OH YA!!! TAKE THE MUZZ SCOPES!!!

She's literally just pulling the trigger though, right.? I mean, for a couple shots she's still talking when she sends it... can't do that if you're controlling the rifle at all, especially at that range. I feel like my 12 year old daughter could lay down and squeeze that trigger and hit that target. LOL

Anyway, this is more about building a gun and a bullet that can shoot a target at ELR... not about fair chase.
 
So?

You Don't Think There Are Hunters in the Field Packing one of these in an F-350 Shootin at Shhiit Most of us can't even see?



BrowningRage said:
She's literally just pulling the trigger though, right.? I mean, for a couple shots she's still talking when she sends it... can't do that if you're controlling the rifle at all, especially at that range. I feel like my 12 year old daughter could lay down and squeeze that trigger and hit that target. LOL

Anyway, this is more about building a gun and a bullet that can shoot a target at ELR... not about fair chase.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
So?

You Don't Think There Are Hunters in the Field Packing one of these in an F-350 Shootin at Shhiit Most of us can't even see?
Click to expand...


Tons of them! I’ve seen them on every ridge in the Basin. People are rocking this setup all over the place.
 
long range rifles and scopes on muzzle loaders are two separate issues. the modern rifle season is just that, modern equipment. the whole point of the primitive seasons getting better dates is the weapon has less advantage. well now theirs 700 yard muzzle loaders. not a single state should allow scopes on muzzle loaders for the primitive season. want to use it during modern, go nuts. they should be open sights. period
 
JPickett said:
long range rifles and scopes on muzzle loaders are two separate issues. the modern rifle season is just that, modern equipment. the whole point of the primitive seasons getting better dates is the weapon has less advantage. well now theirs 700 yard muzzle loaders. not a single state should allow scopes on muzzle loaders for the primitive season. want to use it during modern, go nuts. they should be open sights. period
Click to expand...
I agree... that's why it's called "Any Legal Weapon" and not "modern rifle" or the like...
 
If You're Gonna TAKE!

You're Gonna TAKE Equally!

I'm Not Against It!

But You Will Have Changes On Your Rifle & Your Archery Equipment!

Careful What You Wish For!



JPickett said:
Sure. Shorten the seasons and move them out if the rut. Oh wait, that’d be modern season
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
If You're Gonna TAKE!

You're Gonna TAKE Equally!
Click to expand...

I can almost guarantee any changes will not be “equal.” And certainly won’t feel “equal” to any sub-group that gets any kind of restriction.

The technology thing is pretty easy for me. There are things that clearly cross the line and really should be easy for all of us. No thermal imaging. That’s easy. No drones for finding animals. That’s easy. No transmitting trail cams. Might be controversial to some, but that one seems easy too.

Outside of the clearly easy ones…just leave them alone. The dirty little secret about Utah muzzleloader season is it was NEVER intended to be a primitive weapon hunt. I can’t speak for other states, but in Utah it was never intended to be that. So why try to make it one now?
 
Hey Niller?

That Really You Typing That?

Vanilla said:
I can almost guarantee any changes will not be “equal.” And certainly won’t feel “equal” to any sub-group that gets any kind of restriction.

The technology thing is pretty easy for me. There are things that clearly cross the line and really should be easy for all of us. No thermal imaging. That’s easy. No drones for finding animals. That’s easy. No transmitting trail cams. Might be controversial to some, but that one seems easy too.

Outside of the clearly easy ones…just leave them alone. The dirty little secret about Utah muzzleloader season is it was NEVER intended to be a primitive weapon hunt. I can’t speak for other states, but in Utah it was never intended to be that. So why try to make it one now?
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Niller?

That Really You Typing That?
Click to expand...

Yes sir. Me and only me. This isn't new for me. None of this is new. I've said all along that when hunting becomes the limiting factor for our animals then I'm more willing to start looking at managing hunters more strictly. But hunting is not the limiting factor on our herds, so why keep trying to tell someone what color of pants they have to wear?

The big outcry right now is "fair chase" and "ethics" in technology. There are things that are easy and clearly cross lines. Get rid of those things. For the things that a small group of people might feel violate their ethics, leave them alone. No reason to make those changes, IMO.

So many people want to restrict hunters and negatively impact other hunters. I want us all to be able to go hunting and enjoy it. But I'm not president of the Humane Society or PETA either. I just like hunting and I'm okay that others do too.
 
If Utah DWR did their job then we’d have plenty of animals to shoot with any weapon during any season. The only reason we restrict this or that is because of the scarcity of animals, the ever failing policies/objectives of the DWR and in the end we cannibalise ourselves as hunters.
 
travishunter3006 said:
If Utah DWR did their job then we’d have plenty of animals to shoot with any weapon during any season. The only reason we restrict this or that is because of the scarcity of animals, the ever failing policies/objectives of the DWR and in the end we cannibalise ourselves as hunters.
Click to expand...
Why do you think they don’t do their job? If all the animals go extinct they would be out of a job right.
 
Rifles were invented and developed to shoot longer ranges, that is the very point of their existence. The 300 win mag was developed in 1963 for example and still one of today's most popular round.
It's the optics that make them "longer".

Archery doesn't shoot "long range".
They may be more accurate with gadgetry, but Archery equipment is still a "close range weapon".

Muzzleloaders have changed dramatically and probably the most of the 3.
Not just the rifles themselves, but the powders, the bullets, the ignition system and the ability to mount modern rifle scopes to them.

To think there has to be equal takeaways from all to be fair is an emotionally driven statement, some will get more, some less.

One bit of technology that all three has benefitted immensely from is the rangefinder, and the rangefinders them selves have exploded and found themselves built right in sighting systems for all three weapons.
This is where is can see a beneficial regulation of some sort.
 
slamdunk said:
To think there has to be equal takeaways from all to be fair is an emotionally driven statement, some will get more, some less.
Click to expand...
Now there’s a good post. Particularly the above quote.

I would ask for all those that want scoped muzzle loaders that shoot 700 yards to be legal equipment, what’s the point of a muzzle loader only season? At that point let the rifle guys hunt it too.

And to add to slams point when the inevitable “we’ll take something from archery too” nonsense comes up. There is no amount of equipment I could add to make my bow a 700 yard weapon. Not quite comparable
 
slamdunk said:
And I am primarily a muzzy hunter.....
Click to expand...
And I imagine because you like that season, it’s challenges and the weapon. I get it, I’m primarily an archer for the same reasons. I don’t want to see electronics on bows either.

I’ll wait patiently for the “wull why don’t you just shoot a long bow then?!!” drivel that always follows
 
Vanilla said:
I can almost guarantee any changes will not be “equal.” And certainly won’t feel “equal” to any sub-group that gets any kind of restriction.

The technology thing is pretty easy for me. There are things that clearly cross the line and really should be easy for all of us. No thermal imaging. That’s easy. No drones for finding animals. That’s easy. No transmitting trail cams. Might be controversial to some, but that one seems easy too.

Outside of the clearly easy ones…just leave them alone. The dirty little secret about Utah muzzleloader season is it was NEVER intended to be a primitive weapon hunt. I can’t speak for other states, but in Utah it was never intended to be that. So why try to make it one now?
Click to expand...
Vanilla, I agree with you….. most of the time….. however, you are misinformed about Utah’s muzzleloader season. Very very misinformed. I’ve discussed it before on this forum and I’m too tired and too dissolution, to do it again….. if you would like a detailed history on the origin of the Utah muzzleloader season, PM me your phone number and I’ll share the details.

In truth, I guess, it doesn’t matter at all, at this point in time.
 
I still manage to enjoy my scope-free ml hunts over here. One less thing to worry about :)

And lump, I assume the season was established as a “primitive weapon” hunt? Don’t know the backstory there in Utah. No need for a lengthy answer ;)
 
For The BILLIONTH F'N Time:

Every Weapon Has Seen Major Advancements in Technology in The Last Many Decades!

I Hunt/Use All 3!

This BS Of Harping On Just One Weapon Type is Total BS!

I Totally Agree We've Went Too Far!

But That Goes For All 3 Weapon Types!

If You're Gonna Take!

You're Gonna Take From All 3!

And I'm Totally OK With Taking Some Back!

But It's Gonna Be TAKE From All 3 Weapon Types!

Taking Scopes Away From SmokePolers Fixes ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing with The Declining Herds!

Amazing How Most People Think This Alone Would Fix a FUBAR Game Management! Plan!

When You Decide To Make 50+ Other Changes Let Me Know!
 
elkassassin said:
For The BILLIONTH F'N Time:

Every Weapon Has Seen Major Advancements in Technology in The Last Many Decades!

I Hunt/Use All 3!

This BS Of Harping On Just One Weapon Type is Total BS!

I Totally Agree We've Went Too Far!

But That Goes For All 3 Weapon Types!

If You're Gonna Take!

You're Gonna Take From All 3!

And I'm Totally OK With Taking Some Back!

But It's Gonna Be TAKE From All 3 Weapon Types!

Taking Scopes Away From SmokePolers Fixes ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing with The Declining Herds!

Amazing How Most People Think This Alone Would Fix a FUBAR Game Management! Plan!

When You Decide To Make 50+ Other Changes Let Me Know!
Click to expand...
i never said it would "fix" a thing. simply that putting scopes on muzzle loaders makes them for all intents and purposes, rifles. so whats the point of the season, just open it up for everything.
 
its really pretty simple. keep the weapons to a point where the better dates/opportunities are an incentive to use the more primitive weapon. that's really been lost in the age of insta-fame-kill

archery-no electronics on bows
no magnifying optics
let off restrictions
no cross bows

muzzle loaders- no magnifying optics
loose powder
(those two really a big stretch?)

modern- well toothpaste is out of the tube on this one. for example i have a rifle, scope and range finder that a deer cant hide in a 1000 yards from me. all of which would be impossible to regulate without completely changing the standard of what the modern rifle has always been. i think electronics should be kept off rifles and that can be done. nix the "aim for you scopes" but short of that anyone with a chronograph and a basic under standing of a calculator o your phone can still get to 1000 yards.

the answer there is shorten the season and make the dates in less opportune times. im fine with that too
 
Last edited:
Bluehair said:
I still manage to enjoy my scope-free ml hunts over here. One less thing to worry about :)

And lump, I assume the season was established as a “primitive weapon” hunt? Don’t know the backstory there in Utah. No need for a lengthy answer ;)
Click to expand...
100% for a Primitive Weapon hunt. 100% driven by the long gone Utah State Muzzleloader Federation, represented by Al Rucksaker President, supported by Utah State Archers and the all powerful (pre 1993) and also long gone, Utah Wildlife Ferderation. Vigorously opposed by Utah’s Department of Wildlife Resources, represented by Norman Handcock, in all five public hearings, before the Utah Wildlife Big Game Board. During the late 1970’s.

A requested season was for after all other mule deer hunts were over, so as not to offend any archers or any weapon (rifle) season. Muzzleloader’s agreed to take, “the left overs” in order to hunt with a primitive weapon. 100% driven by hunters wanting a primitive weapon, non-archer, hunting season.

The first inline muzzleloader didn’t come to market until 1985 by Tony Knight.

In all reality, I personally wish I/we had failed and Mr. Hancock and the DWR had won. In the 1970’s sportsmen including muzzleloaders had no idea mule deer where going to crash and muzzleloaders and people like myself are every bit to blame for allowing it to happen by demanding more and more and more opportunity, with more and more lethal weaponry. Not to mention elkassassin’s other fifty reasons.
 
This conversation concerns me because I don’t hear one word about the quality of the hunting experience, only raw numbers. Its like a put/take fishing conversation. I fly fish and I hunt with a mL, but for the experience first and foremost.

I support the concept of primitive weapon hunts. We just need to make them primitive again. The point of the whole thing has been twisted by hunters who compete against each other, and not their quarry.(n)
 
I’ve evolved blue…… I used to want the experience as well……..

Now days it’s only raw numbers for me…….. grow mule deer in numbers…….that’s all I really care about……. hoping that, some how, some way, at some future time, they can be a renewable, sustainable, big game hunting resource.
 
elkassassin said:
If You're Gonna TAKE!

You're Gonna TAKE Equally!

I'm Not Against It!

But You Will Have Changes On Your Rifle & Your Archery Equipment!

Careful What You Wish For!
Click to expand...
Why would they have to take from archery? You still have to get close, still have to use skill with archery. A little better sights and bows does not make them shoot out to 700 yards. Muzzleloaders were meant to shoot close distances, not just like a rifle when the seasons were designed. Thats why they have better dates, and most are during the ruts. Because it is supposed to be more challenging to get in the distance for a kill shot.
 
mossback50cal said:
Why would they have to take from archery? You still have to get close, still have to use skill with archery. A little better sights and bows does not make them shoot out to 700 yards. Muzzleloaders were meant to shoot close distances, not just like a rifle when the seasons were designed. Thats why they have better dates, and most are during the ruts. Because it is supposed to be more challenging to get in the distance for a kill shot.
Click to expand...
Built in rangefinding sights and electronics.
 
heartshot said:
Range finders are the key ingredient to all three seasons. Take that away and it no longer matters how far your rifle, muzz, or bow shoots. Long distance accuracy goes way down in a hurry.
Click to expand...
and wounded game goes way up. im my opinion a range finder (used correctly by a responsible hunter) is one of the most ethical pieces of equipment you can carry
 
2lumpy said:
I’ve evolved blue…… I used to want the experience as well……..

Now days it’s only raw numbers for me…….. grow mule deer in numbers…….that’s all I really care about……. hoping that, some how, some way, at some future time, they can be a renewable, sustainable, big game hunting resource.
Click to expand...
It is sustainable……..but not at the same harvest numbers as back before primitive weapons performed reliably at half a mile.

I hate to oversimplify, but we are killing too many of them. Its as simple as restricting how. As a capitalist I prefer raising prices, but I have no problem enjoying my old fashioned muzzleloader.

Back in the mid ‘70s I went the the NM and CO state ML shoots (raton and leadville, respectively). Those guys were making some long shots with 25 lb bench guns. They weren’t very practical in the field but I saw a boatload of whistle pigs who would disagree.
 
EV-A-F'N-DENTALLY You're Still Packin/Using Your Fred Bear I Take It?

40-50 Yard Shots Use To Be Considered Long Shots with Archery Equipment!

Now We've Got Archers Shooting Out Past a 100 Yards!

I Guess You've Never Heard of That Or You're Mighty Secluded?

While You're All At It,Limit Rifles to 1.5 Power Scopes!

Remember when a Long Shot With a Rifle Was 400 Yards?

Let's Go Back To it!

All Are Gonna Give Some!

It's Not Some Gave All!

CAREFUL WHAT YOU HARP ON & WISH FOR!







mossback50cal said:
Why would they have to take from archery? You still have to get close, still have to use skill with archery. A little better sights and bows does not make them shoot out to 700 yards. Muzzleloaders were meant to shoot close distances, not just like a rifle when the seasons were designed. Thats why they have better dates, and most are during the ruts. Because it is supposed to be more challenging to get in the distance for a kill shot.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
EV-A-F'N-DENTALLY You're Still Packin/Using Your Fred Bear I Take It?

40-50 Yard Shots Use To Be Considered Long Shots with Archery Equipment!

Now We've Got Archers Shooting Out Past a 100 Yards!

I Guess You've Never Heard of That Or You're Mighty Secluded?

While You're All At It,Limit Rifles to 1.5 Power Scopes!

Remember when a Long Shot With a Rifle Was 400 Yards?

Let's Go Back To it!

All Are Gonna Give Some!

It's Not Some Gave All!

CAREFUL WHAT YOU HARP ON & WISH FOR!
Click to expand...
There are so few hunters who should be taking anywhere near that range of shot with archery equipment. I limit my shots to 50, nothing further while hunting, even though the equipment could do more. I can shoot 80 on a target, but would never even think to attempt that on an animal. There are too many variables in it. I'm perfectly fine with going back to 400 being a long shot. It was actual hunting then. Now, it is simply shooting. No skill required to get 1300 yards from an animal. Only skill is shooting, which, with all the equipment, takes all the guess work out of it. Tells you exactly how much to change scope, put crosshairs on and shoot. What is the fun in that???? To me, there is none. Exactly why I archery hunt. The fun is the stalk, getting in close, outsmarting an old animal. Shooting it from two canyons away is not hunting to me.

I don't really care about the scope on muzzleloader argument. I think they should have two hunts. One primitive, which would be earlier, and one later that is any muzzleloader. I used to muzzleloader hunt, and even with scopes, the guns weren't very good after 150-200. Now, they can shoot 7-800 and further. That's not muzzleloader, that's a single shot rifle to me.

People aren't interested in HUNTING anymore, only the kill.
 
Perty Much What I've Been Sayin For Years Now!

1300 Yard Shots As You Mention are Gonna Be Taken away as Well!

You Might Only Be Shooting 50 Yards but most Others Extend that Rang by Double with Their New Archery GADGETRY!

When People Figure Out & Understand We Have 50+ Issues with The Declining Herds maybe,just Maybe Something will Improve!

But That Sh!t Ain't Happening!





mossback50cal said:
There are so few hunters who should be taking anywhere near that range of shot with archery equipment. I limit my shots to 50, nothing further while hunting, even though the equipment could do more. I can shoot 80 on a target, but would never even think to attempt that on an animal. There are too many variables in it. I'm perfectly fine with going back to 400 being a long shot. It was actual hunting then. Now, it is simply shooting. No skill required to get 1300 yards from an animal. Only skill is shooting, which, with all the equipment, takes all the guess work out of it. Tells you exactly how much to change scope, put crosshairs on and shoot. What is the fun in that???? To me, there is none. Exactly why I archery hunt. The fun is the stalk, getting in close, outsmarting an old animal. Shooting it from two canyons away is not hunting to me.

I don't really care about the scope on muzzleloader argument. I think they should have two hunts. One primitive, which would be earlier, and one later that is any muzzleloader. I used to muzzleloader hunt, and even with scopes, the guns weren't very good after 150-200. Now, they can shoot 7-800 and further. That's not muzzleloader, that's a single shot rifle to me.

People aren't interested in HUNTING anymore, only the kill.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
EV-A-F'N-DENTALLY You're Still Packin/Using Your Fred Bear I Take It?

40-50 Yard Shots Use To Be Considered Long Shots with Archery Equipment!

Now We've Got Archers Shooting Out Past a 100 Yards!

I Guess You've Never Heard of That Or You're Mighty Secluded?

While You're All At It,Limit Rifles to 1.5 Power Scopes!

Remember when a Long Shot With a Rifle Was 400 Yards?

Let's Go Back To it!

All Are Gonna Give Some!

It's Not Some Gave All!

CAREFUL WHAT YOU HARP ON & WISH FOR!
Click to expand...
That’s what I was waiting for. The cliché “wull you better be shootin a wooden arrow!!!” garbage

You shooting lead ball?
 
elkassassin said:
Perty Much What I've Been Sayin For Years Now!

1300 Yard Shots As You Mention are Gonna Be Taken away as Well!

You Might Only Be Shooting 50 Yards but most Others Extend that Rang by Double with Their New Archery GADGETRY!

When People Figure Out & Understand We Have 50+ Issues with The Declining Herds maybe,just Maybe Something will Improve!

But That Sh!t Ain't Happening!
Click to expand...
I can shoot 80 with no gadgets. But I do agree there needs to be no “gadgets” on a bow
 
slamdunk said:
I'm against having either a seperate unit or season for "advanced primitive" (for lack of official name).

If you want to use a front loader for 500 yard shots, you use it on the "Any Legal Weapon" hunts already in place.
We have too many back to back hunts as it is.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with that as well.
 
elkassassin said:
Perty Much What I've Been Sayin For Years Now!

1300 Yard Shots As You Mention are Gonna Be Taken away as Well!

You Might Only Be Shooting 50 Yards but most Others Extend that Rang by Double with Their New Archery GADGETRY!

When People Figure Out & Understand We Have 50+ Issues with The Declining Herds maybe,just Maybe Something will Improve!

But That Sh!t Ain't Happening!
Click to expand...
I know they do, and it makes me sick. Seen plenty of deer hit in the leg or hoof, and dumb people doing dumb things. I've been on here since 2005ish and have seen you saying it since bessy days. hahaha There are so many issues causing declining herds, you are correct about that. I don't see them improving, because the work isn't being put in to help them. It takes more than a few people to make a change.
 
I Might Be In Trouble!

I Started Muzz Hunting with A/My HAWKENS!

I Had 20/10 Vision for about 45 Years!

I Filed The Front Sight Down To a Hair!

It's So Fine I Can't Even See it Now!:D

And You Want To Take My MUZZ Scope!:mad::mad::mad::mad:?????
 
Or to see the sights or animals. I have rifle hunted one time in my life. Have never had an interest. Started muzzleloader hunting at nine, and archery after that. I love to shoot rifles, but I don't like rifle hunting.
 
I’ve never used a range finder device. I’ve been able to estimate distance pretty accurately. I’ve never attempted to shoot an animal over 400 yards either, the vast majority of my kills are all within 200 yards. I believe the closer you can get to an animal the better the hunter you are.
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
I’ve never used a range finder device. I’ve been able to estimate distance pretty accurately. I’ve never attempted to shoot an animal over 400 yards either, the vast majority of my kills are all within 200 yards. I believe the closer you can get to an animal the better the hunter you are.
Click to expand...
Meh. Your belief. I’ve killed elk at 7 yards and deer over 900. Am I a good or bad hunter?
 
elkassassin said:
I Might Be In Trouble!

I Started Muzz Hunting with A/My HAWKENS!

I Had 20/10 Vision for about 45 Years!

I Filed The Front Sight Down To a Hair!

It's So Fine I Can't Even See it Now!:D

And You Want To Take My MUZZ Scope!:mad::mad::mad::mad:?????
Click to expand...
I suffer the same problem. I can see either sight well, but not both at the same time.

I feel like I just need to move a little slower and get a little closer. The slow part comes pretty easy these days.

Or maybe a shorter gun:unsure:
 
Hey blue!

There Such a Thing as a Sawed-Off SmokePole We Could Use?:D

Bluehair said:
I suffer the same problem. I can see either sight well, but not both at the same time.

I feel like I just need to move a little slower and get a little closer. The slow part comes pretty easy these days.

Or maybe a shorter gun:unsure:
Click to expand...
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
I’ve never used a range finder device. I’ve been able to estimate distance pretty accurately. I’ve never attempted to shoot an animal over 400 yards either, the vast majority of my kills are all within 200 yards. I believe the closer you can get to an animal the better the hunter you are.
Click to expand...
I agree. Use a range finder for archery because a five yard wrong guess can result in a poor shot. If I rifle hunted, wouldn't really need it. Lot's of practice at guessing ranges.
 
It all starts with one with deal or another after that they move on to the next item they want to take from you. As hunters will all should be standing for one and all.
Go ahead and ban scopes, soon it will be something that will hit the way you hunt and you wouldn't have the rest of the hunters behind you because you all HELPED them take something away from the way you hunt.
no traps, no lead shot, no bear hunting with hounds, trail cams, ATV, etc.
If you keep losing ground it will all be in your state and area's before you know it.
 
No moveable sights on bows. No more than five fixed pins. Could go further and implement no more than three fixed pins. I’d be fine with either one of those implementations. No dialing scopes on rifles. Learn ballistics of your rifles and use m.p.b.r. No more than a 3x9 power scope. One vote for putting the hunt back in hunting.
 
Gator said:
It all starts with one with deal or another after that they move on to the next item they want to take from you. As hunters will all should be standing for one and all.
Go ahead and ban scopes, soon it will be something that will hit the way you hunt and you wouldn't have the rest of the hunters behind you because you all HELPED them take something away from the way you hunt.
no traps, no lead shot, no bear hunting with hounds, trail cams, ATV, etc.
If you keep losing ground it will all be in your state and area's before you know it.
Click to expand...
The reason they are talking about this is the increase in success rates of muzzleloader hunts. It has doubled in a lot of cases. It's either dial in some restrictions on what makes the muzzleloader season a different season than rifle, or cut tags drastically. I'd be fine if they even kept scopes, but limited them to 4x on muzzys. Keep the shots reigned in instead of 500-700 yard capabilities on a weapon that never thought of that distance ten years ago.
 
Switchback00 said:
No moveable sights on bows. No more than five fixed pins. Could go further and implement no more than three fixed pins. I’d be fine with either one of those implementations. No dialing scopes on rifles. Learn ballistics of your rifles and use m.p.b.r. No more than a 3x9 power scope. One vote for putting the hunt back in hunting.
Click to expand...
They can keep adjustable scopes on rifles. Rifles are intended to shoot further distances. I'd say no electronic devices to assist ( nothing to measure wind, atmospheric pressure or any of that stuff). Range finders are fine. But, when you have all kinds of devices that input everything into a main device and tell you to adjust twenty clicks up and twenty clicks left, to me, that is cheating. You're in a shooting competition now, not hunting. If you can do all that, and the animal still has zero clue you are there, that isn't hunting, to me. Adjustable sights really give no advantage with a bow. You've still got to get in close, and adjust that sight without the animal knowing you are there. As long as there aren't built in electronics or magnification, for me, they are fine. If you can hit an 80 yard shot with a bow, without any aides, more power to you. If you can shoot 140 with open sights, and average can only do 80-100, more power to you. Some people are going to be more skilled. BUT, the key component to that is actually having the ability. Not just shooting 100 yards when you've never even attempted it with archery equipment. Or further than your comfortable range with whatever equipment you are hunting with. Sadly, there is no way to monitor that.
 
I can’t believe I have to say this again on here, and to a group of hunters who undoubtedly have a rifle with a scope on it around somewhere. But all rifle scopes are “adjustable” so not really a tree you can bark up there
 
JPickett said:
I can’t believe I have to say this again on here, and to a group of hunters who undoubtedly have a rifle with a scope on it around somewhere. But all rifle scopes are “adjustable” so not really a tree you can bark up there
Click to expand...
we are talking adjustable power wise. Not sight alignment wise.......I can't believe we have to explain that to a "hunter" who has killed seven elk over 700 yards, or whatever it is you were talking about earlier.

And I don't care what magnification the scope on a rifle is. Just get the electronics out of the game. Change it back into hunting instead of "shooting".

Not trying to argue, but people like you are on here just to argue. Having a discussion as to why they are thinking of making the change, and what can be done to counteract it, and you pointing out little things that you don't feel are correct. Everyone else knows what we meant by it.
 
He's talking about the dials you install that have everything marked on them. Which, I don't agree with getting rid of either. But, you know you can install secondary dials with yardage and windage marked on them? Not factory that are moa adjustments that you would have to do calculations with to figure how many "clicks" to turn them and then remember how many to turn back to be at zero again.
 
mossback50cal said:
He's talking about the dials you install that have everything marked on them. Which, I don't agree with getting rid of either. But, you know you can install secondary dials with yardage and windage marked on them? Not factory that are moa adjustments that you would have to do calculations with to figure how many "clicks" to turn them and then remember how many to turn back to be at zero again.
Click to expand...
Yup. Just like you needed to before dials with yardage on them. All scopes have this ability. Always have
 
I know scopes are adjustable and by reading what can easily be observed by scrolling up, that was being discussed. Oh, and it’s real easy to get under your skin. Need to butch up a bit
 
You're not under my skin one bit. You aren't gonna get under my skin online at all. You just seem like you're gonna give yourself a stroke from an online board. Don't want to see that, now do we?
 
Your not real good at picking up on tone are ya?The last thing this site does is work me up. It’s fun to get guys like Bigfoot going though
 
He gets triggered on every single post that doesn’t agree with the way he thinks. All you have to do is read some of his drivel. It speaks volumes about his mental state.
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
He gets triggered on every single post that doesn’t agree with the way he thinks. All you have to do is read some of his drivel. It speaks volumes about his mental state.
Click to expand...
Says the guy that can’t stop commenting on my posts anytime you see one. Pretty sad you let a stranger on the internet get to you
 
elkassassin said:
What GATOR Said!

Careful what You Wish For!
Click to expand...
But here’s the thing, you aren’t losing anything.

The season was established by primitive weapon hunters for primitive weapons. The scopes and other gizmos were never contemplated.

Rights creep is what that scope is, and might end up costing the traditionalists the season.

At least that’s another way to look at it.
 
Actually it really isn’t THEY that are taking anything.
It is US sportsman that need to have this discussion.
WE need to control and regulate OURSELVES.

I agree with elkassassin.
We all need to give some.

We may not be able to solve all of the 50 issues but if we work together we can make some improvements.
 
But blue!

Should We Call a 300 Yard Rifle a Traditional Rifle?

Or Is a Modern Day LONG F'N RANGER that'll Shoot 1300 Yards The Same Weapon?





Bluehair said:
But here’s the thing, you aren’t losing anything.

The season was established by primitive weapon hunters for primitive weapons. The scopes and other gizmos were never contemplated.

Rights creep is what that scope is, and might end up costing the traditionalists the season.

At least that’s another way to look at it.
Click to expand...
 
buckhorn said:
Actually it really isn’t THEY that are taking anything.
It is US sportsman that need to have this discussion.
WE need to control and regulate OURSELVES.

I agree with elkassassin.
We all need to give some.

We may not be able to solve all of the 50 issues but if we work together we can make some improvements.
Click to expand...
This!?
 
Elkassassin, I don’t know, I was just talking about scopes on smokepoles.

I suppose I always looked at it like the ”rifle” season was no holds barred. Cannons, crossbows, howitzers and 500 yard breech loading scoped rifles that burn smokeless powder called muzzleloaders are all cool.

I just remember the arguments for the weapons that would be used during ML season, and they didn’t include all this bullchit we see now days.

It’s as complicated or as simple as we want to make it.
 
buckhorn said:
Actually it really isn’t THEY that are taking anything.
It is US sportsman that need to have this discussion.
WE need to control and regulate OURSELVES.

I agree with elkassassin.
We all need to give some.

We may not be able to solve all of the 50 issues but if we work together we can make some improvements.
Click to expand...

Who's "we"? Is it the like minded?
 
Well!

I remember the arguments for the weapons that would be used during Rifle season, and they didn’t include all this bullchit GADGETRY we see now days?







Bluehair said:
Elkassassin, I don’t know, I was just talking about scopes on smokepoles.

I suppose I always looked at it like the ”rifle” season was no holds barred. Cannons, crossbows, howitzers and 500 yard breech loading scoped rifles that burn smokeless powder called muzzleloaders are all cool.

I just remember the arguments for the weapons that would be used during ML season, and they didn’t include all this bullchit we see now days.

It’s as complicated or as simple as we want to make it.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
elkassassin said:
Well!

I remember the arguments for the weapons that would be used during Rifle season, and they didn’t include all this bullchit GADGETRY we see now days?
Click to expand...
And the FLIR guys are going to cry also, while lecturing me about slippery slopes and saving things they never should have had.

Sorry, but scopes on ml’s is a good place to start because it’s so easy.

And I’M telling YOU personally that you can go out there with open sights and enjoy the hunt. You’re in trouble if the quality of your hunt depends on a scope.

Join us……come over to the dark side of chi-com junk free living.;)
 
Bluehair said:
And the FLIR guys are going to cry also, while lecturing me about slippery slopes and saving things they never should have had.

Sorry, but scopes on ml’s is a good place to start because it’s so easy.

And I’M telling YOU personally that you can go out there with open sights and enjoy the hunt. You’re in trouble if the quality of your hunt depends on a scope.

Join us……come over to the dark side of chi-com junk free living.;)
Click to expand...
You are correct but some of these guys would pee themselves if they couldn’t go back to camp and tell everybody about their 700 yard shot.
 
travishunter3006 said:
If Utah DWR did their job then we’d have plenty of animals to shoot with any weapon during any season. The only reason we restrict this or that is because of the scarcity of animals, the ever failing policies/objectives of the DWR and in the end we [cannibalize] ourselves as hunters.
Click to expand...

slamdunk said:
Horrible post......seriously ?
Click to expand...

People are complaining all the time about UT's management of game, mostly, deer and elk. It's a roller-coaster driven by the "flavor of the month". The outcry of tech and the banning of such is a prime example of this, the very reason the statement was made on restricting/banning this tech is due to the scarcity of animals.

I don't know about the ability to use any weapon in any season and the abundance of animals, too many variables at play. UT could be more proactive in game management though, the overhunting of does and cows is very poor management.

Cannibalizing ourselves as hunters simply means we tear each other up, or "eat" each other up for expressing differing opinions. You clearly illustrated this point as did JPickett with your wit and sound replies...:rolleyes:
 
LMMFAO blue!

Don't Worry!

I Still Have My OEM Smoker!

CHI-COM Free Living?

You Wanna Place a Bet on that One?

You're Buying & Using The Same F'N Trash All of us Are!

With No Other Choice in Sight That Is!

Do Tell Us One Thing?

What You Takin from the other 2 Weapon Types?

And I Don't Wanna Hear Some BS Excuse Sayin that' Taking Muzz Scopes is all You Wanna see for now!

Post Up the Other GADGETRY You're Takin from the other two!









Bluehair said:
And the FLIR guys are going to cry also, while lecturing me about slippery slopes and saving things they never should have had.

Sorry, but scopes on ml’s is a good place to start because it’s so easy.

And I’M telling YOU personally that you can go out there with open sights and enjoy the hunt. You’re in trouble if the quality of your hunt depends on a scope.

Join us……come over to the dark side of chi-com junk free living.;)
Click to expand...
 
I love the “ we hunters have to stand together “ posts too. That’s gotta be a millennial thing right?

What? I hunt so I should be in favor of bad policy because a guy doesn’t want to admit that having a 700 yard ability on a primitive weapon defeats the whole point of the season that weapons given?

Just because someones a hunter doesn’t mean they automatically get or deserve every other hunters support. But I’m sure it’s a feel good thing to say
 
I think we should re-frame the debate in the positive- talk about what’s legal instead of what’s illegal.

If you built it in your garage, it should be legal. Just like Aldo did with his scopes between writing all those books. American ingenuity and all that.??

In the meantime, outlaw anything with an on-off switch or battery.:oops:✌️?
 
roadrunner said:
People are complaining all the time about UT's management of game, mostly, deer and elk. It's a roller-coaster driven by the "flavor of the month". The outcry of tech and the banning of such is a prime example of this, the very reason the statement was made on restricting/banning this tech is due to the scarcity of animals.

I don't know about the ability to use any weapon in any season and the abundance of animals, too many variables at play. UT could be more proactive in game management though, the overhunting of does and cows is very poor management.

Cannibalizing ourselves as hunters simply means we tear each other up, or "eat" each other up for expressing differing opinions. You clearly illustrated this point as did JPickett with your wit and sound replies...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The point of my comment is that for travishunter to complain that the Division isn't doing anything or "enough" is simply being naive to facts.
This state has never put more money and resources into conservation projects and studies as it is doing today.
Instead of being armchair biologists, it's very easy and inviting to get involved and see what's really going on.

It gets really old trying to get people to understand that technology restrictions have absolutely nothing to do with rebuilding our herds, it's about creating opportunity by lowering success rates.

Get involved and learn versus assuming and finger pointing.
 

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