Rob Shaul Summary of Task Force Happening... BUZZ??

elks96

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This was an email that I received... Long but it appears to be a decent representation of the happenings. Buzz can you confirm his account of the the days? Also I fully realize that he has his own slant on everything. He is totally fine with sacrificing NR to the outfitters as long as we get the 90/10. Totally disagree with that stance...

Buzz, what can you add or retract from this summary?

"Sportsman" representative and former Game & Fish Commissioner, Pat Crank, made a motion to keep the current tag allocation and therefore kill any chance of a 90/10 recommendation coming out of the WWTF. His motion was quickly seconded by Outfitter Lee Livingston.

Crank's motion came immediately after sportsmens' rep, Dr. Joe Shaffer, who favors 90/10, gave a subcommittee report on a the impact of 90/10 on tags (4,791 more Type 1 deer, antelope and elk tags for resident hunters), and his subcommittee's work on the issues surrounding a possible compromise with outfitters.

Earlier in the day, Wyoming Outfitter and Guides Association President, Sy Gilliland, had submitted a proposal to create a 40% Outfitter Draw for all nonresident deer, elk, and antelope limited quota tags, and all elk nonresident general tags. Under Gilliland's proposal, nonresident hunters who had committed to used an outfitter would be placed in a special draw and compete for 40% of the available nonresident tags. Gilliland argued that this system would create stability and predictability for Wyoming's outfitting industry.

After making his motion, Crank acknowledged that the resident hunter push for 90/10 is what "drove formation of the WWTF," and continued that he supported the outfitter wish list of an outfitter draw, draw, transferable doe/fawn & cow/calf landowner tags, and eliminating the current 7,250 cap on nonresident elk tags, but concluded that "90/10 is a bad idea."

Rep. Albert Sommers and Sen. Larry Hicks both noted that if the WWTF killed any chance of 90/10, resident hunters would likely oppose any other WWTF recommendations when they made it to the legislature, and each side needed to make concessions and come to the representatives with a "package proposal" all could support. Said Sommers, "If it's not packaged in a way everybody can support, it ain't happening."

Even Gilliland, not a fan of 90/10, supported a continued effort to find a compromise proposal.

At vote time, Crank's motion failed 11-6. Crank and Livingston were joined by Adam Teten and Josh Coursey, and outfitter/ranchers Jamie Flitner and Duaine Hagnn in voting to kill 90/10.

On Tuesday Morning, Dr. Shaffer presented the outline of a "Grand Compromise" his subcommittee would work on and brink back to the full WWTF at the June 8-9 meeting:
  • Eliminate the current 7,250 cap on nonresident elk tags and go to regional management of elk for nonresident hunters similar to how deer are managed now.
  • 50% Special Outfitter Draw - so 50% of all nonresident limited quota deer, elk and antelope tags, and 50% of elk nonresident general tags would only be available to nonresident hunters who had committed to use an outfitter
  • 90/10 tag allocation for all deer, elk and antelope units with a 30% or less resident hunter draw odds
  • 3-year wait period for resident hunters who draw a high demand limited quota tag - with "high demand" being 30% or less draw odds. Hunters would be able to purchase general tags during the wait period and/or apply for limited quota tags in hunt areas that were not "high demand" in terms of draw odds (31% or greater odds).
  • 24-hour resident hunter head start for leftover tags
  • Increase nonresident tag prices across the board to offset any budget shortfalls caused by the above changes
Including Dr. Shaffer, WWTF members of the subcommittee working on this "Grand Compromise" are Gilliland, Teten, Sen. Hicks, Coursey and Tony Lehner. Their task is to hammer out the details and come back to the full WWTF with a firm proposal at the June meeting.

However .... shortly after, Crank made another motion that the WWTF recommend to eliminate the 7,250 nonresident elk tag cap, and go to nonresident regional elk tag management like deer. Prior, G&F Licensing Chief Jennifer Doering had estimated that eliminating the 7,250 cap would result in an increase of approximately 1,000 nonresident general elk tags. This change would not require legislative approval and could be made by the G&F Commission.

Typically, nonresident hunters with general elk tags congregate in the hunt areas with easy national forest access like the Grays River and Snowy Range ... and crowd these areas already busy with resident hunters. Dr. Shaffer disappointingly voted in favor of the motion, but wanted language added that the G&F Commission would consider impacts to resident hunters with general season tags in making their regional general elk tag quotas.

After quick discussion, the full WWTF approved Crank's motion 13-3, with Sen. Hicks, Rep. Sommers and Teten casing the "no" votes. Rep. Sommers explained his vote by stating that he felt eliminating the 7,250 cap should be part of an overall grand compromise.

It was unclear to me if this recommendation would go to the public for further comment or simply be forwarded to the G&F Commission.


Other Meeting Stuff ....
  • Several outfitters in attended spoke in favor of Gilliland's outfitter draw proposal during public comment. When asked by Sen. Hicks if they would support 90/10 in exchange for the outfitter draw all answered "no"
  • Jennifer Doering reported that 29,345 nonresident hunters applied for elk tags in 2022, which was up 8.39% from 2021 and up a staggering 34% since 2019.
  • Doering also reported that eliminating the existing 7,250 cap on nonresident elk tags would result in approximately 1,000 additional nonresident general season elk tags.
  • The WWTF unanimously voted to recommend to the G&F Commission that hunters only be allowed one Type 1 or 2 Antelope Tag. This proposal will go out for public comment and receive a final vote at the July meeting.
  • G&F Wildlife Chief Rick King gave a quick presentation on Shed Hunting at the request of Rep. Sommers, who has concerns about the swarms of nonresident shed hunters who descend on western Wyoming each year for the May 1 opening. King reported that the current restriction of Shed Hunting until 6am on May 1 has helped the G&F with enforcement. G&F Director Brian Nesvik said it's unclear if the G&F has the legal authority to require permits or licenses for shed hunting and that current law, as he understands it, states that once the shed drops off the animal and hits the ground, it's owned by the landowner. The decision was made to ask the Wyoming Attorney General for an opinion on whether or not the G&F had the authority to require permits or licenses for shed hunting, and if so, if nonresidents could be charged more than residents.
  • Crank gave an update on his subcommittee's work to reform landowner tags. The changes are still being worked on but the current draft would address some of the current abuse by requiring a 25% or greater ownership to attain a landowner tag, and disqualify any property which was purchased after being marketed as having landowner tags from the program. Crank intends to make further changes to the draft and bring it to the June meeting for formal WWTF consideration.
  • Sy Gilliland reported that Wyoming is down 18,000 antelope tags 2018 - further reinforcing that Wyoming's most abundant big game animal is in trouble.
 
Why do the outfitters need the NR wilderness rule if they get 40-50% of the NR tags in an outfitted draw?

Beautiful that they can offset revenue losses with discriminatory pricing on NR shed hunting.

Good to see that residents might get some flavor of 90/10 on DEP - at least for premium tags. Pay attention Colorado.
 
Old sign.

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New sign

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Outfitter welfare bull@!%*. I remember not long ago a bunch of NR on here were saying how WYOGA was their only hope. How's that working out for ya.....

I mean in all seriousness, what other choice did NR have when it came to lobbying against 90/10 for the Big 5. I mean you can still find old articles of Sy talking about how he was fighting for the NR and was going to stop it. I will say it, a lot of the Wyoming residents on here warned us and you guys were 100% right.

However, I dont understand why people get so worked up over it now, the whole West is changing and that's the way it is, you adapt and keep hunting. Makes you appreciate the opportunity a little more.
 
I mean in all seriousness, what other choice did NR have when it came to lobbying against 90/10 for the Big 5. I mean you can still find old articles of Sy talking about how he was fighting for the NR and was going to stop it. I will say it, a lot of the Wyoming residents on here warned us and you guys were 100% right.

However, I dont understand why people get so worked up over it now, the whole West is changing and that's the way it is, you adapt and keep hunting. Makes you appreciate the opportunity a little more.

Sly....I mean Sy has always been full of s%@* some are just now starting to see it. Sly is Wyomings Don Peay.....
 
I am a Wyo resident but don’t like any outfitter welfare. Wyoga is organized. There isn’t a entity called “non-residents of America”. There really isn’t a strong collaborated voice to support the non-res. I’m rooting for you non-residents to storm the next task force mtg (even if it’s on-line or through their comment process) and speak up against this outfitter push before the diy hunter loses. I would suggest calling those task force members that are on the fence (not the outfitters on the board, your call would fall on deaf ears).

I feel ultimately, there will be a change in res Vs. Non res tag allocation that will benefit the resident whether it’s this next year or in 5 years, and I support that, but non residents deserve to hunt without an outfitter and hunt the wilderness! It’s your fight. Step it up! My .02
 
Divide and conquer!!! Like everything else, we will all pay the consequences in the end. Hate to say it, but it seems DIY hunting as we know it will be a thing of the past.

Question for you Wyoming guys. What is the breakdown of people moving into your state? Mainly hunters, general outdoor recreation such as hiking and ATV, liberal anti hunting?
 
funny how there were so many arguments about changing to 90/10 wouldn't be a loss of revenue. Apparently raising the prices on NR to cover the deficit that never existed in interesting. Also, according to the experts there was no way in hell that outfitters would get tags. Hmmm, things have changed. Politics are interesting, no doubt about it. It almost seems folks were pissing in each other's cheerios just to piss on each other instead of considering what really could happen with a task force. I also expect that someone in the legislature will have a fix proposed to corner crossing to prohibit it in the future. I expect that will be a big battle that may affect where all this goes when it gets to the legislature. It will be an interesting session in the Wyoming Legislature next year.

Rich
 
funny how there were so many arguments about changing to 90/10 wouldn't be a loss of revenue. Apparently raising the prices on NR to cover the deficit that never existed in interesting. Also, according to the experts there was no way in hell that outfitters would get tags. Hmmm, things have changed. Politics are interesting, no doubt about it. It almost seems folks were pissing in each other's cheerios just to piss on each other instead of considering what really could happen with a task force. I also expect that someone in the legislature will have a fix proposed to corner crossing to prohibit it in the future. I expect that will be a big battle that may affect where all this goes when it gets to the legislature. It will be an interesting session in the Wyoming Legislature next year.

Rich
Could have all been avoided, but a bunch of non residents went batchit crazy over 90-10 for the big 5.

So batchit crazy they jumped in bed with WOGA to stop residents from enjoying allocations similar to what they enjoy in their states of residence.

Now it's about to bite the same fools in the a$$ via losing 75% of their nr tags for deer, pronghorn, and elk tags.

I've been on the phone all day today talking to a bunch of folks that are going to try to stop this bullchit that a bunch of nrs accelerated via a temper tantrum over a few moose, sheep, goat, and bison tags and supporting WOGA.

That was in between reading legal memos regarding corner crossing, getting updates on the judiciary interim committee, finding a lobbyist to hire, and figuring out how to fund it all. I'll probably end up paying for some of it out of pocket.

Thanks for doing nothing Rich, your contribution is really something.

Book your next guided hunt and give it a rest.
 
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The whole 90/10 issue didn't start because a bunch of NR's were whining. It started because WY residents wanted more tags for themselves, which they can do. The WYOGA was going to do what they were going to do whether NR's said anything or not. They are in it for themselves just like everyone else. Its also clear that the WY legislator's paid little attention to NR's as they should listen to their constituents.

You also have no idea what I am involved in here in my home state or how long I have been involved in wildlife issues. I also appreciate you taking care of my daughter, son in law and my 3 grandchildren's hunting rights as Wyoming residents. I would much rather see them have more opportunity in the coming years and it looks like it will play out that way.

I don't know where you get your information on when, where and how I am hunting or that it matters? You have also said over and over that NR's opinions don't matter in WY. I'm not sure what I am supposed to get involved with as it is not my state to make those decisions in. What I have commented on is how we treat each other as people and hunters. It's clear that divide and conquer is the new political tactic in our time. I don't think hunters should be playing divide and conquer and arguing incessantly about what is fair and what isn't. I expect all the western states to look at how residents are being treated and WY is the one working on that issue now. I do have some compassion for folks who thought they were going on a sheep, moose or goat hunts in the near future after spending years of income just to see the end game changed. I have learned a long time ago that life isn't fair and tomorrow isn't promised.

Rich
 
As a NR who’s invested in points for many yrs, this boils my damn blood. So tired of having opportunities on PUBLIC lands taken away from me…

Im also tired of hearing residents whine about wanting more hunting opportunities and how somehow the small percentage of tags that go to NR are somehow the problem with declining herds, etc…
 
As a NR who’s invested in points for many yrs, this boils my damn blood. So tired of having opportunities on PUBLIC lands taken away from me…

Im also tired of hearing residents whine about wanting more hunting opportunities and how somehow the small percentage of tags that go to NR are somehow the problem with declining herds, etc…
I think the majority of residents could care less about NR getting general tags! It's when they get the hard to draw tags, that residents can't get!
Honestly, that's not right!
 
As a NR who’s invested in points for many yrs, this boils my damn blood. So tired of having opportunities on PUBLIC lands taken away from me…

Im also tired of hearing residents whine about wanting more hunting opportunities and how somehow the small percentage of tags that go to NR are somehow the problem with declining herds, etc…
Who said the licence allocation had anything to do with declining herds I haven't heard that one yet?
 
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The whole 90/10 issue didn't start because a bunch of NR's were whining. It started because WY residents wanted more tags for themselves, which they can do. The WYOGA was going to do what they were going to do whether NR's said anything or not. They are in it for themselves just like everyone else. Its also clear that the WY legislator's paid little attention to NR's as they should listen to their constituents.

You also have no idea what I am involved in here in my home state or how long I have been involved in wildlife issues. I also appreciate you taking care of my daughter, son in law and my 3 grandchildren's hunting rights as Wyoming residents. I would much rather see them have more opportunity in the coming years and it looks like it will play out that way.

I don't know where you get your information on when, where and how I am hunting or that it matters? You have also said over and over that NR's opinions don't matter in WY. I'm not sure what I am supposed to get involved with as it is not my state to make those decisions in. What I have commented on is how we treat each other as people and hunters. It's clear that divide and conquer is the new political tactic in our time. I don't think hunters should be playing divide and conquer and arguing incessantly about what is fair and what isn't. I expect all the western states to look at how residents are being treated and WY is the one working on that issue now. I do have some compassion for folks who thought they were going on a sheep, moose or goat hunts in the near future after spending years of income just to see the end game changed. I have learned a long time ago that life isn't fair and tomorrow isn't promised.

Rich
If you believe what you typed in that post then you obviously haven't been paying attention.

You just don't know any better and I can't fault you for that.
 
One thing is consistent anyway, let's take the NR hunters money for years, pull the rug out from under him then charge him more to make up the lost revenue we created.

you're going to have to double the NR price every year to cover the lost point fees until you actually have to pay your own way. some folks are fine with that, some won't be .

Once the 90/10 is achieved then it will be 95/5 then 99/1 and the NR draw odds will look like sheep tags and deer points will be $400. the deer/elk /pronghorn will be a total waste of money like the big 5 have become and even the slow learners will figure it out. .

I don't care this whole game is getting tiresome and I'm going to burn my points everywhere before they're useless and concentrate more on Alaska and Canada. if you're young or on a limited income you might best look for another activity because hunting as we've known it is about over.
 
WY residents absolutely deserve their 90%.

95-5-5 on the higher quality portion of DEP draw probably impacts alot more NRs than 90/10 on the Big 5.

I wish the possible parameters of this grand proposal had come out prior to this year's WY modification deadline so I could have tried to burn points in 2022 and make an exit.

And as people exit, they go back to their own states and increase the pressure for reciprocal action. If WY is 95-5-5 + NR wilderness rule, many other states could easily go 95/5 or 97/3.
 
Of course they will, greed is never satisfied. it will be 99/1 some day then 100% then they'll try to figure out how to have county preference. it's human nature.

Money is the only thing that's held the status quo this long but now we're all liv'in large and we'll pay a little more if we can take it from someone else . it could backfire if we go into a recession for a while but the general direction is in place it can't be stopped.

The one thing that could be the turd in the punchbowl is the landowners. residents are too cheap to pay and if the NR's don't make it worth their while to have game everywhere the game will go away that's a fact. not many herds in the west don't have to spend at least part of their time on private land so it could get interesting when this dog catches the car.
 
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And as people exit, they go back to their own states and increase the pressure for reciprocal action. If WY is 95-5-5 + NR wilderness rule, many other states could easily go 95/5 or 97/3.
I agree with this and my opinion is that this is how it should be. I certainly hope that my state reciprocates and I will lobby for such. I like to hunt my state more than anywhere else. Resources are limited and it makes sense for people to participate primarily in their own states. As such, residents should enjoy extreme preference. Hopefully, it becomes easier for residents to hunt in their own states as more tags are allotted to them. Once it all shakes out, I bet there is still decent opportunity for NR hunters who are still willing to participate.

In my state of Nevada, more than 50% of resident applicants sit out every year waiting for a chance to hunt locally. Hunters in Utah are now waiting multiple years for a 'general' deer tag. They are more important to me than people who travel out of state as a secondary or additional opportunity.

As far as greed, I guess everyone is guilty as we all want a piece of the very limited resource, both our own and that which belongs to others. I wont mince words, I want to hunt in my own state as much as possible and I don't begrudge others that feel the same way in other places. ----SS
 
Do
I agree with this and my opinion is that this is how it should be. I certainly hope that my state reciprocates and I will lobby for such. I like to hunt my state more than anywhere else. Resources are limited and it makes sense for people to participate primarily in their own states. As such, residents should enjoy extreme preference. Hopefully, it becomes easier for residents to hunt in their own states as more tags are allotted to them. Once it all shakes out, I bet there is still decent opportunity for NR hunters who are still willing to participate.

In my state of Nevada, more than 50% of resident applicants sit out every year waiting for a chance to hunt locally. Hunters in Utah are now waiting multiple years for a 'general' deer tag. They are more important to me than people who travel out of state as a secondary or additional opportunity.

As far as greed, I guess everyone is guilty as we all want a piece of the very limited resource, both our own and that which belongs to others. I wont mince words, I want to hunt in my own state as much as possible and I don't begrudge others that feel the same way in other places. ----SS
Do you have 20 plus years of points in some states planning for hunts after you retire, or once children are out of college? Seems a lot of the residents of any state that want to push out more NR are not vested in other states. Also I talk to a lot of residents who complain about not being able to draw. Most are applying for top tier units that have odds worst than sheep odds. Hell, I have been applying for a hunt in my home state for 47 years. I understand I may never draw it.
 
Do

Do you have 20 plus years of points in some states planning for hunts after you retire, or once children are out of college? Seems a lot of the residents of any state that want to push out more NR are not vested in other states. Also I talk to a lot of residents who complain about not being able to draw. Most are applying for top tier units that have odds worst than sheep odds. Hell, I have been applying for a hunt in my home state for 47 years. I understand I may never draw it.
Yes, more than 20 years of points in some states and not a single one I apply in hasn't changed their points, application, and other processes over that time.

It happens.
 
What do you think will happen to the general season elk tag odds? Right now, it is 4 NR points to draw. How much do you think these changes will alter that point scenario? Could it go up to 6 points needed next year, for example?
 
What do you think will happen to the general season elk tag odds? Right now, it is 4 NR points to draw. How much do you think these changes will alter that point scenario? Could it go up to 6 points needed next year, for example?
If Elk went 90/10, theoretical odds for a Gen tag would increase. If they raised the 7250 cap and went to regions? Who knows? would depend on what the region caps are set at but overall they should get better. If they go with outfitter set asides? All you would have to do is book with and outfitter and you are set.
 
If Elk went 90/10, theoretical odds for a Gen tag would increase. If they raised the 7250 cap and went to regions? Who knows? would depend on what the region caps are set at but overall they should get better. If they go with outfitter set asides? All you would have to do is book with and outfitter and you are set.
Book with an outfitter, huh?? Not a chance. LOL. I hope I didn't screw myself. All we can do is pray for the best, right? I understand the residents wanting more tags but I disagree with giving NR tags to outfitters. Is it a tax thing for W G and F? Will it generate more tax revenue?
 
I understand the residents wanting more tags but I disagree with giving NR tags to outfitters. Is it a tax thing for W G and F? Will it generate more tax revenue?
As do I. It has nothing to do with taxes or State revenue. It makes life easier on the outfitters. Also helps improves odds for those that have the means and desire to book with an outfitter.
 
6 points for WY-GEN bull might seem like a bargain the next few years if they go 95-5-5 on the quality tags. Or, even anything close to that.

A DIY tag for WY 100/124 bull would probably be a 30-50 year draw to run out all the people waiting for those tags? Someone will run the numbers on that. Many of those guys will instead take the off-ramp with the GEN tag.

But maybe the GEN tag would normalize again after those exiting guys all got off. I'll average down with my son and take the GEN exit ramp. I would have done that this year if I had known the WY outfitters really had this much power.
 
Do

Do you have 20 plus years of points in some states planning for hunts after you retire, or once children are out of college? Seems a lot of the residents of any state that want to push out more NR are not vested in other states. Also I talk to a lot of residents who complain about not being able to draw. Most are applying for top tier units that have odds worst than sheep odds. Hell, I have been applying for a hunt in my home state for 47 years. I understand I may never draw it.
Yes I do. I have been applying in 7+ states for nearly 30 years. I have drawn some tags and also have a bunch of points.

For my age, I have a considerable amount of skin in the game. -SS
 
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I am just glad to have drawn a 100 bull tag with 0 points, may as well make what might be my last Wyoming bull hunt a good one. Burned my antelope points last year and most likely deer tomorrow. Make it an easy choice to not start building again

Wyoming has treated me pretty good in the past, multiple quality elk, deer and goats.
 
I don’t think many nonres realize that tags available for diy/oyo hunters would actually be less than 5% with 90/5/5!

Nonres landowner tags are currently unlimited to nonres landowners that qualify and are issued prior to the public draw. Wealthy out of state landowners can purchase land that qualifies and be issued high demand tags each and every year!

What makes things even worse is outfitters are trying to get some of these landowner tags transferable!

To add on to the flawed landowner system is many of these units are 50 to 87% public land and offer 30 to 70% of nonres tags to nonres landowners prior to the public draw. Unit 124 elk is a prime example. 70% of nonres tags are issued to landowners prior to the public draw even though 70% of 124 is public land. Doesn’t make any sense to me?

I certainly hope the task force pulls the reins back on landowners and outfitters! The majority of hunters that enjoy hunting on their own are getting stabbed in the back!
 
I don’t think many nonres realize that tags available for diy/oyo hunters would actually be less than 5% with 90/5/5!

Nonres landowner tags are currently unlimited to nonres landowners that qualify and are issued prior to the public draw. Wealthy out of state landowners can purchase land that qualifies and be issued high demand tags each and every year!

What makes things even worse is outfitters are trying to get some of these landowner tags transferable!

To add on to the flawed landowner system is many of these units are 50 to 87% public land and offer 30 to 70% of nonres tags to nonres landowners prior to the public draw. Unit 124 elk is a prime example. 70% of nonres tags are issued to landowners prior to the public draw even though 70% of 124 is public land. Doesn’t make any sense to me?

I certainly hope the task force pulls the reins back on landowners and outfitters! The majority of hunters that enjoy hunting on their own are getting stabbed in the back!
Well jims I guess it’s time for you to just pony up and go on your first guided pronghorn hu— oh wait. Disregard.

Love,

Enso
 
I don’t think many nonres realize that tags available for diy/oyo hunters would actually be less than 5% with 90/5/5!

Nonres landowner tags are currently unlimited to nonres landowners that qualify and are issued prior to the public draw. Wealthy out of state landowners can purchase land that qualifies and be issued high demand tags each and every year!

What makes things even worse is outfitters are trying to get some of these landowner tags transferable!

To add on to the flawed landowner system is many of these units are 50 to 87% public land and offer 30 to 70% of nonres tags to nonres landowners prior to the public draw. Unit 124 elk is a prime example. 70% of nonres tags are issued to landowners prior to the public draw even though 70% of 124 is public land. Doesn’t make any sense to me?

I certainly hope the task force pulls the reins back on landowners and outfitters! The majority of hunters that enjoy hunting on their own are getting stabbed in the back!
Starting to look like you better concentrate on Colorado with all that awesome opportunity you have there. The small town economies will really appreciate.

Maybe share you points with all your "friends" so they can have all those awesome smiles.

Pitter-Patter...
 
Buzz you have a point all the states I apply in have changed over the years, but only WY has cut the quota in half. with the outfitter quota idea you're actually even making it worse than that.

Raising the price of the football game ticket is one thing, moving the goal post to 200 yards after my team gets possession of the ball is entirely another.

It's not fair but who said life's fair. I don't want to use an outfitter but if I have to to burn my points before I'm tripping over my beard I will. after that it will be like the big 5 I drew my tags and you'll never see another dime from me again. good luck to those who keep playing a game where the dealer makes up the rules as he goes and let's you know if you win.
 
I have never met a single person face to face who I watch on here. But, what's to be proven by being ugly? I've been on here all of a year, and there is more negative than positive. Way more than every other group of people I associate with. I'm very involved in school, church, work in the construction community and a community on the front range that I have very little in common with fundamentally. They are far more forgiving and understanding than what i see here. I wish my home state would favor residents more. Probably not going to happen. I can agree with 90/10. If we had that it sure would be nice. I'd be happy if otc for nonresidents went away. I am a relatively new entrant into the western draws. I have the odds in every state that I enter the draw in memorized. My plan for a lot of these hunts are not going as planned for sure. But my year still manages to fill up. Even to the point of not hunting all the tags we draw. And now I have this sweet little GSP who needs exercise this next fall. (Musings of a roofer)
 
Buzz you have a point all the states I apply in have changed over the years, but only WY has cut the quota in half. with the outfitter quota idea you're actually even making it worse than that.

Raising the price of the football game ticket is one thing, moving the goal post to 200 yards after my team gets possession of the ball is entirely another.

It's not fair but who said life's fair. I don't want to use an outfitter but if I have to to burn my points before I'm tripping over my beard I will. after that it will be like the big 5 I drew my tags and you'll never see another dime from me again. good luck to those who keep playing a game where the dealer makes up the rules as he goes and let's you know if you win.
Another way to look at it is, Wyoming was very generous to NR's for a long, long time and have just now come in line with every other state in allocations.

The goal posts in the other states I apply in were always 200 yards away from the get-go.

This decision would be way easier if every NR was like Sebastian, and a few others on here, I'd really put some serious effort into making sure 90-10 for DEP would pass.

He'll probably luck out and get to ride the coattails of those NR's that don't deserve what is about to happen.

We'll see if enough Residents are willing to privatize half of the NR's tags for 90-10. I think its going to be close.
 
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Buzz you have a point all the states I apply in have changed over the years, but only WY has cut the quota in half. with the outfitter quota idea you're actually even making it worse than that.

Raising the price of the football game ticket is one thing, moving the goal post to 200 yards after my team gets possession of the ball is entirely another.

It's not fair but who said life's fair. I don't want to use an outfitter but if I have to to burn my points before I'm tripping over my beard I will. after that it will be like the big 5 I drew my tags and you'll never see another dime from me again. good luck to those who keep playing a game where the dealer makes up the rules as he goes and let's you know if you win.
It was you that encouraged every NR to support WYOGA, You said they were the only friend a NR had. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
 
Who are the outfitters and guides on this board that are voting to get the NR tags in their possession. That would be nice to know who is pimping the tags.
 
I notice it was mentioned in the outfitter wish list, transferable doe/fawn & cow/calf landowner tags. Not mentioned anywhere else really.

What do you think the chances are that this gets slipped in while everyone is focusing on 90/10 and outfitter set asides. Or as part of the "grand compromise".
 
As soon as the outfitters gave up 90/10 for the big 5 without even a fight......big red flags were waving!

Lets take a look at how landowner tags affect Wyo res public tag opportunity! 124 elk is a prime example. The quota in 124 elk type 1 for Wyo residents in 2021 was 54 tags. There were 24 resident landowner tags issued in 2021. 42% of the total Wyo res tags were issued to res landowners. Again, unit 124 is 70% public land. There would only be 5 additional tags issued to Wyo res with 90/10 or 90/5/5 in unit 124. Again, there were 24 res landowner tags issued in 124 which there is 70% public land! 5 vs 24 tags....think about it Wyo res!

Units 87 and 89 are popular high demand deer units for Casper residents. Approximately 1/3 of Wyo res deer tags (50 out of 160 total res tags) went to resident landowners in units 87 and 89 in 2021. Again, landowner tags are taken off the top of the pile of tags issued prior to the public draw.

15 of the 43 limited deer units in Wyo (35% of the total) had 20+% of resident tags issued to landowners prior to the draw and not available in the public draw.

There were 50 landowner tags issued in 87 and 89 in 2021. In constrast, there would only be 13 addition res tags issued with 90/10 or 90/5/5 in units 87 and 89. 13 vs 50 tags.....think about it Wyo res!

Here are the total number of landowner tags issued to Wyo res and nonres in 2021 for elk, deer, and antelope. If landowner tags are taken off the top of the pool of resident and nonres quotas prior to the draw.....nonres are taking it on the head! There is a dis-proportion of landowner tags issued to nonres vs residents. I really believe there needs to be caps placed on landowner tags. Right now landowner tags are unlimited and can be purchased every year in high demand units.

Elk - 921 res landowner, 407 nonres landowner
Deer - 398 res landowner, 353 nonres landowner
Antelope - 866 res landowner, 237 nonres landowner

Doesn't it make sense to put a cap on the % of landowner tags are issued....especially in high demand units?

To top it off, what happens when landowners/outfitters that have strong voice on the task force ask for transferable RESIDENT landowner tags?

Outfitters/landowners likely won't stop there....what happens when they ask for RFW or similar tags that are segmented from the resident pool of tags? Watch your backs Wyo res!
 
As soon as the outfitters gave up 90/10 for the big 5 without even a fight......big red flags were waving!

Lets take a look at how landowner tags affect Wyo res public tag opportunity! 124 elk is a prime example. The quota in 124 elk type 1 for Wyo residents in 2021 was 54 tags. There were 24 resident landowner tags issued in 2021. 42% of the total Wyo res tags were issued to res landowners. Again, unit 124 is 70% public land. There would only be 5 additional tags issued to Wyo res with 90/10 or 90/5/5 in unit 124. Again, there were 24 res landowner tags issued in 124 which there is 70% public land! 5 vs 24 tags....think about it Wyo res!

Units 87 and 89 are popular high demand deer units for Casper residents. Approximately 1/3 of Wyo res deer tags (50 out of 160 total res tags) went to resident landowners in units 87 and 89 in 2021. Again, landowner tags are taken off the top of the pile of tags issued prior to the public draw.

15 of the 43 limited deer units in Wyo (35% of the total) had 20+% of resident tags issued to landowners prior to the draw and not available in the public draw.

There were 50 landowner tags issued in 87 and 89 in 2021. In constrast, there would only be 13 addition res tags issued with 90/10 or 90/5/5 in units 87 and 89. 13 vs 50 tags.....think about it Wyo res!

Here are the total number of landowner tags issued to Wyo res and nonres in 2021 for elk, deer, and antelope. If landowner tags are taken off the top of the pool of resident and nonres quotas prior to the draw.....nonres are taking it on the head! There is a dis-proportion of landowner tags issued to nonres vs residents. I really believe there needs to be caps placed on landowner tags. Right now landowner tags are unlimited and can be purchased every year in high demand units.

Elk - 921 res landowner, 407 nonres landowner
Deer - 398 res landowner, 353 nonres landowner
Antelope - 866 res landowner, 237 nonres landowner

Doesn't it make sense to put a cap on the % of landowner tags are issued....especially in high demand units?

To top it off, what happens when landowners/outfitters that have strong voice on the task force ask for transferable RESIDENT landowner tags?

Outfitters/landowners likely won't stop there....what happens when they ask for RFW or similar tags that are segmented from the resident pool of tags? Watch your backs Wyo res!
Why do you care anything about resident landowner tags?
You should be concerned with what 90/10 and NR landowner tags do to your odds.
 
I’ve been told that I am selfish and only care about myself. In reality I truely care about the average joe hunter in Wyoming and across the country. I’m trying to make a stand for all diy/oyo hunters! It’s sad what the outfitter/landowner interests are doing on the task force! I would also hate to see what happened with landowner tags in Colorado happen in Wyoming.

My main point is the Wyo landowner system isn’t doing what it originally was designed to do and has many flaws that impact diy/oyo hunters.
 
As a NR opinion only, I think a good compromise would be 90/10 for NR DEP with the full 10 going to the regular and special draws. Make unit-wide landowner permits fully transferrable so the guides can work deals to get their richest clients tags every year just like in other western states. I also think transferrable Private Land only landowner tags would be another option to provide revenue for guides and landowners while preserving DIY public land opportunity. ---SS
 
I’ve been told that I am selfish and only care about myself. In reality I truely care about the average joe hunter in Wyoming and across the country. I’m trying to make a stand for all diy/oyo hunters! It’s sad what the outfitter/landowner interests are doing on the task force! I would also hate to see what happened with landowner tags in Colorado happen in Wyoming.

My main point is the Wyo landowner system isn’t doing what it originally was designed to do and has many flaws that impact diy/oyo hunters.
?........... ?................... ?
 
Buzz, yes the goal post was always 200 yards away in most states but when they took our money we knew that . there are lots of guys with 16 sheep points that might as well walk away from an investment they wouldn't have made if they'd know .

Yes WY has been generous but the generosity was well compensated . now you want the same compensation without the generosity. I don't think it's going to work but who knows NR hunters aren't known for their math skills .

Yes I supported the outfitters because they supported the NR hunters, I can't vote in WY and obviously people like you aren't working on my behalf so who else do I have to turn to ? they're the reason the big 5 took you 10 years to get cut in half. in that time I drew my moose and sheep and I'm out now. thank you WYOGA.

Now things have changed and WYOGA can't hold the status quo any longer. they're trying to save their businesses and as a capitalist I can't blame them. I didn't say I liked it but I get it, just like you they're looking out for #1.

I'm not bashing you if I was a WY resident I'd probably be for hosing the NR too. I just don't think it's fair to sell someone a product then cut the value in half. the right thing to do is admit you just eliminated a lot of people who would have drawn a tag in the next 5 years from EVER drawing a big 5 tag. you should offer to refund their point fees since the state never provided any service for the money it was a future investment that now has no value. the application fees are fair because there was a chance at drawing out of the 25% so they had some value. But that's laughable isn't it ? because it is and always has been 100% about money.

With the deer/elk/pronghorn it's not quite as dire. some people will never draw the tag they want but they'll draw something some day. it's still a hose job but it's not hopeless like sheep and moose.
 
As a capitalist do you think forcing business via government handouts and regulation is the way to go? I lean towards free markets and innovation myself.
I can tell you what....Pats Meats in Mills and High Country Meats will certainly have a big loss of revenue. Has Wy F and G thought about the little guys like that? They rely on hundreds of NR hunters to process their game from Sept to November....looks like they'll need to tighten that household budget a bit. It is sad what Wyoming is doing.
 
Not that it matters, but as a NR I have no problem with the 90/10 for DEA. Wyoming has been generous for a long time to us. I advocate for 90/10 in my state of NV, But as far as giving 50% of the NR tags to outfitters that seems a tad extreme but WY should be able to dictate what they want. It sucks that people who have built points might be affected but it is what it is. Not too late this year to try and use your deer or antelope points either. Just my 2 cents
 
Yes I do believe is capitalism and I never said I don't believe in free markets wherever possible. that's not to say there can't be any regulation our nation would crumble without it. greed is a great motivator but unchecked it can be disastrous.

Sure the reduction in NR hunters will hurt local economies. but nobody gives a FF about the little guy anymore that's why the mom and pop operations are fading away.
 
Another way to look at it is, Wyoming was very generous to NR's for a long, long time and have just now come in line with every other state in allocations.

The goal posts in the other states I apply in were always 200 yards away from the get-go.

This decision would be way easier if every NR was like Sebastian, and a few others on here, I'd really put some serious effort into making sure 90-10 for DEP would pass.

He'll probably luck out and get to ride the coattails of those NR's that don't deserve what is about to happen.

We'll see if enough Residents are willing to privatize half of the NR's tags for 90-10. I think its going to be close.
Wyoming gave more to non-residents only because they had more to give.

Wyoming is now choosing to give less to the non-residents even though they still have more to give than the other states.

How much a state gives to non-residents has previously been based on how much was available to give instead of some arbitrary percentage of tags. That seemed to work fine for quite some time, but now the trend is changing.

Wyoming providing a lot of tags to non-residents was/is a result of their low human population and abundance of game rather than their "generosity."

I could give two chits less about how many tags Wyoming does or does not give to non-residents, but what I stated above is the simple truth of the matter.
 
If this is going to happen regardless, I have two things for the "Grand Compromise":

1. 90/10 across the board for ALL LQ units regardless of draw odds.

2. NO waiting periods for residents.

Waiting periods will worsen draw odds in the 30%+ units after the initial years. For example: If you total the successful applicants in areas with 30% or less draw odds, and they hypothetical total 1500 successful residents a year, then you possibly create 4500 (1500 x 3 years) people putting in for areas with greater than 30% draw odds. Think for crying out loud! You're just screwing the people putting in for the 30%+ areas as a choice. If people are going to apply for hard-to-get tags, then make them live with their choice every year regardless of draw success. It's like built in point creep, without the points, but for people who just want to hunt less-desirable areas. Who came up with that terrible idea?
 
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If this is going to happen regardless, I have two things for the "Grand Compromise":

1. 90/10 across the board for ALL LQ units regardless of draw odds.

2. NO waiting periods for residents.

Waiting periods will worsen draw odds in the 30%+ units after the initial years. For example: If you total the successful applicants in areas with 30% or less draw odds, and they hypothetical total 1500 successful residents a year, then you possibly create 4500 (1500 x 3 years) people putting in for areas with greater than 30% draw odds. Think for crying out loud! You're just screwing the people putting in for the 30%+ areas as a choice. If people are going to apply for hard-to-get tags, then make them live with their choice every year regardless of draw success. It's like built in point creep, without the points, but for people who just want to hunt less-desirable areas. Who came up with that terrible idea?
Waiting periods have become quite common in quite a few Western states nowadays.
 
States will do what you will with tag allocations and such, but I wish all these discussions did not come with a heaping does of "stick it to the NR" as if we are just a monolithic group of complete a-holes, aliens, enemies. Some voices on here and on similar discussions, voices I otherwise respect, at times seem a little too gleeful and spiteful at the expense of others. I know it's not sticks and stones, but it always reinforces what we have lost and makes me question where we are headed - as hunters, as people. Wouldn't we be happier if we could turn back the hands of time 5 or 6 years when internet hunting forums were more dominated by what we have in common, rather than where we drive from. Maybe they never were. But I like to believe it anyway. In the end though, who cares about feelings , when it still comes down to the facts. The current situation is not a good one for just about anyone - long term - money is talking, traditional practices are walking and opportunity is slipping slowly even for residents. Can we agree on that?

Good luck to all in the upcoming deer/antelope draws.... looks like it will make for an interesting edition of panic-driven point-burning draw statistics.
 
I think all limited quota licenses (both resident and NR) should be auctioned off by the Muley Fanatic Foundation. The WYGFD wouldn’t have to conduct a draw and they would get way more money. Make it so 90% of the money generated has to go to WYGFD.

It’s time. And it’s for conservation. What’s to hate about it? If your a resident and don’t want to bid just buy general tags.

I’d pay 5000 a year for a 141 deer tag every year and I know a lot of people that would.

Let’s do it Joshua coursey. I know you read these threads.
 
I can tell you what....Pats Meats in Mills and High Country Meats will certainly have a big loss of revenue. Has Wy F and G thought about the little guys like that? They rely on hundreds of NR hunters to process their game from Sept to November....looks like they'll need to tighten that household budget a bit. It is sad what Wyoming is doing.
Sorry I can't buy this one. Processors don't have a different price structure for res vs NR and most residents don't cut their own game.The good processors have waiting list every year during hunting season. They will be fine. Still, I understand there will be a decrease in NR dollars coming to the state if this crazy plan happens.
 
All U NR squalling on here isnt getting U guys any place... U guys should be sending emails and blowing up the phone because Sly and the boys are getting ready to run rough shot on U boys and everyone of u where told a long time ago not to crawl in that bed but U did and now they want theirs. All of U NR should of left well enough alone because %10 percent sounds pretty dammm good about right now... I here the train a comin lol
 
It may be Friday but it's a little early to hit the crack pipe isn't it ?

So JM and Buzz, the application deadline a is Tuesday. I wasn't going to apply in WY this year because I think I'm burning 24 points in CO on a tag that's the same dates as my WY hunt. I don't expect even with max points I'd draw WY but I might try and I can return my CO tag if I draw .

What do you think the odds are this 10% deal is going to pass ? and I assume it wouldn't take effect until next year correct ?
 
@Togwotee I honestly can't believe it's on the table. My gut tells me no, but they way they were talking at the meeting, I just don't know.

I asked several outfitters present if they would go with 90/10 if they got an outfitter draw and they said no. I told Sy this the next day and he says it's going to happen anyway.

Next year would be the absolute soonest and that would surprise me. More like 2024.
 
90/10 doesn’t favor outfitters. It cuts their potential clients in 1/2. Even with 90/5/5 the number of limited tags are so low and dispersed over many outfitters that it really won't bring them any more business than they currently have.

Outfitters/landowners have had an agenda from the start! Set aside tags, tags that would go to their clients that sign contracts, transferable landowner/outfitter tags, RFW type tags….the list continues to grow every meeting. Where does the madness end?

I think everyone but the outfitters probably notice their selfish attempt to access every tag available. Hopefully other members of the task force continue to support public hunters that have been so supportive of Wyo and the WG&F for so many years.
 
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Thanks Jm that helps, I may wait and hopefully the CO results come out before the WY deadline.

I'm not hoping it turns out this way but I'd think in a 90/10 scenario with a 5% outfitter draw it would help some outfitters and hurt others. if you're a wilderness elk outfitter bad deal, if you're a deer ,pronghorn or non wilderness elk outfitter good deal.
 
Thanks Jm that helps, I may wait and hopefully the CO results come out before the WY deadline.

I'm not hoping it turns out this way but I'd think in a 90/10 scenario with a 5% outfitter draw it would help some outfitters and hurt others. if you're a wilderness elk outfitter bad deal, if you're a deer ,pronghorn or non wilderness elk outfitter good deal.
You have it all wrong. It will not hurt wilderness outfitters a bit, they're going to take 50% of the NR general tags too. Plus, if they lower the LQ to 10% that means even more general tags.

IMO, it will hurt them all and make a bunch of lazy, crappy outfitters just like it was in Montana when there was outfitter set asides.

Bunch of worthless outfitters that didn't care if their clients had a bad hunt or not, they knew they had a waiting list as they controlled 11k of the 17k NR tags.

Sy is out for general elk tags, that's a majority of their elk business.
 
90/10 doesn’t favor outfitters. It cuts their potential clients in 1/2. Even with 90/5/5 the number of limited tags are so low and dispersed over many outfitters that it really won't bring them any more business than they currently have.

Outfitters/landowners have had an agenda from the start! Set aside tags, tags that would go to their clients that sign contracts, transferable landowner/outfitter tags, RFW type tags….the list continues to grow every meeting. Where does the madness end?

I think everyone but the outfitters probably notice their selfish attempt to access every tag available. Hopefully other members of the task force continue to support public hunters that have been so supportive of Wyo and the WG&F for so many years.
Yes, 90-10 will favor outfitters, because if it passes, they're going to have 50% of the NR tags including region deer tags and general elk tags.

It will absolutely bring them more business and guaranteed clients in many of the pronghorn areas where they currently take virtually no hunters. Not many NR's pay for a pronghorn hunt in units with mostly public land. Now they'll have to pay an outfitter to get in for the outfitters 50% of those tags.

Try some math.
 
God I can’t imagine needing an outfitter on Wyoming public land for pronghorn. Old, health issues/mobility, private land, sure hire an outfitter. You have that choice now.

But them getting dedicated tags is just beyond the pale. Wonder if coastal states should require WY residents to hire a personal lifeguard to visit the beach? For safety! And wouldnt it be great for the economy!! But… and this is a big but…. THATS A STUPID IDEA!
 
I think all limited quota licenses (both resident and NR) should be auctioned off by the Muley Fanatic Foundation. The WYGFD wouldn’t have to conduct a draw and they would get way more money. Make it so 90% of the money generated has to go to WYGFD.

It’s time. And it’s for conservation. What’s to hate about it? If your a resident and don’t want to bid just buy general tags.

I’d pay 5000 a year for a 141 deer tag every year and I know a lot of people that would.

Let’s do it Joshua coursey. I know you read these threads.
They need a certain emoji for that post ? so had to use the laughing one !! But you now which one I would use if it was a choice lol
 
If the general tags aren't cut with those outfitters I can see your point. but since they had a captive audience already I'm not sure it will matter much. but it'll be a kick in the guts for those in the draw areas.
 
So how is it going to go over with residents when the outfitters they forced the NR hunters to use are pounding the pronghorn and deer hunting areas ? you know sucess and the size of the take will be up and the competition will be way higher. less hunters yes, way more effective yes as well.

Great time for outfitters to lease up more private land too now that they have a steady supply of forced clients to satisfy.

If I was a resident I'm not sure this would be the smok'in deal I thought it would be. I'd rather deal with a couple knot head NR hunters who're lost than a local guide .
 
So how is it going to go over with residents when the outfitters they forced the NR hunters to use are pounding the pronghorn and deer hunting areas ? you know sucess and the size of the take will be up and the competition will be way higher. less hunters yes, way more effective yes as well.

Great time for outfitters to lease up more private land too now that they have a steady supply of forced clients to satisfy.

If I was a resident I'm not sure this would be the smok'in deal I thought it would be. I'd rather deal with a couple knot head NR hunters who're lost than a local guide .
You think outfitters are competition to me? They aren't, they won't outwork me and I have most all of hunting season off work. I'm not worried about competition from outfitters.

I think you do have a legitimate concerns about leasing, and that is one of the reasons corner crossing is so important.

I also agree that this is no smoking good deal for residents, because I don't think giving outfitters half the NR quotas is worth 90-10. Let me rephrase, I know its not.
 
As a local my thoughts are this whole task force is its a crock of ****. It's made up of landowners, guides , outfitters and ranchers who are only interested in the benefit of their pockets. They do not care for the DIY hunter Res or non......

As a resident I am NOT in favor of 90/10 and most I know do not support it. Residents just want a fair shake at tags in their state.. they don't want to continue to have the non residnet cap exceeded after GF give all leftover tags to non residents.......Residents absolutely do not want more tags for guides/outfitters or transferable tags. Crap like that will only continue to make hunting a rich man's game...
 
90:10 on LQ deer and elk tags, general stays but allow regionalization to balance the load (this would even benefit outfitters in private dominated areas) , Elimination of Wilderness law, Require NR to purchase a new annual hunting licence to apply (say, 80-90 bucks), resident leftovers remain resident licences, reduce doe antelope quota, limit NR doe tags to 1, and no outfitter set-asides. Hows that for a simple grand bargain that benefits residents, the budget, and avoids slitting the throats of your brother and sister hunters across the border.

This would sound much more like something a pragmatic and fair WYOMING would do, rather than the current corrupt scheme being discussed.
 
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It's sad to see other states following the Utah way and becoming more corporate hunting friendly.

The "conservation" money generated goes primarily to the places the corporations hunt.

The F&G departments become infested with lapdogs for the corporations.

Doesn't matter what the split is. It's the power lost by the averages that is concerning.

Hopefully after decades, Utah is clawing some of that power back.

I hate seeing Wyoming not learn from their neighbors. The NR and R should have worked together to check the Outfitters, not let the outfitters split the 2.

Unfortunately, if it passes, you will see what we have here with power and influence and how it destroys, in the name of inches for dollars, and kill at all costs.
 
It’s only a matter of time before the outfitters get their way and have a cut of the non resident tags. You look at this “task force” and what it’s composed of. Landowners, outfitters, and a former used car salesman. It won’t go away til they get what they want. It’s how politics and money works. What will really be interesting is when enough money gets slid under the table and a judge decides only licensed outfitters are allowed to “corner cross”. They were able to get a deal done for the wilderness law. Now they’ll come after everyone’s BLM land res and non res.
 
It’s only a matter of time before the outfitters get their way and have a cut of the non resident tags. You look at this “task force” and what it’s composed of. Landowners, outfitters, and a former used car salesman. It won’t go away til they get what they want. It’s how politics and money works. What will really be interesting is when enough money gets slid under the table and a judge decides only licensed outfitters are allowed to “corner cross”. They were able to get a deal done for the wilderness law. Now they’ll come after everyone’s BLM land res and non res.
I would not think it is as easy as it might seem. The TF has some pull for sure, but I hope the residents here stand up against the move. I know many who are not willing to give the outfitter the hand out. Many of the conservation groups in WY are against the band out.

Many of see how this is a move away from conservation and a threat to make us like Utah. Up here Utah is kind of a 4 letter word.
 
The outfitters aren't the ones wanting to change this so don't put that turd in their pocket. they're trying to save their livelihood's, but you can't blame them for that.

Landowners and outfitters pay taxes, fees and provide jobs for the state and services to people that want them. so that warrants considerable consideration. they don't just wake up in the morning entitled and say where's my tag.
 
The outfitters aren't the ones wanting to change this so don't put that turd in their pocket. they're trying to save their livelihood's, but you can't blame them for that.

Landowners and outfitters pay taxes, fees and provide jobs for the state and services to people that want them. so that warrants considerable consideration. they don't just wake up in the morning entitled and say where's my tag.
Oh ok so who is wanting the change then?
 
God I can’t imagine needing an outfitter on Wyoming public land for pronghorn. Old, health issues/mobility, private land, sure hire an outfitter. You have that choice now.

But them getting dedicated tags is just beyond the pale. Wonder if coastal states should require WY residents to hire a personal lifeguard to visit the beach? For safety! And wouldnt it be great for the economy!! But… and this is a big but…. THATS A STUPID IDEA!
Depends what they want. If they want to kill an 80+" antelope your way better off hiring an outfitter that knows that they are looking at. Not that stupid.
 
The outfitters aren't the ones wanting to change this so don't put that turd in their pocket. they're trying to save their livelihood's, but you can't blame them for that.

Landowners and outfitters pay taxes, fees and provide jobs for the state and services to people that want them. so that warrants considerable consideration. they don't just wake up in the morning entitled and say where's my tag.
Too bad outfitters and the other industries that benefit from wildlife here don't pay a single thin dime to fund the game and fish.

It's always been a mystery to me why a cattle rancher pays for leasing grass, loggers pay for the timber they extract, film makers pay to film on public land. But outfitters extract a state asset, our wildlife, and don't pay a cent for it.
 
The NR hunters pay dearly and what share of the outfitter's clients are NR ? 95% or more ? and what do you call the permit fees the pay to the USFS ? I don't see many outfitters driving Bentleys so I'm not sure why they need to more than any other business.

Outfitters are just like any business if the follow the laws they have a right to make a living. they do too good of a job at what they do that's why the locals hate them. when the outfitter leases land he has the sole right to conduct his business there. when it's on federal land both he and his client have just as much right to be there as any resident. I don't see the problem , if you don't want to hire them don't. but as a NR you might leave us little choice.

Who wants the change ? resident hunters. period.
 
The NR hunters pay dearly and what share of the outfitter's clients are NR ? 95% or more ? and what do you call the permit fees the pay to the USFS ? I don't see many outfitters driving Bentleys so I'm not sure why they need to more than any other business.

Outfitters are just like any business if the follow the laws they have a right to make a living. they do too good of a job at what they do that's why the locals hate them. when the outfitter leases land he has the sole right to conduct his business there. when it's on federal land both he and his client have just as much right to be there as any resident. I don't see the problem , if you don't want to hire them don't. but as a NR you might leave us little choice.

Who wants the change ? resident hunters. period.
I'm a local and a guide. I don't hate them. They don't need any more handouts either if you want the best of the best you can't regulate it until the bad ones can still be successful. Anyone can be an outfitter in Texas and there are some of the best outfits In the U.S there why do they need handouts here?
 
The NR hunters pay dearly and what share of the outfitter's clients are NR ? 95% or more ? and what do you call the permit fees the pay to the USFS ? I don't see many outfitters driving Bentleys so I'm not sure why they need to more than any other business.

Outfitters are just like any business if the follow the laws they have a right to make a living. they do too good of a job at what they do that's why the locals hate them. when the outfitter leases land he has the sole right to conduct his business there. when it's on federal land both he and his client have just as much right to be there as any resident. I don't see the problem , if you don't want to hire them don't. but as a NR you might leave us little choice.

Who wants the change ? resident hunters. period.
That's the hypocrisy of the whole thing, they pay a pittance to the USFS, BLM, or State for use of the land.

They pay ZERO to the GF that funds the very asset they extract and the same resource they need to survive.

It makes no sense they even have a voice in anything related to wildlife. IF they want a seat at the table, how about paying for it?
 
No one has mentioned the fact that it currently is possible to have out of state outfitters and guides that outfit hunters under a Wyo resident outfitters license. I happen to know that a reknown nonres outfitter does this for antelope.

The reason I mention this is because the crazy 90/5/5 outfitter set aside deal for contract clients could potentially help nonres outfitters at the expense of DIY nonres hunters. Those nonres outfitters and guides don’t even reside in Wyo!
 
The “good” news is, a lot of additional game animals will probably be killed by guided and inexperienced NR, and probably a good many on the larger end of the spectrum that would never be killed by NR otherwise. Gone will be the days of DIY tag soup. “100% opportunity” they will advertise, and can’t send a client home empty handed- bad for business. Any 11” antelope and forkie buck better worry even more than they do now! Resident DIY guys will probably enjoy seeing even more grip and grins from the out of staters splashed all over the internet.
 
No one has mentioned the fact that it currently is possible to have out of state outfitters and guides that outfit hunters under a Wyo resident outfitters license. I happen to know that a reknown nonres outfitter does this for antelope.

The reason I mention this is because the crazy 90/5/5 outfitter set aside deal for contract clients could potentially help nonres outfitters at the expense of DIY nonres hunters. Those nonres outfitters and guides don’t even reside in Wyo!
And this is news to you?

We have this deal called the 10th amendment about interstate commerce, you should probably check it out.
 
The “good” news is, a lot of additional game animals will probably be killed by guided and inexperienced NR, and probably a good many on the larger end of the spectrum that would never be killed by NR otherwise. Gone will be the days of DIY tag soup. “100% opportunity” they will advertise, and can’t send a client home empty handed- bad for business. Any 11” antelope and forkie buck better worry even more than they do now! Resident DIY guys will probably enjoy seeing even more grip and grins from the out of staters splashed all over the internet.
Don't worry, next year it will be NR point restrictions.
 
The outfitters aren't the ones wanting to change this so don't put that turd in their pocket. they're trying to save their livelihood's, but you can't blame them for that.

Landowners and outfitters pay taxes, fees and provide jobs for the state and services to people that want them. so that warrants considerable consideration. they don't just wake up in the morning entitled and say where's my tag.
So they cant make it on their own accord? They need or deserve special government provided welfare? Got it... What other business is allowed to extract a public resource for free? Not only do they get it for free they also get incentives like the wilderness law? Now they need special "free" tags? Seems to me if the outfitters were any good they could make it on their own and not need the massive help they get from the government?
 
Very interesting and demoralizing read! As a NR from AZ I really think that all this petty back and forth of tags/fees/regulation/allocation, etc. is concerning, especially since it is happening in most (probably all) western states. I love to hunt and in my state that seems to be getting harder to do (of course that is a common theme all over). What the heck is the solution for opportunity for residents and non-residents? I don't know but every state game and fish dept. is so political these days they certainly don't have the answer. It seems like the various "sportmans" organizations have also been affected by politics and are steering in the wrong direction. Still no answer.
I moved from Colorado to AZ about 15 years ago and went many years not financially being able to apply and keep my points going in CO. IN the last few years I have been able to apply in CO and New Mexico, Utah and this year for the first time in Wyoming. I certainly haven't had the financial turnaround to afford hiring a guide but my mentality is to try to draw a good tag or two so I can hunt.
So, my only solution is for those of you that don't want to hunt WY anymore, please donate your points to me so I can catch up and draw a deer, antelope or elk (don't worry, I won't even attempt applying for moose or sheep!) hunt .;)
Thanks for reading my rant.
Jeff
 
Hunting is a privilege for NR, not a right. For WY residents, the opportunity to hunt is a right per Constitutional Amendment. Anyways, carry on.
So you can have your state constitutionally protected hunting on your state land. NF and BLM are federal. And the outfitters can suck it. Let the market drive the demand not the government.
 
So you can have your state constitutionally protected hunting on your state land. NF and BLM are federal. And the outfitters can suck it. Let the market drive the demand not the government.
Land ownership doesn't matter, state, federal or private.
 

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