Ashby approved arrow weights for game
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CFMuley
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The fact that people put Ashby and that damn ranch fairy guy on a pedestal is amusing to me. Yes, they build setups that effectively kill animals, but I’ve never had issues with my 400-460 grain setups on everything from deer to bison. People love to overthink things, and make them more complicated than they need to be.
JakeH
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Well then why are they pushing it for compound hunters? That chart doesn't say only for traditional shooters. And there are a ton of people using their findings to push Ultra heavy setups that are completely unreasonable.
El Gringo
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I happen to be good friends with the RF. Everyone get’s twisted up about 800 grain arrows, but he, along with a lot of guys would tell you that if guys would just bump up a little (like 500 grains), flying perfect, with a broadhead that is structurally solid, the results would be much better.
IMO the stuff translates very well to treestand WT hunting, and for shooting really big stuff, but it’s not practical for western big game hunting, a lot of times.
IMO the stuff translates very well to treestand WT hunting, and for shooting really big stuff, but it’s not practical for western big game hunting, a lot of times.
JakeH
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That makes alot of sense, if your max range is 20 yards you can go as heavy as you want.
El Gringo
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He’s a pretty smart dude…. You could listen to a lot less intelligent influencers. There’s plenty out there
JakeH
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I will be honest I didn't even see they had chupacabra on there. That totally changes things and I'm all in with flinging rebar arrows, that's the only thing that would have a chance of taking down one of those beasts????
Yep! You're all set then.
Elkslayer2015
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So I have tried his program to a Tee. I have his single bevel broad heads 315 grains. My total weight on my arrow was 715.
So I shot 3 of my 410 grain arrows at 20/30/40 yards.
Then I shot 3 715 grain arrows at 20/30/40 yards.
The results was speed is everything. I got more penetration on my 410 grain arrows than on the 715 grain arrows.
410 arrows was 4" Deeper than the 715 at 20 yards
410 arrow was 3.75" deeper than the 715 at 30 yards
410 arrow was 4.25 deeper than the 715 at 40 yards I believe this was because the 715 was moving so much slower.
His formula probably works great with recurves but doesn't work with compounds.
So I shot 3 of my 410 grain arrows at 20/30/40 yards.
Then I shot 3 715 grain arrows at 20/30/40 yards.
The results was speed is everything. I got more penetration on my 410 grain arrows than on the 715 grain arrows.
410 arrows was 4" Deeper than the 715 at 20 yards
410 arrow was 3.75" deeper than the 715 at 30 yards
410 arrow was 4.25 deeper than the 715 at 40 yards I believe this was because the 715 was moving so much slower.
His formula probably works great with recurves but doesn't work with compounds.
El Gringo
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You shot Elk at all of those distances and were able to measure that? That’s amazing
JakeH
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It's not necessary your speed, but the KE.
I suggest going and looking up the tests Joel Maxfield is putting up on Facebook. He has tuned the bows so that the heavy set up and lite set up both shoot the same KE, the only difference is the heavy arrow is much slower. Penetration tests in multiple different mediums shows that at the same KE both arrows Penetration are almost equal.
He has also done tests showing how much farther the heavy arrows drop at different distances.
Some eye opening tests with modern equipment that completely busts the heavy arrow myth.
To maximize Penetration you need to find the weight/speed that maximizes your Kinetic Energy.
Elkslayer2015
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Elkslayer2015
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Your correct Jake KE is the key. the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed.
I will have to go check out Joel. Thanks
El Gringo
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I tend to believe this is the secret sauce, personally.
Also, perfect arrow flight, cut on contact, structurally sound broadheads are critical.
HntHrdr
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I shot lighter with a mech… killed the elk but did not like the penetration, then I went a little heavier didn’t love the trajectory , now I’m right around 500 with a cut on contract broadhead. Seems to be a sweet spot for my set up. There is wisdom for RF and Ashby, I’m not joining the 650 and up club anytime soon but they make some good points
El Gringo
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That’s what I’m tuning up for my Elk tag in Sept (a VERY good one too). I’m shooting a 300 Spine with stock inserts and a 200 Grain Single Bevel. Right around 500 and it gives me a lot of all sides. I expect a pass through without any issues.
For the Eastern guys or the Roosevelt Elk guys, where close up is the game, I wouldn’t hesitate to go heavier. You can absolutely split the shoulder on a Whitetail and pass through on Q to shots. That’s a big advantage. But…. You’re not shooting 80, reliably
JakeH
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What is your speed with your 500g setup? Give us your stats.
Long draw and high poundage guys can go heavier and keep the speed up.
El Gringo
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Exactly the same
JakeH
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I'm pulling 75lbs at 28.5 shooting a 410 grain arrow 310ish fps. Getting around 87.5 footpound/Kintec Energy.
They say for every 5 grains of added weight you lose 1.5 fps of speed.
If I was to bump up to 500 grain arrows I would to be shooting around 282fps and that would be 88.2 fp/KE I wouldbe gaining very little depending on if it actually ended up on the speed. But I am losing 27fps of speed to do it.
Personally I'm gonna keep my speed over an extra .7 of KE
I will say 500 isn't extreme though. If it works for you then that's all that matters.
Joe2Kool
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(Velocity X velocity X Arrow weight)/450,800 = Kinetic energy
Velocity in ft/sec
Wt in grains
KE in ft-pounds
Yes, I know. Engineer geek stuff.
270Whatelse
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Ranch Fairy is a joke. All he hunts is pigs over a feeder, were he is getting 15 yard shots. No need to go super heavy with a modern compound. Shooting a stick bow is a very different story
BackcountryRob
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I prefer a little extra weight upfront but nothing extreme. Agree with above, speeds of these modern bows were not taken into account by Ashby. Heavier usually results in more momentum but there is definitely a balance.
29" Draw - 68lbs draw weight.
Gold Tip Hunter Arrows with 50 Grain Inserts and 125 Grain Broadhead for a total hunting weight of 485 Grains.
29" Draw - 68lbs draw weight.
Gold Tip Hunter Arrows with 50 Grain Inserts and 125 Grain Broadhead for a total hunting weight of 485 Grains.
MountainSqwabler
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Shot and killed a few elk, including bulls with roughly 400 grain arrows and never not had a pass through. I like decent speed on my arrows, and that 400-450 area has proven to almost be a sweet spot for me. If I go after anything bigger like a moose then I may consider going up in weight some.
Beendare
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Ashby is one of the original archery influencers.
Some of his stuff on BH efficiency [mechanical advantage] was good...but his singe bevel and High FOC stuff is total snake oil.
He proved his EFOC theory using weighted soda straws and a rubber band sling shot- I chit you not, its still on Youtube. When it first came out years ago, the physics guys laughed him out of archery- his EFOC theory defied the laws of physics. Years later he resurfaced.
I would bet that Ashby and Tinkerbell have contributed to more missed game than any other advice on the internet.
Common sense guys- you don't need an 800g arrow to kill a deer. They prey on the guys shooting very light untuned arrows and Mech heads....when all they needed to do is bump up their arrow weight a little and tune their bow.
Still there are plenty of guys getting sucked in....It seems PT Barnum was right after all.
Some of his stuff on BH efficiency [mechanical advantage] was good...but his singe bevel and High FOC stuff is total snake oil.
He proved his EFOC theory using weighted soda straws and a rubber band sling shot- I chit you not, its still on Youtube. When it first came out years ago, the physics guys laughed him out of archery- his EFOC theory defied the laws of physics. Years later he resurfaced.
I would bet that Ashby and Tinkerbell have contributed to more missed game than any other advice on the internet.
Common sense guys- you don't need an 800g arrow to kill a deer. They prey on the guys shooting very light untuned arrows and Mech heads....when all they needed to do is bump up their arrow weight a little and tune their bow.
Still there are plenty of guys getting sucked in....It seems PT Barnum was right after all.
MountainSqwabler
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I agree on single bevels. They truly do ruin whatever they hit, and are Great at splitting bone. Just don't need a 600gr arrow for it to work well. I love the 450gr range. They still have a ton of speed and hit with great KE
Utah400Elk
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I have not calculated my KE but I know it’s high. I shoot 500 grn axis long range with 75 pound draw and 30 inch draw length. I believe I am right around 285-290 FPS with my set up. My arrows will shoot through a Rinehart 18 inch target. They stop but tip passes through. More than enough for anything I like to hunt.
JakeH
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90.16 to 93.35 foot pounds. Yep that is spitting them out there if your estimated speeds are accurate.
Utah400Elk
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It is. Speed from lab radar.
Beendare
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Many guys are complaining about the durability of single bevels….(thread on Rokslide now) no surprise, its a less supported edge.…thus the reason most knives have evolved as dbl bevel.
Ive seen evidence SB’s don’t penetrate as well as dbl bevel heads.…and many have done testing that double bevel splits bones…inc a cape buff the owner of The Bowsite shot decades ago.
These influencers market to guys shooting mech heads and untuned bows that are getting poor performance. Duh. Those guys assume they can screw a BH on and hunt- nope.
Be careful of these supposed experts. I’ve seen Ashby shoot his LB decades ago- Ha. Nice enough guy but no guru. A couple years back, Tinkerbell admited to not knowing how to tune a bow.
Thats Snake oil boys…right there with Bernie Madoff and Sam Bankman Fried.
Tune your bow, shoot a 430ish-500gr or so arrow and the critters will fall. I like a COC head but they all work.
Ive seen evidence SB’s don’t penetrate as well as dbl bevel heads.…and many have done testing that double bevel splits bones…inc a cape buff the owner of The Bowsite shot decades ago.
These influencers market to guys shooting mech heads and untuned bows that are getting poor performance. Duh. Those guys assume they can screw a BH on and hunt- nope.
Be careful of these supposed experts. I’ve seen Ashby shoot his LB decades ago- Ha. Nice enough guy but no guru. A couple years back, Tinkerbell admited to not knowing how to tune a bow.
Thats Snake oil boys…right there with Bernie Madoff and Sam Bankman Fried.
Tune your bow, shoot a 430ish-500gr or so arrow and the critters will fall. I like a COC head but they all work.
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scopenstalk
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I blame the social media influencers for making Ashby famous. Most guys have absolutely no reason to be shooting 600+ grain arrows. Cut on contact heads are fine but so are trocar tips and mechanicals. I would wager more guys wound crap because their form sucks and their bow isn’t tuned rather than because their arrow is insufficient. I guess that’s not the appealing and easy answer though.
MountainSqwabler
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Just had a good laugh. Ranch Fairy made an Instagram post the other day of a small little whitetail and a medium sized hog that someone shot with a 585 some grain arrow with a like.....12% FOC or some crap. He went on to tell a story about why he believes sooook heavily in heavy arrows. Long story short, he stated that after having a 3 +/- 410 grain arrows with 100gr mechanical broadhead BOUNCE OFF whitetails that he had shot at.......idk about you guys but I must have been mistaken when my 400 grain arrows blew through elk (including a bull)....dudes a joke just like heavy arrows. If you are shooting a 400-450gr set up with a good broadhead, it will kill if you hit the animal properly.
MountainSqwabler
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Gringo,
spot on about appropriate arrow weight depending on type of hunting. Although I don't tree stand hunt, I see where a heavy arrow works for those short distances. The bow is also much quieter with heavy arrow.
I hunt Idaho for elk and I moved from a 411gr arrow to a 500gr arrow a couple yrs ago. I shot a 6point broadside at 12 yrds and only got 15" of penetration using a muzzy 100gr broadhead. That always bothered me, because I was pulling 72lbs. Switched to 505gr arrow, and my bow got quieter, no more flyers when shooting groups and a noticeable difference in wind drift (now shooting .166 arrows). But most importantly, my confidence shooting has really improved. Sometimes trying to shoot a fast setup makes it very unforgiving. I wouldn't say a 650gr arrow is needed to hunt the west, but RF is only talking about optimum arrow flight to achieve optimum penetration. Yes, you can drive your diesel to your desk job, but you can also get there by car. But riding a pedal bike isn't optimal, unless you are really close.
roadrunner
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Just saw this thread as well. There are a few myths:
KE is everything. Not entirely true.
Speed is everything. Not necessarily.
The faster an object travels, the more rapid its deceleration. At longer distance, a faster moving object slows down more rapidly than a slower moving object. Once a heavier (more mass) object gets moving, it becomes more difficult to slow it down. Arrow KE is not conserved and can be lost into other forms of energy, sound being one of them. Momentum is conserved and has more input when it connects to the target (one input being speed at rhe arrow target interface). Physics 110
However, at normal bow shot ranges on large animals of 40 yds and under all that stuff above about faster objects decelerating more rapidly is irrelevant. Not so much for the heavier object, but not as important as some may believe.
What really drives arrow penetration is as perfect of a trajectory as possible with that arrow, a sharp durable broadhead, and the least amount of shaft deflection on impact.
MountainSqwabler
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I don't disagree with everything stated. No I do not believe that stupid heavy 600gr arrows are the best, nor do I think that super light 300-390gr arrows are the trick either. Speed isn't the key, neither is heavy. But for a 150lb whitetail or muledeer....a 500gr arrow to me is a little over board but if they shoot well through your bow then awesome.
My main thing against RF is that he's almost stating that a 400-480gr arrow is almost useless, especially when he says they bounced off animals lol..come on. I started elk archery hunting with a standard arrow set up...100gr head, nothing special. I'd bet those arrows MAYBE reached 400gr and the FOC was nothing to talk about. Blew through a bull at 10 yards, a cow (frontal shot, exited the rear thigh) and another cow at 25.
Now adding to that, I have shot arrows that maybe hit the 350 mark with am 85gr broadhead when I was antelope archery hunting. I smoked one doe at about 30 yards right on the shoulder and it almost blew through her. I hit both lungs and the arrow bedded into the opposing shoulder blade. I do believe that if I would have had a bit heavier arrow It would have passed right through. Arrow weight should mirror the animal you're hunting. Whitetail or deer or antelope...I believe a 400gr arrow with 100gr on the front will absolutely destroy them. Elk and above and hunters should start going up, but 600gr to me is just ridiculous.
My main thing against RF is that he's almost stating that a 400-480gr arrow is almost useless, especially when he says they bounced off animals lol..come on. I started elk archery hunting with a standard arrow set up...100gr head, nothing special. I'd bet those arrows MAYBE reached 400gr and the FOC was nothing to talk about. Blew through a bull at 10 yards, a cow (frontal shot, exited the rear thigh) and another cow at 25.
Now adding to that, I have shot arrows that maybe hit the 350 mark with am 85gr broadhead when I was antelope archery hunting. I smoked one doe at about 30 yards right on the shoulder and it almost blew through her. I hit both lungs and the arrow bedded into the opposing shoulder blade. I do believe that if I would have had a bit heavier arrow It would have passed right through. Arrow weight should mirror the animal you're hunting. Whitetail or deer or antelope...I believe a 400gr arrow with 100gr on the front will absolutely destroy them. Elk and above and hunters should start going up, but 600gr to me is just ridiculous.
roadrunner
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On my old setup, a 405 gr arrow with 100 gr Wac'em, Slick Trick, VPA, and Montec have all zipped through elk at 25 - 35 yds. "Muzzle" velocity was 295 fps. 50 gr brass insert gave a 14% FOC.
An even older setup was a 435 gr arrow shooting a 100 gr Wac'em with a velocity of 265 fps zipped through an elk at 55 yds.
Broadhead and shot placement are key. Hitting a heavy shoulder bone may not have killed the animal like it should.
Beendare
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Common sense doesn’t make you famous….crazy BS does..like EFOC, Massive arrow weight and Single bevels.
Preaching good shooting form and tuning for perfect arrow flight won’t make you famous…but it should.
For the last 2 1/2 years I was hunting with a 47# recurve, 553g arrow. 10 of 12 critters were complete arrow in the ground on the other side pass thrus….2 hit the off side shoulder. Pigs, deer, javelina and an 800# moose….the moose gave me another shot at 30y….with the second arrow 4” from the first and the fletch held up on the off side ribs- so a pass through there too.
A guy can get some amazing results with perfect arrow flight and a very efficient BH. Those 2 blade BHs go through them so quick most critters don’t know they have been hit.
Preaching good shooting form and tuning for perfect arrow flight won’t make you famous…but it should.
For the last 2 1/2 years I was hunting with a 47# recurve, 553g arrow. 10 of 12 critters were complete arrow in the ground on the other side pass thrus….2 hit the off side shoulder. Pigs, deer, javelina and an 800# moose….the moose gave me another shot at 30y….with the second arrow 4” from the first and the fletch held up on the off side ribs- so a pass through there too.
A guy can get some amazing results with perfect arrow flight and a very efficient BH. Those 2 blade BHs go through them so quick most critters don’t know they have been hit.
