UT Bonus Points System

joesikora

Long Time Member
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Is there anything you guys think UT could do to better their point system?
Would putting a cap on points after a certain amount then only draw from that group until they have all drawn but keep one bonus tag for the rest of the applicants? Or just change the whole system like CO, I’m sure this one wouldn’t work but to see R‘s having 25 +/- points and not getting a tag has to really burn some people. Now for me I feel drawing one of the big tags of the Monroe, San Juan, Henry’s is not going to happen but it’s still fun drawing!

Any Ideas!
 
The only thing that would make it better is to go to complete random,

Cap all points at current level, they still hold those points until they use them and get extra chances to draw with them, but all tags are 100% random.

If we was to do any changes, that is what I would do. Utah"s system is one of the fairest there is, the fact it takes 20+ years to draw some tags does not indicate a failure in the point system. It just shows there Really is no way to make it any better.

I hate Colorado's system, yes it gives preference to those who have been in the game the longest, but at what cost? There is still hunts that take 20+ years for residents to draw.
 
Yep, leave it alone. I'm never lucky to draw random, but me and my family have drawn 2 San Juan elk, mtn goat and a great deer tag when we knew we would draw or had way over a 50% chance of drawing. Nice to know so not to draw to many tags in other states.
 
I honestly don’t think the point system is broken and in a state that it needs fixing. I think it comes up as a discussion point because people are tired of not getting tags and a limited entry hunting opportunity for decades. The solution isn’t fixing the point system, the solution is finding a way or ways to create more opportunities to hunt limited entry IMO.
 
Leave it the way it is. 50/50 is as fair as it comes with point systems. Good for the long play and leaves the suspension and excitement in checking the draw results when you know you don’t have enough points to draw the tag. I have drawn one OIL and four LE tags ( 2 Antelope 2 elk and one mountain goat) in 11 years. 3 bonus point pool tags and 2 random tags. At least I think my muzzleloader Antelope tag this year with 0 points was a random tag. Can’t wait until the draw odds report gets posted. I put in for low demand hunts and I don’t care what weapon I have in my hands, I just like having an opportunity to hunt. It is part of my application strategy for Utah. I am a resident so that helps as well. Have fun.
 
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I wouldn't change anything--Utah's system is good enough. Half tags max, half tags random, pretty fair. Demand for tags far outpaces supply so no system will make everyone happy. The only system I like better is Nevada's but Utah's isn't bad.
 
Personally I love NM‘s draw but probably because I’ve drawn 6 or 7 tags LOL!
I drew 4 years in a row and 2 tags in the 4th year with 1 being the early rifle elk hunt for the Sargents Wildlife Area and the other was muzzy mule deer 2b tag which was great because I hunted the muzzy tag then a couple of days wait then went straight to my elk hunt which was awesome!
 
What I'd change deals with the OIL species, but is highly unlikely to happen, so there's not much sense in bringing it up. But, since you're asking....it would be to get rid of the NR option to apply for ALL of the OIL species. Revert to having the rules for NR to be the same as for residents....in other words, Pick One Species. It's really just playing games with NR's, in allowing NR's to apply for all species. That change, which was made in 2009, took the already horrible odds for drawing any particular one of the OIL species, and made them 4-5 times worse.

Other than that, the Utah system is not bad, and does the best it can in distributing a very small number of licenses for which there is an extremely high amount of demand.
 
There is a little bit to appreciate in all systems. Some offer 1st and 2nd choices, some guarantee 10%, and some are "up to". Some draw NR in the same pool with R. Some are separate
 
The only changes people want made, are those that they believe will benefit THEM. In this draw, no body wants “fair”, they want beneficial. Fair is what we have now. The guys who wait the longest are rewarded, the guys who have just started get a chance at it too.

Go full random and we’ll see threads like we see every February when someone has drawn their 5th consecutive expo tag while someone else hasn’t draw anything in 5 years. At least with points, there is some predictability. Random, and you could go your entire lifetime and NEVER draw a tag, general, LE, OIL…. While your wife’s aunts ex husbands kids mother in law has drawn a great tag 4 out of the last 5 years.
 
I like that Utah includes a percentage of bonus tags for those with max points.
Squaring points like Nevada does would still be fair.
Keeping the bonus tags and squaring points should satisfy everyone.
 
Each applicant can only apply for one tag for any specific species. No more LE and General season. :cry: Any LE tag drawn or any Land Owner tag in an LE unit, uses LE Bonus points. Any CWMU tag (drawn, purchased, gifted, etc...) uses LE Bonus points. Any other tag is considered General Season and uses your preference points.

You really want to push it? You lose your points (Pref or LE) if you miss applying twice. Also, no point purchase, apply for the tag only... Rare allowances for turning a tag in, no point accrued. I know, this is pretty harsh... I wouldn't like it, but I think it would get hundreds or even thousands of people out of the system.

I'd also like to see an INCREASE in tags for most, if not all LE units. No more growing extreme trophy animals for the highest bidder...

Also, I drew a random LE Deer tag this year, so right now, I'm happy with the system. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
First thing first is to get the LE elk hunt out of the rut. Move it to October during the mule deer rifle hunt. Less hunter success means more tags offered.

After that I would do the following changes if I was king for the day.

1- no more waiting periods
2- no more bonus and preference point pools, 1 point system only going forward.
3- no more “general season”, Utah hasn’t had a true general season in 5 years now. It’s almost all draw now if you want to get a tag for deer, and elk is following right behind. Let the group of hunters that wants to hunt every year have their cake, and those that are willing to wait for a better tag now get their cake too. No more double dipping with a bonus and a preference point. This will immensely slow down point creep.
4- leave the 50/50 rule in place
5- mandatory hunter harvest
6- every unit gets flown in the winter, no more scientific tables from other states and flying a unit every 5-7 years. To many things can change during that time to effect herds.
7- ban social media influencers exploiting Utah wildlife.
 
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Is there anything you guys think UT could do to better their point system?
Would putting a cap on points after a certain amount then only draw from that group until they have all drawn but keep one bonus tag for the rest of the applicants? Or just change the whole system like CO, I’m sure this one wouldn’t work but to see R‘s having 25 +/- points and not getting a tag has to really burn some people. Now for me I feel drawing one of the big tags of the Monroe, San Juan, Henry’s is not going to happen but it’s still fun drawing!

Any Ideas!
Cut off the Auctions and Sportsman shows for one year and charge EVERYONE that gets a permit an extra fee ( not huge ) and all the people that have max points will draw . At least that would give people a chance to climb the ladder of points. The DWR owes it to the people who have applied for 15 , 20, 25 years. It is ridiculous.
 
First thing first is to get the LE elk hunt out of the rut. Move it to October during the mule deer rifle hunt. Less hunter success means more tags offered.

After that I would do the following changes if I was king for the day.

1- no more waiting periods
2- no more bonus and preference point pools, 1 point system only going forward.
3- no more “general season”, Utah hasn’t had a true general season in 5 years now. It’s almost all draw now if you want to get a tag for deer, and elk is following right behind. Let the group of hunters that wants to hunt every year have their cake, and those that are willing to wait for a better tag now get their cake too. No more double dipping with a bonus and a preference point. This will immensely slow down point creep.
4- leave the 50/50 rule in place
5- mandatory hunter harvest
6- every unit gets flown in the winter, no more scientific tables from other states and flying a unit every 5-7 years. To many things can change during that time to effect herds.
7- ban social media influencers exploiting Utah wildlife.

Whew! Good thing you didn't say Nov or Dec like I did. That way you won't be labeled as a moron.
 
At least that would give people a chance to climb the ladder of points. The DWR owes it to the people who have applied for 15 , 20, 25 years. It is ridiculous.

The DWR doesn't owe them anything. Nobody made them put in for tags that took that long to draw.

Just cause you been putting in for 20 years doesn't entitle you to anything.

Is what's ridiculous is people thinking they are owed something because they played the game for longer. BS those people have had many many opportunities to hunt if they had chosen to do so. You only want that coveted san juan tag well your gonna have to wait your turn. But you ain't owed sh!t.
 
The DWR doesn't owe them anything. Nobody made them put in for tags that took that long to draw.

Just cause you been putting in for 20 years doesn't entitle you to anything.

Is what's ridiculous is people thinking they are owed something because they played the game for longer. BS those people have had many many opportunities to hunt if they had chosen to do so. You only want that coveted san juan tag well your gonna have to wait your turn. But you ain't owed sh!t.
The sh!t is what they do with tags making money for organizations attending the Sportsmans shows. Could be managed better and it is wrong. I dont care about San Juan and it is my opinion anyway and you have yours.
 
The sh!t is what they do with tags making money for organizations attending the Sportsmans shows. Could be managed better and it is wrong. I dont care about San Juan and it is my opinion anyway and you have yours.
How much money did they make? You gonna make claims, tell us all how much money was made and who pocketed it?

90% of the money raised from those tags goes back to wildlife in one form or another.

That said they do go overboard and should rein the program back a bit. But that is a different discussion all together.

But.... your still not entitled to a tag just because you got 20 points.
 
Cut off the Auctions and Sportsman shows for one year and charge EVERYONE that gets a permit an extra fee ( not huge ) and all the people that have max points will draw . At least that would give people a chance to climb the ladder of points. The DWR owes it to the people who have applied for 15 , 20, 25 years. It is ridiculous.
So much false information here and its hard to argue with stat's but lets break it down Barney style.

I'm going to reference the Book Cliffs, as it's one of the largest tag allotments for LE deer. So it should produce the largest increase in draw odds based on your thinking.

These stat's are from 2020.

Archery 934 applicants for 67 tags, 34 going to max points
Muzzy 599 applicants for 67 tags, 34 going to max points
N. Rifle 2348 applicants for 144 tags, 72 going to max points
S. Rifle 856 applicants for 33 tags, 17 to going to max points

Total applicants for all seasons is 4737 for 311 tags=15.23% draw odds.

Conservations tag numbers

MDF: 2 Hunters choice
NWTF: 1 Archery
Safari Club: 1 Legal weapon
SFW:
1 legal weapon
1 archery
2 muzzy

Total: 8 Book cliff tags to conservation groups

Expo tag numbers from 2020 I can't find, but its safe to say they cant be more then this years numbers.
North Books Any weapon 7 tags
South Books Any weapon 3
Archery 3
Muzzy 3
Total: 16 tags

If we were to take out 8 conservation tags and 16 expo tags that gives us 24 tags back into the pool. With the 50/50 split that gives each group a chance at 12 more tags. Now because we have to give nonresidents a portion lets take their 10% out, so now 2 tags go back to the nonresident pool. Now we are left with 22 tags going back into the resident pool, 11 going to max point holders and 11 to the random pool.

For simple math we now have 4737 total book cliff applicants for 33 tags=14.22%. A total draw odds increase of 1%

What that means if no one else new puts in, it will take 15+ years to draw that tag, and if we add in those extra tags taken from the expo and conservation groups it will now take 14+ years to draw that tag.

I don't have the time to figure out all the max points applicants as that number changes yearly based on people moving around what unit they put in for, but this will give you something to chew on.

While it's sometimes is a tough pill to swallow, the $$$ raised from the auctions has increased my opportunities to hunt big game since I've started hunting 30 years ago. Back then we were able to hunt all 3 seasons for mule deer, but the elk herd was almost non existent, antelope areas were fewer, and OIL was something that seemed like a pipe dream.

Now look at how many choices we have here in Utah to hunt.

Utah has grown, and with that are changes to predator control, winter and summer range habitat changes, increased roads, and most importantly hunter control.

Now I will say the one change I wish would happen is all the funds raised from the sell of these tags needs to go back to the division through projects. The conservations groups shouldn't be able to pocket a percentage of the tag fees.

Again, the above numbers quoted is from the book cliffs, if you were to do this with all the other units the odds get even worse. So putting the conservation and expo tags back into the pool of tags isn’t going to make sure max point holders draw out in a year. Your welcome to do your own research as well, all the info I pulled was from www.wildlife.utah.gov
 
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Combine deer points already, maybe a 3:1 ratio from general to limited. Put all units to draw for both elk and deer with more liberal tag numbers on the traditional general units. Pull all rifle/muzz elk out of September. Pull the scopes from muzz completely, make the hunter choose if they want opportunity or quality by how they apply. Give one tag per unit to con groups to auction and do P.I.W. Hunts similar to Nevada to compensate the difference in the dwr budgeting.
 
The DWR doesn't owe them anything. Nobody made them put in for tags that took that long to draw.

Just cause you been putting in for 20 years doesn't entitle you to anything.

Is what's ridiculous is people thinking they are owed something because they played the game for longer. BS those people have had many many opportunities to hunt if they had chosen to do so. You only want that coveted san juan tag well your gonna have to wait your turn. But you ain't owed sh!t.
Damn Jake kinda pissed off today ain’t ya!? I don’t think he was saying his was owed anything!
I think Utah should as I said above is take the top guys say if there’s 2 guys with the highest number of points down to say 5 points less and put those guys in a draw just between them then do the regular draw etc, I think that would be a good thing. You have to think that many people might not draw a premium tag while they are healthy enough to even hunt the LE Tag if drawn!
Whats so terrible about that?
 
Damn Jake kinda pissed off today ain’t ya!? I don’t think he was saying his was owed anything!
I think Utah should as I said above is take the top guys say if there’s 2 guys with the highest number of points down to say 5 points less and put those guys in a draw just between them then do the regular draw etc, I think that would be a good thing. You have to think that many people might not draw a premium tag while they are healthy enough to even hunt the LE Tag if drawn!
Whats so terrible about that?
Joe he literally said in his post that the DWR owed it to people who have been putting in for 15, 20, 25 years. Lol

I'm just sick of people thinking they are owed anything just because they have been in the game longer. If you have 25 points you could have drawn some damn good hunts the past 10 years. May not have been the premium unit you wanted but still a damn good hunt. If you chose to wait that's on you.
Simple fact is not everyone is going to draw the tags they want but at least you had a shot every single year you applied.
 
I think Utah has the best system available. It is a mix of complete random and the preference points system. Best of both worlds.

Colorado’s preference point system is the worst, IMO. Complete random draw is the next worst system.

Nothing about Utah’s draw system needs to be improved. The draw system is fine. Fix the supply issue and management plans for more hunting opportunities before screwing with the system. The system is fine.
 
Cut off the Auctions and Sportsman shows for one year and charge EVERYONE that gets a permit an extra fee ( not huge ) and all the people that have max points will draw . At least that would give people a chance to climb the ladder of points. The DWR owes it to the people who have applied for 15 , 20, 25 years. It is ridiculous.
The number of conservation tags wouldn't even take out the top point group it would do nothing for point creep. I think a lot of people think there is more conservation tags then there are because a lot of the tags auctioned of are land owner tags not conservation tags.
 
I think Utah has the best system available. It is a mix of complete random and the preference points system. Best of both worlds.

Colorado’s preference point system is the worst, IMO. Complete random draw is the next worst system.

Nothing about Utah’s draw system needs to be improved. The draw system is fine. Fix the supply issue and management plans for more hunting opportunities before screwing with the system. The system is fine.
Couldn't agree more. Get the freakin hunts out of the rut. Give the elk a 10 day break from Sep. 20- Sep. 30 No hunts at all. Shorten other hunts we make these hunts so long that there is a 85-95% success shorten the hunts if you lower success to around 50-60% you can give out more tags for more opportunity to draw a hunt. Just cause someone draws a hunt does mean they are guaranteed to kill something.
 
Id like to force NRs to have choose one species that they can draw a tag in that year. Allow us to still buy points for the other species so Utah still gets that easy money but we wont be eligible other species that year.
 
Id like to force NRs to have choose one species that they can draw a tag in that year. Allow us to still buy points for the other species so Utah still gets that easy money but we wont be eligible other species that year.

100% - this needs to be fixed. I am an NR and see the obvious problem with this.

There has been at least one prosecuted case of a UT resident pulling the trick where he argued he was NOT a Utah resident, right? So that he could get points for all species and then "move back" to Utah later and have a leg-up on other RES?

That's bass-ackwards.

Utah will be the first state to tighten up their discrimination rules if WY really goes 95-5-5 on the quality portion of DEP.
 
Joe he literally said in his post that the DWR owed it to people who have been putting in for 15, 20, 25 years. Lol

I'm just sick of people thinking they are owed anything just because they have been in the game longer. If you have 25 points you could have drawn some damn good hunts the past 10 years. May not have been the premium unit you wanted but still a damn good hunt. If you chose to wait that's on you.
Simple fact is not everyone is going to draw the tags they want but at least you had a shot every single year you applied.
Thanks buddy! I‘m sticking to my LE Monroe ElK I love abuse! LOL! The good thing I do like a little is I seen someone drew a Desert Big Horn tag with 0 points so that is cool! You know I think there’s a sweet spot say 0-8 points where a few people draw and then there’s a lull after that for several years! I’m in the lull stage LOL! Like I’ve said before I can’t complain I’ve been extremely lucky in NM! You know I’m thinking about using “The Draw“ I seen they will not only put you in the state draws but I think they will put you in raffles as well with for me would be great! I talked to the owner and he gave me all the time to answer all my questions and gave me some great advice. again I really liked putting me into all the raffles because he was telling me about a lot more raffles that I had no idea about. I for the life of me can’t remember his name but I’ll look it up. Oh another thing I really liked he‘s a Vet that served over in that BS Afgan which if I have a choice to support a Vet that served our country I’ll go with them!

what say you!?

thanks again Jake for explaining that to me!

your friend

Joe
 
I didn’t see the guys name I talked too but here’s the number
575-222-1234
Oh I just seen kids apply for free!?
You can’t beat that if you have kids just coming up
That makes me what too use them even more

What say you all!
 
Couldn't agree more. Get the freakin hunts out of the rut. Give the elk a 10 day break from Sep. 20- Sep. 30 No hunts at all. Shorten other hunts we make these hunts so long that there is a 85-95% success shorten the hunts if you lower success to around 50-60% you can give out more tags for more opportunity to draw a hunt. Just cause someone draws a hunt does mean they are guaranteed to kill something.
Seems the more tags issued the more elk killed.
 
Id like to force NRs to have choose one species that they can draw a tag in that year. Allow us to still buy points for the other species so Utah still gets that easy money but we wont be eligible other species that year.

Per pages 18 and 19 of the Big Game Application Guide Book (thumbnail page 10), it's already like that - can only draw one tag, can't draw a tag for all species.

Do you mean choose one species to apply for, like the residents do?
 
Per pages 18 and 19 of the Big Game Application Guide Book (thumbnail page 10), it's already like that - can only draw one tag, can't draw a tag for all species.

Do you mean choose one species to apply for, like the residents do?
That is what I meant. If I chose elk that year, irregardless of the draw outcome, I cannot be in the draws for the other species.

With so many NR hunt choices only having 1 random tag, the odds are being diluted by so many NR having their name in the hat because we can apply for all species.
 
How much money did they make? You gonna make claims, tell us all how much money was made and who pocketed it?

90% of the money raised from those tags goes back to wildlife in one form or another.

That said they do go overboard and should rein the program back a bit. But that is a different discussion all together.

But.... your still not entitled to a tag just because you got 20 points.
The number of conservation tags wouldn't even take out the top point group it would do nothing for point creep. I think a lot of people think there is more conservation tags then there are because a lot of the tags auctioned of are land owner tags not conservation tags.
The question was what might help. Just an idea is all . I never said I was right.
JakeH got triggered but do I care .? Not, as I am entitled.
 
The number of conservation tags wouldn't even take out the top point group it would do nothing for point creep. I think a lot of people think there is more conservation tags then there are because a lot of the tags auctioned of are land owner tags not conservation tags.


This actually isn’t true. You’re correct that it would not eliminate point creep. The ONLY thing to eliminate point creep is to have more tags than applicants, and that will never happen in the west again. Ever.

We give away approximately 200 LE elk tags to the conservation/expo programs. I don’t recall the deer number, but I think it was about 150-ish. Run that out over a 5 year wait period.

That’s nearly 1,000 people out of the elk pool every year, and more than 700 people out of the deer pool every year. That doesn’t fix the problem, but it sure helps! Suggesting otherwise is incorrect.
 
I don’t know you are right or I am wrong. Been reading about it for years here with opinions of many . Don't get to excited for yourself.
Yes you've read and now contributed to the lie that the wildlife organizations and the people that run them are profiting from conservation tags. There has never been any proof to that claim yet the aligations keep being made.

I will say I think they have went a bit overboard with the number they give out and do feel they should cut the number down a bit.

But I still feel there is alot of helpful projects and work that has been funded with money raised from these tags. I personally could list off over 100 projects that I have seen that were at least partially funded with conservation tag dollars, and that is just in the northeast part of the state.
 
If you are a resident and have 15+ points (realistically 10, but we will say 15 for the haters) for any LE species and haven’t drawn a tag yet, that all on YOU. There are TONS of opportunities in utah to pull a great tag with those points and go hunt and have a great experience. If you want to wait for the best tag and unit, that’s your decision. But after 15 years, you have zero reason to be mad, upset or angry that you haven’t had the opportunity to go on a great LE hunt.
 
If you are a resident and have 15+ points (realistically 10, but we will say 15 for the haters) for any LE species and haven’t drawn a tag yet, that all on YOU. There are TONS of opportunities in utah to pull a great tag with those points and go hunt and have a great experience. If you want to wait for the best tag and unit, that’s your decision. But after 15 years, you have zero reason to be mad, upset or angry that you haven’t had the opportunity to go on a great LE hunt.
Maybe 15 but not 10. I have 11 now and I even tried Muzzleloader which I don't even own one anymore and I didn't draw. Not a Premium LE but just an LE.
 
This actually isn’t true. You’re correct that it would not eliminate point creep. The ONLY thing to eliminate point creep is to have more tags than applicants, and that will never happen in the west again. Ever.

We give away approximately 200 LE elk tags to the conservation/expo programs. I don’t recall the deer number, but I think it was about 150-ish. Run that out over a 5 year wait period.

That’s nearly 1,000 people out of the elk pool every year, and more than 700 people out of the deer pool every year. That doesn’t fix the problem, but it sure helps! Suggesting otherwise is incorrect.
It would help take give that many people tags. But last year alone there were 4700 new applicants that applied for LE Deer. I don’t think we should take away from the expo or conservation tags people buy. But to your point it would help would be if you buy or draw one of these tags that it burns your points. As well as puts you on the waiting period that anyone that draws has to be on. Just cause someone buys a tag doesn’t mean they should by pass the waiting period everyone else has to be one when they draw a tag.
 
Not sure. If you issue one tag, that means one elk could be killed. If you issue two tags that means two elk could be killed. Seems like there is much more to this than just a shorter season and more tags.
 
It would help take give that many people tags. But last year alone there were 4700 new applicants that applied for LE Deer. I don’t think we should take away from the expo or conservation tags people buy. But to your point it would help would be if you buy or draw one of these tags that it burns your points. As well as puts you on the waiting period that anyone that draws has to be on. Just cause someone buys a tag doesn’t mean they should by pass the waiting period everyone else has to be one when they draw a tag.


Applying points and a waiting period on expo/conservation tags would also help some. But let’s not confuse where these tags were “taken” from. Returning them to the public draw would not be “taking” them from anyone. They were already taken from the public and given as government welfare to “conservation” organizations. (I use that term lightly…)
 
Lmao, at least you can admit when you are wrong.
As well as you JakeH your the man! We all want the same thing Hunts for All! So the more animals we can help thrive the more we can hunt! So why don’t everyone join together and work with the DWR and Local Organizations to help!? I think it would be fun! I live to far away or I’d be there even if I couldn’t do a lot of the stuff I could cook deer and elk brats! Hummmm!
I told Mrs Sikora that I want the population of the Polar bear to be enormous she asked why I said so I can hunt them! I got a funny look! Lol!
Thanks buddy! I‘m sticking to my LE Monroe ElK I love abuse! LOL! The good thing I do like a little is I seen someone drew a Desert Big Horn tag with 0 points so that is cool! You know I think there’s a sweet spot say 0-8 points where a few people draw and then there’s a lull after that for several years! I’m in the lull stage LOL! Like I’ve said before I can’t complain I’ve been extremely lucky in NM! You know I’m thinking about using “The Draw“ I seen they will not only put you in the state draws but I think they will put you in raffles as well with for me would be great! I talked to the owner and he gave me all the time to answer all my questions and gave me some great advice. again I really liked putting me into all the raffles because he was telling me about a lot more raffles that I had no idea about. I for the life of me can’t remember his name but I’ll look it up. Oh another thing I really liked he‘s a Vet that served over in that BS Afgan which if I have a choice to support a Vet that served our country I’ll go with them!

what say you!?

thanks again Jake for explaining that to me!

your friend

Joe
I’m so glad I wrote this post the other day because I totally forgot about the deadline in AZ for deer etc! and I almost missed it which I’ve done in the past
 
I would like to see the process for drawing tags. Anyone who has designed computer programs and used coding, knows there's no way to write a program that will draw numbers 100% random. I know a couple people who've drawn every tag they applied for early. I know a few people who haven't drawn until they were the last guy on the list. I don't trust the drawing process, but I do support the point system.
 
Pick up a bow at 63 yo. You are hilarious.
You could have easily picked up a bow 20 years ago…. Choices. You made yours.

There is no age limit on archery. You must not consider yourself much of a hunter if you think you can’t get in close enough for a shot with a bow. It isn’t the weapon. It’s the guy using it.
 
I would like to see the process for drawing tags. Anyone who has designed computer programs and used coding, knows there's no way to write a program that will draw numbers 100% random. I know a couple people who've drawn every tag they applied for early. I know a few people who haven't drawn until they were the last guy on the list. I don't trust the drawing process, but I do support the point system.

Interesting fact I’ve personally experienced. When I got on right at 8 am the first day of the application period, those years I drew “random” tags. I’ve seen it happen with family members too.
 
You could have easily picked up a bow 20 years ago…. Choices. You made yours.

There is no age limit on archery. You must not consider yourself much of a hunter if you think you can’t get in close enough for a shot with a bow. It isn’t the weapon. It’s the guy using it.
It is the price of stuff but I'm sure you all have enough money it is no big deal. Anyway , it us nunya what I've done for hunting as it my choice just like it is my choice to voice my opinion .
 
It is the price of stuff but I'm sure you all have enough money it is no big deal. Anyway , it us nunya what I've done for hunting as it my choice just like it is my choice to voice my opinion .
You can pick up a used bow and be hunt ready for less than $350. If you can’t swing that, you can’t swing the tag fee. Or fuel.

You’re a victim of your own choices. And mentality apparently. Guys are bowhunting well into their late 70s. And drawing tags their entire life. Sad to see people waste their opportunities. But not surprising
 
You can pick up a used bow and be hunt ready for less than $350. If you can’t swing that, you can’t swing the tag fee. Or fuel.

You’re a victim of your own choices. And mentality apparently. Guys are bowhunting well into their late 70s. And drawing tags their entire life. Sad to see people waste their opportunities. But not surprising
Ssshhh we don't need all the old guys figuring out they can be bow hunters too. Lol
 
Sucks how many non resident point holders there are, but at least everyone gets a chance. Make it so if you don't apply, you lose your points would be first thing I would do for 5 years then assess the point pool.

Apply, buy a point, it's all one in the same....
 
I think all point systems are "fair" as long as they are administered as per policy. Out of all, Nevada is my favorite but Utah's system works just fine as well. The problem is too many hunters. We need to encourage as many people as possible to do things like golf, wakeboarding, etc. ------SS
 
I personally like the UT system. It's been good to me, but I've also been applying there forever. Since 2014 I've drawn LE elk, pronghorn, and Pauns muzzy deer this year.
 
What is being overlooked by all of us high point holders is that we are having a very serious negative impact on the future generation of hunters. With the lack of quality (quality - not general bull or archery deer) hunts available to the younger generation, we are losing hunters from a simple lack of interest/excitement. I listened to Johnny Morris discuss this concern in key vendor forum citing a lot of industry data…it’s real. There are a lot of other options for entertainment available for the youth now days, waiting 3 years to draw a mediocre general deer tag and 20+ years to have a decent hunt isn’t very exciting. We need to get more quality tags in the hands of younger people.
Maybe move to a weighted lottery? However many points you have, you get that many entries…but it is a true lottery? I don’t know the best solution, but the focus should be on the next generation or there won’t be enough hunters to support it.
 
What is being overlooked by all of us high point holders is that we are having a very serious negative impact on the future generation of hunters. With the lack of quality (quality - not general bull or archery deer) hunts available to the younger generation, we are losing hunters from a simple lack of interest/excitement. I listened to Johnny Morris discuss this concern in key vendor forum citing a lot of industry data…it’s real. There are a lot of other options for entertainment available for the youth now days, waiting 3 years to draw a mediocre general deer tag and 20+ years to have a decent hunt isn’t very exciting. We need to get more quality tags in the hands of younger people.
Maybe move to a weighted lottery? However many points you have, you get that many entries…but it is a true lottery? I don’t know the best solution, but the focus should be on the next generation or there won’t be enough hunters to support it.
May be a nice idea however there is shrinking winter range, more people, more loss due to disease such as blue tongue. There will NEVER be anything like it should be again. If people would admit it then it makes sense why we keep trying to come up with ideas that just won't fix hunting.
Public land will keep shrinking to make room for more homes.
 
May be a nice idea however there is shrinking winter range, more people, more loss due to disease such as blue tongue. There will NEVER be anything like it should be again. If people would admit it then it makes sense why we keep trying to come up with ideas that just won't fix hunting.
Public land will keep shrinking to make room for more homes.
I get what you are saying and agree, but what does that have to do with the draw?
 
I get what you are saying and agree, but what does that have to do with the draw?
The draw depends on deer numbers. As they will plummet there will be less tags. I'm sure you must know tag numbers for draw should be dependent on deer numbers even though Utah sells too many in places.
 
The draw depends on deer numbers. As they will plummet there will be less tags. I'm sure you must know tag numbers for draw should be dependent on deer numbers even though Utah sells too many in places.
Again, I agree and understand. Less Animals = Less tags. What does that have to do with the permit draw methodology?
 
I sure miss the excitement of the random draws before we went to this point system.

One thing I would currently lobby for is no turning a tag in except for medical emergencies or military.

You draw, you hunt!
I’d agree Slam but if it wasn’t for that policy I wouldn’t have drawn the AZ 22N early rifle elk tag! Here’s one thing your forgetting someone is still losing their points! I don’t know how many points the guy had that turned in the tag but I’d say he had quite a few and I’m sure in most cases the guy getting that tad had quite a few as well so somebody’s still losing a lot of points! Now I on the other hand only lost 9 points LOL! but what are the odds of getting that tag with only 9 points and it was my second choice. Still I lost all my 9 points! LOL!
 
"The ONLY thing to eliminate point creep is to have more tags than applicants"

Actually, it means having more tags than NEW applicants. But, we've been giving less tags than new applicants for so long, it would take 20-40 years to get through all applicants even if no new applicants ever applied during that time... yikes.!!
 
Actually, it means having more tags than NEW applicants. But, we've been giving less tags than new applicants for so long, it would take 20-40 years to get through all applicants even if no new applicants ever applied during that time... yikes.!!
Yet everywhere we turn, we see people campaigning to get more new hunters.

Ironically, some of the people who are such advocates for more hunters, are also the first to get mad when they don’t draw a tag. And when they do get a tag, they biiitch about all the crowding there is and guys everywhere.

WE DONT NEED ANYMORE HUNTERS. PERIOD.
 

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