Looks like the elk herd is on its way out for good…

How do they control harvest age objectives? More LE tags? Hoping I can draw an early rifle tag before that concept hits the dirt.
 
Not perfect, but I am mostly supportive. There are surplus bulls to kill on many of the LE units and addressing point creep is needed big time. I appreciate the effort to address these things, and increase opportunity across a variety of hunting options (archery, early rifle, mid rifle, late rifle, late archery).

Will be interesting to see what gets supported in the upcoming RAC and wildlife board meetings. Wish I could attend/watch the RAC meetings, but I will be sheep hunting. I am ok with that trade off :ROFLMAO:
 
How do they control harvest age objectives? More LE tags? Hoping I can draw an early rifle tag before that concept hits the dirt.
yes -DWR increases tags to lower average age harvested or decreases tags to raise average age. They have been using this concept for many years, but with the new plan they are proposing to restructure the harvest age objectives to include three age objectives across all LE units:
5 ½ to 6 years old
6 to 6 ½ years old
6 ½ to 7 years old

The current plan manages LE elk units at the following harvest age objectives:
4.5-5.0 years old
5.5-6.0 years old
6.5-7.0 years old
7.5-8.0 years old
 
Anyone know how they propose to sell the general season tags (draw, first come, etc)?
The area they label as Central Mountains, I suppose this means Nebo and Manti?
My sons are just at the point level to be in the mix for a LE tag. I suspect the point creep for the remaining LE areas will be big. I'm kind of sad that they probably won't be able to now for many years.
 
i don't know enough about the Utah season structure to really grasp the changes. but . correct me if i'm wrong, looks like their goal is to really blow it wide open? can those herds take that? will quality be better or worse in 10 years? seems like worse to an outsider looking in
 
Anyone know how they propose to sell the general season tags (draw, first come, etc)?
The area they label as Central Mountains, I suppose this means Nebo and Manti?
My sons are just at the point level to be in the mix for a LE tag. I suspect the point creep for the remaining LE areas will be big. I'm kind of sad that they probably won't be able to now for many years.
The PROPOSED central mountains general any bull area is a small sub-part of the bigger Central Mountains Manti unit known as Moroni Hills. They are NOT proposing any bull hunts on the broader Central Mtns Manti or Nebo units.
 
i don't know enough about the Utah season structure to really grasp the changes. but . correct me if i'm wrong, looks like their goal is to really blow it wide open? can those herds take that? will quality be better or worse in 10 years? seems like worse to an outsider looking in
Remains to be seen - the goal is definitely to increase opportunity/address point creep and harvest some of the excess bulls on the LE units. The way the proposal works though, is it spreads hunters across various hunt options, with focus on a higher # of tags in hunts that will likely not have a very high success rate (mid and late rifle hunts and late archery hunt).

As an example, 60% of all Limited Entry elk tags will go to rifle/any weapon hunts (25% to archery hunts and 15% to muzzleloader hunts). Within that 60% of rifle tags, the breakdown will be:
- 10% for early any weapon (rut hunt)
- 30% for mid any weapon (overlaps spike bull hunts)
- 17% for late any weapon (November hunt)
- 3% for multi-season (good for all hunts)

I am mostly supportive - let's address point creep and kill some excess bulls rather than letting them die on the vine.
 
If any of you gents have hunted or participated on a wasatch LE hunt the last 7 years or so and found that an acceptable LE experience you should support this. It’s where most of the ideas and proposals came from.
I had a great archery elk hunt on the LE Wasatch hunt last year. Fun hunt and I support opportunities over waiting a lifetime for a tag. I like the direction of this proposal. Thank you for your work with this. Have fun.
 
If any of you gents have hunted or participated on a wasatch LE hunt the last 7 years or so and found that an acceptable LE experience you should support this. It’s where most of the ideas and proposals came from.
Hey berry,
On the DWR's website with highlights from this new proposal plan at this link: https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...k-management-plan-changes-to-elk-hunting.html it lists out all of the LE Elk hunts and dates (see snippet below), but the muzzleloader hunt is missing. Do you know if that was just an oversight or does the newly proposed plan completely remove the muzzleloader hunt and replace it with HAMS/restricted weapons hunts?

ELK​

  • General-season archery spike bull: Aug. 19–Sept. 8, 2023
  • General-season archery any bull: Aug. 19–Sept. 20, 2023
  • General-season muzzleloader: Nov. 1–9, 2023
  • General-season any legal weapon spike bull: Oct. 7–19, 2023
  • General-season early any legal weapon any bull: Oct. 7–13, 2023
  • General-season late any legal weapon any bull: Oct. 14–20, 2023
  • Limited-entry elk archery: Aug. 23–Sept. 19, 2023
  • Limited-entry late-season archery elk: Dec. 2–17, 2023
  • Limited-entry elk early any weapon: Sept. 20–24, 2023
  • Limited-entry elk HAMS/restricted weapons: Nov. 11–30, 2023
  • Limited-entry any legal weapon hunt on 14 units that didn't previously have a mid-season hunt: Oct. 7–19, 2023
  • Limited-entry late-season any legal weapon hunt on Diamond Mountain: Nov. 11–19, 2023
 
Hey berry,
On the DWR's website with highlights from this new proposal plan at this link: https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...k-management-plan-changes-to-elk-hunting.html it lists out all of the LE Elk hunts and dates (see snippet below), but the muzzleloader hunt is missing. Do you know if that was just an oversight or does the newly proposed plan completely remove the muzzleloader hunt and replace it with HAMS/restricted weapons hunts?

ELK​

  • General-season archery spike bull: Aug. 19–Sept. 8, 2023
  • General-season archery any bull: Aug. 19–Sept. 20, 2023
  • General-season muzzleloader: Nov. 1–9, 2023
  • General-season any legal weapon spike bull: Oct. 7–19, 2023
  • General-season early any legal weapon any bull: Oct. 7–13, 2023
  • General-season late any legal weapon any bull: Oct. 14–20, 2023
  • Limited-entry elk archery: Aug. 23–Sept. 19, 2023
  • Limited-entry late-season archery elk: Dec. 2–17, 2023
  • Limited-entry elk early any weapon: Sept. 20–24, 2023
  • Limited-entry elk HAMS/restricted weapons: Nov. 11–30, 2023
  • Limited-entry any legal weapon hunt on 14 units that didn't previously have a mid-season hunt: Oct. 7–19, 2023
  • Limited-entry late-season any legal weapon hunt on Diamond Mountain: Nov. 11–19, 2023
It’s an oversight the muzz hunt should remain intact as we understand it currently
 
If any of you gents have hunted or participated on a wasatch LE hunt the last 7 years or so and found that an acceptable LE experience you should support this. It’s where most of the ideas and proposals came from.
You are on the committee right? Serious question, why change the hunting a late season cow during a general season tag like deer or spike elk? This has provided extra opportunity and spreads people out. Two things the proposal aims to do.
 
You are on the committee right? Serious question, why change the hunting a late season cow during a general season tag like deer or spike elk? This has provided extra opportunity and spreads people out. Two things the proposal aims to do.
I think I missed that particular meeting but if I remember right we tried to go away from cow hunts en masse. For a couple reasons

1. Large amounts of pressure just pushed elk to private and inaccessible areas. This created a whole bunch of management and political problems.

2. Creating more dedicated antlerless opportunities was a priority. From a management perspective we felt like quite a few of those tags went unfilled because people prioritized the antlered tag over the antlerless.

Again I believe I missed that meeting but this was what I gathered from just chatting about the topic.
 
i don't know enough about the Utah season structure to really grasp the changes. but . correct me if i'm wrong, looks like their goal is to really blow it wide open? can those herds take that? will quality be better or worse in 10 years? seems like worse to an outsider looking in
If the system encourages that more bulls be harvested, it stands to reason that they need to cut cow tags.
 
Thanks for your contribution to this, for those that haven’t done so, the information shared around reasons was very informative and insightful. Seems to be headed a good direction given the reality of the situation the state is in.
Berryblaster - one of the stats was that the age of bulls reached 96% of antler growth was around 6 with an average score of 320. Do you know how that data was collected by chance? Curious as teeth are asked for with LE tags but am wondering about how b&c numbers were collected.
 
Thanks for your contribution to this, for those that haven’t done so, the information shared around reasons was very informative and insightful. Seems to be headed a good direction given the reality of the situation the state is in.
Berryblaster - one of the stats was that the age of bulls reached 96% of antler growth was around 6 with an average score of 320. Do you know how that data was collected by chance? Curious as teeth are asked for with LE tags but am wondering about how b&c numbers were collected.
the tooth submission paperwork asks for what amounts to a mini BC scoring (# points, main beam length, etc) that probably allows them to match up tooth age and approximate score
 
the tooth submission paperwork asks for what amounts to a mini BC scoring (# points, main beam length, etc) that probably allows them to match up tooth age and approximate score
Thanks, never been fortunate enough to fill one out! Still waiting after 20 years
 
Tag numbers yanked from early rifle, good. Shorter early rifle season, good. More archery opportunity this is a no brainer Utah will be full of big bulls still. Tags will be easier to get pushing guys through the system. I love this, imagine drawing an early rifle and shooting a bull at long range!??? You suck at hunting plain and simple. I killed my big bull in bow range. There’s a lot more skill in getting close and calling in a bull than sniping it at 700+ yds. Please don’t threaten to quit hunting Utah like on the trail camera changes, follow through this time.
 
Thanks for your contribution to this, for those that haven’t done so, the information shared around reasons was very informative and insightful. Seems to be headed a good direction given the reality of the situation the state is in.
Berryblaster - one of the stats was that the age of bulls reached 96% of antler growth was around 6 with an average score of 320. Do you know how that data was collected by chance? Curious as teeth are asked for with LE tags but am wondering about how b&c numbers were collected.
BYU did a study about this. They shared this info at a recent wildlife board meeting.
 
I think I missed that particular meeting but if I remember right we tried to go away from cow hunts en masse. For a couple reasons

1. Large amounts of pressure just pushed elk to private and inaccessible areas. This created a whole bunch of management and political problems.

2. Creating more dedicated antlerless opportunities was a priority. From a management perspective we felt like quite a few of those tags went unfilled because people prioritized the antlered tag over the antlerless.

Again I believe I missed that meeting but this was what I gathered from just chatting about the topic.
What about all the units that aren’t private? A lot of units down south are mostly forest. Giving the flexibility to hunt elk during other hunts allows for higher success rates and fills those tags. It also spreads people out. I understand change is the only thing that’s consistent but this one seems short sighted and maybe too focused on units like the wasatch.

Other than that I like most of the changes, but im on my waiting period for le elk anyways. If I had 20 points again and the rifle hunts were cut to 5 days I might have more strong feelings.
 
I like these proposals. I am sitting on 17 elk points and this makes it that much more fun on where to spend them. I wonder how many points it's going to take to pull a mid season Beaver or San Juan tag? For those folks with 5-10 points, this could really be a great way to cash in and have a good mid season rifle hunt and who knows what these December archery hunts are going to take to draw. It will really be eye opening to see where all of the point pools land. The other interesting thing is this first year there are going to be some good GS elk hunts on the newly opened former LE units. The uintas is gonna be a ghost town this fall!
 
I like these proposals. I am sitting on 17 elk points and this makes it that much more fun on where to spend them. I wonder how many points it's going to take to pull a mid season Beaver or San Juan tag? For those folks with 5-10 points, this could really be a great way to cash in and have a good mid season rifle hunt and who knows what these December archery hunts are going to take to draw. It will really be eye opening to see where all of the point pools land. The other interesting thing is this first year there are going to be some good GS elk hunts on the newly opened former LE units. The uintas is gonna be a ghost town this fall!
I believe we made the December archery hunts unlimited. Basically OTC but it cost your points and you have to go thru the wait period. I can’t remember for sure but I think that’s what we decided to do
 
Anyone know how they propose to sell the general season tags (draw, first come, etc)?
The area they label as Central Mountains, I suppose this means Nebo and Manti?
My sons are just at the point level to be in the mix for a LE tag. I suspect the point creep for the remaining LE areas will be big. I'm kind of sad that they probably won't be able to now for many years.
Point creep will decrease with the new plan
 
I believe we made the December archery hunts unlimited. Basically OTC but it cost your points and you have to go thru the wait period. I can’t remember for sure but I think that’s what we decided to do
I think they only said 1% of the permits would be the December archery tags with a minimum of five.
 
I personally love the plan. More general season opportunity and more LE elk tags given out. From general season to LE tags, Utah has got one of the biggest differences in the entire West on the quality of the hunt. Looks like they are closing the Gap a little bit.
 
I am mostly supportive of the plan. The only thing missing from the plan would be to add antler point restrictions to a few units e.g. 4 point or better on some GS units. This allows for both opportunity to hunt but also a good chance at a more mature 3-4 year old bull.
 
I believe we made the December archery hunts unlimited. Basically OTC but it cost your points and you have to go thru the wait period. I can’t remember for sure but I think that’s what we decided to do
Wow on every LE unit?
No only 1% of the tags with a minimum of 5 tags per unit witch ever is more. And I believe the 1% does not cut out from the 25% of archery tags, they are additional tags on top of everything else.
 
I am trying to be open minded about the new changes and like some of them. I am a bit concerned about how many more tags they are going to issue... I hope they strike a good balance on opportunity and quality. If I wanted small bulls and a ton of opportunity I would go hunt Colorado. Im okay waiting my turn to go after huge Utah bulls. This plan will slow down point creep but it isn't going away until demand slows which I doubt is ever going to happen.

I am also very skeptical that very many bulls were dying of old age on these high age objective units. I spent a good deal of time and boot leather in a couple of the 7.5-8.0 age objective units the last couple years and didn't find any dead heads to support the notion that bulls are dying of old age in any sort of meaningful quantity. I think they just wanted justification to make more money selling tags as usual. $$$

Its been interesting reading hunters posts on the internet describing their bad experiences on the general elk/deer hunts and how overcrowded they are. I hope our LE elk units never get like that.
 
Berry was there any discussion about making the general bull tags 3 or 4 point or better?
Man one of my favorite idea that we bounced around was creating a 4 point or less hunt instead of the spike. Basically make every 2-4 year old on the landscape available and try to manage for just enough bulls getting through to upper age class to maintain the age objective.

If you can think it up we talked about it. Good ideas, bad ideas and loony ones ?
 
Man one of my favorite idea that we bounced around was creating a 4 point or less hunt instead of the spike. Basically make every 2-4 year old on the landscape available and try to manage for just enough bulls getting through to upper age class to maintain the age objective.

If you can think it up we talked about it. Good ideas, bad ideas and loony ones ?
Thanks for the information. How can I find out who is on the committee? How was it formed? Thanks
 
Man one of my favorite idea that we bounced around was creating a 4 point or less hunt instead of the spike. Basically make every 2-4 year old on the landscape available and try to manage for just enough bulls getting through to upper age class to maintain the age objective.

If you can think it up we talked about it. Good ideas, bad ideas and loony ones ?
Limited entry units?
 
I see some things that I like, but we really need to see details such as the total number of LE bull tags and the antlerless hunts. I think it is good idea to stop letting archers take cow elk with GS spike bull and GS any bull tags.

I think there are other things that could be done to address point creep. Namely, put the antlerless tags in the with the buck and bull draw and let people burn points on cow elk hunts, which are also showing point creep in a separate draw.
 
Has anyone hunted the any bull units in utah and seen any improvements in the elk numbers on these units ? The reason I’m asking is I have only seen decreases in numbers on soapstone/uintas , nine mile and the Wasatch front. When DWR has and is still selling 2 control tags for each bull tag sold on many of the current any bull units -it’s labeled as a 5 year management plan. Utah elk hunters have already spoke out before when DWR has wanted to sell unlimited numbers of permits on these units. When DWR will start to listen to thier biologists and actually change tag numbers annually -instead of every 5 years……it really looks like it’s just for revenue. I’ll support unlimited tags on the any bull units when I see the herd numbers come back. I have actually seen more bulls than cows for the past 3 years on the any bull units that I have hunted - and those sightings are very low. You need to have cows to have a future. I’ve complained on phone calls to local DWR employees who basically say that they are hearing my complaint continuously.

Please be careful if you are supporting all of the proposals that DWR is asking for. Herds can and have been almost exterminated on units (fish lake) in 1 year by overselling cow elk tags and then having the perfect weather (snow) bring the elk to all of the tag holders.

If/when utah DWR comes up with a year to year management plan (not a 5 or 10 year plan with disregard to annual herd counts) on the any bull units - I’ll support the sell of more any bull tags. Until they do - any bull units are managed for $$$$ not quality and definitely the lowest numbers that I’ve ever seen and getting lower every year- my opinion.
 
I hunted Wasatch and South slope archery,All I seen was one Calf I did here a few bugles in the peak of the rut.
I also hunted the Rifle hunt with my wife in the Wasatch unit,We did not even see a cow elk in 4 days of hunting,I have been hunting these two units for 30 plus years and it has never been this poor.The elk have adapted to preasure and are residing on private property IMO.
 
Has anyone hunted the any bull units in utah and seen any improvements in the elk numbers on these units ?
Yes I have hunted the same area for 26 years. I have watched the herd grow substantially.
Now It has been stable over the last 10 years.

What I have noticed here lately. They have been held up in the deep canyons, The herds have been scattered or pushed on to private or tribal.
We hardly seen any elk during the rifle hunt and hardly seen any Elk during the youth hunt.
But when we went up for the deer hunt there was elk everywhere.

Wasatch is a perfect example. Hunting pressure has made it harder to hunt but there is plenty of Elk on that unit.
Herds can and have been almost exterminated on units (fish lake) in 1 year by overselling cow elk tags
Yes but that was years ago.
The DWR admitted they messed up on that. They over sold cow tags on that unit.

I stand behind the whole proposal.
I brought this up months ago that something like this needed to happen. The elk committed tweaked it and made it even better in my opinion.
There is one thing I would like to see changed and I voiced my concerns on this.
The GS muzzleloader hunt needs to be first before any rifle hunts start.
I think there should be 3 GS Rifle elk hunts. I think they should do a GS rifle hunt during the GS deer hunt.
 
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Yes I have hunted the same area for 26 years. I have watched the herd grow substantially.
Now It has been stable over the last 10 years.

What I have noticed here lately. They have been held up in the deep canyons, The herds have been scattered or pushed on to private or tribal.
We hardly seen any elk during the rifle hunt and hardly seen any Elk during the youth hunt.
But when we went up for the deer hunt there was elk everywhere.

Wasatch is a perfect example. Hunting pressure has made it harder to hunt but there is plenty of Elk on that unit.

Yes but that was years ago.
The DWR admitted they messed up on that. They over sold cow tags on that unit.

I stand behind the whole proposal.
I brought this up months ago that something like this needed to happen. The elk committed tweaked it and made it even better in my opinion.
There is one thing I would like to see changed and I voiced my concerns on this.
The GS muzzleloader hunt needs to be first before any rifle hunts start.
I think there should be 3 GS Rifle elk hunts. I think they should do a GS rifle hunt during the GS deer hunt.
I’m glad to hear someone say they have seen improvements. I consider myself a pretty hard core hunter. I don’t have horses but I make the real 6-8 mile hikes into the deep stuff. I have been pretty fortunate to usually fill my tag but I work really hard for it. The deeper areas that I have hunted have hardly any elk in them. I also hunt the borders of reservation and do lots of glassing and tracking. Ever since the DWR started issuing 2 cow control tags for every bull - the numbers of elk that I have seen have plummeted. And I also check out the winter grounds and know several land owners that have seen the decreases as well.
There are areas (bruin point) on 9 mile where the elk stay on the private land until the hunts are over - maybe a spring or winter hunt is in order ?

Again - glad to hear someone is seeing improvements.
It would also be nice to see some spring elk numbers on any bull units to confirm the elk are there.

Thanks for your comments
 
I hope everyone realizes the only reason they are keeping some tags for early rifle is so that the rich can keep hunting the rut. It needs to be proposed that none of the conservation tags and no Landowners tags can go to the early rifle hunt, those tags need to stay specifically for draw only.
This is a good point. I’m not really sure how the landowner tags work, but I agree that conservation tags should be taken allocated in the same proportions as the draw tags.
 
Has anyone hunted the any bull units in utah and seen any improvements in the elk numbers on these units ? The reason I’m asking is I have only seen decreases in numbers on soapstone/uintas , nine mile and the Wasatch front. When DWR has and is still selling 2 control tags for each bull tag sold on many of the current any bull units -it’s labeled as a 5 year management plan. Utah elk hunters have already spoke out before when DWR has wanted to sell unlimited numbers of permits on these units. When DWR will start to listen to thier biologists and actually change tag numbers annually -instead of every 5 years……it really looks like it’s just for revenue. I’ll support unlimited tags on the any bull units when I see the herd numbers come back. I have actually seen more bulls than cows for the past 3 years on the any bull units that I have hunted - and those sightings are very low. You need to have cows to have a future. I’ve complained on phone calls to local DWR employees who basically say that they are hearing my complaint continuously.

Please be careful if you are supporting all of the proposals that DWR is asking for. Herds can and have been almost exterminated on units (fish lake) in 1 year by overselling cow elk tags and then having the perfect weather (snow) bring the elk to all of the tag holders.

If/when utah DWR comes up with a year to year management plan (not a 5 or 10 year plan with disregard to annual herd counts) on the any bull units - I’ll support the sell of more any bull tags. Until they do - any bull units are managed for $$$$ not quality and definitely the lowest numbers that I’ve ever seen and getting lower every year- my opinion.
Yup, I have a multi season any bull tag and only seeing tons of hunters. First year I've not seen an elk on public any bull hunts. Seen some on a cwmu. Fish cop checked my tag and said everyone is saying the same. But let's sell more anybull tags. ?‍♂️
 
Hunt# EA2000 - Antlerless Elk Control Antlerless Elk (2022)
Antlerless Elk Control
Weapon Type
Any Legal Weapon
Season Dates
Valid for the season/weapon listed

Year 2022
Any Bull Units that all hunters with an any bull tag can purchase up to 2 cow elk control tags.

So here’s 7 units that allow 2 control tags as a special offer after you purchase your license. Very appealing to a new and an existing hunter.

Chalk Creek
East Canyon
Henry Mtns
Morgan-South Rich
Pine Valley
West Desert, Tintic Valley
Zion

So my question has now changed to who has seen improvements on the above 7 units (any bull) that justify 2 control tags for possibly 17,000 plus hunters now and unlimited going forward ?

So I’ll pick on the Henry mountains unit which I have also been on a lot helping for bison hunts. There is a very small herd of elk on that unit and anyone that has drawn a bison tag is also enticed to a “special offer” for antlerless elk. Best of wishes finding those elk…….

East canyon and chalk creek are another example where the elk reside on CWMU or private-but that “special offer” is still there and I’ve also helped out on those hunts for the past few years or hunted them on the multi season any bull hunts. It’s the same-very low numbers during the multi season hunts.
Nine mile Anthro (limited entry HAMS) is another example of where more bulls than cows were found and I helped a friend for 17 hunt days to locate a bull. All the other hunters were experiencing the same issue as we were. And I believe that unit had a 12% success rate in 2021- please correct me if I’m wrong.

I could go on and on to include beaver/Pahvant/manti and others where the elk numbers have continued to decrease.

In my opinion -this is just about $$$$ and no cents/sense -pun intended- lol.

So I included some limited entry hunts above in addition to the any bull units because elk do move onto several of the any bull units from limited entry units to winter. But where are these elk during the any bull hunts - I can’t find them or any reason why “special offers” are being made except revenue $$$$$

I know -let’s make some more any bull units like the Henry mountains (almost extinct for elk) to sell a new plan for more money.

Just my opinion and observations -would like to hear what others are saying on the above.
And I don’t have any faith in the new elk plan that has been proposed. I’m going to attend an upcoming RAC. I’ll have the chance to submit a question that will be hand picked- so in reality - we all know what this means. It will likely be pushed through because the majority want this. We will all feel warm and fuzzy and excited for all the new “opportunities” and short season dates. I’m not in favor of most of the new proposals. - we need to have cow elk to have a future and raise the age objectives on bulls if hunters are going to kill good bulls after 26-27 years of points. The new age objectives will sell more tags and address the point creep issue and we won’t be very happy with 300-320 class bulls. And that’s what you will get with elk that don’t make it to the 7-8 year objectives that we used to have. Ok a 350 bull might surface but a 400 will be a rarity and already is.

Please post how it’s better now than ever and how the new plan will improve our herds. It better include zero cow tags until these units have the numbers that justify the increases in tag sells. My opinion.
 
Hunt# EA2000 - Antlerless Elk Control Antlerless Elk (2022)
Antlerless Elk Control
Weapon Type
Any Legal Weapon
Season Dates
Valid for the season/weapon listed

Year 2022
Any Bull Units that all hunters with an any bull tag can purchase up to 2 cow elk control tags.

So here’s 7 units that allow 2 control tags as a special offer after you purchase your license. Very appealing to a new and an existing hunter.

Chalk Creek
East Canyon
Henry Mtns
Morgan-South Rich
Pine Valley
West Desert, Tintic Valley
Zion

So my question has now changed to who has seen improvements on the above 7 units (any bull) that justify 2 control tags for possibly 17,000 plus hunters now and unlimited going forward ?

So I’ll pick on the Henry mountains unit which I have also been on a lot helping for bison hunts. There is a very small herd of elk on that unit and anyone that has drawn a bison tag is also enticed to a “special offer” for antlerless elk. Best of wishes finding those elk…….

East canyon and chalk creek are another example where the elk reside on CWMU or private-but that “special offer” is still there and I’ve also helped out on those hunts for the past few years or hunted them on the multi season any bull hunts. It’s the same-very low numbers during the multi season hunts.
Nine mile Anthro (limited entry HAMS) is another example of where more bulls than cows were found and I helped a friend for 17 hunt days to locate a bull. All the other hunters were experiencing the same issue as we were. And I believe that unit had a 12% success rate in 2021- please correct me if I’m wrong.

I could go on and on to include beaver/Pahvant/manti and others where the elk numbers have continued to decrease.

In my opinion -this is just about $$$$ and no cents/sense -pun intended- lol.

So I included some limited entry hunts above in addition to the any bull units because elk do move onto several of the any bull units from limited entry units to winter. But where are these elk during the any bull hunts - I can’t find them or any reason why “special offers” are being made except revenue $$$$$

I know -let’s make some more any bull units like the Henry mountains (almost extinct for elk) to sell a new plan for more money.

Just my opinion and observations -would like to hear what others are saying on the above.
And I don’t have any faith in the new elk plan that has been proposed. I’m going to attend an upcoming RAC. I’ll have the chance to submit a question that will be hand picked- so in reality - we all know what this means. It will likely be pushed through because the majority want this. We will all feel warm and fuzzy and excited for all the new “opportunities” and short season dates. I’m not in favor of most of the new proposals. - we need to have cow elk to have a future and raise the age objectives on bulls if hunters are going to kill good bulls after 26-27 years of points. The new age objectives will sell more tags and address the point creep issue and we won’t be very happy with 300-320 class bulls. And that’s what you will get with elk that don’t make it to the 7-8 year objectives that we used to have. Ok a 350 bull might surface but a 400 will be a rarity and already is.

Please post how it’s better now than ever and how the new plan will improve our herds. It better include zero cow tags until these units have the numbers that justify the increases in tag sells. My opinion.
I can poke holes in your whole post but winter take the time too right now, but here is one.

The Henery mountain unit is purposely being managed for very low elk numbers, they don't want elk on the unit, it's a premium deer unit, elk compete with the deer for food, I suspect that is also a big reason they included the Pauns into the general elk management plan, they want to keep the elk numbers low.

As for the age objectives, they are finding that more of the older bulls that are killed are not big trophy bulls, and never we're trophy bulls. My buddy killed a bull last year in a area managed for 6.5 year old bulls that was 13 and scored 330, his wife killed one on the same unit a few years ago that was 4 and went 349. In a video The DWR post earlier this year they have examples of bulls that are 5 that are 370 bulls. Go watch all the material they put out explaining why they do what they do and you will have the answer to all of your questions above.
 
Yup, I have a multi season any bull tag and only seeing tons of hunters. First year I've not seen an elk on public any bull hunts. Seen some on a cwmu. Fish cop checked my tag and said everyone is saying the same. But let's sell more anybull tags. ?‍♂️
Agreed. When you look at the Wasatch Front decline in deer quality, those who have hunted it for years can all tell the same story. Extended archery hunt, early and regular rifle hunt, muzzleloader hunt, and antlerless deer hunts have all contributed to the decline in quality. But hey, at least the hunters get “more opportunity”….more opportunity at what? To hunt and harvest what?

This piss poor management is the new trend. It ain’t working for the deer herds so lets try it on our elk herds! I’ll never understand this logic.

I hear stories about elk hunters in certain areas in Uintas that camp on side of road because all camp spots are taken. They all bloody their soles in a foot race on opening day of general season elk hunt to hopefully be the one who gets to experience a moment hunting elk in their own element…unharrassed…before the crowds show up, infect the area with human scent and drive the elk to another zip code. The elk numbers in these areas do not support the amount of guns pointed in their direction. The term “crap shoot” is all too familiar to many hunters now a days. Your chance is to beat the competition to the elk before they beat you. After that, enjoy the scenery and the taste of tag.

Is this what we want Statewide? Poor quality, poor hunting experiences? But hey, we have “more opportunity”….again….more opportunity at what? Frustration???
 
I can poke holes in your whole post but winter take the time too right now, but here is one.

The Henery mountain unit is purposely being managed for very low elk numbers, they don't want elk on the unit, it's a premium deer unit, elk compete with the deer for food, I suspect that is also a big reason they included the Pauns into the general elk management plan, they want to keep the elk numbers low.

As for the age objectives, they are finding that more of the older bulls that are killed are not big trophy bulls, and never we're trophy bulls. My buddy killed a bull last year in a area managed for 6.5 year old bulls that was 13 and scored 330, his wife killed one on the same unit a few years ago that was 4 and went 349. In a video The DWR post earlier this year they have examples of bulls that are 5 that are 370 bulls. Go watch all the material they put out explaining why they do what they do and you will have the answer to all of your questions above.
I agree with what you have said about the Henry’s unit and it being a premium unit managed for deer. And I welcome my whole post having holes poked in it. But the Henry’s unit is still one of the 7 any bull units with a possibility of having 34,000 cow elk “special offer” control tags sold on it. And it can be counted as 1 of 7 units that likely won’t ever (low numbers for hunters that will hunt it for elk)) be hunted for cow elk. So that really puts everyone on the remaining 6 units. I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how good the hunting is on any of those units and I haven’t hunted all of them. Someone did in fact say that they have seen an increase in elk numbers for 26 years on an any bull unit - but who else is seeing this ?

And as far as age for a trophy or mature bull that’s conflicting as well. It has been debated but generally believed to be 6-10 years of age.

“Hunters find it useful to know how to age a wild elk. If you're looking to bag a trophy bull, you'll need to find an elk that's between six and ten years of age: Before this point, the bull will likely not have reached full maturity.Sep 7, 2020”

The above is from missy oak but can be found over and over again.
But maybe I’m wrong -maybe 4-6 year old bulls produce the biggest trophy potential.?
Here’s something that anyone can poke a hole in so please do it. The glory days for the biggest bulls in utah were around 2005-2006. The top units that were producing many bulls over 400” were being managed for 7-8 year old bulls. Was it ever the best of times to draw a limited - absolutely. Did those units have higher elk numbers than now and did they allow spike hunts on them all like they do now ?
Pahvant has 1/2 the elk numbers now that it did in 2005-2006 - look it up. There could be some valid reasons why this unit has lower numbers. I’m just trying to understand how the new elk management plan is going to improve hunting when it appears to be about selling tags on units with dates that keep success rates really low. “Technologies that impact harvest success” is also being looked at to do what -lower harvest success.And I agree that this needs to be looked at further. I brought this up because the DWR is masking the new elk plan as their own plan to limit harvest success. Looking forward let’s say you sell 350,000 or more unlimited any bull tags- we could go back to that fish lake type of hunting where we wipe the herds out in 1 year.
But the utah DWR will surely address it with excuses that we have heard below.
“Oops we made a mistake”
“We are selling 2 “special offer” tags for the next 5 years on 7 units” (not looking at what the herd counts are at.) because that’s our plan.

Please poke holes in what I have said - so I can have some hope for a better future on elk hunting in Utah. I’m not seeing improvements in elk numbers on the any bull units that I have been hunting (almost extinct numbers) and the limited entry units aren’t producing the 400” bull numbers like they used too.
I would be really upset if I had 26 points for elk and found out that my new hunt would be a 4-5 day hunt now because of point creep. And twice as many hunts were in place back to back. Those hunters are likely to kill a small bull on the last day so they can feel good about not wasting 26 years and eating tag soup. It will be ok for a few years until it’s realized what happened to the trophy class animals that could have been.
“Oops we made a mistake” (DWR) fixes everything
I believe the new elk management plan is already an “Oops”and I hope that the hunters that saw this 2 years ago (any bull elk unlimited tags) will stand up against it again.
 
Hi, biased human here. I guide and regularly enjoy hunting and killing upper age class bulls. In fact I usually get to do 5 or so a year.

The current plan is unsustainable. Frankly, it’s a sour bill of goods that’s been parroted to you as a wonderland of promise.

If you consider yourself a ‘trophy hunter’ perhaps you have said something similar whilst conversating amongst peers:

‘I’ve killed plenty of animals and would rather wait for a good one’

Or maybe this?

‘It’s not a big deal if I only get a tag once or twice but it better be good when I do’

That’s a perfectly acceptable way to hunt and kudos to you, but just for a second journey with me. Take 2 steps out of your self serving selfish mindset and consider how that sounds to a 12 year old kid who now has to swallow the stark reality that even general season and antlerless options aren’t a sure bet. Or to a father who is dying to get his kids out, but worked the day the OTC tags went on sale and didn’t make it in the 4 hr time frame it took to sell everyone of them. Or the grandfather who remembers deer camp and has been looking forward to the years he gets to take his grandkids out but instead of getting a good chunk of years doing that the kids get disenchanted waiting for some fabled draw that never happens and before he knows it, the interest and magic is gone and the tradition dies with this generation on the shoulders of a few seasoned hunters who thought they wanted their own playground.

We still have frequent hunting opportunities available it’s true, but trends and broad math paint a very very stark picture about how that looks in the next 5-10 years. Just 5 years ago we had 300,000 big game applicants, last year? 590,000. There are 90,000~applicants vying for 2200 LE elk tags. That’s a 45 year average, new applicants on the Monroe face a 100+ year wait.

In our own personal bubbles we look at this and understand the system, how to navigate it, and the options in front of us. We are the very small minority, gotta look at the average hunter who just apply’s every year with no idea of the hopelessness ahead of them. Take a humble walk in those shoes and attempt to see that the greater good for preserving a heritage that is under fire is to serve that group of people.

Now this is all just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it, it’s much of the sentiment that drove decision making on the plan. If we thought we could have got it passed, I think the drive was there to scrap LE completely. We came up with a proposal that shifted management in a reasonable way, understanding that significant changes need to be made.
 
Agreed. When you look at the Wasatch Front decline in deer quality, those who have hunted it for years can all tell the same story. Extended archery hunt, early and regular rifle hunt, muzzleloader hunt, and antlerless deer hunts have all contributed to the decline in quality. But hey, at least the hunters get “more opportunity”….more opportunity at what? To hunt and harvest what?

This piss poor management is the new trend. It ain’t working for the deer herds so lets try it on our elk herds! I’ll never understand this logic.

I hear stories about elk hunters in certain areas in Uintas that camp on side of road because all camp spots are taken. They all bloody their soles in a foot race on opening day of general season elk hunt to hopefully be the one who gets to experience a moment hunting elk in their own element…unharrassed…before the crowds show up, infect the area with human scent and drive the elk to another zip code. The elk numbers in these areas do not support the amount of guns pointed in their direction. The term “crap shoot” is all too familiar to many hunters now a days. Your chance is to beat the competition to the elk before they beat you. After that, enjoy the scenery and the taste of tag.

Is this what we want Statewide? Poor quality, poor hunting experiences? But hey, we have “more opportunity”….again….more opportunity at what? Frustration???
I agree with you 100%. I wish they wouldn't oversell the crap out of our general deer and elk units.

I have thought of a solution to please both the quality and opportunity crowds...

What I would love to see is more of an emphasis on upland/small game. If I were king for a day and could snap my fingers I would make the general big game hunts more exclusive than they are so when you got a tag it wouldn't be a complete joke of an experience. In exchange for less yearly big game tag opportunities, I would increase the opportunity to hunt chuckers, pheasants, quail, rabbits, grouses, etc. If people could get their "blast on" so to speak then maybe they wouldn't get bent out of shape waiting a little bit to have a deer or elk tag in their pockets every year. Not sure how I would get from A to Z on that idea but I wouldn't care about getting a deer tag in Utah every year if I could consistently go have a blast chasing birds or rabbits.
 
I agree with you 100%. I wish they wouldn't oversell the crap out of our general deer and elk units.

I have thought of a solution to please both the quality and opportunity crowds...

What I would love to see is more of an emphasis on upland/small game. If I were king for a day and could snap my fingers I would make the general big game hunts more exclusive than they are so when you got a tag it wouldn't be a complete joke of an experience. In exchange for less yearly big game tag opportunities, I would increase the opportunity to hunt chuckers, pheasants, quail, rabbits, grouses, etc. If people could get their "blast on" so to speak then maybe they wouldn't get bent out of shape waiting a little bit to have a deer or elk tag in their pockets every year. Not sure how I would get from A to Z on that idea but I wouldn't care about getting a deer tag in Utah every year if I could consistently go have a blast chasing birds or rabbits.
I have absolutely no desire to hunt birds and rabbits. If I wanted too I could do that every year already.
 
I have absolutely no desire to hunt birds and rabbits. If I wanted too I could do that every year already.
@JakeH How crappy would big game hunting need to get for you to lose your desire for that? I have hunted elk in the Unitas my whole life and its gotten so crowded lately that its not even fun anymore. General deer units are just as bad or worse.

Tags don't guarantee a good time for me. Like you said, you can hunt birds or rabbits every year but don't want to... Probably because the quality sucks and there are hardly any birds or rabbits to hunt. I won't speak for you on that one but its the paradox I am noticing with all the conversations around increased opportunity.
 
@JakeH How crappy would big game hunting need to get for you to lose your desire for that? I have hunted elk in the Unitas my whole life and its gotten so crowded lately that its not even fun anymore. General deer units are just as bad or worse.

Tags don't guarantee a good time for me. Like you said, you can hunt birds or rabbits every year but don't want to... Probably because the quality sucks and there are hardly any birds or rabbits to hunt. I won't speak for you on that one but its the paradox I am noticing with all the conversations around increased opportunity.
I get into elk every year in the uintahs, I see mature deer every year on my general hunts. This year the area my family rifle elk hunts was not over crowded, I killed a bull with my bow and almost wished I still had a tag, hardly anyone in the area, And there was alot of elk running around, it tough hunting but they are there. I know people that kill elk every year, I know people that don't even see an elk every year, I think that says more about the hunters then it does the elk population.

Birds and small game just don't do it for me, never has. I hunt coyote's to pass the time in the big game off season.
 
Hi, biased human here. I guide and regularly enjoy hunting and killing upper age class bulls. In fact I usually get to do 5 or so a year.

The current plan is unsustainable. Frankly, it’s a sour bill of goods that’s been parroted to you as a wonderland of promise.

If you consider yourself a ‘trophy hunter’ perhaps you have said something similar whilst conversating amongst peers:

‘I’ve killed plenty of animals and would rather wait for a good one’

Or maybe this?

‘It’s not a big deal if I only get a tag once or twice but it better be good when I do’

That’s a perfectly acceptable way to hunt and kudos to you, but just for a second journey with me. Take 2 steps out of your self serving selfish mindset and consider how that sounds to a 12 year old kid who now has to swallow the stark reality that even general season and antlerless options aren’t a sure bet. Or to a father who is dying to get his kids out, but worked the day the OTC tags went on sale and didn’t make it in the 4 hr time frame it took to sell everyone of them. Or the grandfather who remembers deer camp and has been looking forward to the years he gets to take his grandkids out but instead of getting a good chunk of years doing that the kids get disenchanted waiting for some fabled draw that never happens and before he knows it, the interest and magic is gone and the tradition dies with this generation on the shoulders of a few seasoned hunters who thought they wanted their own playground.

We still have frequent hunting opportunities available it’s true, but trends and broad math paint a very very stark picture about how that looks in the next 5-10 years. Just 5 years ago we had 300,000 big game applicants, last year? 590,000. There are 90,000~applicants vying for 2200 LE elk tags. That’s a 45 year average, new applicants on the Monroe face a 100+ year wait.

In our own personal bubbles we look at this and understand the system, how to navigate it, and the options in front of us. We are the very small minority, gotta look at the average hunter who just apply’s every year with no idea of the hopelessness ahead of them. Take a humble walk in those shoes and attempt to see that the greater good for preserving a heritage that is under fire is to serve that group of people.

Now this is all just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it, it’s much of the sentiment that drove decision making on the plan. If we thought we could have got it passed, I think the drive was there to scrap LE completely. We came up with a proposal that shifted management in a reasonable way, understanding that significant changes need to be made.
I understand your sentiment and the need for change. But change has been needed for many many years. What’s utah DWR going to do when there’s 5 million applicants for hunting ? Sell 2 million tags ? The hunting heritage has and is almost extinct now. Do you really think that it’s going to come back by selling unlimited tags ? The only way families still get together is if 1 or 2 members draw a tag now.
It’s also impossible to manage the elk herds at 5 million animals as well.
My son is 31 and has been putting in for a good LE tag since age 15. So now it’s ok to make sure he draws a low quality bull on a limited entry hunt. I get it - the damage has already been done. And he has all but thrown in the towel. So this deals with way more than the new hunter. 590,000 tags = 5.9 million in application revenue -hmm…
Did DWR say no to any of that money ?

I am also ok with taking a year off to help build the herds every other year or more as an example.
A plan is needed - I just don’t believe the current plan is the fix-all. And I don’t trust the DWR to manage utahs elk as thier past track record is seriously flawed. More options are needed at a table that has been decided by 75% that are not hunters - but paid for 100% by hunters. And I stand by the way RAC meetings are addressed as proof that hunters interests really don’t matter. I’m not being politically correct on this plan and really don’t care to be.
 
I get into elk every year in the uintahs, I see mature deer every year on my general hunts. This year the area my family rifle elk hunts was not over crowded, I killed a bull with my bow and almost wished I still had a tag, hardly anyone in the area, And there was alot of elk running around, it tough hunting but they are there. I know people that kill elk every year, I know people that don't even see an elk every year, I think that says more about the hunters then it does the elk population.

Birds and small game just don't do it for me, never has. I hunt coyote's to pass the time in the big game off season.

I think the real question is how is your deer hunt going and why are you posting on here when there’s a big buck to find? :unsure::ROFLMAO:
 
Hope everyone has made a comment for this.
My thoughts.
Alternate spike hunts to every other year,
3point or better for all deer units
All seasons to a 10 day max limit.
Allow more bull tags after three years
Allow longer archery hunts after 2 years
Allow a rifle hunt for 5 days for deer from oct31st to Nov 4th. Regardless of week ending date.
If you get a general season tag. Volunteer hours on habitat restoration for possible LE bonus point.
 
What are everyone’s thoughts on adding these six units to the any bull units ? Are these units going to justify selling unlimited tags to any bull tag holders for the 2nd season ? I’ve looked a little closer but can’t get absolute details on the boundaries yet but I believe 5 of the 6 units possess elk numbers that are really low on cow elk as observed personally. Just hunted the Nine mile Anthro w a tag holder and the numbers were very low. Central mountains (I could be wrong) is in the foothills of Moroni where elk normally winter. Paunsagaunt is another Henry’s mountain unit - very low numbers. Box Elder is almost entirely private where the elk are. West Desert- could be ok. And Book Cliffs I don’t know very well.

Six additional general-season any bull elk hunting units in the Nine Mile, Paunsaugunt, West Desert, Central Mountains, Book Cliffs and Box Elder areas across the state

Just asking opinions to see if these 6 additional units justify unlimited any bull permits to be sold.

Thanks
 
What are everyone’s thoughts on adding these six units to the any bull units ? Are these units going to justify selling unlimited tags to any bull tag holders for the 2nd season ? I’ve looked a little closer but can’t get absolute details on the boundaries yet but I believe 5 of the 6 units possess elk numbers that are really low on cow elk as observed personally. Just hunted the Nine mile Anthro w a tag holder and the numbers were very low. Central mountains (I could be wrong) is in the foothills of Moroni where elk normally winter. Paunsagaunt is another Henry’s mountain unit - very low numbers. Box Elder is almost entirely private where the elk are. West Desert- could be ok. And Book Cliffs I don’t know very well.

Six additional general-season any bull elk hunting units in the Nine Mile, Paunsaugunt, West Desert, Central Mountains, Book Cliffs and Box Elder areas across the state

Just asking opinions to see if these 6 additional units justify unlimited any bull permits to be sold.

Thanks
Sure add them but make consessions somewhere else. It will spread out the general season tags for sure so there are not as many people on top of each other. On the flip side, maybe turn a few areas into LE units.
 
Hope everyone has made a comment for this.
My thoughts.
Alternate spike hunts to every other year,
3point or better for all deer units
All seasons to a 10 day max limit.
Allow more bull tags after three years
Allow longer archery hunts after 2 years
Allow a rifle hunt for 5 days for deer from oct31st to Nov 4th. Regardless of week ending date.
If you get a general season tag. Volunteer hours on habitat restoration for possible LE bonus point.
Every third year have it open bull on spike units
 

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