Spike hunts

Kinda strange how all the LE elk units are bull heavy, some like Beaver are 1:1 ratios, yet "we are killing too many spike bulls, future crop"?

The problem is there aren't enough bulls getting harvested, regardless of age class.....bulls are dying of old age.

What's the solution?
Harvest more older age class bulls and destroy the quality and only have 5.5 year old bulls to wait 25 years for?
Or
Continue keeping bull numbers down by harvesting the young spike bulls that have a naturally lower survival rate in winter than 2-4 year old raghorns?
 
The spike hunts can work on some units and are detrimental to others. They at the very least need to cap some units with a certain number of spike tags.

Some units don't have issues like the Wasatch keep those as unlimited but make people pick a unit.

I kind of have to agree with Slam post #10.
The problem is how do you selectively kill bulls?
Two words for you. "Archery Hunts" simple fact that the archery hunters are not as picky due to the fact that it's so much harder to kill. They could easily double or triple the numbers, of archery hunters. Might take some season changes but you could have 3 separate 2 week seasons and increase hunter numbers and kills without drastically affecting the top end bulls. Hell do a November archery hunt as well.
 
Not every spike is going to grow up to be a desirable target for someone who waited 20 plus years to draw. Some need to be harvested, but I think this needs to vary by unit. Every unit has a pile of in between bulls that will never be targeted, which throws overall population and the bull to cow ratio out of whack. Think Beaver. How many sh!t bulls do we need?
 
The spike hunts can work on some units and are detrimental to others. They at the very least need to cap some units with a certain number of spike tags.

Some units don't have issues like the Wasatch keep those as unlimited but make people pick a unit.


Two words for you. "Archery Hunts" simple fact that the archery hunters are not as picky due to the fact that it's so much harder to kill. They could easily double or triple the numbers, of archery hunters. Might take some season changes but you could have 3 separate 2 week seasons and increase hunter numbers and kills without drastically affecting the top end bulls. Hell do a November archery hunt as well.
True.
But on your best day that is not even close to happening.
 
Kinda strange how all the LE elk units are bull heavy, some like Beaver are 1:1 ratios, yet "we are killing too many spike bulls, future crop"?

The problem is there aren't enough bulls getting harvested, regardless of age class.....bulls are dying of old age.

What's the solution?
Harvest more older age class bulls and destroy the quality and only have 5.5 year old bulls to wait 25 years for?
Or
Continue keeping bull numbers down by harvesting the young spike bulls that have a naturally lower survival rate in winter than 2-4 year old raghorns?
Slam the Monroe was shut down to spike hunting for 5 years. They just opened it back up 2 years ago. The DWR claim it didn’t change the age objective on the Monroe well then where did the bulls go?

Where is the beaver located just across the road I think this is why the beaver is a 1 to 1 ratio.
This could very well be the reason why beaver went 1 to 1 ratio.
Spike hunting is not allowing us to issue more tags I understand we don’t want it over populated but I feel there is some room for more bulls.
 
I think the multi season is here to stay.
Especially with the tag being worth $200.00.
Multi tags are definitely here to stay. Just watch the latest central RAC meeting from last week. That Brock azzhat couldn’t keep the smile off his face when talking about the revenue (and potential revenue with price increases) that they brought in. The way he was talking about it seemed as though he’s getting a cut of it somewhere down the road under the table. I’ve never seen someone so giddy with excitement when talking about funds that done even exist yet. The other guys didn’t really get excited about it, but he sure did… definitely makes you wonder…. ?
 
I think some Spike tags should be Unit Specific with a limited amount of First Come First Served type OTC tags.



Say; San Juan, Boulder, Beaver, Pahvant and South Cache.



Robb
 
Not every spike is going to grow up to be a desirable target for someone who waited 20 plus years to draw. Some need to be harvested, but I think this needs to vary by unit. Every unit has a pile of in between bulls that will never be targeted, which throws overall population and the bull to cow ratio out of whack. Think Beaver. How many sh!t bulls do we need?
Exactly my point
 
Slam the Monroe was shut down to spike hunting for 5 years. They just opened it back up 2 years ago. The DWR claim it didn’t change the age objective on the Monroe well then where did the bulls go?

Where is the beaver located just across the road I think this is why the beaver is a 1 to 1 ratio.
This could very well be the reason why beaver went 1 to 1 ratio.
Spike hunting is not allowing us to issue more tags I understand we don’t want it over populated but I feel there is some room for more bulls.
I'm not sure what caused the Monroe phenomenon, that is a strange ordeal. It's like those elk just all the sudden decided to relocate.
Aside from that particular unit, most our units are bull heavy.

They have decimated the cows on the Strawberry area of the Wasatch several years ago, therefore it's actually pretty tough finding spike bulls, but there are still a lot of useless bulls there.

If we offer more LE tags, the top end gets skimmed because the bulk of hunters aren't going to kill a 280" bull with 25 years invested.

It's a known fact that spike bulls are targeted because their survival rate in winter is lower than branch antlers bulls due to shear body size.

There are a lot of spikes that make it through the hunting seasons to carry over.

The issue is there are so many bulls in the middle that don't get touched.

Finding a balance is a near impossible task.
 
I kind of have to agree with Slam post #10.
The problem is how do you selectively kill bulls?
I can't even think of a solution that would appease the hunters and help the issue.

Issuing enough LE tags to knock bull numbers down will hurt the quality and we will be left with 300" average bull hunts.

Lowering rifle tags and increasing archery and or muzzleloader would allow for opportunity and might save some older bulls as @JakeH suggested.

It's a tough situation and not everyone will be satisfied regardless.
 
It would be nice to have a quotas in LE units of tag numbers to help spread the amount of hunters out. Hopefully the state would be able to change the numbers from now and again. Lol they will even put it in a draw to collect their 10$ fees and that alone will make them smile again of gaining more of our monies on fees.

Just not sure on a solution to make everyone happy, and or if their is a single solution that could even work on all the LE units as the country from them are different and shouldn’t be treated as if they are all one.
 
Very few bulls even have what it takes to make a 380+ bull.
I don't know any percentages or stats on that but I'm sure it's around 10% or 1 in 10 at best.

So we want to save all these spike bulls, hundreds of them on every unit, year after year compounding and growing more bulls so that a chance 10% will reach social media quality.

Makes perfect sense ?
 
I wish they would do managment bull hunts, 5 point or less. And I love spike hunts. Tastey elk meat and fun times in the mountains. I like hunting mature animals like everyone else but once every 20 years is pretty much a pointless hunt to even think about.
 
I wish they would do managment bull hunts, 5 point or less. And I love spike hunts. Tastey elk meat and fun times in the mountains. I like hunting mature animals like everyone else but once every 20 years is pretty much a pointless hunt to even think about.
At least with a minimum quota
 
It’s always mind blowing to see how many guys are willing to pizz away any opportunities they currently have for a very big “maybe” situation.

Utah is never going to get rid of their precious LE elk hunt. But they’d happily pull the OTC spike hunts if you let them, because guys are hoping that will allow more big bull tags in the future. We have a good thing now. Don’t advocate to give up what we have for a giant ‘maybe’. At least we have the option to hunt elk every year now if we want to. Under the idea many are suggesting, that won’t be the case. You could go 10+ years before you have any kind of bull elk tag in your pocket. Is that really a better scenario than we have now? ?
 
May as well make limited entry elk a once in a lifetime. That's basically what they have become. The elk survey that my wife got last week from the DWR, IIRC, said someone beginning with 0 points and applying for the best elk unit would take 98 years to be guaranteed a tag.
 
Slam
What do you think of 4 point or less on the LE units. Rumor mill says the Elk committee where talking about this.
I guess this would thin out the bad genetics or something. Have you herd anything on this?
 
The spike hunts in southern Utah, used to be fun hunts. The problem now is, the DWR is selling spike tags, but there are hardly any spikes left. The DWR has to stay in quota, so they have been killing 400 cows and 50 bulls a year on some of these units. the ratio has gotten down to 1 bull to 1 cow, and in many areas, I would say 3 bulls to 1 cow. The cow populations have decreased to the point where there are no longer any cows to have calves to make spikes, and the antlerless hunters are killing part of next years spikes as calves. I think you can have spike hunts on limited entry units, but to do this, you need to have lots of cows in the unit. The best scenario would be to figure up how to increase the quotas for number of elk the DWR can have in a unit. The Beaver unit has to crash as far as big bulls go soon. There is no recruitment of bulls happening right now. The southwest desert unit crashed years ago. It is all due to killing to many cows.
 
Slam
What do you think of 4 point or less on the LE units. Rumor mill says the Elk committee where talking about this.
I guess this would thin out the bad genetics or something. Have you herd anything on this?
I have heard it as a thought, but not as a voted proposal.

We've got to harvest more bulls on most units, that's a fact.
Finding a balance won't come without sacrifice.
 
The spike hunts in southern Utah, used to be fun hunts. The problem now is, the DWR is selling spike tags, but there are hardly any spikes left. The DWR has to stay in quota, so they have been killing 400 cows and 50 bulls a year on some of these units. the ratio has gotten down to 1 bull to 1 cow, and in many areas, I would say 3 bulls to 1 cow. The cow populations have decreased to the point where there are no longer any cows to have calves to make spikes, and the antlerless hunters are killing part of next years spikes as calves. I think you can have spike hunts on limited entry units, but to do this, you need to have lots of cows in the unit. The best scenario would be to figure up how to increase the quotas for number of elk the DWR can have in a unit. The Beaver unit has to crash as far as big bulls go soon. There is no recruitment of bulls happening right now. The southwest desert unit crashed years ago. It is all due to killing to many cows.
Exactly what has happened on the biggest part of the Wasatch.
Way too many cows killed, spike crop is weak, but branch antler "carryover" bulls from several years is heavy with non desired bulls.
 
The spike hunts in southern Utah, used to be fun hunts. The problem now is, the DWR is selling spike tags, but there are hardly any spikes left. The DWR has to stay in quota, so they have been killing 400 cows and 50 bulls a year on some of these units. the ratio has gotten down to 1 bull to 1 cow, and in many areas, I would say 3 bulls to 1 cow. The cow populations have decreased to the point where there are no longer any cows to have calves to make spikes, and the antlerless hunters are killing part of next years spikes as calves. I think you can have spike hunts on limited entry units, but to do this, you need to have lots of cows in the unit. The best scenario would be to figure up how to increase the quotas for number of elk the DWR can have in a unit. The Beaver unit has to crash as far as big bulls go soon. There is no recruitment of bulls happening right now. The southwest desert unit crashed years ago. It is all due to killing to many cows.
Good point!
I guess that's one way to get a high bull to cow ratio. Just kill off the cows year after year after year without seeing what's happening.

Zeke
 
The spike hunts in southern Utah, used to be fun hunts. The problem now is, the DWR is selling spike tags, but there are hardly any spikes left. The DWR has to stay in quota, so they have been killing 400 cows and 50 bulls a year on some of these units. the ratio has gotten down to 1 bull to 1 cow, and in many areas, I would say 3 bulls to 1 cow. The cow populations have decreased to the point where there are no longer any cows to have calves to make spikes, and the antlerless hunters are killing part of next years spikes as calves. I think you can have spike hunts on limited entry units, but to do this, you need to have lots of cows in the unit. The best scenario would be to figure up how to increase the quotas for number of elk the DWR can have in a unit.

The Beaver unit has to crash as far as big bulls go soon. There is no recruitment of bulls happening right now. The southwest desert unit crashed years ago. It is all due to killing to many cows.

The bookcliffs unit crashed as well, last really good year was 2015 or so. It is Pitiful now compared to what it was just 7 years ago.

I won't say that the DWR cow hunts was the only reason as there are multiple issues hitting the books herd all at once but I guarantee it hasn't helped.

That said there has definitely been a crazy fast crash, and I hope these other top end units do not see a similar situation.
 
The bookcliffs unit crashed as well, last really good year was 2015 or so. It is Pitiful now compared to what it was just 7 years ago.

I won't say that the DWR cow hunts was the only reason as there are multiple issues hitting the books herd all at once but I guarantee it hasn't helped.

That said there has definitely been a crazy fast crash, and I hope these other top end units do not see a similar situation.
I was told by a biologist that something is causing the cows to abort their calves but they can't figure out why.
There is very little recruitment happening.
So yes, killing spikes removed too many bulls, but cow crops aren't there in general.

Something weird going on out there.
 
I was told by a biologist that something is causing the cows to abort their calves but they can't figure out why.
There is very little recruitment happening.
So yes, killing spikes removed too many bulls, but cow crops aren't there in general.

Something weird going on out there.
I heard the same thing
I vote split the unit up. Use seep ridge road as a boundary.
Anything east of the road any bull any thing west LE.
It might come back but it’s not looking good.
When you have cows way over there prime they will not produce.
I think one cow was 20 + years old
 
Sorry Slamdunk, I haven’t been watching elk or mule deer numbers for the last 7 or 8 years but I’ll never believe anything weird is going on. However I am certainly not surprised they have told you, they can’t figure it out.

Once again…….. these are our so called professionals, with a history of over a hundred years of responsibility under their belts and the best they can do is tell you they can’t figure it out.

I do believe they can’t figure it out…….. dang right I can. Management by accident is the status quo…….. don’t you think……. by now.
 
Sorry Slamdunk, I haven’t been watching elk or mule deer numbers for the last 7 or 8 years but I’ll never believe anything weird is going on. However I am certainly not surprised they have told you, they can’t figure it out.

Once again…….. these are our so called professionals, with a history of over a hundred years of responsibility under their belts and the best they can do is tell you they can’t figure it out.

I do believe they can’t figure it out…….. dang right I can. Management by accident is the status quo…….. don’t you think……. by now.
I can't argue that one, but hopefully they've got something figured out by now.
 
The problem is too many think we need to manage for 180+ bucks and 380+ bulls with total disregard to anything else.


But on the flip side, they will hint GS, open bull,/spike yearly. They think the other guy should stay home to accomplish trophy herds.


All these arguments end if the state would simply go GS or LE, not both.

Let the trophy guys literally sit home and not hunt for a decade or two for that one chance at a "trophy". If they truly believe what they say, it will be no problem. Helps out with GS creep and elk tag demand, and slows creep on LE.
 
I would love to give you some locations but last year when we were hunting spikes they were few and far in between in the areas that we had been and were looking.

But I do know of a couple of good locations if they are there. I have a spike tag and would love a handout if anyone has one too. Feel free to PM me! ?(y)(y)
 
When Spikes & Cows Are Hunted To Death It Isn't To F'N Hard To Figure Out!

Hunting & Pressuring Pregnant Cows in to December & January & Wondering What Is Happening?

UN-F'N-REAL!

You Don't Need To Be a Biologist To Figure That Out!

COMMON F'N SENSE Might Help Though!

Then Somebody Says:

Must Be Something Happening?

NO SSHITT SHIRLOCK!



I heard the same thing
I vote split the unit up. Use seep ridge road as a boundary.
Anything east of the road any bull any thing west LE.
It might come back but it’s not looking good.
When you have cows way over there prime they will not produce.
I think one cow was 20 + years old
 
When Spikes & Cows Are Hunted To Death It Isn't To F'N Hard To Figure Out!

Hunting & Pressuring Pregnant Cows in to December & January & Wondering What Is Happening?

UN-F'N-REAL!

You Don't Need To Be a Biologist To Figure That Out!

COMMON F'N SENSE Might Help Though!

Then Somebody Says:

Must Be Something Happening?

NO SSHITT SHIRLOCK!
Do me a favor why don’t you see how many cow tags they offer out there in the books
Then look at the dates on those hunts.

Then get back to me.
 
Kinda strange how all the LE elk units are bull heavy, some like Beaver are 1:1 ratios, yet "we are killing too many spike bulls, future crop"?

The problem is there aren't enough bulls getting harvested, regardless of age class.....bulls are dying of old age.

What's the solution?
Harvest more older age class bulls and destroy the quality and only have 5.5 year old bulls to wait 25 years for?
Or
Continue keeping bull numbers down by harvesting the young spike bulls that have a naturally lower survival rate in winter than 2-4 year old raghorns?
My solution is to give more LE bull tags for all weapons. Move Archery a little more into the rut, keep muzzleloader in the rut, move LE rifle hunts to mid Oct and Nov only. Reduce spike tags, and don't put the spike hunts during the LE bull hunts.

This would help point creep, and result in some better bulls being taken, but I don't believe we should be managing for 9 year old bulls just for auction tag holders and their teams of stalkers.
 
When You Hunt a Unit/Units To Death!

What Do You End Up With in The End?

Anthro!

Book Cliffs!

Get Back With Me With Any Of Your BS Excuses!

Do me a favor why don’t you see how many cow tags they offer out there in the books
Then look at the dates on those hunts.

Then get back to me.
 
When You Hunt a Unit/Units To Death!

What Do You End Up With in The End?

Anthro!

Book Cliffs!

Get Back With Me With Any Of Your BS Excuses!
Well I never claimed to be a Biologist. But I do know when anything reaches past there prime they won't produce. So how do you get rid of those older age class cows? come on SHIRLOCK!

They are not giving out enough cow tags. YES NOT ENOUGH.
They where so focus on getting to herd objective, They missed one key thing. Keeping the Cow age class at breeding potential.

Yes I know the spike hunt has hurt that unit. I know there is too many animals on the landscape.

The worst thing they could of done is Pave Seep ridge all the way to the Divide. too many roads out there period.

As far as Anthro goes I don't care it should of been turned into a GS unit. But instead $$ and Points creep caused it to get turned into a HAMS hunt.

Does that sound like BS excuses.
 
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For those of you thinking spike hunts are going anywhere, go watch the current round of RACs that were held last week and this week. There’s a lot of money that comes from that hunt, and an added bonus with multi season tags, that the DWR really enjoys collecting on. General elk hunts in utah are very important to hunters and the DWR. That Brock clown on the central RAC made that very clear when discussing the proposed new tag fees for multi season tags.

It’s always interesting to see people complain about spike hunts and how it really hurts or impacts elk numbers on LE units. Last I checked, there isn’t a shortage of bulls in most units… those were once spikes that made it through the hunts. It’s also interesting to see people mad about the lack of hunting general/OTC opportunities for hunters, but also be the first ones to suggest getting rid of those few same types of hunts that we still have.

Hunters are the first ones willing to cut their own throat, usually for the benefit of people who can afford to pay to play on any kind of hunt they want every year when they can jump to the front of the tag wait line by writing a check to a land owner or outfitter selling tags. Everyone wants to fight these days. How about we fight to keep what we still have. Not be the first to offer to give up the few hunts most of us can still participate in every year.
 
Well I never claimed to be a Biologist. But I do know when anything reaches past there prime they won't produce. So how do you get rid of those older age class cows? come on SHIRLOCK!

They are not giving out enough cow tags. YES NOT ENOUGH.
They where so focus on getting to herd objective, They missed one key thing. Keeping the Cow age class at breeding potential.

Yes I know the spike hunt has hurt that unit. I know there is too many animals on the landscape.

The worst thing they could of done is Pave Seep ridge all the way to the Divide. too many roads out there period.

As far as Anthro goes I don't care it should of been turned into a GS unit. But instead $$ and Points creep caused it to get turned into a HAMS hunt.

Does that sound like BS excuses.
One major issue with those stinking cow hunts is people aren't selective nor have the knowledge to do so.

A cow elk is a cow elk to 99% of the hunters.

Now the Division is faced with a problem.

The only clear solution to the cow issue i see is by having some type of "selective harvest" done by people who know the difference between a fertile cow and an old dry hay burner.

Anthro-
They made that unit a HAMS to save animals through low success rates while still providing opportunity.
Going GS would probably wipe it completely out.
I hope it comes back around in the future.
 
For those of you thinking spike hunts are going anywhere, go watch the current round of RACs that were held last week and this week. There’s a lot of money that comes from that hunt, and an added bonus with multi season tags, that the DWR really enjoys collecting on. General elk hunts in utah are very important to hunters and the DWR. That Brock clown on the central RAC made that very clear when discussing the proposed new tag fees for multi season tags.

It’s always interesting to see people complain about spike hunts and how it really hurts or impacts elk numbers on LE units. Last I checked, there isn’t a shortage of bulls in most units… those were once spikes that made it through the hunts. It’s also interesting to see people mad about the lack of hunting general/OTC opportunities for hunters, but also be the first ones to suggest getting rid of those few same types of hunts that we still have.

Hunters are the first ones willing to cut their own throat, usually for the benefit of people who can afford to pay to play on any kind of hunt they want every year when they can jump to the front of the tag wait line by writing a check to a land owner or outfitter selling tags. Everyone wants to fight these days. How about we fight to keep what we still have. Not be the first to offer to give up the few hunts most of us can still participate in every year.
I have been on 20 of the LE units in this state some can handle spike Hunting and some can't. Me and Elk was referring to the book cliffs.

The Book cliff's is one of them. there is a road every where out there it is easy accesses to any animal. Slam knows what where talking about.

I don't have a problem with spike hunting as long as there is a mandatory harvest survey. Nobody knows how many spikes are being harvested.
 
Anthro-
They made that unit a HAMS to save animals through low success rates while still providing opportunity.
Going GS would probably wipe it completely out.
I hope it comes back around in the future.
Slam I get it it's a favorite area for you and others.
But the biologist provided feed back on it and the recommended they turn it into GS and 4 other units.

Sorry the biological reason for getting rid of those units was because of low numbers of elk.
So it made sense to turn them into GS.

The board turned it into a Hams hunt. 3 or 4 of the 5 RACS voted for it to be GS.
This was personal feeling decision $$ and points creep.

30 dam LE units in this state and 70% of our Elk population is on those units.
They only offer around 2,800 LE tags with 56,000 applicant's. Can this be fixed No.
So lets work on something we can Fix GS any bull or turn the whole state into LE.


One major issue with those stinking cow hunts is people aren't selective nor have the knowledge to do so.
Absolutely
Everyone harvests a yearling or a two year old calf.
 
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Slam I get it it's a favorite area for you and others.
But the biologist provided feed back on it and the recommended they turn it into GS and 4 other units.

Sorry the biological reason for getting rid of those units was because of low numbers of elk.
So it made sense to turn them into GS.

The board turned it into a Hams hunt. 3 or 4 of the 5 RACS voted for it to be GS.
This was personal feeling decision $$ and points creep.

30 dam LE units in this state and 70% of our Elk population is on those units.
They only offer around 2,800 LE tags with 56,000 applicant's. Can this be fixed No.
So lets work on something we can Fix GS any bull or turn the whole state into LE.



Absolutely
Everyone harvests a yearling or a two year old calf.
I've actually never stepped foot on Anthro ?
 
At one time years ago the anthro unit was getting up to be one of the best LE units in the state with 350 class bulls being common and 380+ bulls doable if you knew the unit.. then the DWR started giving in to the special interest groups ie ranchers both cattle men and sheep men and the more the DWR Gave in the more the ranchers wanted and what the ranchers wanted was no elk period...Here's an example some years ago a few good sized herds of elk moved in on some private ranches and yes they were doing some damage and the ranchers complained..now keep in mind these are the same ranchers that were getting private land bull vouchers for the whole unit and selling them for really big money..so the DWR came up with a great management plan..this was during the end of November and they decided to contact all the high point holders and do a management hunt this was when most of the bulls were in their bachelor herds it was mass slaughter.. Most of the top end bulls in the northern end of the unit were killed off including alot of the 300-320 class bulls..then the cow hunts got increased and they ran from late October into January and then the spike hunts this was the beginning of the end of a good elk unit...ok my rant is over..just remember sometimes our DWR has weird ways of managing our wildlife and big money and politics don't always work with wildlife management
 
Hey Yote!

How Bout The Year They Called Hunters & Did a December SLAUGHTER On Big Bulls?

Remember That?

WAFJ!



At one time years ago the anthro unit was getting up to be one of the best LE units in the state with 350 class bulls being common and 380+ bulls doable if you knew the unit.. then the DWR started giving in to the special interest groups ie ranchers both cattle men and sheep men and the more the DWR Gave in the more the ranchers wanted and what the ranchers wanted was no elk period...Here's an example some years ago a few good sized herds of elk moved in on some private ranches and yes they were doing some damage and the ranchers complained..now keep in mind these are the same ranchers that were getting private land bull vouchers for the whole unit and selling them for really big money..so the DWR came up with a great management plan..this was during the end of November and they decided to contact all the high point holders and do a management hunt this was when most of the bulls were in their bachelor herds it was mass slaughter.. Most of the top end bulls in the northern end of the unit were killed off including alot of the 300-320 class bulls..then the cow hunts got increased and they ran from late October into January and then the spike hunts this was the beginning of the end of a good elk unit...ok my rant is over..just remember sometimes our DWR has weird ways of managing our wildlife and big money and politics don't always work with wildlife management
 
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