How about Wyoming Wildlife not open to Commercial uses?

TinCup · Jun 9, 2022

Not sure why the citizenry or the wildlife need outftters and guides? In all of my outdoor fishing and hunting endeavors, I've never needed their services. In fact, I'm pretty dang sick of those constant flotillas of guides and clients clogging the waterways and having conflicts on the nat'l forests while "invading" their "territory"

WYOGA pays extremely little in any kind of fees that benefit the citizenry and wildlife and in fact, they cost us all $$$ do to their absolutely free access to the big game inventory and the free management provided by our G & F Department.

How about no Outfitters, no Guides and no WYOGA. I wouldn't miss'em (or need'em) at all...and I hardly know a soul that would, either

Bookhead · Jun 9, 2022

Well I'll be the bad guy I guess. Outfitting does in fact bring quite a bit of money into our state because most the outfitters live here and spend their money here and also there are several outfits that hire multiple people. Some even year around. However I don't agree with any regulation that lowers resident opportunity or any regulation that aids them. There are states that have no outfitter aid and the good outfits survive just fine. We don't need any regulation that helps fly by night outfits to stay in business year after year. My opinion. Also I know some pretty serious resident hunters that get it done on their own that have hired outfitters for sheep and mtn goat. Being one in a lifetime now that will probably be more popular too

Savage110 · Jun 9, 2022

I like it when they crowd into the photo of me and the animal they walked me to for me to shoot. It makes me feel like I have more friends than I actually do. Plus, I love the watermark they put onthe photo, it makes me feel like I am part of the team, not just a paycheck for these wildlife heroes.

nfh · Jun 9, 2022

Outfitters do provide a service. Obvious answer is living states away and not be able to scout. But a lot are willing to give out free information. Last year while scouting for sheep I called my buddy who is an outfitter and I shared him my info. The tips and tricks he taught me helped me better at scouting for sheep. The information of which areas to try and avoid. He kept no secrets. He had some sheep hunters last year and shared what he found that I may be interested in. Without his help over the phone I would of never filled my tag 30 min into opening day. 2 years ago when the outfitter had a late season elk tag and my dad had it he would call me on his satellite phone letting me know they passed on some 360 class bulls were. He offered me several times to grab some horses and mules when I need them

He doesn't have to do that. All I have provided in return is help setting up camp for him and riding some green horses. I come out ahead by spending time in the mountains.

Now he isnt part of wyoga cause he sees what they are about.

I will say I don't believe in outfitter welfare.

There is good outfitters out there and bad ones. Around in our mountain range they clean a lot of trails. They clean more than the average hunter does around here

jims · Jun 10, 2022

My guess outfitters also take many of the cream of the crop critters each year on public land that otherwise would be available to diy hunters. Consider how many outfitters hunt regions g and h hard each year with horses and multiple guides. How many top tier antelope are consistently harvested in top units. How many outfitters compete with res in wilderness areas for elk. If the same nonres diy drew the tag they wouldn’t hunt wilderness. The list of benefits ho on and on!

Outfitters and guides have local and year to year knowledge about units and where to find the top end bucks and bulls. Even with antelope they know how to field judge top bucks. Take a look at a nonres outfitter’s website and see how many top b&c antelope bucks his clients harvest through a res outfitter’s license.

There certainly are a gob of negatives!

Bookhead · Jun 10, 2022

jims said:
My guess outfitters also take many of the cream of the crop critters each year on public land that otherwise would be available to diy hunters. Consider how many outfitters hunt regions g and h hard each year with horses and multiple guides. How many top tier antelope are consistently harvested in top units. How many outfitters compete with res in wilderness areas for elk. If the same nonres diy drew the tag they wouldn’t hunt wilderness. The list of benefits ho on and on!

Outfitters and guides have local and year to year knowledge about units and where to find the top end bucks and bulls. Even with antelope they know how to field judge top bucks. Take a look at a nonres outfitter’s website and see how many top b&c antelope bucks his clients harvest through a res outfitter’s license.

There certainly are a gob of negatives!

If you're talking about pronghorn guide service he has his own outfitting licence in wyo now. And it wouldn't matter if he was or
wasnt hunting those bucks because about 98% of antelope hunters don't know what they're looking at anyway. I've hunted the same areas he outfits in and he's never killed a buck I'd found and we've never really crossed paths so not sure what problem you're trying to make up here

Savage110 · Jun 10, 2022

My question is:

Would NR's be better or worse off with a forced outfitter set aside?

Same question for the (good) outfitters.

Perhaps the forced outfitter set-aside is really a solution for a problem that does not exist, unless you are a outfitter with a bad reputation or not good at your job for other reasons.

Bookhead · Jun 10, 2022

I'd say nr would be worse off cause those set asides are coming out of your piece of the pie. Nr that want to hunt with an outfitter would probably be better off

Bookhead · Jun 10, 2022

I don't think the outfitters are going to end up liking the deal they make for themselves with set asides though myself

TinCup · Jun 10, 2022

I think what's lost on many people (though I believe Buzz gets it) is that Outfitters in Wyoming pay nothing, nada zero $00.00 for the inventory of big game at their disposal. They also fully monopolize the Wilderness areas at the detriment of the NR big game hunter.

Think about it like this...stroll into your local Safeway and shop for groceries. To create their inventory, Safeway purchases the merchandise for resale. You need some lettuce, beer, etc., so you pull out your wallet and pay Safeway. Safeway also "manages" their inventory with buying and stocking shelves

Now, consider the great Wyoming Outdoors as a "Safeway"...but "you", the taxpayer paid for the inventory and "your" Game and Fish department stocks the shelves. Mr. WYOGA comes strutting down the aisles - "think I'll take 4 trophy bulls, aww that's a heck of a bunch of nice bucks, I'll throw them in my cart....sheep? Awesome!?" Then, after filling his cart, Mr. WYOGA struts right by the checkout, waving and grinning and not stopping to pay. You, the taxpayer got legally shoplifted by Mr. WYOGA

I'm sure the few here that regale in the legend of the "noble" outfitter will scoff and make excuses for their favorite guide service but....it is what it is. If you were to shoplift Safeway, employees would tackle your azz before you cleared the door. Outfitters high five the G & F "stockboys" as the head past the checkout , pickpocket you and grin all the way out of your store and to the bank

WapitiBob · Jun 10, 2022

Bookhead said:
..... Nr that want to hunt with an outfitter would probably be better off

That's the whole point over the last several years.
wilderness law
trying to swap regular/special quotas
trying to convert special E/D/A draws to an outfitter draw

I'm surprised they didn't allow outfitted hunters to bypass the proposed wait period, guess I should be thankful for that one.

jims · Jun 10, 2022

I just listened to the first 1/2 hour of the last TF meeting. It was more or less about landowner plus transferable tags. Currently both resident and nonres landowner tags are not capped and are taken directly off the top of the limited pool of tags before any public draw takes place. All a landowner has to do is buy a chunk of land that qualifies and he bypasses horrible limited draw odds and is offered high demand tags each and every year. I can see the writing on the wall if tags are transferable and outfitters seek out wealthy individuals to buy up private land so they both benefit from transferable tags.

Again, these high demand landowner tags are unlimited in each unit and are taken off the top of the pile of tags prior to the drawing. Wyo residents certainly will lose out with transferable tags....every tag issued will be one less tag available in the public draw!

I certainly hope the TF and Wyo res wake up to the fact that the current landowner system is not designed to do what it was intended to do and landowner/outfitters on the task force are trying everything in their power to capitalize on every facet of this!

Obviously if it's ok for outfitters to take a chunk of tags away from nonres in the form of transferable and set-aside tags why not set aside outftter tags for Wyo res? The outfitters are well aware that there is a reasonable chunk of Wyo res that hire outfitters each and every year.

Plain and simple, the outfitters/landowners on the TF sure seem to be out of control and a lot of time is certainly spent in their court!

LivingTheDream · Jun 10, 2022

TinCup said:
I think what's lost on many people (though I believe Buzz gets it) is that Outfitters in Wyoming pay nothing, nada zero $00.00 for the inventory of big game at their disposal. They also fully monopolize the Wilderness areas at the detriment of the NR big game hunter.

Think about it like this...stroll into your local Safeway and shop for groceries. To create their inventory, Safeway purchases the merchandise for resale. You need some lettuce, beer, etc., so you pull out your wallet and pay Safeway. Safeway also "manages" their inventory with buying and stocking shelves

Now, consider the great Wyoming Outdoors as a "Safeway"...but "you", the taxpayer paid for the inventory and "your" Game and Fish department stocks the shelves. Mr. WYOGA comes strutting down the aisles - "think I'll take 4 trophy bulls, aww that's a heck of a bunch of nice bucks, I'll throw them in my cart....sheep? Awesome!?" Then, after filling his cart, Mr. WYOGA struts right by the checkout, waving and grinning and not stopping to pay. You, the taxpayer got legally shoplifted by Mr. WYOGA

I'm sure the few here that regale in the legend of the "noble" outfitter will scoff and make excuses for their favorite guide service but....it is what it is. If you were to shoplift Safeway, employees would tackle your azz before you cleared the door. Outfitters high five the G & F "stockboys" , pickpocket you and grin all the way to the bank

The issue with this analogy is that the produce and steaks Safeway is selling is subsidized by the federal government (ranching and farming), not to mention you are comparing services to products.

The outfitters are offering a service, not an actual animal (I know this will be argued). If I paid someone to go pick up my groceries, they aren't contributing to farming or ranching.

They buy a business license to do work in Wyoming. This really isn't the outfitters fault, it is more of the State of Wyoming not contributing to wildlife from the general fund. The hunter bought the license and contributed, he legally hired a business.

I say this as someone who hates the WYOGA, and thinks the set asides are outfitter welfare. If the outfitter offers a worth while service, they will be paid accordingly.

jims · Jun 10, 2022

Living the dream makes a good point. If tags are drawn the resident or nonres has the choice to either hire the better guides or go unguided.

Why set it up so that decision is made that favors those that can afford to hire an outfitter and take that opportunity away from hunters in the draw that have devoted years to applying and paying high pref pt fees.

I also agree that the better outfitters should have no problem signing up clients once tags are drawn with the current system that is in place.

TinCup · Jun 10, 2022

HOw'bout this? Outfitters pay the State for each animal harvested and they can surcharge their client. I don't have the chart in front of me but in poaching cases, a "trophy" animal is worth so much and is tacked on to the poachers penalty. Pay for what you take, WYOGA

Bookhead · Jun 10, 2022

TinCup said:
HOw'bout this? Outfitters pay the State for each animal harvested and they can surcharge their client. I don't have the chart in front of me but in poaching cases, a "trophy" animal is worth so much and is tacked on to the poachers penalty. Pay for what you take, WYOGA

There are allot of outfits that are not part of wyoga and that don't agree with their views

TinCup · Jun 11, 2022

LivingTheDream said:
The issue with this analogy is that the produce and steaks Safeway is selling is subsidized by the federal government (ranching and farming), not to mention you are comparing services to products.

The outfitters are offering a service, not an actual animal (I know this will be argued). If I paid someone to go pick up my groceries, they aren't contributing to farming or ranching.

They buy a business license to do work in Wyoming. This really isn't the outfitters fault, it is more of the State of Wyoming not contributing to wildlife from the general fund. The hunter bought the license and contributed, he legally hired a business.

I say this as someone who hates the WYOGA, and thinks the set asides are outfitter welfare. If the outfitter offers a worth while service, they will be paid accordingly.

Fair enough but have the outfitter pay for the inventory.

hossblur · Jun 13, 2022

TinCup said:
HOw'bout this? Outfitters pay the State for each animal harvested and they can surcharge their client. I don't have the chart in front of me but in poaching cases, a "trophy" animal is worth so much and is tacked on to the poachers penalty. Pay for what you take, WYOGA

IF there are a pile of set asides, let the outfitters compete in an auction for them. Highest bidder takes them, proceeds to F&G. Then the state gets paid for demand upfront.

What the outfitters want is price fixed set asides.