Muzzleloaders

Are you in support of a ban of scopes above fixed 1x on muzzleloaders (Open sights or fixed 1x only)

  • Yes

    Votes: 68 56.2%
  • No

    Votes: 53 43.8%

  • Total voters
    121

SanPitch

Active Member
Messages
237
I know this is already being discussed but I think it should be discussed completely separate. We all know this is next on the technology chopping block and I want to see what the popular opinion is. Scopes or no scopes on muzzleloaders?
 
To get the desired effect you'd have to have limitations on iron sights too. There are iron sights with built in windage and elevation adjustments that can keep it on the vitals of an elk out to 600 yards with the most accurate high speed muzzys.
Wow - what percentage of muzzy hunters would be capable of a shot with any open sights past about 300? A tenth of one percent??!
 
TAKE F'N NOTE!

You Take Something From The SmokePolers!

You're Gonna Take From The StickFlippers as Well!

You're Gonna Clamp Down On Long Range Rifles at The Same Time As Well!

It's Gonna Be:

ALL GAVE SOME!

Not!

Some Gave All!

Fair & F'N Square Or None Of It's Flyin!
 
TAKE F'N NOTE!

You Take Something From The SmokePolers!

You're Gonna Take From The StickFlippers as Well!

You're Gonna Clamp Down On Long Range Rifles at The Same Time As Well!

It's Gonna Be:

ALL GAVE SOME!

Not!

Some Gave All!

Fair & F'N Square Or None Of It's Flyin!
I wish that were the case! In terms of fairness, it seems logical, however only scopes on muzzys are on the agenda for discussion.
 
And It's No F'N Different Than Banning The Lion Hunting in KALI!

Or Trying To Ban Black Guns!

They'll Pick on the Easiest For Them First!

I Don't Have A Problem With it As Long As The Other 2 Weapon Types Get Restrictions As Well!

Fair is Fair!

Or it at least it Used To Be!

It Will Be a CHICKEN-SSHHIT Move if They only Put Restrictions on SmokePoles!

I wish that were the case! In terms of fairness, it seems logical, however only scopes on muzzys are on the agenda for discussion.
 
And It's No F'N Different Than Banning The Lion Hunting in KALI!

Or Trying To Ban Black Guns!

They'll Pick on the Easiest For Them First!

I Don't Have A Problem With it As Long As The Other 2 Weapon Types Get Restrictions As Well!

Fair is Fair!

Or it at least it Used To Be!

It Will Be a CHICKEN-SSHHIT Move if They only Put Restrictions on SmokePoles!
Well there won't ever be any on the regular rifle hunts...never ever. Just combine the muzzy and rifle hunts and let them use either.
 
I voted yes, they should have never made the change several years ago to allow magnified scope on muzzleloader for muzzleloader season. It was fine the way it was with the 1x scope and/or open sights muzzleloader season. If you want to see some naïve comments and lack of knowledge of the capabilities of muzzleloaders listen to the WB meeting when they passed the rule make magnified scopes legal for muzzleloader season. That alone should be reason enough to put it back to how it was before they made magnified scopes legal. Everyone may not agree with me but I’m tired of everyone thinking they have a long range muzzleloader and shooting at stuff way further then they should be shooting at stuff. Some of these people projectiles will not even perform at the distances they are shooting due to the low velocities at the point of impact. There are more factors to consider than just hitting a steel plate. Obviously this changes some with the really long range muzzleloader that are pushing projectiles at 2700 fps. This has been a sour subject with me since that WB meeting, if they had any good reason to make the change then I maybe could have lived with it but you listen to that WB meeting and be the judge. Everyone is making the point that it has not change harvest success rate any by making the change so that will make it just another point for it going back the way it was and no one should have a problem with that in that regard. No need for magnified scopes on muzzleloader during muzzleloader season. If you want to use a single shot loaded from the muzzleloader 2700 fps magnified scope rifle use it on the any weapon hunt. Sorry for the rant but I’m tied of the bullet lobbers just because they can see the crease behind the shoulder blade with their 15x scope from 500 yards… just tune the turret mentality people. Leave that for the any weapon hunts.
 
Just like my comment on Iron sights just because you can shoot at paper and steel and that distance doesn't mean you should at game. Problem is where you draw the line...if you ban turrents, you have to ban alot of scope reticles as they are just as effective...I think more so as it saves time no turning needed. 12x scope is plenty good out to 1000 so wheres the line. Idaho I believe tried to combat this very issue by limiting overall rifle weight. For really long range you need a heavy rifle. As former 1000 yard world open champ and friend Bobby Hart would say I can shoot 1000 with a 10lb gun but it doesn't do as well as my 14lb gun which doesn't do as well as my 17lb gun etc. Maybe weight and barrel length Restrictions help who knows. All i know 40 years ago they were shooting deer at 1000 to 1400 yards back in my home state of Pennsylvania from one mountain to the next...just a group of specialized guys but now a days if you got the cash you can buy a turn key outfit capable of that with loads already made and sighted in by the builder out to those long ranges so everybody wants to do it now. Just have fish and game factor in one dead deer for each tag and we'll be all right.
 
I voted yes, they should have never made the change several years ago to allow magnified scope on muzzleloader for muzzleloader season. It was fine the way it was with the 1x scope and/or open sights muzzleloader season. If you want to see some naïve comments and lack of knowledge of the capabilities of muzzleloaders listen to the WB meeting when they passed the rule make magnified scopes legal for muzzleloader season. That alone should be reason enough to put it back to how it was before they made magnified scopes legal. Everyone may not agree with me but I’m tired of everyone thinking they have a long range muzzleloader and shooting at stuff way further then they should be shooting at stuff. Some of these people projectiles will not even perform at the distances they are shooting due to the low velocities at the point of impact. There are more factors to consider than just hitting a steel plate. Obviously this changes some with the really long range muzzleloader that are pushing projectiles at 2700 fps. This has been a sour subject with me since that WB meeting, if they had any good reason to make the change then I maybe could have lived with it but you listen to that WB meeting and be the judge. Everyone is making the point that it has not change harvest success rate any by making the change so that will make it just another point for it going back the way it was and no one should have a problem with that in that regard. No need for magnified scopes on muzzleloader during muzzleloader season. If you want to use a single shot loaded from the muzzleloader 2700 fps magnified scope rifle use it on the any weapon hunt. Sorry for the rant but I’m tied of the bullet lobbers just because they can see the crease behind the shoulder blade with their 15x scope from 500 yards… just tune the turret mentality people. Leave that for the any weapon hunts.
Do you happen to know the date of that meeting? I don’t remember watching that one I’d be interested to hear what they had too say
 
TAKE F'N NOTE!

You Take Something From The SmokePolers!

You're Gonna Take From The StickFlippers as Well!

You're Gonna Clamp Down On Long Range Rifles at The Same Time As Well!

It's Gonna Be:

ALL GAVE SOME!

Not!

Some Gave All!

Fair & F'N Square Or None Of It's Flyin!
I disagree bess.

They gave the smokepolers scopes a few years ago, and look what they did with them.

Immediately ramped that sh!t to ? and started pushing the limits and creating new tech and making it more and more main stream. Look how many new companies there are now focusing just on long range muzzleloaders.

The pole smokers did it to themselves, you guys created this mess. I don't look at it as taking it away, it's just taking it back to how it used to be.

Not saying we cant put some limits on the other things, but the only ones to blame for the current situation is the muzzy hunters.
 
WOW!

You Don't See The Advancements of Technology in The Archery & Rifle Equipment?

Just The SmokePolers?

I Guess Nobody-else with Archery & Rifles Are Pushing The Limits?

Might Wanna SPLAIN That One?

I disagree bess.

They gave the smokepolers scopes a few years ago, and look what they did with them.

Immediately ramped that sh!t to ? and started pushing the limits and creating new tech and making it more and more main stream. Look how many new companies there are now focusing just on long range muzzleloaders.

The pole smokers did it to themselves, you guys created this mess. I don't look at it as taking it away, it's just taking it back to how it used to be.

Not saying we cant put some limits on the other things, but the only ones to blame for the current situation is the muzzy hunters.
 
WOW!

You Don't See The Advancements of Technology in The Archery & Rifle Equipment?

Just The SmokePolers?

I Guess Nobody-else with Archery & Rifles Are Pushing The Limits?

Might Wanna SPLAIN That One?
Did I say that? Nope pretty sure i said we could put some limits on the other two as well, but there was specific limitations put on muzzleloaders and as soon as they was Taken away the sh!t went crazy.

How bout you Splain that one.
 
Well!

We Hunt With All 3 Weapons!

The Bow That I Thought Was Neat Shhitt in 1978 was a 40 lb Compound!

Guess They Haven't Advanced in Technology?

My First SmokePole in 1980 was a HAWKENS with a 75-100 Yard MAX Gun,Yes I Admit They Have Advanced in Technology!

In 1980 I Upgraded To a 7MAG,I Thought I Was Perty BAD at The Time Thinking I Might Make a 400 Yard Shot with it,Ya The Technology Has Advanced Way Beyond this Rifle!

Technology on ALL Weapons have went CRAZY!

But As Usual:

The STICKFLIPPERS BLAMES THE SMOKEPOLERS!

THE SMOKEPOLERS BLAME THE LONG RANGE RIFLES!

THE LONG RANGE RILERS BLAME THE STICKFLIPPERS!

AND VICE-VERSA!

AND SO ON & SO ON.........................!

WE ARE ALL F'N GUILTY & RESTRICTING THE SMOKEPOLERS ALONE IS NOT GONNA FIX THE F'N ISSUES WE HAVE ON THE GAME HERDS!





Did I say that? Nope pretty sure i said we could put some limits on the other two as well, but there was specific limitations put on muzzleloaders and as soon as they was Taken away the sh!t went crazy.

How bout you Splain that one.
 
There's No Doubt StickFlippers & SmokePolers are Smacking Game Way Harder Than They Use To!

There's No Doubt Long Range Riflers are Smacking Game out Past Ethical Distances!

It's OK When They Make The Kill!

But How Many Animals Got a Mosquito Bite at 1,000+ Yards & Limped Off & Died & Rotted?



I know it is crazy but anybody have any real data? Anybody?
I don't mind having discussions but just maybe we could try and define what we want to accomplish and then maybe make some adjustments to how to accomplish it.
 
Well!

We Hunt With All 3 Weapons!

The Bow That I Thought Was Neat Shhitt in 1978 was a 40 lb Compound!

Guess They Haven't Advanced in Technology?

My First SmokePole in 1980 was a HAWKENS with a 75-100 Yard MAX Gun,Yes I Admit They Have Advanced in Technology!

In 1980 I Upgraded To a 7MAG,I Thought I Was Perty BAD at The Time Thinking I Might Make a 400 Yard Shot with it,Ya The Technology Has Advanced Way Beyond this Rifle!

Technology on ALL Weapons have went CRAZY!

But As Usual:

The STICKFLIPPERS BLAMES THE SMOKEPOLERS!

THE SMOKEPOLERS BLAME THE LONG RANGE RIFLES!

THE LONG RANGE RILERS BLAME THE STICKFLIPPERS!

AND VICE-VERSA!

AND SO ON & SO ON.........................!

WE ARE ALL F'N GUILTY & RESTRICTING THE SMOKEPOLERS ALONE IS NOT GONNA FIX THE F'N ISSUES WE HAVE ON THE GAME HERDS!
Bess, you still won't acknowledge my initial point. There was limitations on muzzleloaders for as long as I can remember, open site and 1x scopes. Then they took the restrictions off, why can't we go back to how it was?

You got to admit the muzzloader marketing has gone through the roof the last 5 years.

Hell anyone who is a true muzzloader hunter should be all for going back, I'm sure adding scopes didn't do you guys any favors in drawing tags.

And nope, ain't gonna fix the problems with the deer herds, you've never seen me say it would, I doubt you could find anyone on this forum that has said that. And it's not just been smoke polers, they took cameras away, bateing, flir, working on new rules for guides, looks like they are gonna look at all Weapons types at that meeting coming up at the end of the month.

Pretty sure you've been negative about every one, and I'm pretty sure all are on your list of 50+ things. Cheer up bess looks like they are listening to you.
 
Here's The Deal JakeH!

All of a Sudden We Got a Group Aimed Directly At Scopes on SmokePoles!

I'm Not Against It!

But If You Are TAKING!

All 3 Weapon Types Need Restrictions as Well!

All 3 Are Not What They Use To Be!

They All 3 Are Capable Of Shooting Further!

Am I Right or Wrong?

We Are ALL Guilty with The Exception of FrontierGander!:D

Archers Shooting 80/100 Yards,GEEZUS That's as Far As I use To Shoot My HAWKENS!

SmokePolers Shooting 300/600 Yards,JUDAS That was a Long Shot For My Rifle of 1980!

Long Rang Riflers Shooting in to Next Week/1,000+ Yards,GEEZUS!

The Part That Really Amazes Me The Most,And You Can See it Right Here On MM!

Hardly a Soul Saying they wanna see the Inline SmokePole Banned,Just The Scopes upon them!

The Average Newer SmokePole Has a Range of 3 to 6 Times Further than The Old Cap & Ball Gun I Use to Shoot!

Not A Soul wanting Restrictions on the Weapon itself!

But if They Get The Scopes it's Known as Foot in the F'N Door!

Like I've said:

Make Restrictions on ALL Weapon Types & Listen To a Bunch of F'N Whiners Start BAWLING!
 
I know it is crazy but anybody have any real data? Anybody?
I don't mind having discussions but just maybe we could try and define what we want to accomplish and then maybe make some adjustments to how to accomplish it.

It would be an interesting study. There are a lot of variables at play and not just technology.

There is the increased use and influence of social media, age of hunter groups and income, amount of available PTO, weather patterns of drought vs non-drought, etc.

I highly doubt any real correlations could be found to point to a common variable except for blaming tech on everything.
 
If you want to make any difference at all to saving bucks (which again, won’t grow our herd at all) you need to start and stop with the rifle hunt.

They kill truckloads and truckloads more bucks annually than bow hunters and muzzy hunters ever kill.

I love how rifle hunters like to point to the 100 yard bows and long range muzzy but the reality and facts of the matter prove that rifles kill way more bucks.

So, I’m with ElkA on this one. Leave the bows and muzzy scopes alone unless you’re really after change which means drastic changes to rifle hunting. I’m talking technology and permit numbers.
 
In reference to roadrunner.
I would agree with your observation. Unfortunately we get to look at people who think they have it all figured out.

Good grief nobody can agree to what needs to be accomplished much less how to do it.
 
I know it is crazy but anybody have any real data? Anybody?
I don't mind having discussions but just maybe we could try and define what we want to accomplish and then maybe make some adjustments to how to accomplish it.
Pretty sure the DWR provided ample data to support the scope change a few years ago. The data said loud and clear - the change would do very little to harvest based on current success rates and permit numbers. It was really a moot point when compared to the annual harvest of the any weapon hunt.
 
Pretty sure the DWR provided ample data to support the scope change a few years ago. The data said loud and clear - the change would do very little to harvest based on current success rates and permit numbers. It was really a moot point when compared to the annual harvest of the any weapon hunt.
Exactly!!!
 
If you want to make any difference at all to saving bucks (which again, won’t grow our herd at all) you need to start and stop with the rifle hunt.

They kill truckloads and truckloads more bucks annually than bow hunters and muzzy hunters ever kill.

I love how rifle hunters like to point to the 100 yard bows and long range muzzy but the reality and facts of the matter prove that rifles kill way more bucks.

So, I’m with ElkA on this one. Leave the bows and muzzy scopes alone unless you’re really after change which means drastic changes to rifle hunting. I’m talking technology and permit numbers.
Couldn’t agree more, well said.
 
Pretty sure the DWR provided ample data to support the scope change a few years ago. The data said loud and clear - the change would do very little to harvest based on current success rates and permit numbers. It was really a moot point when compared to the annual harvest of the any weapon hunt.

If their data unequivocally showed the addition of scopes wouldn't change a thing, then why is it even a relevant item of discussion now?

If their data was wrong then, who's to say their data now is even right relative to the increased imapct it's had? Or could it be just as wrong?
 
And this is what it basically comes down to.

You are trying to define other hunters in your image. And along the way eliminate competition for tags. At least be honest.
Wrong, not trying to paint anyone anything, personally I'm not a fan of muzzloaders can't stand the stupid things. But I do see how many more people are using them and are setting them up for farther and farther shots.

Feel like they should go back to the rules they had for years.
 
C’mon Bess! They are just wanting to equal
The playin field and make utard like Cali! You know the Cali rules always head your way.
 
I dont really have a dog in this fight because I still shoot open sights on my muzzy but if we’re going to condemn the advances of muzzleloaders then maybe we should be fair and take the compound bows back to round cams and cables. While we’re at it, we should go back to fixed 4x rifle scopes.
 
Restricting scopes on muzzleloaders really only makes a difference with general season and LE deer. With Gen elk and LE Elk, the rifle guys go first. So, saying that Muzzleloader hunters are killing all the critters is not really accurate. The muzzleloader guys are getting what's left after the archers and rifle guys have gone through them.
 
We'll Still Be Friends JakeH!

But That Would Be Like Me Saying I Can't Stand Your Bow & Calling Them STUPID Just Because Your Bow Is Better Than Mine!

I've Been Toying With Weapons All My Life!

They Have All Advanced Almost Beyond Belief!

To Make It Fair Across the Board,We Need To Keep The FREE FOR ALL Weaponry the Way it is,Or Clamp Down On all 3 Weapon Types!

My First Bow I Started With Would Be Laughed at in Today's Hunting World!

My HAWKENS Would Be Laughed at!

The Rifle I Hunt With Don't Even Compare to Some of My Guns I Don't Hunt With or Guns Other Hunters are using Today!

There's Alot Of People Out There HATING Other Weapons They Don't even Use!

As Hunters I Think We Need To Stick Together!

You Wanna Make a Change to The SmokePolers, I Don't Have An Issue With It!

But To Be Fair Across The Board, Rifles & Archery Equipment will need changes as Well!

It's:

ALL NEED TO GIVE SOME!

Not:

SOME GAVE ALL!







Wrong, not trying to paint anyone anything, personally I'm not a fan of muzzloaders can't stand the stupid things. But I do see how many more people are using them and are setting them up for farther and farther shots.

Feel like they should go back to the rules they had for years.
 
Restricting scopes on muzzleloaders really only makes a difference with general season and LE deer. With Gen elk and LE Elk, the rifle guys go first. So, saying that Muzzleloader hunters are killing all the critters is not really accurate. The muzzleloader guys are getting what's left after the archers and rifle guys have gone through them.

Yep. The "emergency dive" alarm has always been about the deer herds, whether it's true, accurate, or means anything. It never really has been about elk. Elk seem to be more hardy and adaptable than deer.
 
And this is what it basically comes down to.

You are trying to define other hunters in your image. And along the way eliminate competition for tags. At least be honest.


No. The word "primitive" should come back into play.

I'm further than the OP. I'd prefer Idaho rules.

No scope, only loose powder, no sabots.


If you want to hunt rifle season, do so. If you want primitive weapon seasons, they need to be at least somewhat primitive
 
Personally love muzzleloaders and especially elk seasons. Do not care for the Idaho Oregon and Washington rule of the breach semi exposed… so I don’t apply for muzz in those states.
 
I voted for the ban on scopes. Why? After I was out hunting deer with my son on the wasatch muzzy hunt this last year with open sights....... I ran into a guy with a LE elk tag. He was having a hard time getting into elk. I had helped 2 other hunters on the rifle hunt kill elk in this area and knew it well. So I offered to help. Right off I spotted elk a few ridges away and away we went, after a few hours getting into position to spot the elk closer, we spotted them just over 400 yards away. 3 bulls, the biggest didnt give us a shot, but the #2 bull did. He finally stopped at 400 yards as I was trying to move down the ridge to get under 200, he said no, I am good out to 700 yards, set up and took the shot at 400 yards. DEAD, right in the side of the head, since that was the only opening he had. I was a little sick to my stomach. I was not a fan of that. That was further than any rifle shot I have ever taken to take an animal. Since that time, I have been turned off by long range muzzy's.

IF they want to still use them, that is fine, just use them during the any legal weapon season is my thought.
 
No. The word "primitive" should come back into play.

I'm further than the OP. I'd prefer Idaho rules.

No scope, only loose powder, no sabots.


If you want to hunt rifle season, do so. If you want primitive weapon seasons, they need to be at least somewhat primitive
There you go again assigning your own beliefs to weaponry that doesn’t suit you. They were never defined by the DWR to be primitive weapons. They were designed to give additional opportunities and spread out hunting pressure.

I love it when hunter turns on hunter. You guys are great for the sport.

To what end are we looking to limit this crap? Are you trying to save bucks? Are you trying to make it easier for yourselves to be successful on that fat spike or two point you guys slaughter from your truck on the rifle hunt?

The statistics show that adding these scopes to the muzzy hunt do nothing to the success rates. If you’re looking to make change you have got to limit the ability of the glutinous group at the table. Rifle hunters kill more deer than anyone by a landslide. It’s not even comparable.

Saying technology needs to be dealt with and then ignoring the largest users of technology is moronic and just another step in the wrong direction that Utah seems to do year in and year out.
 
I think there is a huge fallacy that people don't understand when it comes to technology restrictions...

Do you really think that if the technology restrictions go into place to "help the herd" or "increase trophy potential" that the DNR are going to keep tags numbers the same? If there ends up being more game animals because of these restrictions then they are simply going to start selling more tag (more money). After a year or two we will be right back were we started complaining about the herds and quality. Except this time we will also be complaining about how crowded the mountain is. This is and always will be more of a supply and demand issue than a technology issue.

If the argument is about "the herds" or "growing big bucks/bulls" then I think many of you are putting too much false hope in limiting technology. Tech restrictions are a band aid to a much bigger problem.
 
(Pre-scope) 2013-2015 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 33.5%
Muzzleloader scopes were legalized in 2016
(Post-scope) 2017-2019 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 35.2% (+1.7%)
In those 6 years of data of our states 29 different units, 17 units averaged an increase and 12 units averaged a decrease

How many folks have one of these missle launching muzzleloaders that shoot 2700fps OR have the ability to shoot that far?? I would guess it be very minimal. Obviously not enough to make much of a dent in success rates.
However, I’ve read the comments here. While there are a lot of opinions on style, personal ethics (which vary significantly by hunter), it’s alarming to see hunters so divided because someone else does it differently than you would.
I use a CVA accura V2 with a 3x9 and my max is 250 yards. Anything past that, I’m concerned about ft/Ibs of energy and velocity.
Open sights would probably put me 100 yards max.
I’ve tested my muzzle velocity at 1695 ft/sec and that’s what I stick with because it’s a tack driver.
besides the 50+ yearling bucks that I’ve passed on over the years, my only muzzy kill was at 85 yards, standing, free handed. Only because I needed the meat that year.
I helped my brother on a LE muzzy deer hunt 2 years ago. Spot and stalk. He and I sat on that deer for 30 minutes at 45 yards until it stood up from his bed.
I prefer a muzzy hunt in September because the weather is perfect and I typically see the most deer. Plus I like transition capes.
Although I’m not one of the missle launcher muzzy type and very few are, I can’t call into question someone else’s capabilities. All we can do is hope ALL hunters are doing their most diligent effort to respect the animals they hunt. You can’t regulate ethics.
While I’ve sat and listened to the wildlife board say that “it’s out of control” is the most ignorant and disrespectful comment. It’s over exaggerated. To claim to know who’s being ethical or not is absurd!
I’m ok with limiting how the muzzleloader is loaded if that helps minimize shot distances. I’m ok with limiting the scope to a 3x9 for those who have failing eye sight like myself and want to make a good clean kill at 200 yards.
But to claim your disdain because the next hunter does it differently than you and you want rules changed because of your opinion, is the reason the anti-hunters are sitting back laughing.
:/
 
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There you go again assigning your own beliefs to weaponry that doesn’t suit you. They were never defined by the DWR to be primitive weapons. They were designed to give additional opportunities and spread out hunting pressure.

I love it when hunter turns on hunter. You guys are great for the sport.

To what end are we looking to limit this crap? Are you trying to save bucks? Are you trying to make it easier for yourselves to be successful on that fat spike or two point you guys slaughter from your truck on the rifle hunt?

The statistics show that adding these scopes to the muzzy hunt do nothing to the success rates. If you’re looking to make change you have got to limit the ability of the glutinous group at the table. Rifle hunters kill more deer than anyone by a landslide. It’s not even comparable.

Saying technology needs to be dealt with and then ignoring the largest users of technology is moronic and just another step in the wrong direction that Utah seems to do year in and year out.
I completely agree!! Everyone who is against some form of technology should first start with yourself. If you are against a particular tool or form of technology, don’t use it, but don’t shove it down the throats of those who don’t see it you’re way.

For those that disagree with having scopes on muzzleloaders fine, simply don’t use a scope. What works for some doesn’t work for everyone. I’m sick and tired of the constant fighting amongst hunters when we should be uniting as a group. We are our own worst enemy here. Take a step back and take accountability and responsibility for you’re own actions and stop trying to regulate others for you’re own selfish desires.
 
(Pre-scope) 2013-2015 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 33.5%
Muzzleloader scopes were legalized in 2016
(Post-scope) 2017-2019 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 35.2% (+1.7%)
In those 6 years of data of our states 29 different units, 17 units averaged an increase and 12 units averaged a decrease

How many folks have one of these missle launching muzzleloaders that shoot 2700fps OR have the ability to shoot that far?? I would guess it be very minimal. Obviously not enough to make much of a dent in success rates.
However, I’ve read the comments here. While there are a lot of opinions on style, personal ethics (which vary significantly by hunter), it’s alarming to see hunters so divided because someone else does it differently than you would.
I use a CVA accura V2 with a 3x9 and my max is 250 yards. Anything past that, I’m concerned about ft/Ibs of energy and velocity.
Open sights would probably put me 100 yards max.
I’ve tested my muzzle velocity at 1695 ft/sec and that’s what I stick with because it’s a tack driver.
My only muzzy kill (besides the 50+ yearling bucks that I’ve passed on over the years) was a kill at 85 yards, standing, free handed. Only because I needed the meat that year.
I helped my brother on a LE muzzy deer hunt 2 years ago. Spot and stalk. He and I sat on that deer for 30 minutes at 45 yards until he stood up from his bed.
I prefer a muzzy hunt in September because the weather is perfect and I typically see the most deer. Plus I like transition capes. Although I’m not one of the missle launcher muzzy type, this restriction would significantly cut my killing distance.
I’m ok with limiting how the muzzleloader is loaded if that helps minimize shot distances. I’m ok with limiting the scope to a 3x9 for those who have failing eye sight like myself and want to make a good clean kill at 200 yards.
But to claim your disdain because the next hunter does it differently than you and you want rules changed because of your opinion, is the reason the anti-hunters are sitting back laughing.
:/
Well said!!!
 
(Pre-scope) 2013-2015 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 33.5%
Muzzleloader scopes were legalized in 2016
(Post-scope) 2017-2019 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 35.2% (+1.7%)
In those 6 years of data of our states 29 different units, 17 units averaged an increase and 12 units averaged a decrease

How many folks have one of these missle launching muzzleloaders that shoot 2700fps OR have the ability to shoot that far?? I would guess it be very minimal. Obviously not enough to make much of a dent in success rates.
However, I’ve read the comments here. While there are a lot of opinions on style, personal ethics (which vary significantly by hunter), it’s alarming to see hunters so divided because someone else does it differently than you would.
I use a CVA accura V2 with a 3x9 and my max is 250 yards. Anything past that, I’m concerned about ft/Ibs of energy and velocity.
Open sights would probably put me 100 yards max.
I’ve tested my muzzle velocity at 1695 ft/sec and that’s what I stick with because it’s a tack driver.
My only muzzy kill (besides the 50+ yearling bucks that I’ve passed on over the years) was a kill at 85 yards, standing, free handed. Only because I needed the meat that year.
I helped my brother on a LE muzzy deer hunt 2 years ago. Spot and stalk. He and I sat on that deer for 30 minutes at 45 yards until he stood up from his bed.
I prefer a muzzy hunt in September because the weather is perfect and I typically see the most deer. Plus I like transition capes. Although I’m not one of the missle launcher muzzy type, this restriction would significantly cut my killing distance.
I’m ok with limiting how the muzzleloader is loaded if that helps minimize shot distances. I’m ok with limiting the scope to a 3x9 for those who have failing eye sight like myself and want to make a good clean kill at 200 yards.
But to claim your disdain because the next hunter does it differently than you and you want rules changed because of your opinion, is the reason the anti-hunters are sitting back laughing.
:/
The only problem with the stats you gave is that all we know is that a deer died. But, what was the quality of that deer (size, mature, age class). Are we slightly more successful on deer in general, or are we slightly more successful on mature deer? It would be interesting to know the data from that. I get its only 1.7% increase over all, but what about age class of the 35% killed? Anyways.....just a thought.
 
The only problem with the stats you gave is that all we know is that a deer died. But, what was the quality of that deer (size, mature, age class). Are we slightly more successful on deer in general, or are we slightly more successful on mature deer? It would be interesting to know the data from that. I get its only 1.7% increase over all, but what about age class of the 35% killed? Anyways.....just a thought.
Robiland
As per mule deer plan, our GS hunts are managed for opportunity. If you don’t like the way it’s managed, take that up with them. General season hunts aren’t managed for quality (mature bucks) although finding them in general season hunts are literally what I live for and is my personal challenge. (Hence why I pass on so many yearling bucks annually)
But then again, I’m not gonna knock the guy who doesn’t do it the same as myself.
I purposely pulled the data I did because:
1- there’s more data to gather information for GS
2-LE hunts people typically go harder, hire guides etc

I chose to gather information and be unbiased
 
I completely agree!! Everyone who is against some form of technology should first start with yourself. If you are against a particular tool or form of technology, don’t use it, but don’t shove it down the throats of those who don’t see it you’re way.

For those that disagree with having scopes on muzzleloaders fine, simply don’t use a scope. What works for some doesn’t work for everyone. I’m sick and tired of the constant fighting amongst hunters when we should be uniting as a group. We are our own worst enemy here. Take a step back and take accountability and responsibility for you’re own actions and stop trying to regulate others for you’re own selfish desires.
I agree we need to unite, but at some point we have to police ourselves with technology.
It evolves because we continue to accept it as part of our arsenal.
Finding that balance amongst us is the challenge.
 
Robiland
As per mule deer plan, our GS hunts are managed for opportunity. If you don’t like the way it’s managed, take that up with them. General season hunts aren’t managed for quality (mature bucks) although finding them in general season hunts are literally what I live for and is my personal challenge. (Hence why I pass on so many yearling bucks annually)
But then again, I’m not gonna knock the guy who doesn’t do it the same as myself.
I purposely pulled the data I did because:
1- there’s more data to gather information for GS
2-LE hunts people typically go harder, hire guides etc

I chose to gather information and be unbiased
Never said I had a problem with it. Just mentioned that are we more successful on mature deer with the scopes VS the opportunity buck on the side of the road?

My thought is that we cant continue to knock off the top end (mature bucks) year in and year out due to our technology. I get general season is general season. And maybe that is why we need 1 application for deer, not general and LE, since we all know both are LE. Just managed differently each unit. Just like all other states.
 
I agree we need to unite, but at some point we have to police ourselves with technology.
It evolves because we continue to accept it as part of our arsenal.
Finding that balance amongst us is the challenge.
Slam, I 100% agree with you.
On this subject, I don’t believe that the majority of hunters posses the ability and/or equipment to kill at distances that are unfair to the animal. Nor are the majority willing to. For the WB to claim to know it to be a fact or true is naive on their part.
They might make that assumption but I don’t believe we should managing hunters based on hunches or assumptions when it could be dramatically taking time away from more important efforts
 
Never said I had a problem with it. Just mentioned that are we more successful on mature deer with the scopes VS the opportunity buck on the side of the road?

My thought is that we cant continue to knock off the top end (mature bucks) year in and year out due to our technology. I get general season is general season. And maybe that is why we need 1 application for deer, not general and LE, since we all know both are LE. Just managed differently each unit. Just like all other states.
I am one who would support splitting up some of our GS deer units/hunts for quality.
But there is also a much easier solution to your stance. Decrease tags.
But I am all for adding a 4th tier of hunting.
(premium, LE, GS, and “premium GS)

I can’t speak for everyone but my personal experience is this.
The past two years of scouting and helping archery hunters on GS has had me seeing the best quality (mature bucks) ever since 2008. With one buck at near 190 inches and 2-3 in the 170 range. All in the same easy to draw unit. Bedding right under the noses of archery hunters.
Another easy to draw unit I found a 180 inch deer on opening of archery season. With hunters all around.
The quality is there because I see it.
Most just don’t want to do the work to find them.
No camera needed either :)
 
Slam, I 100% agree with you.
On this subject, I don’t believe that the majority of hunters posses the ability and/or equipment to kill at distances that are unfair to the animal. Nor are the majority willing to. For the WB to claim to know it to be a fact or true is naive on their part.
They might make that assumption but I don’t believe we should managing hunters based on hunches or assumptions when it could be dramatically taking time away from more important efforts
I completely agree,and Is why I have been saying "long range shooters are about 2% of hunters".
I can't recall where the 2% came from, but it was a confident source.
It also prompted me to post "what is long range".

I also agree with @hossblur that the average hunter isn't to blame for these changes, but it is them that has to bare the burden.
 
I know it is crazy but anybody have any real data? Anybody?
I don't mind having discussions but just maybe we could try and define what we want to accomplish and then maybe make some adjustments to how to accomplish it.
I’ve gathered harvest success rates for GS muzzy deer to see if technology advancements have made an impact. I haven’t seen data from anyone else
My purpose of pulling the data I did was due to statements of assumption that “we’ve gotten too good at killing animals” from specific WB members.
Which if it were a true statement, success rates would loudly indicate this but I couldn’t see it.
I’ve shared my data on FB hunting groups and it’s conclusion on this thread.
 
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Never said I had a problem with it. Just mentioned that are we more successful on mature deer with the scopes VS the opportunity buck on the side of the road?

My thought is that we cant continue to knock off the top end (mature bucks) year in and year out due to our technology. I get general season is general season. And maybe that is why we need 1 application for deer, not general and LE, since we all know both are LE. Just managed differently each unit. Just like all other states.
Why?
 
There you go again assigning your own beliefs to weaponry that doesn’t suit you. They were never defined by the DWR to be primitive weapons. They were designed to give additional opportunities and spread out hunting pressure.

I love it when hunter turns on hunter. You guys are great for the sport.

To what end are we looking to limit this crap? Are you trying to save bucks? Are you trying to make it easier for yourselves to be successful on that fat spike or two point you guys slaughter from your truck on the rifle hunt?

The statistics show that adding these scopes to the muzzy hunt do nothing to the success rates. If you’re looking to make change you have got to limit the ability of the glutinous group at the table. Rifle hunters kill more deer than anyone by a landslide. It’s not even comparable.

Saying technology needs to be dealt with and then ignoring the largest users of technology is moronic and just another step in the wrong direction that Utah seems to do year in and year out.


I love that spin.

"My definition"

Since I'm old enough to have hunted PRIOR to inlines, I might have a little idea.

And AGAIN it's the same talking points.

Here's a fact. I still own a Thompson New Englander. Shooting .90 grains of powder, a 390 gr lead slug, primed by a #11, with iron sights, it was at best a 100yr gun. Outside that, the sight would cover the animal.

My CVA Accura shooting #209, 777, 245gr sabot even with the garbage package scope is a 250+ gun all day.

Why not go after rifles first? It's harder. How are you going to do it? I shoot an 06', they've been around since WW2 surplus. How are you going to slow it down? It was the gun of choice DURING the golden age of mulies. Hard to prove it's the problem.

Pulling scopes off muzzies makes a difference. Taking 209 and sabots does as well. And it doesn't render guns useless.

Eventually we are going to control rifles by cutting rifle tags and seasons. By making success rates lower with muzzies, we don't have to lose hunters, just change their weapon choice.
 
I am one who would support splitting up some of our GS deer units/hunts for quality.
But there is also a much easier solution to your stance. Decrease tags.
But I am all for adding a 4th tier of hunting.
(premium, LE, GS, and “premium GS)

I can’t speak for everyone but my personal experience is this.
The past two years of scouting and helping archery hunters on GS has had me seeing the best quality (mature bucks) ever since 2008. With one buck at near 190 inches and 2-3 in the 170 range. All in the same easy to draw unit. Bedding right under the noses of archery hunters.
Another easy to draw unit I found a 180 inch deer on opening of archery season. With hunters all around.
The quality is there because I see it.
Most just don’t want to do the work to find them.
No camera needed either :)


You don't have to decrease tags. You need to shift them away from rifles.

For political and economic reasons, we can't just keep cutting out hunters.
 
(Pre-scope) 2013-2015 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 33.5%
Muzzleloader scopes were legalized in 2016
(Post-scope) 2017-2019 GS muzzy deer success rates statewide averaged 35.2% (+1.7%)
In those 6 years of data of our states 29 different units, 17 units averaged an increase and 12 units averaged a decrease

How many folks have one of these missle launching muzzleloaders that shoot 2700fps OR have the ability to shoot that far?? I would guess it be very minimal. Obviously not enough to make much of a dent in success rates.
However, I’ve read the comments here. While there are a lot of opinions on style, personal ethics (which vary significantly by hunter), it’s alarming to see hunters so divided because someone else does it differently than you would.
I use a CVA accura V2 with a 3x9 and my max is 250 yards. Anything past that, I’m concerned about ft/Ibs of energy and velocity.
Open sights would probably put me 100 yards max.
I’ve tested my muzzle velocity at 1695 ft/sec and that’s what I stick with because it’s a tack driver.
besides the 50+ yearling bucks that I’ve passed on over the years, my only muzzy kill was at 85 yards, standing, free handed. Only because I needed the meat that year.
I helped my brother on a LE muzzy deer hunt 2 years ago. Spot and stalk. He and I sat on that deer for 30 minutes at 45 yards until it stood up from his bed.
I prefer a muzzy hunt in September because the weather is perfect and I typically see the most deer. Plus I like transition capes.
Although I’m not one of the missle launcher muzzy type and very few are, I can’t call into question someone else’s capabilities. All we can do is hope ALL hunters are doing their most diligent effort to respect the animals they hunt. You can’t regulate ethics.
While I’ve sat and listened to the wildlife board say that “it’s out of control” is the most ignorant and disrespectful comment. It’s over exaggerated. To claim to know who’s being ethical or not is absurd!
I’m ok with limiting how the muzzleloader is loaded if that helps minimize shot distances. I’m ok with limiting the scope to a 3x9 for those who have failing eye sight like myself and want to make a good clean kill at 200 yards.
But to claim your disdain because the next hunter does it differently than you and you want rules changed because of your opinion, is the reason the anti-hunters are sitting back laughing.
:/


Now do the success rates prior to scopes, sabots, 209

Don't cherry pick data. Once muzzies became single shot rifles, not primitive weapons, the success rates blew up.
 
Never said I had a problem with it. Just mentioned that are we more successful on mature deer with the scopes VS the opportunity buck on the side of the road?

My thought is that we cant continue to knock off the top end (mature bucks) year in and year out due to our technology. I get general season is general season. And maybe that is why we need 1 application for deer, not general and LE, since we all know both are LE. Just managed differently each unit. Just like all other states.
What is the problem with harvesting mature animals isn't that proper management? I would much rather see guys successful on harvesting mature bucks then seeing a pile of young bucks being harvested.
 
Please explain what the issue is?
For profit
Screenshot_20200304-174921_Gallery.jpg
 
baiting is a non-issue now.
Yes you are correct and so are cams.
My comments are just in support of.

I'm not against outfitters, I did it for 20 years, I am just about how its being done as of to date.
Level the playing field, the guides will still have success without the gadgetry.
 
I am one of the 2% as I built a "Long Range" Muzzy. Built specifically for a Henry Mountains tag for this fall. I will admit, I still giggle that I have a drop chart for my Smoke Pole. haha. This gun is deadly and accurate out to 500 yards. It shoots much further, but IMO does not have the energy to be an efficient killer beyond 500. I too am also for restricting these type of weapons. However, if you restrict and then put double the people in the field, what is left has nowhere to hide. We just push them over the next hill where another is waiting . You can send (10) Snipers in to kill them out or (100) with rocks. They still get get killed. Ultimately, it is either about building herds (Bucks & Does) or putting more people in the field. I personally don't see how we can have both.
 
Now do the success rates prior to scopes, sabots, 209

Don't cherry pick data. Once muzzies became single shot rifles, not primitive weapons, the success rates blew up.
You can take the scope off my muzzleloader and im still going to be just as successful. There have been many advancements in technology a scope being removed will do nothing.
 
I am one of the 2% as I built a "Long Range" Muzzy. Built specifically for a Henry Mountains tag for this fall. I will admit, I still giggle that I have a drop chart for my Smoke Pole. haha. This gun is deadly and accurate out to 500 yards. It shoots much further, but IMO does not have the energy to be an efficient killer beyond 500. I too am also for restricting these type of weapons. However, if you restrict and then put double the people in the field, what is left has nowhere to hide. We just push them over the next hill where another is waiting . You can send (10) Snipers in to kill them out or (100) with rocks. They still get get killed. Ultimately, it is either about building herds (Bucks & Does) or putting more people in the field. I personally don't see how we can have both.
Out of the 2% of people that have a " long range muzzy" I would be willing to bet only 1% actually know how to shoot long range with a muzzy. So is taking away from that 1% really going to solve anything here.
 
Thank y
Out of the 2% of people that have a " long range muzzy" I would be willing to bet only 1% actually know how to shoot long range with a muzzy. So is taking away from that 1% really going to solve anything here.
Thank you for validating my comments and point!!?
 
Now do the success rates prior to scopes, sabots, 209

Don't cherry pick data. Once muzzies became single shot rifles, not primitive weapons, the success rates blew up.
Hoss,
I spent probably an hour gathering the information that I already have.
Step up to the plate.
My point was simple. You could take my scope away and I still could kill every time I get a tag instead of killing once in a decade like I currently choose to
 
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Out of the 2% of people that have a " long range muzzy" I would be willing to bet only 1% actually know how to shoot long range with a muzzy. So is taking away from that 1% really going to solve anything here.
No. I dont believe it does. My opinion are all these restrictions put in place and being talked about are directed primarily at LE units. I do think what is happening on LE units is a little out of control. Top that with sniper capability and yes, the top end bucks are being slammed. But overall, especially GE, the off the road meat hunter is still going to get his buck regardless of restriction. and the small percentage of hunters finding and hunting trophy class bucks are going to be the same small percentage and will still be able to get it done even with the restrictions.
 
And It's No F'N Different Than Banning The Lion Hunting in KALI!

Or Trying To Ban Black Guns!

They'll Pick on the Easiest For Them First!

I Don't Have A Problem With it As Long As The Other 2 Weapon Types Get Restrictions As Well!

Fair is Fair!

Or it at least it Used To Be!

It Will Be a CHICKEN-SSHHIT Move if They only Put Restrictions on SmokePoles!
except they didn't have scopes prior to 2016. Also, that vote goes up today with the muzzleloaders that are available and it never passes in the first place. That being said. If we just got ride of the range finder I think that would probably be far across the board for all weapon types.
 
Why, well, do the does just let 1st buck come along to bread her? Or do they wait until its time and they are hot and a mature buck walks by? With fewer mature bucks, it may take longer to bread the does. Hence, 2nd cycles. If the majority of the does were bread 1st cycle, the fawns will drop sooner and be healthier for the winter. That is just my thought. No science or studies. I am like the rest of you, I want to kill the biggest buck every year. That might be why I only have 4 mature bucks on the wall. I could have more, but I suck at hunting sometimes, LOL.
 
Why, well, do the does just let 1st buck come along to bread her? Or do they wait until its time and they are hot and a mature buck walks by? With fewer mature bucks, it may take longer to bread the does. Hence, 2nd cycles. If the majority of the does were bread 1st cycle, the fawns will drop sooner and be healthier for the winter. That is just my thought. No science or studies. I am like the rest of you, I want to kill the biggest buck every year. That might be why I only have 4 mature bucks on the wall. I could have more, but I suck at hunting sometimes, LOL.
What is you definition of Mature? You don't need 6-7 year old bucks to breed a doe.

I think that shooting the oldest bucks every year is a good thing.
 
except they didn't have scopes prior to 2016. Also, that vote goes up today with the muzzleloaders that are available and it never passes in the first place. That being said. If we just got ride of the range finder I think that would probably be far across the board for all weapon types.

What really needs to happen is a refreshing of the public lands transfer debate in UT to really give something legitimate to gripe and crusade about...
 
Eventually we are going to control rifles by cutting rifle tags and seasons. By making success rates lower with muzzies, we don't have to lose hunters, just change their weapon choice.
When that .-06 is killing more deer annually than the scoped inline muzzleloader, it’s pretty easy to identify it as a problem. Maybe not THE problem, but it definitely isn’t helping any.

You really believe restricting a guy’s weapon will be the difference between him cutting a tag or not cutting a tag? Maybe we need to do a survey and see who’s killing deer EVERY year they have a permit compared to guys who don’t have a 100% success rate. A killer will always be a killer. Might not kill the target animal anymore, but that tag will still likely be filled.

I’d like to see a voluntary experiment from a group of hunters. Find a couple guys who have filled 4 of the last 4 muzzleloader deer tags they have had with a scoped inline. Find a couple guys who have been 0 for 4 on their tags. Then take that inline away and hand them a muzzleloader that meets the requirements of Idaho or a state with similar restrictions. Give them the same amount of time to hunt, And let’s see if deer are still being killed and who’s killing them. I think the results would be surprising (to you anyway).

10% kill 90%.
 
When that .-06 is killing more deer annually than the scoped inline muzzleloader, it’s pretty easy to identify it as a problem. Maybe not THE problem, but it definitely isn’t helping any.

You really believe restricting a guy’s weapon will be the difference between him cutting a tag or not cutting a tag? Maybe we need to do a survey and see who’s killing deer EVERY year they have a permit compared to guys who don’t have a 100% success rate. A killer will always be a killer. Might not kill the target animal anymore, but that tag will still likely be filled.

I’d like to see a voluntary experiment from a group of hunters. Find a couple guys who have filled 4 of the last 4 muzzleloader deer tags they have had with a scoped inline. Find a couple guys who have been 0 for 4 on their tags. Then take that inline away and hand them a muzzleloader that meets the requirements of Idaho or a state with similar restrictions. Give them the same amount of time to hunt, And let’s see if deer are still being killed and who’s killing them. I think the results would be surprising (to you anyway).

10% kill 90%.


How old are you? Serious question

When did you start muzzy hunting? Serious question
 
What is you definition of Mature? You don't need 6-7 year old bucks to breed a doe.

I think that shooting the oldest bucks every year is a good thing.
Ask Colorado how that is going, shooting all the big bucks the last 3-4 years with latest seasons ever to combat CWD and killing the mature bucks on every unit.

ITs great to shoot big bucks. No problem with that. I want to kill one very year....

But to make it so we can so much easier with technology is not a good thing.
 
When that .-06 is killing more deer annually than the scoped inline muzzleloader, it’s pretty easy to identify it as a problem. Maybe not THE problem, but it definitely isn’t helping any.

You really believe restricting a guy’s weapon will be the difference between him cutting a tag or not cutting a tag? Maybe we need to do a survey and see who’s killing deer EVERY year they have a permit compared to guys who don’t have a 100% success rate. A killer will always be a killer. Might not kill the target animal anymore, but that tag will still likely be filled.

I’d like to see a voluntary experiment from a group of hunters. Find a couple guys who have filled 4 of the last 4 muzzleloader deer tags they have had with a scoped inline. Find a couple guys who have been 0 for 4 on their tags. Then take that inline away and hand them a muzzleloader that meets the requirements of Idaho or a state with similar restrictions. Give them the same amount of time to hunt, And let’s see if deer are still being killed and who’s killing them. I think the results would be surprising (to you anyway).

10% kill 90%.
 
You really believe restricting a guy’s weapon will be the difference between him cutting a tag or not cutting a tag? Maybe we need to do a survey and see who’s killing deer EVERY year they have a permit compared to guys who don’t have a 100% success rate. A killer will always be a killer. Might not kill the target animal anymore, but that tag will still likely be filled.



Yes. Feel free to look at rifle vs muzzy vs archery for the answer.

Look at the owner of this site.

Go

back and look at all the deer he's killed, how many were archery. And he's probably in the top 1% of deer hunters in the west.

Same as with cams. NO ONE spends money on tools that dont work.
 
We all know the technology and advancements in hunting have made us better at harvesting animals archery,muzzleloader and rifle. Some guys like the new stuff some like the old ways. I dont think taking away from the way a guy likes to hunt is the answer. Its just going to be a constant circle of what's the next guy going to give up because they took from me. Maybe if we are this successful now days we look at how long we actually need to hunt. Maybe we look at shortening hunt dates to meet harvest rates. Shortening seasons doesn't cut tags and stills allows guys to get out and hunt the way they choose.
 
What baffles me is that the consensus seems to be that if a particular buck doesn't fall to a long range weapon by description, it won't fall to a 30-06 by the end of the season.
A dead deer is a dead deer regardless of WHAT kills it.
 
What baffles me is that the consensus seems to be that if a particular buck doesn't fall to a long range weapon by description, it won't fall to a 30-06 by the end of the season.
A dead deer is a dead deer regardless of WHAT kills it.
Exactly. Limiting or restricting muzzleloaders is just setting things up for a banner rifle deer hunt. One restriction won’t fix a thing. But restrictions across all weapons MIGHT have some impact. That still doesn’t fix the DEER problem. People in utah have somehow got the impression that bucks make babies. Maybe BYU should do a study on that so people will understand that concept
 
You really believe restricting a guy’s weapon will be the difference between him cutting a tag or not cutting a tag? Maybe we need to do a survey and see who’s killing deer EVERY year they have a permit compared to guys who don’t have a 100% success rate. A killer will always be a killer. Might not kill the target animal anymore, but that tag will still likely be filled.



Yes. Feel free to look at rifle vs muzzy vs archery for the answer.

Look at the owner of this site.

Go

back and look at all the deer he's killed, how many were archery. And he's probably in the top 1% of deer hunters in the west.

Same as with cams. NO ONE spends money on tools that dont work.
There’s guys killing big deer with all weapon types year after year after year. Archery, muzzleloader, rifle or even handguns, they are killing giants. Just because they aren’t posting about it every 10 minutes doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

Look at Sean Morgan for example. He kills a “trophy” buck every year with a bow and almost none are taken with a firearm. Some of those bucks are world class animals, bigger than what the owner of this site has killed with a rifle. Weapons play little part in a persons success if they are a good hunter and know what they are doing.
 
I love that spin.

"My definition"

Since I'm old enough to have hunted PRIOR to inlines, I might have a little idea.

And AGAIN it's the same talking points.

Here's a fact. I still own a Thompson New Englander. Shooting .90 grains of powder, a 390 gr lead slug, primed by a #11, with iron sights, it was at best a 100yr gun. Outside that, the sight would cover the animal.

My CVA Accura shooting #209, 777, 245gr sabot even with the garbage package scope is a 250+ gun all day.

Why not go after rifles first? It's harder. How are you going to do it? I shoot an 06', they've been around since WW2 surplus. How are you going to slow it down? It was the gun of choice DURING the golden age of mulies. Hard to prove it's the problem.

Pulling scopes off muzzies makes a difference. Taking 209 and sabots does as well. And it doesn't render guns useless.

Eventually we are going to control rifles by cutting rifle tags and seasons. By making success rates lower with muzzies, we don't have to lose hunters, just change their weapon choice.
I grew up hunting with my hawken I built in high school shop class. Still have it. I also have an inline. I love how you’re the leading authority on everything and none of us know a damn thing about anything.

My point is this:

You and slam are pushing for a change to the muzzleloader. You’re claiming that it will make a difference.

The data shows otherwise. If you’re trying to make a difference I believe you tackle the issue that gets you the biggest bang for your buck.

Slam says it’s 2% of the shooters are long range shooters. So, how many bucks a year does that translate to that are killed based on this technology? How many of those would have been shot anyways? The net gain to this piss poor shotgun approach to public perception is almost zero.

You don’t want to change the rifle technology even tho it is undeniable that they have greater technology and kill thousands more bucks annually because it’s “harder”??

How convenient….

If you’re looking to make meaningful change, do it right. Quit attacking another’s hunting choices because it’s the easy topic of the day. Instead let’s make meaningful changes or Leave it alone.
 
Exactly. Limiting or restricting muzzleloaders is just setting things up for a banner rifle deer hunt. One restriction won’t fix a thing. But restrictions across all weapons MIGHT have some impact. That still doesn’t fix the DEER problem. People in utah have somehow got the impression that bucks make babies. Maybe BYU should do a study on that so people will understand that concept
Great post.
These changes aren't meant to increase our deer herds, that is an entirely different subject.

As an FYI, BYU biologists are already on board with the state and have conducted many collaring studies along with several other ongoing studies.
Corridors are a main study focus and how urban sprawl is affecting migration routes and habitat loss.
 
I grew up hunting with my hawken I built in high school shop class. Still have it. I also have an inline. I love how you’re the leading authority on everything and none of us know a damn thing about anything.

My point is this:

You and slam are pushing for a change to the muzzleloader. You’re claiming that it will make a difference.

The data shows otherwise. If you’re trying to make a difference I believe you tackle the issue that gets you the biggest bang for your buck.

Slam says it’s 2% of the shooters are long range shooters. So, how many bucks a year does that translate to that are killed based on this technology? How many of those would have been shot anyways? The net gain to this piss poor shotgun approach to public perception is almost zero.

You don’t want to change the rifle technology even tho it is undeniable that they have greater technology and kill thousands more bucks annually because it’s “harder”??

How convenient….

If you’re looking to make meaningful change, do it right. Quit attacking another’s hunting choices because it’s the easy topic of the day. Instead let’s make meaningful changes or Leave it alone.
Not true at all.
I have never stated I want muzzleloader scopes gone, I have only stated that I would happily adapt to the change and remove my 4x12 off of mine without complaining if and when that time comes.

For the record, I have never killed a muzzleloader buck over 200 yards, but the one I did kill at 200 was before variables were allowed.
I had a 1x for that kill.

Also......I have never spoken out against any individual weapon, I have only voiced opposition towards baiting, camera's, FLIR, night vision, etc, etc.
I have never went after anyone's bow, muzzy or rifle.
 
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