited tags. I hope Wyo res wake up to this fact before it's to late? I would think it would be more beneficial to Wyo res to stick with their guns with 90/10 or other options rather than divert to 1/2 of the tags w/90/5? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out draw odds are dismal with 90/10. Holy smokes cut these poor draw odds in 1/2 with 90/5? You got to be kidding me!
The reason I have brought up the nonres and res landowner tag numbers is because Wyo res have no clue how many of these high demand limited tags are issued each year? It's been kept on the low and low. I'm certain a lot of Wyo res would be upset if they knew exactly how many of these tags are already issued! In fact, these numbers are already higher than some of the total nonres quotas for high demand tags? Lets cut into these low nonres quota numbers even further....bad idea! Why not give them more tags with 90/5? What a bunch of bull!
I bet the landowner pool of high demand tag numbers are a lot higher than res realize? I'm pretty sure there are ways to re-vamp the landowner draw or some other systems that would favor and benefit Wyo res tags available than 90/5 or even 90/10 for that matter?
If Wyo wants to follow in NMexico's trap of offering high demand tags to wealthy hunters buying landowner/outfitter tags, landowner tags issued to the highest bidders, etc....have at it! That seems to be the direction hunting is going to across the country.
This would pave the way for Colo to follow suit with this same scenario in a couple years. It's really sad when Wyo has been a such a great state for DIY/OYO hunters. Lets screw it all up with only a few additional limited tags offered to Wyo res with 90/5! Don't kid yourself, 90/5 is not going to increase draw odds and how many high demand tags 1 hunter draws in his lifetime....it's piddly! The important thing with all of this is our hunting heritage as we know it is heading in a sad direction! Wyo can make a difference and leave things as they are! Is it really worth it?
Wyo can raise their middle fingers to nonres DIY/OYO hunters similar to New Mexico! 1/2 of 90/10 which is 90/5 isn't squat for high demand limited tags. I hope Wyo res wake up to this fact before it's to late? I would think it would be more beneficial to Wyo res to stick with their guns with 90/10 or other options rather than divert to 1/2 of the tags w/90/5? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out draw odds are dismal with 90/10. Holy smokes cut these poor draw odds in 1/2 with 90/5? You got to be kidding me!
The reason I have brought up the nonres and res landowner tag numbers is because Wyo res have no clue how many of these high demand limited tags are issued each year? It's been kept on the low and low. I'm certain a lot of Wyo res would be upset if they knew exactly how many of these tags are already issued! In fact, these numbers are already higher than some of the total nonres quotas for high demand tags? Lets cut into these low nonres quota numbers even further....bad idea! Why not give them more tags with 90/5? What a bunch of bull!
I bet the landowner pool of high demand tag numbers are a lot higher than res realize? I'm pretty sure there are ways to re-vamp the landowner draw or some other systems that would favor and benefit Wyo res tags available than 90/5 or even 90/10 for that matter?
If Wyo wants to follow in NMexico's trap of offering high demand tags to wealthy hunters buying landowner/outfitter tags, landowner tags issued to the highest bidders, etc....have at it! That seems to be the direction hunting is going to across the country.
This would pave the way for Colo to follow suit with this same scenario in a couple years. It's really sad when Wyo has been a such a great state for DIY/OYO hunters. Lets screw it all up with only a few additional limited tags offered to Wyo res with 90/5! Don't kid yourself, 90/5 is not going to increase draw odds and how many high demand tags 1 hunter draws in his lifetime....it's piddly! The important thing with all of this is our hunting heritage as we know it is heading in a sad direction! Wyo can make a difference and leave things as they are! Is it really worth it?
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Conrad8899
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Jims I am pretty sure U crawled in bed with the devil when this all started... All U nonresidents ran like a flock of sheep waiting to die.... The outfitters sit the bait with all the advertising and media, and forums like this and U nonresidents ran to the corner of the fence to wait to die...
BuzzH
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You're a joke...now you beg Wyoming residents to stick to 90-10...
Stay in Colorado.
I feel like telling you to GFY...but, oh...wait...you already did.
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Conrad8899
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Buzz I imagine jims won't be in Wyoming as much as he was once the 90/5/5 goes into effect.... Its really is a shame that it looks like it's going to go that way, most resident don't like the 90/5/5 and the wilderness law either U can thank the outfitters for all this.
I stated after the first task force meeting that outfitters/landowners are up to something if they were in favor of 90/10 for the big 5 without a battle. Outfitters knew exactly what they were doing from the start. They have been 100% against 90/10 for elk/deer/and antelope from the beginning. They are all in favor of 90/5 and their own chunk of tags!
From the start I've been all in favor of the DIY/OYO hunter.....especially nonres DIY/OYO hunters. How about you Buzz?
In regard to outfitters. The outfitters/landowners on the task force definitely knew what they were doing from day 1. There are 0 nonres DIY/OYO members on the task force and they obviously stand the most to loose! The only voice for nonres on the task force are obviously the outfitters. Hopefully some of the current task force members, Wyo res, WG&F, and others are willing to step up to the plate and give nonres DIY/OYO hunters a little respect!
From the start I've been all in favor of the DIY/OYO hunter.....especially nonres DIY/OYO hunters. How about you Buzz?
In regard to outfitters. The outfitters/landowners on the task force definitely knew what they were doing from day 1. There are 0 nonres DIY/OYO members on the task force and they obviously stand the most to loose! The only voice for nonres on the task force are obviously the outfitters. Hopefully some of the current task force members, Wyo res, WG&F, and others are willing to step up to the plate and give nonres DIY/OYO hunters a little respect!
jm77
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jims said: "The reason I have brought up the nonres and res landowner tag numbers is because Wyo res have no clue how many of these high demand limited tags are issued each year? It's been kept on the low and low. "
The landowner tag numbers were revealed at a Task Force meeting, they are not a secret. I believe the resident side was around 5% of total.
jims said: "Don't kid yourself, 90/5 is not going to increase draw odds and how many high demand tags 1 hunter draws in his lifetime....it's piddly!"
90/10 or 90/5/5 means 10% more tags available to resident hunters. That's 10 extra tags per 100 licenses. I would say that's a significant increase.
The landowner tag numbers were revealed at a Task Force meeting, they are not a secret. I believe the resident side was around 5% of total.
jims said: "Don't kid yourself, 90/5 is not going to increase draw odds and how many high demand tags 1 hunter draws in his lifetime....it's piddly!"
90/10 or 90/5/5 means 10% more tags available to resident hunters. That's 10 extra tags per 100 licenses. I would say that's a significant increase.
Conrad8899
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Why in God's name would a nonresident DYI sportsmen get a seat on any committee or task force in Wyoming or any other state. This has been said over and over the people of Wyoming will decide what's going to happen with our tags our wildlife and in the end, nonresidents get the short stick... Sorry thats just how it goes...
jm77
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If I offered you a pool of 80 tags to draw from or a pool of 90 tags to draw from, which would you rather take?
You're losing it Sebastian.
BuzzH
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Are the outfitters still 100% against 90-10 for deer, elk, and pronghorn Sebastian?
If I were you I would start looking for a side hustle to come up with some money to pay chipperfield for another guided pronghorn hunt.
Wyoming Resident hunters are not going to go after landowners via cutting their landowner tags. We get more in return in the form of access and wildlife tolerance than they take via some tags.
You're barking up the wrong tree...
BuzzH
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Sebastian is well known for his ability to argue against facts, common sense, and logic...
nripepi
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Because they pay for the biggest portion of the pie by a significant amount. In any other business model they would have the largest representation on the committee, not zero representation. I completely understand that everyone wants more tags for their group, but what happens when non-res diy $ dissapears with 90/5/5....either you lay people off or increase resident tag prices. Also, a rebate should be issued for anyone that requests it for their points, only fair if you fund a significant amount of the G&F budget off of their backs and have sold them points for 20+ years based on 1 model. Buzz and many others have stated plenty of times in the past they were against outfitter pass throughs and even stated they wouldn't support a reduction in non-res tags because it wasn't fair, irrespective of outfitters. I believe he also stated he wouldn't apply in New Mexico because of what they did with reduction in non-res diy tags and an increase in outfitter tags. The only ones that can hunt out of state will be the rich, which is against what Backcountry Hunters & Anglers stand for and some tenets of what Teddy stood for in the North American model for wildlife conservation. Why would someone from the east coast support any of these organizations like RMEF, BHA, MDF....? It seems totally backwards to do all of this and subject the wildlife to significantly less monetary support to increase your odds of drawing a tag from 5% to 5.625%.
highfastflyer
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I think Rob summed it up best. Your fuzzy statistics are better viewed in overall license numbers……………
”
- 90/10 on the initial draw for limited quota tags. 90% of all deer/elk/antelope limited quota tags go to resident hunters, 10% to nonresident hunters. (Current allocation for elk is 84/16, and 80/20 for deer and antelope) This change would mean upwards of 9,000 more limited quota deer, and and antelope tags for resident hunters.”
Aren’t you crawling in bed with the same devil now?
highfastflyer
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Yep………
LIK2HNT
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It is sad to see what this has turned into. Wyoming already gave out more Res. sheep tags per applicant then other states. Once this ball gets rolling other states will follow and NR hunting will be reserved for the wealthy. Some of us have been purchasing point for our Children waiting for when they get out of school and take them on hunts. To bad this is what it has come to.
jm77
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Let me get this straight: because Wyoming gave 25% of our sheep tags to NR and want to go to 10%, other states will also go to 10%?
Sorry, other states are already there and in most cases less.
highfastflyer
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What was truly sad was watching 25% of all those licenses go to old NR hunters when I was purchasing PP for my children all those years and only having a chance at less than 10% in most states. Now my kids will get equitable treatment………
Your kids will get equitable treatment when all those states go to 90/5/5.
BuzzH
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You're just flat wrong.
First off, NR's are NOT the biggest piece of the pie and further NR's have no say in how Wyoming residents decide how they want their wildlife allocated.
If you believe NR's should have a seat at the table on Wyoming issues, well, we won't be agreeing on that. If you also agree that RMEF, BHA, MDF, etc. are going to make decisions for every Resident hunter in Wyoming...again, you need to rethink some things. You also aren't going to have much success in guilting these groups, made up of residents in the State Chapters by throwing shade their way and whining because they won't carry NR's water.
The ONLY mistake Wyoming ever made in regard to NR's was flat being too generous with tags for way too long.
I don't hear your high pitched whining about Montana, Oregon, Arizona, Idaho...and other states that limit NR's to 10%...or in some cases way less.
Come up with a single reason why a Resident in Wyoming SHOULDNT be in favor of keeping 90% of the tags.
Cahunter805
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Wow! More outfitter welfare! Incredible. I’m not opposed to the 90/10 but landowner tags and outfitter pools is ridiculous.
highfastflyer
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Don’t get confused. These aren’t landowner pools or set asides, they will be Outfitter pools, a big difference. Perhaps the NR welfare of 25% is slowing down………Now that’s what I call Riduculous, especially when at best I could ever get as a NR was 10%………..
BuzzH
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That's already what they're up against everywhere anyway...you're just mad because you can't hunt Wyoming at will, whenever you want....get over it.
I've been in applying in Utah and Nevada for 20+ years...yet to pull a tag in either state.
I'm not bitter about it and not complaining that Residents aren't giving me more tags.
Sure not that way in Wyoming...I know very few of the guys complaining on this thread that haven't hunted Wyoming multiple times. Wish I could say the same about UT, NV, AZ, NM, OR...
nripepi
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I never said that NR's should be on the committee and deciding these issues, It obviously should be a high majority residents. I just answered the question about there not being a good reason and one legit reason is they pay the most of anyone into the pie...can you name another business where the group that pays the most in revenue has no say? Who pays more than non-residents do?
Reasons:
1. It is not fair
2. It might be illegal, unless a refund is issued
3. It takes away from tourism dollars brought into the state for every non-resident not receiving a tag
4. It takes away from license fees and preference point fees brought into the state from non-residents
5. Every non-resident that stops hunting out of state is way less likely to be involved in conservation efforts of RMEF....
Those seem like 5 legit reasons to me, but who am I but a DIY-NR hunter who wants to take my kids to shoot a doe antelope in Wyoming one day.
Buzz, you have stated in the past that it was not fair as well:
""I fought that bill in Wyoming and will continue to fight for NR's in Wyoming. These constant shifting of goal posts is not fair to anyone but a handful of Residents each year as a "best" case."
I used to apply in NM every year and have hunted there a number of times, I whined when they made those changes and haven't applied there since. I understand that you can change your mind, but this is going a bit 180 on 90/5/5. You said you won't apply in New Mexico because of what they did which is similar to 95/5/5:
"I applied for New Mexico for elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep and oryx for many years. After I drew oryx, I bailed and will never apply there again until the residents get a handle on outfitter and landowners. The most corrupt state when it comes to allocation of wildlife resources in the West, hands down."
One of the biggest faults I see with the Task Force is there is no one representing nonresident's voice. I think it's obvious this is causing a heck of a lot of headaches! Everyone else seems to be represented, why not nonres hunters that contribute 77% of the WG&F license revenue? As mentioned above, "can you name another business where the group that pays the most in revenue has no say?"
The task force is definitely a misrepresentation of the nonres that represent 77% of license revenue generated for the WG&F.
There are also thousands of nonres that have contributed pref pts $ for up to 23-24 years to this system. If you think about it, Wyo residents have contributed $0.00 in the form of pref pts $ for elk, deer, and antelope since pref pt inception. Seems a little odd that nonres get shafted when they have supported the WG&F budget for so many years?
The task force is definitely a misrepresentation of the nonres that represent 77% of license revenue generated for the WG&F.
There are also thousands of nonres that have contributed pref pts $ for up to 23-24 years to this system. If you think about it, Wyo residents have contributed $0.00 in the form of pref pts $ for elk, deer, and antelope since pref pt inception. Seems a little odd that nonres get shafted when they have supported the WG&F budget for so many years?
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highfastflyer
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Reasons.
1. It is not fair
Life’s not fair, to think otherwise is just foolish….
2. It might be illegal, unless a refund is issued
Its not. Go waste some more money and make an attorney rich.
3. It takes away from tourism dollars brought into the state for every non-resident not receiving a tag
No, with increased NR Fully Outfitted hunts it will dramatically increase,
4. It takes away from license fees and preference point fees brought into the state from non-residents
Don’t worry, we’ll manage, probably gain more revenue also with this new scheme.
5. Every non-resident that stops hunting out of state is way less likely to be involved in conservation efforts of RMEF....
My heart is bleeding……..
1. It is not fair
Life’s not fair, to think otherwise is just foolish….
2. It might be illegal, unless a refund is issued
Its not. Go waste some more money and make an attorney rich.
3. It takes away from tourism dollars brought into the state for every non-resident not receiving a tag
No, with increased NR Fully Outfitted hunts it will dramatically increase,
4. It takes away from license fees and preference point fees brought into the state from non-residents
Don’t worry, we’ll manage, probably gain more revenue also with this new scheme.
5. Every non-resident that stops hunting out of state is way less likely to be involved in conservation efforts of RMEF....
My heart is bleeding……..
Conrad8899
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How am I crawling in bed with the devil? It was all of U nonresidents who came out of the woodwork when Sy and is bunch started the nonresident boycott and every intitled nonresident when scream head over heels just to find out it was a conned job... I am getting my %90 resident tags I dont care if U get %1 or %5....
Conrad8899
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Its not fair Jesus @#$%^ U sound like a spoiled little brat who just had his nookie stolen wtf . Life isn't fair get over it...
jm77
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You do realize that this allocation change would have little to no effect on reduced price licenses? Most likely, it would also have little to no effect on type 4 & 5 tags for elk.
In fact, in all likelihood, those tags would be more available to nonresidents.
BuzzH
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None of those are valid reasons and 90-10 will not interfere with taking your kid doe pronghorn hunting...we can exclude type cow/calf and doe/fawn tags.
Correct I no longer apply in New Mexico and they don't miss my application one bit. Residents there don't miss me either. Rather than cry every chance I get, like you and Sebastian do about Wyoming, I just moved on. The residents there were not willing to do anything to change it, so I just made the executive decision to not apply.
No big deal and I don't fuss about it.
The reason I've given up fighting to keep more NR tags is because of how I'm treated everywhere else I apply. That, and the entitlement attitude that NR's constantly display on this board and others. Wyoming's past generosity has become NR entitlement and I'm done listening to it.
I'm tired of listening to NR's who hunt here nearly every year complain, while I rarely, if ever, hunt their states.
When I see any kind of concerted effort put forth by Residents in NM, AZ, CA, OR, MT, ID, UT, NV etc. to increase my tag numbers as a NR hunter of their states, maybe I'll be more inclined to reconsider 90-10.
I'll not hold my breath for that to happen, and in the meantime I'll see to it that Residents here also keep 90% of the tags.
You talk about "fairness", well lets keep fairness consistent.
jm77
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Any revenue shortfalls will be dealt with, of that you can be assured.
Cahunter805
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I’m not confused. I understand it would be an outfitter pool taken from the NR quota. There is also talk about changes to landowner tags also.
I’m not opposed to residents getting their share of the tags. Why couldn’t it just change to 84/16 for deer and antelope like elk is now?
I’m opposed to outfitters getting another handout at the expense of Non residents and even residents.
I’m also not opposed to anyone using an outfitter. If you draw a tag and want to hire a guide that’s your own choice. I just feel it’s unfair to give anyone who wants to hire a guide a better chance at drawing the tag than someone who doesn’t. I’ve also already sent emails to members of the task board with my opinion on this( not that it matters to some of them).
Cahunter805
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Buzz
There is a petition submitted in CA this year that includes a change to the NR quotas for elk and antelope to 10% for NR.
LIK2HNT
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I am talking about more guide welfare, NR paying a larger portion of The pie for less and less, residents complaining about NR entitlement attitude yet they feel it’s not entitlement on their part because they live there and have relied on NR funds to support the wildlife in their state. There is more than one way to look at this and any argument. I understand your greed.
BuzzH
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I appreciate that, and 90-10 in Wyoming would be right in line...
We'll see if it passes.
I’m not mad or bitter or complaining. In fact, it’s quite the contrary. I amused by the fact that y’all had to get bent over by the WYOGA to give 90/10 a chance of passing.
highfastflyer
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Glad you’re amused, we haven‘t been the past decade when practically every other state wasn’t giving us 25%. BTW, we know who is getting bent over, hint, it’s not the residents anymore……
highfastflyer
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Perhaps we just try and restore lost opportunity and revenue for the Outfitting Industry. Did you know during the 1950s - 1973 all nonresident hunters were required to hire a guide in Wyoming for all big game except antelope. Many don’t remember that, I do…..
jm77
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So please explain to me how this comment helps your cause.
WYOGA is not bending us over, they're bending you over. Still amused?
All this talk about “fair,” which implies one’s feelings being taken into account. Let’s talk equitable because everyone’s butt hurt feelings aren’t relevant. As a NR I say good on y’all if you get 90/10 or 90/5/5. Now let’s be equitable and apply that to Gen deer as well. Maybe then we can manage game as well as we are trying to manage people.
BuzzH
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Where were the non residents when Outfitters were taking a huge chunk of our tags?
Where were all the nonresidents when WOGA wanted to increase the NR elk cap? Where were the NR's when WOGA wanted to flip the regular/special tag fee percentages?
Not ONE nonresident bothered to come to a commission meeting or the Legislature to stop either of those. It was all Residents that stopped both, you're welcome, in advance.
How many NR's bothered to take the time to see that the elk tags were split fairly? How many cleaned up the drone/aircraft issue, making it legal for the first time to actually hunt on landlocked State lands? Again, you're welcome.
So NR's show up for exactly nothing and they should have a seat on the task force? Don't think so.
Like I said the ungrateful, entitled attitude when Residents want to look out for our interests completely gets the attention, while we get NO thanks for beating back a pile of crap legislation for decades. When we donate our time and money to improve habitat, fight to fund the WWNRT, secure access, work with landowners, and on and on and on.
Start a thread about any of those...might get 4 replies, 3 of which will be Non Residents complaining that we should have done it better, not how they would have done it, and maybe one actually realizing how tough doing anything to help wildlife really is. For the 1 in 4 non residents that seem to care and understand what Residents really do, I feel bad for them on things like 90-10, for the other 3 that whine complain and run static...go pound sand, hunt your own State.
I'm over it...time to look out for Residents.
Oh, and what's changed in Wyoming is that outfitters can't just waltz into the Gov's office, commission, or legislature and get away with taking from Residents anymore. They realize anything they do better not impact Residents, as they won't be getting their way.
BuzzH
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That will leave a mark...
Bookhead
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If you guys haven't been paying attention you've been on this site whining about 90/10 the whole time its been gaining momentum and now looking at 90/5/5 your comments on here or to the task force hasn't done anything, you're wasting your breath. We don't care about your opinion neither do the outfitters you're a dollar sign to them pretty hard to understand why you didn't see that in the first place good luck with future commenting and whining carry on
Ouch, ouch, you guys are brutal! That really left a mark! ?
I hunt Wyoming for fun, as well as a handful of other places, on a regular basis. If Wyoming decides it’s in its best interest to go 90/10 or 90/5/5, that’s up to them. I can either play by the rules or not at all, regardless if I’m a resident or a nonresident. I wish hunting in Wyoming was special enough to get upset about, but it’s about the same experience as hunting any other place in the west or Canada. I’ll continue to hunt Wyoming when I can, as I have for years for many other places. I do truly appreciate the passion that a few of you resident Wyoming guys (Buzz, JM77, highfastflyer, etc) have for hunting and don’t blame you a bit for wanting to change it to a more favorable allocation of the tags that are given. Likewise, I don’t think it’s out of line for nonresidents to be opposed to these changes, even if ultimately we have virtually no say in the decision. As I’ve said before, 90/10 is inevitable at some point. And yes, I’m still amused at the fact that the WYOGA has been playing nonresidents and residents for fools all along.
As a Nevada resident I have no problem with the 90/10 on deer and antelope. It falls right inline with most states. I do disagree with the outfitter allocation proposal but NV has a special outfitter draw for deer too. It’s going to be what it’s going to be, I just hope my grandkids can have more opportunities to hunt Wy in the future
Conrad8899
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hunt30 I agree with everything U just said except residents being played by WYOGA if U where to ask any resident here... They would say it was just a matter of time before WYOGA showed their hand it just took a little longer than I expected.
LivingTheDream
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Transferable Landowner Tags. WYOGA is following New Mexico model.
jm77
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They would not be transferable, they would be sponsored and applied for like LQ is now.
DoubleDropMuley
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I say let’s change subjects ?
BuzzH
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My prediction is that many of the things being brought up by the task force are going down in flames. Everything they bring up still has to go through either the legislature or the commission, which means the public process. The task force can make any recommendation they want, but they have no authority to implement any of it.
Outfitters are going to have a rough time getting their own allocation of the NR tags...that's what I think.
Outfitters are going to have a rough time getting their own allocation of the NR tags...that's what I think.
BuzzH
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Sure, start another thread with any subject you want.
Cahunter805
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I appreciate everything you and Jeff do for NR in Wyoming and always have.
I support residents in their quest for fair tag distribution and 90/10. What I hope does not happen is that outfitters get another handout at the expense of the NR quota.
I have written many emails to commissioners regarding many WY issues over the years and encouraged my NR friends to do so as well. I have not attended a meeting due to my current career and family life just not making that possible at this time.
I’m curious are Non residents allowed to comment during the Zoom session of the task force meeting or just watch?
If Wyoming choose to make it 90/10 or 90/5/5 I will continue to apply and draw tags when I can without a complaint.
BuzzH
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Yes, you can comment on the zoom calls.
Like I said, I think the outfitters are going to have a rough go of an outfitter set aside.
Conrad8899
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Buzz I really hope U are right about outfitter set aside just speaking for myself I do not want to see %5 of nonresident tags set aside for outfitters... And I feel most resident dyi that I have talked to don't want to give them anything either. U and jm77 and a couple other residents new this would be brought up by the outfitters it was only a matter of time they would want sum welfare.
highfastflyer
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Lots of Confusion on what the Outfitter pool proposal is. This is all in its infancy stages but it is NOT anything to do with Landowners and it’s not a guaranteed Outfitter license. This is what was proposed.
”Outfitter Pool – Of the 10% non-resident allocation, at least 5% (half of the available 10%) would be placed in a separate pool where non-residents who are contracted with a licensed Outfitter can apply. The outfitter pool draw would be the first draw in the non-resident drawing process, again considering all three of an applicant’s choices, until all applicants in this pool have been drawn or the 5% has been reached. In the case of the former, remaining permits would tip into the general non-resident pool. Any permit issued in the Outfitter pool will be sold at the Special license fee level.
Remember Wyoming guarantees NR 7250 licenses so if not enough NR put in for the Special limited quota Outfitter licenses you could have a situation where far more NR hunters get a chance to hunt in General areas, just something to consider. Reduced price licenses and leftover licenses will still be available. With an ever growing and expanding Elk herd, the one bright shiny spot in Wyoming the opportunity will still be immense for NR hunters, just less on premium Limited Quota licenses but overall more future licenses with this proposal and current management strategies by Game and Fish.
”Outfitter Pool – Of the 10% non-resident allocation, at least 5% (half of the available 10%) would be placed in a separate pool where non-residents who are contracted with a licensed Outfitter can apply. The outfitter pool draw would be the first draw in the non-resident drawing process, again considering all three of an applicant’s choices, until all applicants in this pool have been drawn or the 5% has been reached. In the case of the former, remaining permits would tip into the general non-resident pool. Any permit issued in the Outfitter pool will be sold at the Special license fee level.
Remember Wyoming guarantees NR 7250 licenses so if not enough NR put in for the Special limited quota Outfitter licenses you could have a situation where far more NR hunters get a chance to hunt in General areas, just something to consider. Reduced price licenses and leftover licenses will still be available. With an ever growing and expanding Elk herd, the one bright shiny spot in Wyoming the opportunity will still be immense for NR hunters, just less on premium Limited Quota licenses but overall more future licenses with this proposal and current management strategies by Game and Fish.
It is obvious that a lot of shifty and weird stuff has gone on in this process behind closed doors with task force members. In fact, I'm curious if it is possible that legal actions could be taken with 90/10 or 90/5/5? Everyone knows what is going on with the corner crossing battle? I think it would be great if nonres connected and contributed to a fund and started something similar with the 90/10 and 90/5/5 battle. Stop this nonsense in it's tracks!
1) Nonres have invested years of applying and buying pref points for deer, elk, and antelope with the expectations of using those points some year to draw tags. Wyo residents have paid $0.00 over all these same years into the elk, deer, and antelope pref pt program. Suddenly 1/2 of these tags are taken away from nonres and offered to residents that haven't paid a penny into this program? With 90/10 it will take 2x longer for nonres to draw tags?
2) What is sad about all of this nonsense is that nonres support 77% of license revenue to the WG&F and have had 0 task force members. Seems mighty shady and backwards to me!
Every nonres stands to loose 1/2 of their allotment of high demand limited tags with both 90/10 or 90/5/5. Doe/cow and general tags are irrelevant since they will be available with or without 90/10. The important thing to remember is this significantly impacts EVERY nonres. As buzz mentioned it's not a done deal. I really believe nonres have a great chance of squishing this nonsense.
1) Nonres have invested years of applying and buying pref points for deer, elk, and antelope with the expectations of using those points some year to draw tags. Wyo residents have paid $0.00 over all these same years into the elk, deer, and antelope pref pt program. Suddenly 1/2 of these tags are taken away from nonres and offered to residents that haven't paid a penny into this program? With 90/10 it will take 2x longer for nonres to draw tags?
2) What is sad about all of this nonsense is that nonres support 77% of license revenue to the WG&F and have had 0 task force members. Seems mighty shady and backwards to me!
Every nonres stands to loose 1/2 of their allotment of high demand limited tags with both 90/10 or 90/5/5. Doe/cow and general tags are irrelevant since they will be available with or without 90/10. The important thing to remember is this significantly impacts EVERY nonres. As buzz mentioned it's not a done deal. I really believe nonres have a great chance of squishing this nonsense.
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Conrad8899
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jims why would U think a nonresident should be sitting on the task force? U think any nonresidents set on any committee or task force in any other state? This is the entitled attitude that just blows my mind. We don't even have any DYI resident hunters on the task force there might be a couple who claim to be, but they are just taken up space on the task force...
BuzzH
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You know, I've always opposed outfitter set asides, posts like these make me want to support them. It would be real easy to support the outfitters...and there aren't many Resident hunters that are going to oppose them.
No chit Residents haven't paid for points for deer, elk and pronghorn...we don't have a point system for those species captain obvious.
This issue is simply going to come down to what the average resident hunter here thinks. I believe for a lot of them, NR's are not much of a concern and neither is an outfitter set aside. It doesn't impact residents either way if a tag for a NR is funneled through an outfitter or not.
Nice work bashing Wyoming Resident hunters you fool Sebastian...you're driving another nail in your own coffin every post you make.
Congratulations!
You truly are ignorant...good luck with your lawsuit. Study up on the Federal Law reaffirming the rights of States to discriminate against NR's any way they want in regard to wildlife resources. In particular to the USO lawsuit and dormant commerce clause.
States can discriminate against you as a NR hunter/fisherman by law...
Educate yourself, if that's possible. Check out this video of the guy you turned in for illegally paying for a guided hunt. You know at the same time you accused me of illegally outfitting for him. He will do everything shy of breaking out the crayons explaining it to you:
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Cahunter805
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WHAT??? Jims im sorry to say as a fellow NR this thinking just sounds absurd to me.
Wyoming has the right to give us NR zero tags if they so choose to and legislators pass it.
I’m grateful for any tags that are available to us NR as I’m sure you are. I’ve experienced great hunts in WY many of them on second/third choice and even leftovers. Heck I’ve bought some tags at the Hardware Hank’s once I arrived in WY.
I do agree that NR fund a vast majority of the license revenue but why would that mean a NR should be on the task force?
Cahunter805
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Just curious. What do the proponents of the Outfitter pool claim are the reasons this should even be considered? I understand they want more tags for their clients so they can make more money but what else could they possibly be claiming are the positives of this? Seems they are just using this to leverage their support of 90/10.
Conrad8899
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It's all about leverage imo... Will give U the %90 of the tags but we want 5 for set a side tag... Thay are hoping for enough residents dyi hunters go along with this without a fight. From day number one the 90/10 was going to lead to some sort of outfitter welfare... Thats why so many residents here warned nonresidents not to crawl in bed with them...
Who knows who was on the task force member selection committee but they certainly didn't have nonres that contribute 77% of WG&F budget and stand the most to loose with 90/10 in mind. This would not even be a discussion in the real world! For God's sake there are about a dozen task force members and not 1 has any interest in nonres that stand the most to lose in all of this! What a shame!
Nonres truly play a major role in all of this! Not having a nonres representative on the task force just shows how much clout landowners, and outfitters have....and their interests in what happens with this legislature!
Wake up Wyo res you also will get hosed! 90-5-5 is likely just the beginning and you don't see what's all of a sudden going to surface. It will likely be a lot worse than if things stay the same!
Fact is, Wyo res haven't paid a dime for pref pts and nonres have. Nonres contribute 77% of the total license revenue budget to the WG&F of which most of this stems from pref pt #. This may actually be a legal issue since nonres have contributed to deer, elk, and antelope in the form of pref pt $ the past 15 years while res contribute $0.00. Suddenly 1/2 of this opportunity that nonres have paid for all these years is taken away from nonres and handed over to res that haven't contribued to this programs from the beginning?
Nonres truly play a major role in all of this! Not having a nonres representative on the task force just shows how much clout landowners, and outfitters have....and their interests in what happens with this legislature!
Wake up Wyo res you also will get hosed! 90-5-5 is likely just the beginning and you don't see what's all of a sudden going to surface. It will likely be a lot worse than if things stay the same!
Fact is, Wyo res haven't paid a dime for pref pts and nonres have. Nonres contribute 77% of the total license revenue budget to the WG&F of which most of this stems from pref pt #. This may actually be a legal issue since nonres have contributed to deer, elk, and antelope in the form of pref pt $ the past 15 years while res contribute $0.00. Suddenly 1/2 of this opportunity that nonres have paid for all these years is taken away from nonres and handed over to res that haven't contribued to this programs from the beginning?
idahohuntr
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As a non-resident I cringe when I see NR posts with entitlement attitudes and poorly thought out threats (of legal action). Any state can alter what proportion of tags are given to NR's and frankly with resident demand and the money that goes into hunting I don't think the model of 30+ years ago where departments need that NR funding to stay afloat is even reality anymore. I think most states could more easily raise resident fees if they do so in conjunction with limiting NR tags and increasing R opportunity.
I think WY residents advocating for 90/10 is absolutely their prerogative and very much in line with what many other states have done for years. My only hope is whatever allocation of tags WY chooses to give NRs that there are no outfitter pools. I prefer everyone (NRs that is) be on an equal playing field. I've fought outfitter set asides (and increases to existing set asides) in every state I buy licenses for...that includes several which are not my home state. I think outfitter set asides are an erosion of one pillar of the NAMWC and I think its a nose under the tent that only leads to industry entitlement.
I think WY residents advocating for 90/10 is absolutely their prerogative and very much in line with what many other states have done for years. My only hope is whatever allocation of tags WY chooses to give NRs that there are no outfitter pools. I prefer everyone (NRs that is) be on an equal playing field. I've fought outfitter set asides (and increases to existing set asides) in every state I buy licenses for...that includes several which are not my home state. I think outfitter set asides are an erosion of one pillar of the NAMWC and I think its a nose under the tent that only leads to industry entitlement.
Yes, I could sit back like many nonres and let things happen but I am hoping to spread the word to save what truly is important....our hunting heritage as we know it! How many agree with what happened in New Mexico and in Nevada with outfitter set aside tags? If what I've been preaching about happens in Wyo it will likely domino in my home state of Colo. What a frick'n shame! Yes, I really think each and every hunter across the country should stand up and voice their opinion on this nonsense!
This goes way beyond the public land and state license issue that Randy spoke about. It's an ethics issue and where our hunting heritage is heading. Unfortunately Randy didn't speak on this subject. I sure hope Randy brings this up because it is the future of hunting as we know it that is at stake!
The big question hunters need to ask ourselves is "where is hunting headed in the next 20 years?" What happens as nonres opportunity slips away and only the wealthy can afford to hunt big game? How about hunting opportunity for our youth? How about youth and hunters that want to just start applying/hunting species that aren't available where they live?
New Mexico is a prime example of this. Wealthy hunters that can hire outfitters can hunt every year while DIY hunters wait years and years to draw horrible draw odd tags. It's a shame if this happens in Wyo and Colo! Pretty much the last 2 states that offer nonres great opportunity!
This goes way beyond the public land and state license issue that Randy spoke about. It's an ethics issue and where our hunting heritage is heading. Unfortunately Randy didn't speak on this subject. I sure hope Randy brings this up because it is the future of hunting as we know it that is at stake!
The big question hunters need to ask ourselves is "where is hunting headed in the next 20 years?" What happens as nonres opportunity slips away and only the wealthy can afford to hunt big game? How about hunting opportunity for our youth? How about youth and hunters that want to just start applying/hunting species that aren't available where they live?
New Mexico is a prime example of this. Wealthy hunters that can hire outfitters can hunt every year while DIY hunters wait years and years to draw horrible draw odd tags. It's a shame if this happens in Wyo and Colo! Pretty much the last 2 states that offer nonres great opportunity!
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LivingTheDream
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I am struggling a bit to figure out why the outfitters would want this. Out of the 20% of tags assigned to NR hunters, I would think more that 5% of that would hire outfitters. Especially with Wilderness laws. Do they think Non residents will hire them on leftover licenses and they make up profit that way. Seems like they are capping their growth, but I dont know. They obviously know their business model better and I guess this works out for them.
grosventrehunter
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I am totally against outfitter sponsored tags, but that opposition grows less and less with each post by jims.
NR were warned about WYOGA!!
NR were warned about WYOGA!!
If 90/10 happens outfitters loose customers because 10% of tags go directly to res. With 90/5/5 outfitters are guaranteed 5% of the tags. You can bet Wyo res get screwed out of 1/2 of their tags with 90/5/5 vs 90/10.
It's pretty much Wyo res battling outfitters/landowners....who will win?
Believe me.....Wyo res were warned about the WYOGA! Wyo res are not only battling nonres but also outfitter/landowners! If I were a Wyo res I would let things settle as they are or it could get a lot worse!
It's pretty much Wyo res battling outfitters/landowners....who will win?
Believe me.....Wyo res were warned about the WYOGA! Wyo res are not only battling nonres but also outfitter/landowners! If I were a Wyo res I would let things settle as they are or it could get a lot worse!
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highfastflyer
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Not an Outfitter and not a proponent but I would only add if I were a NR then it would be worth the extra money if you are financially able as it would substantially benefit you. Higher odds of drawing, higher success rates while going guided vs. unguided, access to private ground in many hunts, better food, easier to plan and prepare for, good livestock if you go into a Wilderness area, professional expertise, safety, security etc. If this passes then those are just a few things how this could benefit you as a NR hunter.
LivingTheDream
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I dont think it was so much crawled in bed, as a NR I didn't want to see tags cut as it impacts my planning and eventual hunting. More of an alignment of priorities at the time. For what it is worth, I did plan hire an outfitter for Mule Deer for my dad and I when we get the points to draw the area we want. But I am going to go DYI now and if I eat tag soup so be it.
highfastflyer
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Just with elk alone they will greatly benefit. The NR cap is 7250 and typically about 1/3 historically go fully guided. With this new proposal they will now gain likely 1/2 of these hunters. This doesn’t also include Reduced price Cow/Calf hunters who choose to go guided. I can‘t predict all the effects but historically not that many people used an outfitter for Pronghorn hunting. Now with half the tags available if you book with an Outfitter my opinion is more will choose to go fully guided.
30Hart
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One thing I don't think the outfitters thought about is all the contracts they are going to have to do ahead of time. As one who books hunts, guys ask alot of questions, call several times, think it over etc. As demand increases it'll just be like New Mexico an outfitter may have to do 100 contracts just to get a couple tags. That's alot of investment for little reward.
They will like it at first but it becomes a big chore especially guys with other seasonal jobs.
Can't turn it over to a booking agent either as no money changes hands up front because there's no guarantee a tag will ever be drawn.
They will like it at first but it becomes a big chore especially guys with other seasonal jobs.
Can't turn it over to a booking agent either as no money changes hands up front because there's no guarantee a tag will ever be drawn.
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LivingTheDream
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Doesn't that 7250 represent 16% of the tags. 10% would be 4500ish.
So if a 1/3 of 7250 went fully guided it would be 2400 hunters. 1/2 of 4500 would be 2250. You are probably right about antelope. Time will tell.
jm77
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Colorado already has Ranching for Wildlife and as a NR I cannot apply for those tags.
Maybe I should sue?
jm77
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The 7250 number would remain. 90/5/5 would only pertain to LQ tags.
Cahunter805
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So basically it would benefit wealthy NR hunters and not All NR hunters. ?
I see nothing wrong with anyone hiring an outfitter for a hunt but feel they shouldn’t be given a handout just because they choose to do so.
Apply like the rest of us. Draw you tag and hire whoever you want.
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
