EHD and bluetongue vs CWD

J

jims

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The CPW adopted late rifle season dates plus an increase in doe and buck tags in the present 5 year strategy. Their reasoning behind this has been to harvest older age class bucks when they are more vulnerable during the rut and to decrease the deer population. The strategy is to harvest older age class bucks that possibly transfer CWD across larger areas during the rut. This in turn would slow and possibly prevent the spread of CWD. Is this in fact a wise strategy and is it really impacting CWD...who knows?

CWD prions have been in Colorado for over 40 years and there has been no major die-offs in Colorado or any other state during this time. The prions last years in the soil and Colo and neighboring state's deer are doing fine without culling projects or increases in harvest. Predators have done an excellent job of killing the few CWD sick deer that exist the past 40 years.

From what I've seen and heard, EHD and bluetongue have devastated areas in Nebraska, Kansas, and elsewhere the past few years. The presence of the disease is not uncommon in times of drought and hot weather, especially where wildlife congregate around small water holes where the disease-carrying biting midge lives. I just did a search and found that EDH/bluetongue are becoming more and more common in scattered counties in Colorado and Wyoming. In contrast to CWD, EHD and bluetongue have totally wiped out both whitetails and to a lesser extent mule deer in Nebraska, Kansas, and elsewhere. EHD/bluetongue has also hammered the antelope population in a few regions in Wyoming during dry years.

One of my biggest concerns is if the CPW is setting Colorado up for a catastrophic mule deer losses with their current 5 year plan. The CPW main focus and attention has always been on CWD and lowering the deer population in Colorado. In contrast, EHD has resulted in catastrophic losses in our neighboring states. CWD losses over the past 40 years are diminutive compared to EHD losses. There are no known epidemic losses of deer in Colorado or elsewhere from CWD ever recorded! My concern is what happens if EHD plus CWD are prevalent in Colorado and other states? The combination could be horrific?

My thoughts are that Colorado and other states should possibly shift their thoughts to the possible catastrophic losses that exist from EHD/bluetonue or the combo of EHD plus CWD. Is the CPW setting Colorado deer up for catastrophic losses with their present 5 year structure? Could big game epidemic losses from EHD/bluetongue be more significant than what we've encountered from CWD the past 40 years....I believe so!
 
Oh It's Impacting The Deer Herds!

Once They Shoot Em Down To Nothing We'll Get Rid Of The CWD!

There Will Always Be Something Worse Show Up Though!
 
Honestly you are comparing apples and oranges. Totally different diseases. Heck apples and oranges are more closely related to each other than EHD and CWD.

EHD is a devastating disease in certain years. But the amount of virus out there is inconsistencies fluctuation. Also the deer don't give it to each other.

CWD on the other hand is in a constantly rising state. It takes much longer for a prion to break down than it does for deer to make more of the prions. Also we have seen herds of deer decline in known CWD hotspots.

The other thing that makes state game departments pay notice to CWD is an interfamilial jump. We have no evidence that one has occurred. We have science that says it's not impossible. If that jump occurs deer hunting industry will become federally regulated. YOU DON'T WANT THAT.



As for culling deer for CWD I am unsure of its effectiveness. I know in penned deer depopulation. Is your only effective choice.

I don't know about mule deer but in whitetails they have noticed that dropping the average age of buck mortality and lowering your buck to doe ratio typically causes a overall population increase.
 
I'm aware EHD and CWD are different. Just bringing to light the fact that EHD can and will decimate localized big game herds in a short interval of time. Take a look at what's going on in Nebraska, Kansas and elsewhere with EHD. We haven't seen that with CWD in those same areas. I'm aware that CWD is slow and deliberate but we have not seen CWD and it's prions totally wipe out localized populations of any big game species and CWD has been around for 40 years!

The combination of EHD, CWD, predators, winterkill, loss of critical winter range, etc could potentially devastate populations of deer. With all of these factors decreasing our mule deer in Colorado can you honestly say that it is wise to increase doe tags and offer late rifle season hunts where deer numbers in Colorado are already struggling?
 
I'm not saying it is but it can be effective in dealing with limiting factors such as diseases.

One example is quail. Many people don't understand why quail limits are set so high. Especially with populations keep getting smaller and more fragmented. When in reality they don't understand that without high bag limits the remaining quail populations are likely to crash.

You say CWD has been around for 40 years. Well it hasn't been everywhere it is now for 40 years and it's spreading. We have seen CWD reduce numbers of deer in localized populations just at slower rates.

I agree EHD is very bad. I hope they figure out how to manage it better. But we can't ignore CWD because some may believe something else is worse.
 
Hmm...Idaho is in panic mode as we speak with CWD. Unit 14, across the river frm my house. Pumping hundreds of late season tags for mule deer and whiteys into the once hard to draw mule deer area.Healthy bucks, some mature, most not are hitting the dirt this very minute. I drew a Xtra doe tag over there.I threw it in the trash, hoping to save at least one deer. I haven't seen the science to prove CWD is the devastating disease they say it is. I know over harvest can be devastating. Time will tell.
 
Culling the herds because of CWD is terrible miss management. Nowhere has CWD had major impacts on deer or elk herds.
You say deer herds have slid in “hot” areas of CWD. What about the elk herds? They have grown. CWD is not the cause of the deer slide, poor management is to blame.
Let Mother Nature play it out. Don’t kill them all off in hopes that it will help, it won’t.
 
I feel sad about Idahos mass slaughter. You would think they would have learned from Colos poor results experimenting with mass culling projects 35 to 40 years ago! If Idaho is anything like Colo it will take years for deer to rebound, CWD prions will remain present in the soil, and CWD will continue to spread. 40 years later we still have healthy deer in those same areas that were culled. You would think prions would build over time and deer would slowly but surely be eliminated but that hasn’t happened even in the worse CWD areas.

The WyoG&F tried to adopt a late rut hunt west of Laramie this year to combat CWD. There was a public meeting and outcry. The WG&F biologist was given bloody hell from the public for the same reasons Fullthrottle mentioned above and was made out to look like a fool. Thank goodness the late season culling project was canned!

There is no practical evidence of CWD ever wiping out any herds and no evidence anywhere that culling practices have proven successful in preventing the spread.
 
EHD is nasty. I have talked to local wardens and they dont care because its wiping out thick whitetail herds. But if a whitetail test positive for CWD they are all of sudden in a panic. Makes me wonder what the real agenda is behind this.

Where did CWD start? colorado right? and why is this. What did they do in the 1960's to start CWD? the info is very hard to find.

Anymore I will not take samples in to get tested for CWD and if testing is not mandatory i will tell the check station that they can not check. They have no solution. Its kinda like covid, lets get as many positive test as we can and cry how bad it is. IF the test is mandatory they get their test with my 2 cents how crazy this is.

When my deer use to get tested i was harvesting big mature bucks and here comes the positive test. Well hell the buck was healthy. They always say the same thing that the deer just got CWD and he was going to die soon. back when my grandpa had his farm that i hunted for whitetails i watched these deer for several years. never saw a sign of CWD killing deer. Found dead fawns from coyotes, bucks that go shot that ran onto my grandpas farm and died and so. The only mass dead bodies i found was EHD and they all had one thing common they were dead by a body of water because the deer over heat and go to water.

I am not buying this CWD crap. I am over it, over the excuses and over their plans to cull deer, now they say the prions can live in the ground up to 10-16 years, so culling deer what do you solve?

i really enjoy uncle Teds videos with Joe Rogan about CWD, some valid points are brought up. I know a lot of people for some reason hate Ted Nudget but the video is worth a listen and he actually talks about the history of CWD and how several states have failed horrible culling attempts. At least he brings up some points when the game fish here wont listen to what i have to say and a response of its 100% fatal. Hell at the last meeting i was at they showed a picture of a deer with CWD saying this is in wyoming, i got up and spouted that is an old picture online that has been going around for years and they used to their advantage to brain wash us that this is bad.
 
www.jhnewsandguide.com

Chronic wasting disease kills 19% of deer herd annually

Chronic wasting disease will cause a Wyoming deer herd to go virtually extinct in 41 years, a five-year study predicts.
www.jhnewsandguide.com www.jhnewsandguide.com


JIMMS, quit lying to people. I don't think the deer heard will be totally gone in 41 years but it is decreasing annually from CWD.

Guys you better wake up. You better have a better plan than a teenage girl who says, "I'm over it".

I want game departments and veterinarians to get busy with EHD also but you don't just ignore CWD.

There's no grand conspiracy. There's no plan to screw over hunters, using CWD as an excuse. IT IS A GIANT THREAT TO WHETHER YOUR KIDS GET TO HUNT NORTH AMERICAN DEER.
 
EHD doesn’t typically kill mule deer. It’s probably the best thing to ever happen to mule deer in muley/whitetail cohabitation areas as a matter of fact. We had an almost 100% whitetail die off in western ND last year, drought and a late frost are what perpetuate EHD, but it’s the best thing ever for our mule deer herds. Blue tongue has nothing to do with anything you are talking about, that’s in sheep. I will agree with you on the CWD thing, the high fence deer farmers have figured out the resistant genetics and are currently breeding it out of their herd, the worst thing G&F can do in the wild herds is not allow it to run it’s course. I remember as a kid hearing about how CWD was gonna be the end of deer hunting as we know it. Killing fawns in July in WI. Lunacy. The good old days of whitetail hunting are here as we speak in the Midwest, despite CWD and all its propaganda. Whitetail or muley, the deers worst enemy is a 30-06, absolute fact. Deer get old if we don’t shoot ‘em, that’s a universal truth.
 
and in wyoming we got deer herds struggling with no CWD,

Good news about EHD is it comes through every 5-10 years. This last year it hit a area and almost wiped the whitetail herd and 5 miles down the river the EHD never touched the deer. EHD was very spotty where it hit. I dont like it when EHD comes through cause i would rather hunt whitetails than muley.

CWD not falling for the studies. For you colorado guys what was the worst thing they did when they threw a fit about CWD, was it the it the cullling the herds?? how did colorados plan help? Best thing we can do is learn what not to do from them.

I am more worried about their stupid ideas of wanting to cull the herds. That right there will cause a huge decrease in populations.
 
Culling obviously didn’t prevent the spread of CWD in Colo. The prions still scattered across Colo and there has not been any die-offs like localized epidemics of EHD. Many areas in Colo have had prions in soil for 20 to over 30 years. The CPW quit CWD culling projects after their first one 40 years ago. They killed off almost the entire deer herd with hunters and sharp shooters. The deer are slowly but surely retuning even with prions still in the soil and CWD still present. Nothing has really changed after 40 years!

A buddy of mine that is an outfitter in Central Nebraska hardly has any deer to hunt in his localized area due to catastrophic EHD to both the whitetails plus mule deer. If you’ve had EHD in your area you know what epidemic die-offs are all about! I’ve yet to hear of any CWD epidemics across the entire US and it’s been in areas for over a 1/4 century.
 
jims said:
Culling obviously didn’t prevent the spread of CWD in Colo. The prions still scattered across Colo and there has not been any die-offs like localized epidemics of EHD. Many areas in Colo have had prions in soil for 20 to over 30 years. The CPW quit CWD culling projects after their first one 40 years ago. They killed off almost the entire deer herd with hunters and sharp shooters. The deer are slowly but surely retuning even with prions still in the soil and CWD still present. Nothing has really changed after 40 years!

A buddy of mine that is an outfitter in Central Nebraska hardly has any deer to hunt in his localized area due to catastrophic EHD to both the whitetails plus mule deer. If you’ve had EHD in your area you know what epidemic die-offs are all about! I’ve yet to hear of any CWD epidemics across the entire US and it’s been in areas for over a 1/4 century.
Click to expand...
Read the article I posted above Jim's.

Do you here what you are saying?

Colorado culls deer and then there are no die offs??????? That actually sounds like it may work.

You don't like something you don't understand so you are talking in circles.

EHD and CWD are totally different diseases. You don't manage them the same way.
 
You are absolutely correct, EHD actually kills truckloads of deer and cwd has only thinned deer populations even though it’s prions have been present up to 40 years. Pretty simple facts with no circles

There are lots of studies on CWD. Using “models” to predict something with so many unknowns and variables as CWD is a bunch of bull. If you can show me one deer herd in Colo that has epidemic loss of CWD losses that would catch my attention. There hasn’t been one in 40 years! In fact, I’m not aware of any epidemic CWD losses ever recorded anywhere in the US! EDH, there have been many epidemic losses across the US just in 2022!
 
jims said:
There are lots of studies on CWD. Using “models” to predict something with so many unknowns and variables as CWD is a bunch of bull. If you can show me one deer herd in Colo that has epidemic loss of CWD losses that would catch my attention. There hasn’t been one in 40 years! In fact, I’m not aware of any epidemic CWD losses ever recorded anywhere in the US! EDH, there have been many epidemic losses across the US just in 2022!
Click to expand...
So culling worked????

Would you say culling worked if the deer herd in Colorado had been decimated by CWD?????

You aren't making any sense.

You keep saying there is no evidence of epidemic deaths from CWD. I JUST POSTED ONE. GO READ. A %19 herd loss in a year, EVERY YEAR, is a damn disaster. If %19 of the US population died this year this country would go into meltdown.

Learn how to read and learn how to use logic.
 
I've taken my time responding because I wanted to read the entire article you mentioned above in detail plus research CWD culling practices a little closer. The publication Tristate mentioned above actually states that there is a 19% calculated annual loss. In reality, if you read the entire publication you will find that there was only a 4% deer loss from 2010 to 2014.

They state that there was 14 to 19% loss in 2011 and 2012 when there was drought...not surprising! My guess is weaker, stressed CWD deer will succumb to drought, predators, winterkill at higher rates than 100% healthy deer. The deer population has declined dramatically throughout Wyo from drought, winterkill, predators, EHD, etc where there is little to no CWD present. They are basing their conclusions on predicted models....I don't think I need to go any further!

Here is a long-term study that was conducted on Table Mtn, Colorado where no hunting or culling practice has been occurred and there has been an extremely high CWD prevalence the past 30+ years (since the early 1980's). In fact, they state in the publication that there has been close to 30% CWD prevalence since 2005 (the past 17 years). This and other studies state the importance and benefit of predators in thinning the sick and weak CWD infected deer. There has been no catastrophic die-off in this herd since CWD's first recorded appearance in the early 1980's, even with extreme prevalence, no hunting, and no culling! You may find this very informative!


ARTICLE

Apparent stability masks underlying change in a mule deer herd with unmanaged chronic wasting disease

Mark C. Fisher1,3, Ryan A. Prioreschi2,3, Lisa L. Wolfe1, Jonathan P. Runge1, Karen A. Griffin1, Heather M. Swanson2& Michael W. Miller 1✉

The contagious prion disease “chronic wasting disease”(CWD) infects mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) and related species. Unchecked epidemics raise ecological, socioeconomic, and public health concerns. Prion infection shortens a deer’s lifespan, and when prevalence (proportion of adults infected) becomes sufficiently high CWD can affect herd dynamics.
Understanding population responses over time is key to forecasting long-term impacts. Here we describe unexpected stability in prevalence and abundance in a mule deer herd where CWD has been left unmanaged. High apparent prevalence (~30%) since at least 2005 likely drove observed changes in the proportion and age distribution of wild-type native prion protein (PRNP) gene homozygotes among deer sampled. Predation by mountain lions (Puma concolor) may be helping keep CWD in check. Despite stable appearances, prion disease nonetheless impairs adult survival and likely resilience in this deer herd, limiting its potential for growth despite refuge from hunter harvest and favorable habitat and winter conditions
gap had closed at Table Mesa since 2005 (Table 1). Overall, apparent prevalence had not changed measurably from that observed 13 years earlier (29% [20%–40%],n=85; two-tailed Fisher’s exact test P=0.522). On the surface, deer abundance and demography also appeared surprisingly unchanged considering the apparent duration of sustained high CWD incidence.

Results and discussion

On the surface, deer abundance and demography also appeared surprisingly unchanged considering the apparent duration of sustained high CWD incidence. Mark-resight surveys done December 2018 estimated total deer abundance at 269 (95% CL 227–321) individuals, including 139 females, 64 males (M:F ratio~46:100), and 67 juveniles. Essentially the same number of individuals had been estimated from surveys done in December 2005 using the same counting routes and methods5. Mean (±95% confidence interval) estimated ages among deer captured in 2018–2019 were 4.4 (±0.5) years for females and 3.5 (±0.3) years for males. Despite absence of sport hunting in the study area, none of the 46 males we captured exceeded 5.5 years of age. As with overall abundance, mean ages were similar to those estimated from deer captured in 2005 (females: 3.9 [±0.5] years; males: 4.1 [±0.6] years). This superficial stability masked more dynamic underlying changes within the herd.

Only one 225FF individual has been encountered at Table Mesa
since 2005 (n=231 total sampled). Similar scarcity occurred in
the South Converse (2 of 143)8and other infected Wyoming mule deer herds (1 of 1,156)19. These field observations may lend support to the notion18 that 225FF individuals have fitness
disadvantages compared to wild type mule deer outweighing the benefits of prion disease resistance. The precise mechanism for a potential F allele effect on mule deer fitness is unknown.

However, we noticed that ~36% (9/25) of the 225*F deer sampled had low (<5; ref. 24) lymphoid follicle counts in their
tissue biopsies, whereas only ~16% (12/74) of 225SS deer samples had low follicle counts (two-tailed Fisher’s exact test P=0.049). APRNP polymorphism more broadly influencing the immune system could be an avenue for balancing selection9,19 that may warrant further consideration and study.

Lions and prions and deer.

Mountain lion predation accounted for at least ten of the 21 mortalities among all 51 telemetry-monitored deer during
2018–2020. With annual mortality attributed to mountain lion
predation running ~0.36 among infected deer vs. ~0.08 among
apparently uninfected deer, infected deer showed relatively high
vulnerability to predation similar to that observed previously at
Table Mesa5. Only three of the 10 infected deer clearly suc-
cumbed to clinical CWD. Beyond the losses to predation and
disease, vehicle collisions accounted for three deaths. For five, the cause of death could not be determined with certainty.

Mountain lions have been shown to selectively prey upon
CWD-infected mule deer25, and infected deer appear relatively
vulnerable to predation5,8. Mountain lions killed at least 18 of the 53 CWD-infected 225SS deer monitored during our two field studies at Table Mesa. The survival distribution of 26 infected deer dying in end-stage CWD differed from that of infected deer killed by mountain lions (Mantel’s logrank test, two-tailed, without continuity correction, P=0.037;Fig. 3).

The observed pattern seems consistent with the modest
selective pressure expected from an ambush predator25,27. Early onset of prion shedding by infected mule deer29,30 likely affords ample time for shedding to occur before infected individuals become vulnerable to predation. This outcome aligns with other field data and with modelling illustrating the extent of selective pressure needed to lower CWD incidence27,31. Human intolerance imposes bounds on mountain lion abundance32,33 that may limit the potential impacts of predation on CWD incidence at Table Mesa and elsewhere. When of sufficient magnitude, sport hunting could complement natural predation by removing a larger proportion of the infected subpopulation27,34—its absence from the Table Mesa mule deer herd’s range thus may constrain the overall expectations for lowering apparent prevalence and incidence. Nonetheless, predation by mountain lions seems likely to have influenced epidemic dynamics at Table Mesa to some extent and could have helped stabilize apparent prevalence since 2005.

Only one 225FF individual has been encountered at Table Mesa
since 2005 (n=231 total sampled). Similar scarcity occurred in
the South Converse (2 of 143)8and other infected Wyoming mule deer herds (1 of 1,156)19. These field observations may lend support to the notion18 that 225FF individuals have fitness
disadvantages compared to wild type mule deer outweighing the benefits of prion disease resistance. The precise mechanism for a potential F allele effect on mule deer fitness is unknown.
However, we noticed that ~36% (9/25) of the 225*F deer
sampled had low (<5; ref. 24) lymphoid follicle counts in their
tissue biopsies, whereas only ~16% (12/74) of 225SS deer samples had low follicle counts (two-tailed Fisher’s exact test P=0.049). APRNP polymorphism more broadly influencing the immune system could be an avenue for balancing selection9,19 that may warrant further consideration and study.

Conclusions

Reassessing the Table Mesa herd after more than a decade
revealed unexpected superficial stability in apparent CWD pre-
valence and deer abundance in the time since our original study
ended. Some combination of predation by mountain lions and
perhaps subtle genetic shifting in the mule deer host or uni-
dentified environmental factors may have contributed to the net
absence of measurable change, at least on the surface. Despite the appearance of stability, the Table Mesa deer herd seems far from healthy. High disease incidence appears to be truncating the age distribution of the otherwise dominant wild-type individuals. Moreover, low adult survival sustained for over a decade likely impairs the resilience of this herd and limits its potential for growth despite an abundance of available habitat and relatively mild winter conditions. Periodic reassessment of this and other infected cervid herds will inform on long-term implications of CWD outbreaks.
 
Now you are making crap up. It doesn't say that in the article.

So what Doctors ran the study you posted.

Absolutely mind blowing that anyone that knows anything about a prion disease would consider a %30 infection rate to be stable. According to science the mortality rate of deer with CWD is over %30 annually. That means at a bare minimum you are loosing %9 annually to the disease. NOBODY CONSIDERS LOOSING %9 OF A HERD ANNUALLY "STABLE".
 
Are you aware of the long term CWD study conducted in Estes Park? It's another study that is testament that culling nearly every CWD positive deer in an area barely impacts CWD persistence and prevalence rates. Similar to the Table Mountain study in the above post, CWD has been in the Estes Park Valley for 30+ years with no catastrophic die-offs. I find it fascinating that in both of these Colorado publications the authors mention the value of predators for suppressing CWD.

In the Estes Park study they use the same sampling methods as the one used in the Wyo study you mentioned above with tonsil-biopsies of live deer and then marked each deer so they could return and cull the deer that tested positive to CWD.


pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

EVALUATION OF A TEST AND CULL STRATEGY FOR REDUCING PREVALENCE OF CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE IN MULE DEER ( ODOCOILEUS HEMIONUS) - PubMed

We evaluated a test and cull strategy for lowering chronic wasting disease (CWD) prevalence in a naturally-infected, free-ranging mule deer ( Odocoileus hemionus) herd wintering in the town of Estes Park, Colorado, US and in nearby Rocky Mountain National Park. We tested 48-68% of the estimated...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Abstract​

We evaluated a test and cull strategy for lowering chronic wasting disease (CWD) prevalence in a naturally-infected, free-ranging mule deer ( Odocoileus hemionus) herd wintering in the town of Estes Park, Colorado, US and in nearby Rocky Mountain National Park.

We tested 48-68% of the estimated number of adult (≥1 yr old) deer annually for 5 yr via tonsil biopsy immunohistochemistry (IHC), collecting 1,251 samples from >700 individuals and removing IHC-positive deer. Among males, CWD prevalence during the last 3 yr of selective culling was lower (one-sided Fisher's exact test P=0.014) than in the period prior. In contrast, CWD prevalence among females before culling and after culling were equivalent ( P=0.777).

Our efforts to “test and cull” CWD-infected mule deer in the Estes Park and Rocky Mountain National Park area minimally stimulated a trend toward decreased prevalence among males and held prevalence static among females.

In some aspects, our culling of known CWD-positive animals simulated the effect of natural predators in the wild that exploit vulnerabilities and weakness when selecting prey. Although we detected some infected individuals well before clinical signs would have been discernible to a predator, at the herd level our testing effort likely was not as persistent or effective as that of natural predators. Our findings could lend credence to the potential role of predation−of sufficiently high intensity and duration−in helping suppress CWD outbreaks if CWD-positive individuals are preferentially targeted by predators (Wild et al. 2011).

Among males, CWD prevalence during the 3-yr after period (0.06) was lower (P=0.014) than during the before period (0.13; Table 1 and Fig. 2). In contrast, prevalence among females during the before and after periods were equivalent (P=0.777; Table 1 and Fig. 2). Estimated prevalence among hunter-harvested, adult male (0.09–0.11) and female (0.06–0.07) mule deer in the surrounding Big Thompson population also remained relatively unchanged during this same time period (Fig. 2 and Table S1).

1668819685869.png
 
CWD is givin the dead horse a beatdown again.

We did roll call a few years ago for anyone who has seen a dying deer stumbling around. There have been more bigfoot sightings by the members.

There should be tens of thousands of deer carcasses all across Colorado, but the culling has been so effective you can’t hardly find one anywhere.

Proof indeed.
 
Mtn lions, coyotes, and bears do a great job of picking off the few sick and weak deer in our area. I’m out hiking muley hills just about every day for work near ground 0 where CWD all got started and have only seen 1 sick deer back in around 1990. I’ve found scattered lion and coyote killed deer but who knows if they were sick.

I’ve heard that deer carcasses are scattered everywhere in epidemic EHD areas and no one hardly bats an eye!
 
jims said:
Mtn lions, coyotes, and bears do a great job of picking off the few sick and weak deer in our area. I’m out hiking muley hills just about every day for work near ground 0 where CWD all got started and have only seen 1 sick deer back in around 1990. I’ve found scattered lion and coyote killed deer but who knows if they were sick.

I’ve heard that deer carcasses are scattered everywhere in epidemic EHD areas and no one hardly bats an eye!
Click to expand...
EHD affects whitetail not mule deer herds. Not sure why you keep bringing up EHD in relation to mule deer.
 
jims said:
EHD actually does infect mule deer but often not to the extent of whitetails. It can also hit pronghorn pretty hard.

www.ehuntr.com

BLUETONGUE CONFIRMED IN COLORADO MULE DEER | EHUNTR

The Bluetongue virus was confirmed in Colorado mule deer. The deer in question were found dead in the Alamosa area. Likewise, EHD...
www.ehuntr.com www.ehuntr.com
Click to expand...
Here you go, it's climate change that killed the two mule deer.
www.durangoherald.com

In Colorado, wildlife disease is the next frontier of climate change

Colorado Parks and Wildlife announced last week that at least two mule deer had died of bluetongue disease in Alamosa. Bluetongue virus, a hemorrhagic disease that can devastate white-tailed deer pop...
www.durangoherald.com www.durangoherald.com
 
Here's another one from Washington state where 15% of collared mule deer does died of EHD plus gobs of whitetails. Also the mention of bighorn casualties from EHD in the same article.

www.gohunt.com

GOHUNT // The Hunting Company

GOHUNT empowers hunters with the tools, technology, gear, and resources they need to get the most out of their time in the field.
www.gohunt.com www.gohunt.com
 
jm77 said:
Here you go, it's climate change that killed the two mule deer.
www.durangoherald.com

In Colorado, wildlife disease is the next frontier of climate change

Colorado Parks and Wildlife announced last week that at least two mule deer had died of bluetongue disease in Alamosa. Bluetongue virus, a hemorrhagic disease that can devastate white-tailed deer pop...
www.durangoherald.com www.durangoherald.com
Click to expand...
I suppose it’s just another reason to kill all the deer.

I see a lot of deer in SW Colorado every day, and I have NEVER seen a disoriented deer foaming at the mouth. I’m either lucky or need to get out more :rolleyes:
 
Bluehair said:
I suppose it’s just another reason to kill all the deer.

I see a lot of deer in SW Colorado every day, and I have NEVER seen a disoriented deer foaming at the mouth. I’m either lucky or need to get out more :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That statement is so true. So many of us out in the woods and I still have yet to see a deer near death due to cwd, wyo game and fish act like thousands of them are near death
 
jims said:
Here's another one from Washington state where 15% of collared mule deer does died of EHD plus gobs of whitetails. Also the mention of bighorn casualties from EHD in the same article.

www.gohunt.com

GOHUNT // The Hunting Company

GOHUNT empowers hunters with the tools, technology, gear, and resources they need to get the most out of their time in the field.
www.gohunt.com www.gohunt.com
Click to expand...
Keep posting these articles with no real good sources or clarity. I'm sure EHD has killed some mule deer. Just tell me how many mule deer you personally have found along streams, or other water, dead. The number is zero for me throughout decades of being in the outdoors. Meanwhile, I have found countless whitetails and a few antelope. We've been through two severe EHD breakouts in central Wyoming in the last three years and it's certainly not apparent mule deer were dying along with whitetails.

EHD has never been a big killer of mule deer compared to CWD and predators.
 
Agree with jm77. SE Mt is ground zero for EHD, I have found hundreds of whitetails that died form EHD. Just about every year at least a few whitetails die of EHD. Some years it was so bad that there was three to four dead deer in every bend in the river. The valley just smelled of death.
I have found maybe a half dozen dead mule deer in the last 40 years. EHD is not a big danger to mule deer numbers, It may be the only thing that is keeping whitetails from displacing mule deer in SE MT.
 
As a rancher, a hunter and a veterinarian, CWD worries me more than EHD. Kind of like the tortoise and the hare. Yes, EHD (the hare) can zoom into an area with great speed and be catastrophic periodically in some areas. But then it burns out for a few years until conditions are right again. CWD (the tortoise) plods along year end and year out quietly spreading to more and more areas. Eventually it will be in all areas and does seem to affect whitetail and mule deer pretty equally. Elk too but not as bad.

It also worries me that it makes them more susceptible to predation. Nature will always try and reach a steady state but I am concerned about in the long run making it harder to kill mature animals, regardless of tag numbers.

That said, mass killings DONT WORK and I just can’t buy that killing more of the mature bucks will slow its spread appreciably. Especially in mountainous areas where they all share the same winter range anyway. So stop handing out buck tags like candy! I

But saying that EHD is worse than CWD, even if true, is a statement that could very well switch through the years. So even if EHD is worse in the short term, I suspect that down the road CWD will win that race.

I just hope someone comes up with something that would stop its spread. Otherwise we have to hope nature finds a way to evolve past it.

I will tell you the absolute best way to slow down its spread! Quit hauling deer in trailers to new areas! Unless all those deer have been tested with the live test.
 
If a disease makes a portion of the population more susceptible to predators, that throws the “balance” out of wack. Tips it even more toward predators. In the long run that can’t be good for maintaining a healthy stable and huntable population.
 
txhunter58 said:
If a disease makes a portion of the population more susceptible to predators, that throws the “balance” out of wack. Tips it even more toward predators. In the long run that can’t be good for maintaining a healthy stable and huntable population.
Click to expand...
It seems the sick deer are also more susceptible to hunters and even to vehicles on the highways. If deer are weak or sick is it not better they become the prey rather the the strong and healthy animals? Just sayin...
 
Having any disease that makes part of the population sick and weak can’t be good.
It will always be predominantly the young, injured, sick, weak…..that are easier prey. Every time to introduce something new that makes MORE individuals easier prey, you weaken the population as a whole.

Easier meals means more coyotes, wolves, etc. More predators is not great for prey. Or hunters
 
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What several of us have been saying all along is why have cull hunts, increase in tags, and late rut season dates if the few weak and sick deer are being picked off by predators?

Predators are great at picking out the weak and sick critters. Increasing tags in hopes of killing only a few CWD bucks at the expense of a high proportion of healthy bucks harvested seems senseless.
 
txhunter58 said:
Having any disease that makes part of the population sick and weak can’t be good.
It will always be predominantly the young, injured, sick, weak…..that are easier prey. Every time to introduce something new that makes MORE individuals easier prey, you weaken the population as a whole.

Easier meals means more coyotes, wolves, etc. More predators is not great for prey. Or hunters
Click to expand...
Not true...the diseases are random, there isn't any specific part of the population that is more susceptible.

The way the diseases spread is mostly through contact, not because of a specific trait in the population.

I think you have it backwards, the animals that survive a disease outbreak or have some immunity, strengthens the herd, doesn't weaken it.

You know survival of the fittest and all that.
 
jims said:
What several of us have been saying all along is why have cull hunts, increase in tags, and late rut season dates if the few weak and sick deer are being picked off by predators?

Predators are great at picking out the weak and sick critters. Increasing tags in hopes of killing only a few CWD bucks at the expense of a high proportion of healthy bucks harvested seems senseless.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, there is no proven track record that increasing tags will help this issue
 
BuzzH said:
Not true...the diseases are random, there isn't any specific part of the population that is more susceptible.

The way the diseases spread is mostly through contact, not because of a specific trait in the population.

I think you have it backwards, the animals that survive a disease outbreak or have some immunity, strengthens the herd, doesn't weaken it.

You know survival of the fittest and all that.
Click to expand...
That’s only true if animals evolve to be resistant to the disease. So far there is only a glimmer of hope that that could happen. There is no real evidence that any resistance has developed yet even after 50 years

Normal diseases kill animals pretty quickly, so the ones that survive get to pass on their genetics. But that doesn’t happen with his disease. Even infected individuals can pass their genetic material because it doesn’t kill quickly. But I will be extremely happy if nature finds a way to evolve resistance to this organism. If you know of any studies that show this is happening somewhere, I would love to see it.

That’s one of the biggest reasons why I feel like it’s wrong to increase tags for bucks. How can it be a good thing evolution wise to kill the biggest and the best off. It makes no sense.
 
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txhunter58 said:
That’s only true if animals evolve to be resistant to the disease. So far there is only a glimmer of hope that that could happen. There is no real evidence that any resistance has developed yet even after 50 years

Normal diseases kill animals pretty quickly, so the ones that survive get to pass on their genetics. But that doesn’t happen with his disease. Even infected individuals can pass their genetic material because it doesn’t kill quickly. But I will be extremely happy if nature finds a way to evolve resistance to this organism. If you know of any studies that show this is happening somewhere, I would love to see it.

That’s one of the biggest reasons why I feel like it’s wrong to increase tags for bucks. How can it be a good thing evolution wise to kill the biggest and the best off. It makes no sense.
Click to expand...
I completely agree with you on increasing bucks tags. Huge mistake, but there is no doubt that some deer and elk are more resistant through their genetic code.

A study was done at the Sybille unit where G&F brought around 30 elk calves and placed them on CWD infected ground. All died of CWD but one. "Lucky" lived into her teens without getting CWD. In the wild, with her resistant genetic code, she would have bought perhaps many more calves than other cow elk so be happy because nature already is finding a way.

On my property and surrounding area, we went through a CWD spell from the late 90's until about 2008, when we had the last positive test on a deer. Since then we see no wasting deer like in the past and all the hunter harvested deer, whitetail and mule deer, have been tested with the same negative result. That's fourteen years! Conversely, we continue to find one or two elk a year with the disease. What else could be the conclusion other than deer genetics that are highly resistant to CWD?
 
I hope you are right. Cause 1 in 30 isn’t great odds. Especially for elk that seem to be a little more resistant than deer in the wild. Your property results aren’t scientific based, but certainly sounds good and does give hope. That said, maybe the sick ones are being taken out by predators …? how is the overall population currently numbers wise?

All in all, nature beats our solutions hands down. The biggest difference on this disease is that I truly believe it is man made. So that can throw nature a curve.
 
There is no doubt that mature bucks that have endured years of poor winter conditions, disease, and predators carry the best genetics in the herd. There is also likelihood they carry the best genetic alleles in the herd to battle CWD.
 
This is a dangerous over simplification of what cervids are up against.

First, we are starting to see that there are a few variants of CWD. So while a genetic sequence might make a deer less susceptible to one variant it may do absolutely nothing for another.

Second all of this is based off of speculation from a study on one species and has shown nothing for other deer species.

Third if this is the answer for surviving one disease you are actually increasing the odds of extinction by another contagion introduced into a genetic bottle neck.

Fourth, we aren't just trying to stop an extinction event. We are trying to insure sustainable populations to support big game hunting.
 
So Tristate why on earth has there NEVER been an epidemic loss of mule deer or whitetails? We are all waiting with that never happening?

How come in epidemic areas where it started in 1981 and prions continue to build and build each year for 40+ years there has been 0 catastrophic die-offs? There are healthy deer roaming those hills today.

Plain and simple the deer are resilient and continue to pass along alleles for resistance. Deer populations today are sustainable and doing fine even in the epicenter of where CWD prions have existed and have been building in soil for 30 to 40+ years!

Predators do a fantastic job of culling the sick and weak!
 
Populations of deer in CWD hot spots have declined.

Quit lying to these people Jims.

Like I said before. We aren't trying to stop an extinction event. We are trying to insure 2 things.
Huntable stable Populations of big game and public health threats.

If you want to cut your own throat and believe some horse spit pipedream of mountain lions fixing deer herds go get ya some. That ain't reality and you don't have a single state wildlife agency or real science that will back that crap up.
 
I think the fish and game and money selling tags are worse than the mountain lions! Idaho is in the process of killing off deer for CWD in unit 14 rt now and are up to 150 already killed. I’m sure the majority of those killed are healthy deer!! IMO
 
Tristate we’ve gone around in circles on this issue and it’s obvious we both have totally different views.

what is the CWD prevalence rate today vs 20 years ago in Larimer County, Colo where it all started 42+ years ago? Not much different and there are healthy mature bucks running around breeding does! If CWD is so bad why hasn’t the prevalence rate continued to exponentially increased like they predicted back in the 1980’s?

Why did the CPW give up on culling projects back in the early 1980’s? It did absolutely nothing!

It’s pretty obvious that more and more prions should exist in the soil after 40 years. It’s currently impossible to totally eliminate those prions from the soil so what good is it to harvest more mature bucks that possibly carry the very best genetics and alleles that may be resistant?

I’m certainly glad Wyo hasn’t bitten into the culling and rut rifle season craze that does absolutely nothing!
 
You realize you talk about the culling didn't work but cwd hasn't increased in the same post???? You don't realize you are arguing against your own conclusions.
 
Heck no! Culling didn't work or there wouldn't be CWD spread across the entire state of Colorado! Also, why doesn't the CPW cull any more if it works so well?

It's evident that culling projects don't cull every living CWD deer and prions continued to spread through the the state of Colorado years after culling projects are over.

I'm sure you are also well aware of the Estes Park and Table Mtn projects where the CPW tried to cull every positive CWD deer for the life of the Estes Park project. Even culling every positive tested deer didn't work and a few slipped through the the cracks.

The conclusion at the end of both of those projects was that culling didn't work and that predators do a fantastic job of killing the few sick and dying CWD deer that exist.

Truth is culling projects were a total failure and the CPW learned years and years ago that culling projects and increasing tags to limit CWD spread was a total waste of time...and a total waste of a high % of healthy deer! It's extremely sad that the CPW is well aware of this but is using this as an excuse to sell more tags!
 
But but but but cwd hasn't wiped out the deer.

Face it dude. You are shooting holes in your own complaint.
 
Hmm, the so called experts told us masks and vaccines will stop covid.Funny the CWD experts point to and follow WHO and CDC recommendations for CWD and humans. Be very careful believing government experts. Agency removal is 100 fatal everytime.
 
Tristate said:
You realize you talk about the culling didn't work but cwd hasn't increased in the same post???? You don't realize you are arguing against your own conclusions.
Click to expand...
You're wrong on this one. There has been no culling in central and southeast Wyoming and prevalence rates have not increased in those areas where CWD was found decades ago.
 
Tristate said:
Cwd has increased in Wyoming. You are wrong.
Click to expand...
Is it being found in places where it hasn't been detected, yes, but that isn't what we are talking about. The areas we have known for decades and have not had culling seasons are showing no increases in prevalence rates. Get it straight.

I know you can't admit when you are wrong, but your comment @jims was incorrect. If culling programs work, it would be because prevalence rates were reduced. There has never been claims that culling stops the spread, but that it merely slows it down.
 
jm77 said:
Is it being found in places where it hasn't been detected, yes, but that isn't what we are talking about. The areas we have known for decades and have not had culling seasons are showing no increases in prevalence rates. Get it straight.

I know you can't admit when you are wrong, but your comment @jims was incorrect. If culling programs work, it would be because prevalence rates were reduced. There has never been claims that culling stops the spread, but that it merely slows it down.
Click to expand...
I never said it did stop the spread. Go back and read.

And you are getting bad info. We have data from all over the country showing prevalence rates increasing in non culling areas.

You are swallowing the lies you want to believe.
 

Here is a video with some really good information and data. Please watch all of it. Try not to get hung up on how much you dislike me. Please pay attention to these speakers.
 

Here is the post presentation Q & A. I encourage you to watch this also. Maybe questions you have could be answered here or not answered.
 
The final question in the Q&A video pretty much sums up the conference and the answers they have for preventing CWD spread…..crickets!!!

It’s at the 10 minute mark if you want to listen!
 
Your childish response makes no sense at all.

I encourage you to act mature, think scientifically, and watch the entirety of both films.
 
Tristate, did you see the response at the 10 minute mark to the question? It's obvious no one on the extensive panel of experts had an answer to the simple question of what prevents CWD from spreading! Chirp....chirp!
 
jims said:
Tristate, did you see the response at the 10 minute mark to the question? It's obvious no one on the extensive panel of experts had an answer to the simple question of what prevents CWD from spreading! Chirp....chirp!
Click to expand...
Do you realize how childish you are being?

You are upset and think your argument has merit if someone doesn't answer somebody else's question to your liking.

These ladies and gentlemen know waaaaaaaay more than you do but they aren't omniscient.
 
A super simple question that no one on the panel was able to answer! What's the best way to prevent the spread of CWD?

I was almost embarrassed for them as they looked at each other and the crickets were chirping!
 
jims said:
Tristate, did you see the response at the 10 minute mark to the question? It's obvious no one on the extensive panel of experts had an answer to the simple question of what prevents CWD from spreading! Chirp....chirp!
Click to expand...
You are correct Jim, there is no known method of any source that can stop the spread of CWD. At this time anyone who gives definitive answers is blowing smoke because there are no definitive answers.

And there is no study with any real merit that proves culling deer changes prevalence rate. If anyone wants to hear this from someone with knowledge, they can call the G&F lab in Laramie and ask for Hank. Don't waste your time arguing with Tristate.
 
jims said:
A super simple question that no one on the panel was able to answer! What's the best way to prevent the spread of CWD?

I was almost embarrassed for them as they looked at each other and the crickets were chirping!
Click to expand...
That question isn't asked at the 10 minute mark.

You are babling all over the place.
 
jm77 said:
You are correct Jim, there is no known method of any source that can stop the spread of CWD. At this time anyone who gives definitive answers is blowing smoke because there are no definitive answers.

And there is no study with any real merit that proves culling deer changes prevalence rate. If anyone wants to hear this from someone with knowledge, they can call the G&F lab in Laramie and ask for Hank. Don't waste your time arguing with Tristate.
Click to expand...
There are tons of studies based on it. There are tons of computer models that simulate prevalence. They can tweak variables within the programs like population density, which is what culling alters, to see what will happen to prevalence. They actually discuss it in the film. Quit being precious and watch what the scientists are doing.

Me personally I am going to pay attention to a board full of people with doctorates that study the disease professionally before I call Hank.
 
Computer models are pretty much a waste of time with CWD. Yep, they are great in an office but things change dramatically when out in the field! There are so many variables that models and predictions don't compensate for all the factors that occur in the field....especially with CWD!

A great example is the Estes Park Study. Tristate, what do you think about the Estes Park study? They predicted prevalence would be reduced significantly by the model they produced at the beginning of the study. 3/4 of the deer population was darted and tested for CWD. Then collared, and released. Once the tonsil samples were tested all of the CWD positive deer were then tracked down, ethnized, and killed.

They killed 3/4 of the deer that tested positive to CWD in the Estes Park Valley for several years in a row. Their predictions for prevalence from modeling weren't even close even using this aggressive culling approach.

They came to the conclusion that this only slightly impacted prevalence and that CWD still spread from prions that last many years in the soil. They mentioned that as long as there were prions in the soil and live deer roaming the hills it was impossible to do much more than slightly reduce CWD. Massive and aggressive culling projects similar to the Estes Park study have failed to prevent the spread of CWD.

Towards the end of the results section they mentioned that predators that selectively kill weak and sick deer do just as good of job of keeping CWD deer prevalence in check as their culling project of testing 3/4 of the deer and culling the CWD positive deer.

The fact is, that the only effective thing currently available to selectively kill CWD deer in field situations on a large scale is predators that kill those deer that are weak and sick! Predators are pretty efficient CWD killers!

Having healthy deer contributing to resistant alleles could also be another saving grace to deer.
 
I think the Estes park study like almost every "study" you have posted is quackery.

I think you intentionally mislead people here for some other agenda.
 
Tristate said:
Me personally I am going to pay attention to a board full of people with doctorates that study the disease professionally before I call Hank.
Click to expand...
Hank knows more about CWD than all of them put together. In the end, he still don't know enough. But I digress, nobody knows as much as Tristate, at least not in his mind.
 
Here you go Tristate. "Feasibility of "test-and-cull" for managing chronic wasting disease in urban mule deer."

2 publications from the Estes Park Studies. First published in Wildlife Society in 2004.


Here's the final publication in the Wildlife Disease Publication in 2018.

meridian.allenpress.com

EVALUATION OF A TEST AND CULL STRATEGY FOR REDUCING PREVALENCE OF CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE IN MULE DEER (ODOCOILEUS HEMIONUS)

Abstract: . We evaluated a test and cull strategy for lowering chronic wasting disease (CWD) prevalence in a naturally-infected, free-ranging mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) herd wintering in the town of Estes Park, Colorado, US and in nearby Rocky Mountain National Park. We tested 48−68% of the...
meridian.allenpress.com meridian.allenpress.com
 
Tristate, be sure to read the first and last paragraphs below! It states almost word for word what I've been saying all along. 1) Culling is ineffective in reducing CWD prevalence, and 2) predators are important in suppressing CWD!

DISCUSSION​

Despite expending considerable field effort and adhering closely to management objectives, we did not uniformly reduce CWD prevalence through selective culling.

Our efforts to “test and cull” CWD-infected mule deer in the Estes Park and Rocky Mountain National Park area minimally stimulated a trend toward decreased prevalence among males and held prevalence static among females.

The anticipated magnitude of the impact of culling on prevalence seems in retrospect to have been overly optimistic within the time frame we allowed for detecting such a response. The Gross and Miller (2001) model likely overemphasized the role of infected individuals in CWD transmission—and consequently overestimated the relative impact of their removal—because indirect prion transmission was excluded. But environmental sources of infection apparently can drive CWD epidemics, at least temporarily (Almberg et al. 2011), thereby buffering against the lack of infected animals. Chronic wasting disease became endemic in this area well before disease management began, so it seems plausible that contaminated environments could sustain transmission over several years, despite aggressive removal of infected deer.

In some aspects, our culling of known CWD-positive animals simulated the effect of natural predators in the wild that exploit vulnerabilities and weakness when selecting prey. Although we detected some infected individuals well before clinical signs would have been discernible to a predator, at the herd level our testing effort likely was not as persistent or effective as that of natural predators. Our findings could lend credence to the potential role of predation−of sufficiently high intensity and duration−in helping suppress CWD outbreaks if CWD-positive individuals are preferentially targeted by predators (Wild et al. 2011).
 
"Our findings could lend credence to the potential role of predation−of sufficiently high intensity and duration−in helping suppress CWD outbreaks if CWD-positive individuals are preferentially targeted by predators (Wild et al. 2011)."

There are lots of bears, coyotes, and mtn lions in the Estes Park area that have done a fantastic job of suppressing CWD the past 20+ years. CWD today is no worse than it was back in 1980 when it was first introduced.
 
jims said:
"Our findings could lend credence to the potential role of predation−of sufficiently high intensity and duration−in helping suppress CWD outbreaks if CWD-positive individuals are preferentially targeted by predators (Wild et al. 2011)."

There are lots of bears, coyotes, and mtn lions in the Estes Park area that have done a fantastic job of suppressing CWD the past 20+ years. CWD today is no worse than it was back in 1980 when it was first introduced.
Click to expand...
So in their study they studied predation and culling????

Do you know how a scientific study works?

Do you know what the word "could" means?

This is garbage science that you are holding onto because it fits your agenda.

You are missing the picture because you are staring at it through a keyhole.
 
Tristate it is obvious you are ignorant of even the title of the journal publications! They were published in highly regarded scientific publications and refereed journals.

If you know anything about publications you would see the predator statement is a reference to another publication.

Read the title, reference, and bold print!
 
You can keep saying the sky is blue at noon and the grass is green when it rains. Some people will never agree regardless of the facts.
 
jims said:
Tristate it is obvious you are ignorant of even the title of the journal publications! They were published in highly regarded scientific publications and refereed journals.

If you know anything about publications you would see the predator statement is a reference to another publication.

Read the title, reference, and bold print!
Click to expand...
I know the garbage it says. I don't care where it's published. Sometimes people latch onto bad science. My state wildlife agency has been stuck on spike management from a study done on Kerr WMA from the 1970s. They are still basing whitetail management on it and pretty much every education institution in the state uses it as a learning example of bad science.

The Estes park study doesn't prove culling doesn't work. It doesn't prove your predators are magical natural antibiotics combating prion diseases.

It's junk science that agenda driven activists grab hold of.


I PROVIDED YOU A VIDEO TO WATCH. I SUGGEST YOU WATCH IT. It's the most current CWD info out there.

Go watch it and learn.
 

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