WY NR's special/random changes...comment now

BuzzH

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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This post is for the NR hunters mostly, but I'll be opposing moving the tag split between special and random to 50-50, currently there is 60% regular fee, 40% special fee.

Time for NR's to comment, single question on the public input link.

sites.google.com

Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce - Public Input

Submit comments for the Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce below. Public comment provided to the taskforce for consideration prior to each meeting can be found on the "Meeting Materials" page. Comments received by 5 p.m. MST on November 7, 2022 will be provided to the Taskforce for the November 18, 2022
sites.google.com sites.google.com

Some useful talking points:

1. The NR youth prices ONLY apply to the regular fee, NR youth that want to participate in the special draw pay the same prices. This will limit NR youth by another 10% of available tags.

2. With the fee increase that will be passed, point creep will explode, be worse with the splits going to 50-50.

3. Outfitters already got their way with the fee increases, enough is enough.

Be tactful, but firm in opposing the tag splits and ask to leave them as is.
 
Hard to find the actual recommendations on the site- is this for elk only? No change to deer and antelope being considered?
 
Thanks for bringing this up. Hard to justify the costs of hunting out of state. I really enjoy the youth antelope in Wyoming, I hope we can still draw regular youth tags every few years.
 
Will comment for sure...as everyone should.
Thanks Buzz!

Done!

Super easy so all you NR boobs (of which I'm one of them) get on it please

Zeke
 
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I kind of like the better odds special should receive.

And they're going to do it anyway this is just a courtesy call. the state will make more money with more special tags = more special tags.

Again putting the turd in the outfitters pocket. Who took the first shot ? residents cutting the allocation in half or the outfitters wanting to raise prices ? they're playing defense not going on the offensive. I'd do the same.
 
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OK, blame my computing disabilities, but it asks me to log in to comment. Then it takes me to some Google login page. Can I vote if I don't have a Google account? Or do I automatically have one and don't know it?
 
Curious why folks would be against this? It seems the original intent of the special tag was to raise odds for hunters and raise revenue for WY for those who are willing to pay more. The original split and the original price didn't really do that at least in recent years. It seems WY realizes that a price increase and a 50/50 split will get it back to what they intended in the first place. I understand if a NR who does not want to pay for a special tag would be against it, but I don't understand how anyone else would.
 
Beings how the outfitters ran the same bill in 2019 and 2020 to flip 60-40 in 2019 and then 50-50 in 2020...I'll let you guess who fired the first shot.

Well, that and the outfitters passing the tiered licenses from the start.

But, by all means keep cheerleading for the poor downtrodden outfitters.
 
elkocd said:
Curious why folks would be against this? It seems the original intent of the special tag was to raise odds for hunters and raise revenue for WY for those who are willing to pay more. The original split and the original price didn't really do that at least in recent years. It seems WY realizes that a price increase and a 50/50 split will get it back to what they intended in the first place. I understand if a NR who does not want to pay for a special tag would be against it, but I don't understand how anyone else would.
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The GF doesn't lobby on this stuff, they can't. All of it is outfitter driven for clients.

Same as the wilderness guide law, no different.

As to reasons why some would be opposed read my OP...
 
I’m on the fence on this one? @jims whats your thought on this? You’re being scary silent on this:…
 
BuzzH said:
The GF doesn't lobby on this stuff, they can't. All of it is outfitter driven for clients.

Same as the wilderness guide law, no different.

As to reasons why some would be opposed read my OP...
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The wilderness rule certainly only benefits outfitters. A change to more specials would benefit them but would also benefit DIY hunters like me who shell out for specials anyway. I get the reasons against the change (good rationale). I kinda think the fee change alone is enough- doing both at the same time might be a bit much.
 
I'm always in favor of things that help the Average Joe Hunter. My take on this is that special priced tags are going to be mighty expensive for a nonres father and son/daughter that for example want to apply and draw 2 elk tags together in the special draw....especially if prices of tags, pref pts, and other fees increase. My guess is that regular tag draw odds may decrease while special may increase. That is what it was designed to do in the first place but would be designed in favor of those with higher incomes. With that in mind I would vote no.

Obviously outfitters love it because more of their wealthy clients could possibly draw tags. I'm willing to save all year for tags that potentially would offer better draw odds. If I wanted to be selfish I would vote yes for more special tags.

A higher % of nonres tags offered in the special draw means more $ for the WG&F. I'm all in favor of contributing more $ to the WG&F....especially if it improves habitat and wildlife management.

Either way I vote I would likely be called a selfish fool by Wyo res on this website.
 
Okay, are you saying it was the outfitters who started the push to cut the NR quota to 10% ? just a simple yes or no will suffice.

If I have this wrong I want to know.
 
Togwotee said:
Okay, are you saying it was the outfitters who started the push to cut the NR quota to 10% ? just a simple yes or no will suffice.

If I have this wrong I want to know.
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Sy made a deal...he supported and was a yes vote on changing the big 5 to 90-10.

Its on record and you can watch him vote.

He would support 90-10 for deer, elk and pronghorn if he could get 5% of the total NR tags as an outfitter set aside...he tried it.
 
Cheatgrass is already emerged from fall moisture and doing very well in many corners of Wyoming, Colorado and Utah where I’ve spent time the past couple weeks. Yep, we sprayed 433 acres of cheatgrass on critical winter range yesterday via helicopter so I’ve been busy.

4E2B84C0-042F-4D14-A742-6EA8BDBF8EEC.jpeg
 
I didn't ask if the outfitters made a deal, I asked if they were the ones who pushed to cut the NR allocation in half ?

It seems hard to imagine WYOGA had a change of heart overnight and decided to do a 180 from defending the 80/20 to wanting 90/10.

Defeating the latest 90/10 allocation bill in the Wyoming Legislature - Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association

The Wyoming Outfitters & Guides Association (WYOGA) recently celebrated its 60th Anniversary at their annual General Membership Convention in Casper, April 4th through the 6th, 2019.
wyoga.org wyoga.org

Let's be honest. the outfitters did what any business would do to survive, but they're not the ones who upset the apple cart that would be you guys.
 
Togwotee said:
I didn't ask if the outfitters made a deal, I asked if they were the ones who pushed to cut the NR allocation in half ?

It seems hard to imagine WYOGA had a change of heart overnight and decided to do a 180 from defending the 80/20 to wanting 90/10.

Let's be honest. the outfitters did what any business would do to survive, but they're not the ones who upset the apple cart that would be you guys.
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What's that? Ask for welfare?

Sy realized that his grandkids wouldn't be drawing the big 5 without more tags in the pool for Residents.

That was the change of heart, which surprised me since he wanted to drag me out in the parking lot at a meeting in Casper when I told a fellow outfitter friend of his I hoped his kids never drew moose and sheep while we were passionately discussing 90-10.

In the end, I guess he knew I was right which probably made him angry enough to want to go to the parking lot. He should have just agreed with me then, it would have saved his blood pressure. I guess it finally "clicked" that the only way to increase Resident odds is to give Residents more tags to draw. Pretty simple and not a complicated concept.
 
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I'm not sure I buy the whole "my grandkids will never draw" argument he said publicly. It sounds good and makes it seem like he cares about residents, when he and by extension WYOGA was telling everyone to oppose 90/10 and write to Wyoming state reps less than a year before.

I think given a lot of residents book with outfitters on the big 5, he knew it wouldn't hurt his bottom line and was an easy trade to try to get outfitter set asides, or transferable owner tags or some other type or scheme that would benefit his bottom line.

I think he takes whatever position that he believes gives him more control of the situation to benefit his self.
 
LivingTheDream said:
I'm not sure I buy the whole "my grandkids will never draw" argument he said publicly. It sounds good and makes it seem like he cares about residents, when he and by extension WYOGA was telling everyone to oppose 90/10 and write to Wyoming state reps less than a year before.

I think given a lot of residents book with outfitters on the big 5, he knew it wouldn't hurt his bottom line and was an easy trade to try to get outfitter set asides, or transferable owner tags or some other type or scheme that would benefit his bottom line.

I think he takes whatever position that he believes gives him more control of the situation to benefit his self.
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No question...absolutely right.

Make no mistake, Sy would go for 90-10 for deer, elk, and pronghorn in one second flat for a 5% outfitter set aside.
 
HikeHunt61 said:
The wilderness rule certainly only benefits outfitters.
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The wilderness rule is a huge benefit to outfitter and some resident hunters as well. It also harms some resident hunters by congregating NR DIY hunters in non-wilderness areas. The cost/benefit for res hunters is entirely dependent on where they hunt. Since the vast majority of res hunters hunt non-wilderness area and always will, it would be a huge benefit to most residents to get this law repealed. Getting this point through the skull of your average res hunter is harder than wedding d!ck.
 
BuzzH said:
Sy made a deal...he supported and was a yes vote on changing the big 5 to 90-10.

Its on record and you can watch him vote.

He would support 90-10 for deer, elk and pronghorn if he could get 5% of the total NR tags as an outfitter set aside...he tried it.
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5%?…. Believe it was 50%
 
Well at least we established it wasn't the outfitters who cut the allotment in half. the truth can ruin a great story can't it.

Just like the NR the outfitters have paid their dues and they got the rug pulled out from under them as well. I don't blame them for trying to make a deal to save their livelihoods under duress. so would I because I'm a capitalist.

So now that we've established who's to blame how does the NR deal with the new realities? that depends on your points, age, wealth and desire. if you're low on points the big 5 is a suckers bet. bail. if you're at the very top on points I'd stay in until I drew then bail.

On deer/elk and pronghorn hose us all you want, because you always do. I'll still play . WY been good to me , I'll call a spade a spade but no hard feelings. so yes on my vote.
 
Togwotee said:
Just like the NR the outfitters have paid their dues and they got the rug pulled out from under them as well. I don't blame them for trying to make a deal to save their livelihoods under duress. so would I because I'm a capitalist.
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I don't blame them either. But as a capitalist, I believe their product should sell based on it's value- not because the government fixes it for them.

But I digress...
 
I understand the thoughts about the outfitters wanting the changes, but comparing it to the wilderness law seems flawed to me as well as the argument about point creep. Yes, it will negatively affect one group of DIY hunters, but will benefit the other group of DIY hunters as well as WY in terms of revenue. There is nothing stopping a DIY hunter from benefitting if the changes are put in. There is nothing blocking NR hunters from anything like the wilderness law does.

I go back to what was the original intent of the "Special" tag. It seems, that it was there to increase some revenue for WY while improving the odds for those willing to pay the price. If WY can sell all the tags at that price and also improve the odds for those willing to pay, I don't see the argument other than for personal reasons. And let me be clear if I can pay extra and improve my odds then that is of course for my personal reasons. I get it, but I don't really see the argument of it being an outfitter gain.

It like everything else in life comes down to supply and demand. Not sure anyone of us can really stop that tide.
 
Often the odds on special are lower. the higher prices might cure that.

Most of this could be solved real easy, have a landowner tag system like almost all other states have. let the landowners and outfitters make some money and they wouldn't need as many draw tags. and we know why that's not popular.
 
jims said:
Cheatgrass is already emerged from fall moisture and doing very well in many corners of Wyoming, Colorado and Utah where I’ve spent time the past couple weeks. Yep, we sprayed 433 acres of cheatgrass on critical winter range yesterday via helicopter so I’ve been busy.

View attachment 92118
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If you don’t mind me asking, who (Gov agcy/private) are you spraying for? With the expense, it seems like mainly governmental customers? Or possibly quasi-governmental conservation orgs?

Just curious, no other agenda. If I win the lottery I’m calling you to spray my place.
 
I hate to interfere with the topic of this post but thought I would respond.

I actually work as a county weed manager that is spraying to benefit the wildlife, livestock, wildfire mitigation, etc on our county properties. We applied for several grants to fund these projects in collaboration with other counties that dramatically cut our cost for cheatgrass control.

There are cost-sharing programs that exist and are being developed for private land owners and managers. The long-term benefits to wildlife and private cattle ranchers are definitely worth every penny. We have been monitoring and evaluating response of native species, browse, biomass, rare plants, nutritional gains, wildlife utilization, wildfire response, etc in response to cheatgrass control for the past 12 years. Cheatgrass research and spraying is growing like wildfire across the West and Midwest.

I’ll start a cheatgrass post later this winter with an update for those interested. If you are seriously interested you are welcome to pm me directly.
 
I gave no idea about cheatgrass or it’s impacts, however what are the long term issues of spraying feed with glyphosate or other herbicides? We have been told they are safe for a long time, but recently studies are be showing otherwise.
 
Gollywomper said:
I gave no idea about cheatgrass or it’s impacts, however what are the long term issues of spraying feed with glyphosate or other herbicides? We have been told they are safe for a long time, but recently studies are be showing otherwise.
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Look no further than our resident cheatgrass expert to see the long term impacts of the chemicals.
 
Pm me. I would be glad to share with you how the treatments used for controlling cheatgrass is many times safer than the coffee you are drinking each morning and many of the “chemicals” that are found under your sink! Again this is totally off topic so I apologize.
 
For those unbelievers:

The lower the number the more toxicity!

Glyphosate (Roundup) - 5,600 - Category - practically nontoxic
Caffeine - 190 - Category - moderately toxic
Nicotine - 10 - Category - highly toxic


infographic-acute-tox-corrected.png
 
Glad I cut back my coffee intake. Use to drink 2 pots a day. Now I drink 2 pots in 3 days. Might of died if I did not cut back. ????
 
Sorry to keep posting but I think it's pretty important for the public to know the facts.

What I find intriguing and interesting is the general public really doesn't understand exactly what an LD50 is that is presented in the above table. The scale used to conduct the research that is used on labels is 100% concentrate. As an example, someone would have to drink 5600 mg/kg of pure Roundup or 190 mg/kg of pure caffeine to have the indicated toxic response.

No one in their right mind is going to drink or be exposed to that much Roundup or caffeine. Also, the rates that Roundup are sprayed in the field, lawn, garden, etc are a fraction of the pure concentrate. I don't think many people understand that when Roundup is sprayed it's nearly impossible to be exposed to the concentrated rate that is actually considered practically non-toxic in it's pure form by the EPA.
 
Commented - Thanks for staying on top of this and making the comment process link available.
 
Bluehair said:
If you don’t mind me asking, who (Gov agcy/private) are you spraying for? With the expense, it seems like mainly governmental customers? Or possibly quasi-governmental conservation orgs?

Just curious, no other agenda. If I win the lottery I’m calling you to spray my place.
Click to expand...
The Wild Sheep Found. helped with some funding for WG&F to spray some areas near us, hoping to get parts of the ranch we work for sprayed maybe next year. If you have any bighorn sheep the WSF might help.
 
Jim's chart (acute dose) is a one time, all in one dose that would kill half the people who ingest it. Back in college I ate too many caffene pills and felt like I might die for a few hours.

Accidentally get a big dose of roundup and you will live through it Get a tiny doses of roundup regularly for decades and that is a whole different thing (chronic exposure).

Worked at a pesticide reseearch facility. Co worker in late 30s (who spent a lot of time in the pesticide building) got several forms of cancer, it was terminal. I always wonder.
 
Now they make GMO sugar beets that are designed to take a heavy dose of basically nasty roundup and the beets don't get phased. Sure as hell don't want to breath that stuff in when they spray.

Now kosha weeds that is my concern, one plant can produce what 10,000 to 100,000 seeds .
 

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