CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
The conservation tags can be statewide but most are hunt specific. The landowners tags are unit specific but I suspect most will choose the early rifle.
Elk management meeting today
- Thread starter Oneye
- Start date
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
That occurs at the different meeting. Tag prices were not addressed.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
All I can say is we have not gotten the complaints regarding the spike multi season tags. I brought up the spike tags and there was no appetite to change them. I was a no vote on the multi season any bull because I thought we could keep them with a smaller quota. The vote to remove them was 5-1.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
I wasn't sure about the unlimited second season tag until the multi season any bull tags were eliminated. When they went away I was comfortable with the unlimited second season. Everyone has a view on how this will go, but no one has a crystal ball.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
I agree with you. But there are those that think differently. I don't think there is a legal stand to win a lawsuit. But if you know the right folks in the legislature anything is up for grabs.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
Talked about this option. There are hunts that at time time would take over 100 years to clear out just the points. I think Utah's point system is the fairest of them all. What I don't like is the entitlement it has created. I've waited 25 years and I deserve something. Without the point system you might have never drawn. I has also created an atmosphere that 25 years ago I started building points with an expectation that the rules wouldn't change.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
I suspect that the limited entry archery hunts will be split in the future. Hunters would decide if they want a rut or pre rut tag. Pros and cons as always. But I think it would put limited entry tags in hunters hands more often if they opted for the pre rut archery tag.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
Let me look into that issue.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
The mentor program is in statue so it is not under the wildlife board. It will take a legislator to sponsor a bill to change it. I'm not great at getting things sponsored at the capitol. With a very limited scope it might have a chance. I will keep my ears open for an opportunity. I suspect that there are many in your position.
HornyMan
Active Member
- Messages
- 614
@CrazyUtGuy
I heard that the Goshute tribe wasn't contacted regarding making the Deep Creeks a general tag and that this decision might be reversed. Can you confirm?
I heard that the Goshute tribe wasn't contacted regarding making the Deep Creeks a general tag and that this decision might be reversed. Can you confirm?
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
No, but it is what makes the bullet hit its mark past 300 yards.
Anyone who says otherwise is simply making a "feel good" statement for keeping theirs.
elkantlers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,713
That's why a 4x scope rule would be the best option.
I have a hard time worrying about muzzleloaders shooting 300 yards and beyond when we've heard in this thread that people are shooting 1900 yards and further at critters with Rifles.
Last edited:
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,098
I've primarily bowhunted since I was 25 (I'm now 81) and, although I restore old guns, I'm not that familiar with hunting with muzzys, shotguns, handguns, pinfires, black powder cartridge guns, etc. That makes me wonder just how many of those technology restrictions are feel-good social issues that also don't fix the big problem, or even some of the little ones. How far back do we need to go to actually reduce success rates? Or is that even the point? Are we now going to manage our wildlife more socially than scientifically? You Tech Committee members have a nearly impossible task to keep up, let alone make everybody happy. I wish you well in that task!
As I said at the Southern RAC, "When you change the rules of a game, you change the way it is played". Yes, they took my apples, but I adjusted with my elk hunt by making a mock wallow at the water hole by digging out and clearing the shallow pond and making a temporary dam out of some sticks and mud. And by dumping elk urine from 4 different bottles all around it. Did it work? You bet! Did I get an elk? No, but only because I only had time and good weather to hunt it one day a little too early for the rut. But after the season when I went back in to pick up my blind and dismantle the dam, the tall grass around the water was flat and covered with mud and elk tracks were everywhere. Those who get 'er done now will adjust to new rules and will figure out new ways to accomplish their goals and limits on technology will not make much difference in success rates.
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,098
That's correct and that's why the DWR and the tribal elders will meet to decide before next year's hunts are scheduled. The tribal members' hunts are not recreational but are sustenance and don't fall under the DWR's jurisdiction. There has to be some kind of agreement between the 2 entities to make any changes to public hunts in lands the tribe is allowed to hunt.
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
Several of us Committee members suggested something higher than 1× because it actually reduces normal vision, but it was decided to just simplify it back to the old rule.
elkantlers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,713
With all due respect, that don't mean anything once we get to the Wildlife board meeting.
I hope you and the other committee members that wanted a higher power than 1x will let the WB know when the comment period opens.
Dangbig
Active Member
- Messages
- 285
So a 3x9 scope in itself assures anyone to hit its mark at 300???
A 1x or opens sight assures not many will and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
Dangbig
Active Member
- Messages
- 285
Knuckleheads will be knuckleheads and still lob lead
Without proficient practice which most don’t do 300 is a poke regardless of magnification for the average joe with his CVA wolf he bought cause he got a multi season tag.
I think we are trying to address 2% of hunters who might shoot hundreds of rounds and are proficient at these ranges rather than the guy who shoots a plate at a hundred and calls it good
Slam thanks for your service with the committee I am sure it has been interesting
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
A 3x9 is a 9x scope......that's all that needs to be said.
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
You are correct, but the trend in LR muzzle loaders is snowballing upward very fast as technology for it continues to advance.
As I have admitted, I shoot a Knight with a 4x12 turret scope.
I don't have it worked up past 200 accurately, but I easily could because of the optic.
The Tech Committee agreed that by limiting the optics, you essentially handicap the advancing capabilities within today's rifles.
Thank you, it's been an interesting position to be a part of, and we're not done yet.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Gonna Take a HELL of Alot More Than Removing Scopes Off Of SmokePoles To Bring This Suffering Deer Herd Back!
Dangbig
Active Member
- Messages
- 285
Sight picture, not a MOA adjustment
Karl, regarding scopes, I fall into the love and hate them. When muzzleloader hunting began in UT the weapons didn't look or perform anything like they do now. I believe it started as a "traditional weapon" type of hunt. Obviously, this is no longer the case. As for scopes and modern muzzleloaders I have two thoughts. One is that the scopes may give an unfair advantage. The other is that maybe they reduce the amount of wounded game due to better shot placement. In my mind #2 outweighs #1. Some form of scope with maybe a maximum power of 6x whether fixed or variable would be a happy medium. It also allows "older eyes" to be more effective when compared to open sights. Thanks for the offer to comment as well as the service you are providing.
OpeningDay
Active Member
- Messages
- 627
I agree with the 2% comment. The majority may sling the lead, but dont have the set ups to be successful with long range Muzzleloader shots. There is a huge difference between a CVA Wolf off the shelf and the Custom Paramount Pro I currently have set up. 500 yards with this rifle in the right conditions is very doable.
@OpeningDay A CVA wolf off the shelf with scope can shoot accurately to 300 yards. That's a hell of a lot farther than circa 2015 Utah legal muzzleloaders.
As for the increased wounding argument with no scopes--welp we better outlaw bowhunting because they don't have scopes and they fling pointy sticks. I hate the wounding argument--it's the worst argument of all and if followed to it's logical ending it means we all use guided missiles. It's just dumb--no offense @falcon63
I've said it before and I'lll say it again. Guys want scopes on muzzy's for 3 reasons:
1. It makes killing game at long ranges easier
2. It makes killing game in low light conditions easier
3. Guys have bought and mounted the scope and don't want to get rid of it
There ya go
As for the increased wounding argument with no scopes--welp we better outlaw bowhunting because they don't have scopes and they fling pointy sticks. I hate the wounding argument--it's the worst argument of all and if followed to it's logical ending it means we all use guided missiles. It's just dumb--no offense @falcon63
I've said it before and I'lll say it again. Guys want scopes on muzzy's for 3 reasons:
1. It makes killing game at long ranges easier
2. It makes killing game in low light conditions easier
3. Guys have bought and mounted the scope and don't want to get rid of it
There ya go
middlefork
Active Member
- Messages
- 908
The technology portion of the meeting was tabled and moved to the spring meeting for good reason. There needs to be much more discussion and a clear concept of what any changes are meant to accomplish for the elk plan.
The presented weapon restrictions were for "FUTURE" HAMS hunts on elk units only.
It was not a recommendation to replace current descriptions with the restrictions presented for all hunts.
Not that those won't change.
I'll ask again, anyone have the recommendations from the letter SFW presented to the RACS/WB?
The presented weapon restrictions were for "FUTURE" HAMS hunts on elk units only.
It was not a recommendation to replace current descriptions with the restrictions presented for all hunts.
Not that those won't change.
I'll ask again, anyone have the recommendations from the letter SFW presented to the RACS/WB?
No offense taken, but ethically we should try to reduce wounding as long as we don't go to some unfair advantage of the given hunt. Maybe that's the reason for caliber restrictions in rifle seasons also. Of course guys want scopes for the three reasons you listed. So if we are worried about technology of the rifles then limit the technology of the scopes to some point. I also can't agree with your archery analogy. With todays current equipment it still takes a lot of practice to become proficient with a bow. Hours of practice. Just about anyone who can shoot a rifle can shoot a muzzleloader and might feel confident enough to take shots that shouldn't be taken. That can happen with archery as well but the likely hood of a clean miss is much higher than with a scope sighted muzzleloader. Just because you hate the argument doesn't make it dumb.....or wrong.
Last edited:
I have also asked to see this SFW letter for tech restrictions.
I believe Aireborn and others have asked also.
But, to no avail.
Is it locked in a black briefcase and then handcuffed to someone, somewhere and can’t be shared?
@falcon63
Every weapon has it's effective range, your argument is that guys are going to push beyond their effective open sight range and wound more animals so therefore we need to allow scopes. Keep on your arguments path: If a guy will shoot beyond their effective open sight range then that same guy will shoot beyond their effective scope range and wound more animals. The argument doesn't stop--wounding arguments can be used to justify guided missile systems. That's why it's a bad argument, it basically assumes the worst in people in order to allow more and more tech that doesn't stop.
As for your caliber argument, that's apples and oranges. We can require weapons to have the minimum ability to kill. This is applied to both rifles and bows with poundage requirements. It sets a minimum but doesn't assume folks are slobs and it's applied to all weapons. I have yet to see a requirement that all rifles have to have scopes, and I have never heard an archer claiming they need a scope on their bow so they don't wound more animals.
The wounding argument is a façade that seems to make sense until you challenge it, then it falls apart quickly. That's why I hate it--it's lazy thinking
and we are all still waiting of SFW's technology letter--must be top secret!
Every weapon has it's effective range, your argument is that guys are going to push beyond their effective open sight range and wound more animals so therefore we need to allow scopes. Keep on your arguments path: If a guy will shoot beyond their effective open sight range then that same guy will shoot beyond their effective scope range and wound more animals. The argument doesn't stop--wounding arguments can be used to justify guided missile systems. That's why it's a bad argument, it basically assumes the worst in people in order to allow more and more tech that doesn't stop.
As for your caliber argument, that's apples and oranges. We can require weapons to have the minimum ability to kill. This is applied to both rifles and bows with poundage requirements. It sets a minimum but doesn't assume folks are slobs and it's applied to all weapons. I have yet to see a requirement that all rifles have to have scopes, and I have never heard an archer claiming they need a scope on their bow so they don't wound more animals.
The wounding argument is a façade that seems to make sense until you challenge it, then it falls apart quickly. That's why I hate it--it's lazy thinking
and we are all still waiting of SFW's technology letter--must be top secret!
Last edited:
There is another wounding argument. More powerful scopes encourage longer range shooting that introduces other accuracy factors such as variable long range wind anomalies and the MANY factors that effect rifle and shooter accuracy - long range sniper issues. I have an ethical issue with long range shooting. If the animal does not go down or show visible signs of a hard hit, how many shooters walk the half mile (800 + yards) or more to check for blood or other hit signs to follow up on wounded game. How would they even find the actual spot where the animal stood. It is a fair chase issue.
People will always push the limits on the range they can effectively shoot, it doesn't matter if they have a scope or not. Even if some can shoot 60+ yards with Archery equipment bottom line is they still have to get within 100 yds. of the animal and most likely the animal will sense them and be gone giving the animal a fare chance. When a animal is 500 yds. away their senses is dramatically decreased and have a very small chance of getting away.
The only way the DWR can effectively take control of this is to cut tags/opportunity.
As far as limiting technology the DWR simply cannot control this, Just like the trail camera law they passed last year, unless someone sees a camera and reports it to the DWR, the DWR is not staffed enough to enforce this law and even if the camera is reported the division still has to prove that it is being used for hunting. I have seen multiple cameras in the field this year that have been there all year long but who knows if they are being used for hunting or if they are simply being used by someone not hunting and just want pics of the wildlife. All these laws and restrictions do is keep honest people honest.
The only way the DWR can effectively take control of this is to cut tags/opportunity.
As far as limiting technology the DWR simply cannot control this, Just like the trail camera law they passed last year, unless someone sees a camera and reports it to the DWR, the DWR is not staffed enough to enforce this law and even if the camera is reported the division still has to prove that it is being used for hunting. I have seen multiple cameras in the field this year that have been there all year long but who knows if they are being used for hunting or if they are simply being used by someone not hunting and just want pics of the wildlife. All these laws and restrictions do is keep honest people honest.
Elkslayer2015
Active Member
- Messages
- 853
Elkrunning-Scared
Active Member
- Messages
- 122
I thought the same thing you did. But boy I was wrong. I have seen more law enforcement officers back in the tree’s then I ever have the one DNR officer said there has been 145 cases on trail cameras in my area yes 145.
I will guarantee not one of them are bird/wildlife watchers.
But from what I was told they will just take them.
So pretty much if you want them back you get ahold of the DWR for your area then you have to prove they where just for wildlife and not hunting.
Maybe Karl can clarify on this one
There also was 7 tree stand right over baiting areas all with mineral blocks on them.
I also was told that the DWR was teaming up with the forest service to remove the baiting along with the tree stands.
There is going to be a lot more tree stands removed as well.
Which don’t hurt my feelings at all they are getting out of hand.
Sounds like they are doing a pretty good job of enforcing it in my area.
I found several tree stands last year, that were actively being used, that had been there for MANY years. How many years? Well, the trees had started growing around them.
Elkrunning-Scared
Active Member
- Messages
- 122
My point is very clear you said they are not going to regulate them well they sure the hell are.
Can they legally take them I don’t know. But after 16 days on the forest it’s considered abandoned property.That’s why I think the forest service is teaming up with them I bet.
But I don’t know! that’s why I ask Karl.
Elkslayer2015
Active Member
- Messages
- 853
I guess if anyone has a point different than you it’s lazy, dumb or wrong. You go girl!
Not at all, there are a lot of differing opinions out there that I respect but disagree with. If you said you wanted scopes because it makes it easier for you to kill animals with your muzzy I would totally respect that, or if you said you didn't want to go through the hassle of taking a scope off your gun and getting iron sights--I would respect that as well.
For every opinion there are good arguments and bad arguments. I have peddled a lot of bad arguments in my time. I appreciate when folks point things out to help me become a better thinker. That's why I like this forum and others. Have a good day!
Totally agree with lots of arguments that may be good that I don’t agree with. My personal reason for wanting a scope is my eyes are old enough that iron sights and very difficult to use. However I don’t think the scope has to turn my muzzle loader into a 500 yard weapon. Limit my range by limiting the power but still allow me to participate. Does that make sense? I know there will always be people who push the limits regardless. Can’t regulate ethics!
Regards.
schoolhousegrizz
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,577
Yes I like the Middle road there. Maybe a fixed four for muzzleloaders.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
Thank you. I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm just not sure were it will land. Thanks again.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
The change was passed but delayed a year. I'm told there are some points that need to be ironed out, but that they are not big issues. That will be determined over the next year. But at this point it will go any bull but in 2024.
CrazyUtGuy
Member
- Messages
- 43
I don't have any information regarding enforcement and how it is going. I've been sued once because an acquaintance was involved in a case. So I try to stay in my lane. The best advise I can give is call the SL office and ask for the law enforcement office. Sorry
backinthegame
Active Member
- Messages
- 754
Lots of subjects being tossed around here, appreciate you Karl for coming on and answering a bunch of questions, you're a brave man!
I just have one comment about bonus points, you'd mentioned that you feel that UT's system is the most fair and I don't disagree. I do sometimes feel like a perfect (lol, yeah right) solution might be a hybrid between our system and NV's. Squaring points increases the odds having your number come up in an even more weighted fashion vs just a simple 5 points gets 5 chances, 20 points get 20 chances and I like that. Though NV holds no tags back for max point holders, which can be tough. Theoretically you could put in forever with max points and never draw. 50% set aside for max points feels high, cut that in half, make it 20% or 25% and then square the points. My opinion and it's not worth much!
I just have one comment about bonus points, you'd mentioned that you feel that UT's system is the most fair and I don't disagree. I do sometimes feel like a perfect (lol, yeah right) solution might be a hybrid between our system and NV's. Squaring points increases the odds having your number come up in an even more weighted fashion vs just a simple 5 points gets 5 chances, 20 points get 20 chances and I like that. Though NV holds no tags back for max point holders, which can be tough. Theoretically you could put in forever with max points and never draw. 50% set aside for max points feels high, cut that in half, make it 20% or 25% and then square the points. My opinion and it's not worth much!
fullthrottle
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,361
Lets talk taking fairly across the board. When the tag numbers are 33% to rifle, 33% to muzzleloader, & 33% to archery then we can have a conversation about if you are going to take from one, you have to take from another. Until then, anyone bit$hen about archery restrictions can stick it!
elkhunter81
Active Member
- Messages
- 121
Wow must be Joe Biden Jr. Maybe you and elkass can get everything shut down until things are fair.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
With Proper Management Nothing Would Have To Be Shut Down!
With Current Management It'll Shut Itself Down!
With Current Management It'll Shut Itself Down!
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Well!
I Hunt All 3 As Well!
I Remember My First Bow!
You Saying They Ain't Killing Game at 3 Times The Distance They Used To?
I'll Give Some!
But To Make It F'N Fair It Needs To Happen On All 3 Weapon Types!
There Ain't One F'N Weapon Type Out There That Hasn't Advanced Light-years with Advanced Technology!
I Hunt All 3 As Well!
I Remember My First Bow!
You Saying They Ain't Killing Game at 3 Times The Distance They Used To?
I'll Give Some!
But To Make It F'N Fair It Needs To Happen On All 3 Weapon Types!
There Ain't One F'N Weapon Type Out There That Hasn't Advanced Light-years with Advanced Technology!
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
Elk Hunting on the reservation is the only source of income for the tribe aside from government funds.
Their worry about the quality of the Deep Creek herd ad a whole is legitimate.
If the quality drops, so will the value of their lease.
It will also undoubtedly cause them trespassing issues for an already understaffed law enforcement.
Does someone want to tell Elkass that life ain't fair
I wouldn't whine one bit if rifle's didn't have scopes, muzzy's were open sight flint locks and bows were recurves and longbows. Just imagine the amount of tags they would issue to kill the same amount of critters we are killing today! Point creep would be a thing of the past and I would still kill sh!t. Would be fecking marvelous!
I wouldn't whine one bit if rifle's didn't have scopes, muzzy's were open sight flint locks and bows were recurves and longbows. Just imagine the amount of tags they would issue to kill the same amount of critters we are killing today! Point creep would be a thing of the past and I would still kill sh!t. Would be fecking marvelous!
I didn’t ever say archery equipment hasn’t advanced. But back in the day, Fifty yards was a max range, I’m saying there aren’t many killing at 150 and not too many even at 100.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Ya!
That's What This Already Over Hunted State Needs Is More Tags!
GEEZUS!
That's What This Already Over Hunted State Needs Is More Tags!
GEEZUS!
Does someone want to tell Elkass that life ain't fair
I wouldn't whine one bit if rifle's didn't have scopes, muzzy's were open sight flint locks and bows were recurves and longbows. Just imagine the amount of tags they would issue to kill the same amount of critters we are killing today! Point creep would be a thing of the past and I would still kill sh!t. Would be fecking marvelous!
ridgetops
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,724
This is one of the most self centered, selfish comments I've read in along time. I guess the difference between you and me is although I feel like I could still fill my tag even with more restrictions, I don't want to make it harder for others to fill their tag.Does someone want to tell Elkass that life ain't fair
I wouldn't whine one bit if rifle's didn't have scopes, muzzy's were open sight flint locks and bows were recurves and longbows. Just imagine the amount of tags they would issue to kill the same amount of critters we are killing today! Point creep would be a thing of the past and I would still kill sh!t. Would be fecking marvelous!
Taking scopes off of muzzleloaders at this point will definitely cause more animals to be wounded and here's why. The guys that are already shooting long range right now and are wounding animals will continue to do so, no matter what change is made but the guys that have a hard time seeing and shooting past 50-75 yards with open sights but shoot really well with a scope at 100-150 yards. Those people (like myself) will loose their confidence shooting open sights or even a 1x scope. Once someone looses their confidence, their accuracy will be effected and therefor the chance of wounding an animal will increase, that's a fact. Just look at a baseball pitcher, a football quarterback, a golfer or a basketball player. Once they miss their target and continue to miss, they loose confidence and their accuracy can be greatly effected for the rest of the game, even the rest of the season for some. The same goes with someone shooting at a target or animal. I hope Karl and/ or other WB members read this.
I'm all for some sort of compromise with the scope on muzzleloader debate. I feel a 4x cap would be a good compromise.
elkhunter81
Active Member
- Messages
- 121
Aren't these changes meant to make it harder for certain groups. People are feeling an unfair advantage that some have and want changes. So any change/compromise is making it harder for someone.
ridgetops
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,724
Ok, let's keep things the same as they are now.?
gundog2
Active Member
- Messages
- 397
The potential number of archery cow elk permits is not 600, 2000 or even 3000. It could be UNLIMITED because that is exactly what we have been offering in terms of the General Season Archery Elk Hunts. The only difference would be that archers buying the cow el permits would not be able to accumulate point for other cow elk (rifle) hunts. No double dipping.
elkantlers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,713
4x
That's all.
That's all.
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
Yes, but imagine all the crying of "too many people on the mountain" 10x worse than they do it already today.Does someone want to tell Elkass that life ain't fair
I wouldn't whine one bit if rifle's didn't have scopes, muzzy's were open sight flint locks and bows were recurves and longbows. Just imagine the amount of tags they would issue to kill the same amount of critters we are killing today! Point creep would be a thing of the past and I would still kill sh!t. Would be fecking marvelous!
I'd raise that 6X but could live with 4X.
Well, @ridgetops I think you are super duper ultra self centered and are a super conceded game hog because you want to kill sh!t with your muzzy at long range. You see how it's easy to call names and flip this, from another perspective you are self centered because you want to kill game more easily. (I don't think you are any of those things) None of the name calling gets us anywhere but if it makes you feel better that's ok.
As for the rest of your 'reasoning', well that seems pretty convoluted (notice I said your argument was convoluted, not you). I'm not going to move the needle with you so I'm not going to try. You like your weapons tech because it makes it easier for you to kill stuff and that's ok. Just wish there was some honesty and you could just say that, instead of bringing in baseball, tennis, and golf or whatever. It's like the rube goldberg machine of arguments.
I do respect your argument that you like to see high success rates with the high tech weapons because it makes more people happy and you like to see that. That's a legit reason for it, albeit that it comes with a cost meaning less tags and opportunity but hey, it's a cohesive argument.
And to all others, my off the cuff comment about weapons was just that--off the cuff. I know it would cause crowding--it was just some fun smack talk--it's not like any of that has a chance in hell of coming true.
I would trade success rates for opportunity. It's a way to hunt more. I like to hunt so this looks like a way to do it. I don't think that's selfish but ya know that's just like my opinion man.
As for the rest of your 'reasoning', well that seems pretty convoluted (notice I said your argument was convoluted, not you). I'm not going to move the needle with you so I'm not going to try. You like your weapons tech because it makes it easier for you to kill stuff and that's ok. Just wish there was some honesty and you could just say that, instead of bringing in baseball, tennis, and golf or whatever. It's like the rube goldberg machine of arguments.
I do respect your argument that you like to see high success rates with the high tech weapons because it makes more people happy and you like to see that. That's a legit reason for it, albeit that it comes with a cost meaning less tags and opportunity but hey, it's a cohesive argument.
And to all others, my off the cuff comment about weapons was just that--off the cuff. I know it would cause crowding--it was just some fun smack talk--it's not like any of that has a chance in hell of coming true.
I would trade success rates for opportunity. It's a way to hunt more. I like to hunt so this looks like a way to do it. I don't think that's selfish but ya know that's just like my opinion man.
middlefork
Active Member
- Messages
- 908
Just so we are on the same page this was what was proposed and tabled for HAMS hunts.
You guys can argue the rest.
1. Archery: a. The bow must be a single-stringed recurve or a longbow b. It must not have sights or any cables, pulleys, cams or attached electronic devices 2. Muzzleloader: a. Be equipped only with a flint percussion cap or a musket cap (209 primers and all other modern ignition types are prohibited) b. Be equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of the cap is clearly exposed and visible when the hammer of the weapon is cocked and ready to fire c. Be free of any electronic devices d. Have only open sights or peep sights 3. Any Weapon (Rifle): a. Have only open sights or peep sights b. Be free of any electronic devices c. Not be a semi-automatic rifle Department of Natural Resources JOEL FERRY Executive Director Division of Wildlife Resources J. SHIRLEY Division Director 1594 West North Temple, Suite 3710 • PO Box 145610 • Salt Lake City, UT 84114-5610 • Telephone (801) 538-7200 • www.nr.utah.gov 4. Handgun: a. Have only open sights or peep sights b. Be free of any electronic devices c. Have no more than a single barrel 15 inches or less in length, including the chamber d. Have a single rear handgrip, without any form of a fixed, detachable, or collapsible buttstock e. Not have any apparatus or extension behind the rear grip capable of being used to steady the handgun against the body while firing; or a vertical foregrip f. Be no more than 24 inches in overall length 5. Shotgun: a. Have only open sights or peep sights b. Be free of any electronic devices c. Be 20 gauge or larger d. Fire only size 00 or larger buckshot or slug ammunition
You guys can argue the rest.
1. Archery: a. The bow must be a single-stringed recurve or a longbow b. It must not have sights or any cables, pulleys, cams or attached electronic devices 2. Muzzleloader: a. Be equipped only with a flint percussion cap or a musket cap (209 primers and all other modern ignition types are prohibited) b. Be equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of the cap is clearly exposed and visible when the hammer of the weapon is cocked and ready to fire c. Be free of any electronic devices d. Have only open sights or peep sights 3. Any Weapon (Rifle): a. Have only open sights or peep sights b. Be free of any electronic devices c. Not be a semi-automatic rifle Department of Natural Resources JOEL FERRY Executive Director Division of Wildlife Resources J. SHIRLEY Division Director 1594 West North Temple, Suite 3710 • PO Box 145610 • Salt Lake City, UT 84114-5610 • Telephone (801) 538-7200 • www.nr.utah.gov 4. Handgun: a. Have only open sights or peep sights b. Be free of any electronic devices c. Have no more than a single barrel 15 inches or less in length, including the chamber d. Have a single rear handgrip, without any form of a fixed, detachable, or collapsible buttstock e. Not have any apparatus or extension behind the rear grip capable of being used to steady the handgun against the body while firing; or a vertical foregrip f. Be no more than 24 inches in overall length 5. Shotgun: a. Have only open sights or peep sights b. Be free of any electronic devices c. Be 20 gauge or larger d. Fire only size 00 or larger buckshot or slug ammunition
middlefork
Active Member
- Messages
- 908
And just to be clear these recommendations have nothing to do with anything other than HAMS hunts.
The arguments for other weapon restrictions are for future discussions.
The arguments for other weapon restrictions are for future discussions.
Lots of interesting conversation, points, and opinions here. My favorites are:
1. folks making a case that a scope doesn’t give you a distinct advantage on a muzzy.
2. Scopes prevent more wounded animals.
These hunting conversations mirror our society. If someone is incompetent at shooting certain weapons we should give them a better technology to make up for there short comings. What happened to the days when those guys ,who were incompetent, just didn’t hunt? Muzzy hunts are supposed to be primitive weapons at the heart. And be more difficult to be effective with. That in turn discourages hunters ,who are not dedicated to being efficient with a muzzy, from even applying for such hunts. Same with archery. Weird world. For what it’s worth, scopes 100% increase the efficiency and range on a muzzle loader. And animals will continue to be wounded and unrecovered whether it’s from bad fortune or just idiots shooting weapons.
1. folks making a case that a scope doesn’t give you a distinct advantage on a muzzy.
2. Scopes prevent more wounded animals.
These hunting conversations mirror our society. If someone is incompetent at shooting certain weapons we should give them a better technology to make up for there short comings. What happened to the days when those guys ,who were incompetent, just didn’t hunt? Muzzy hunts are supposed to be primitive weapons at the heart. And be more difficult to be effective with. That in turn discourages hunters ,who are not dedicated to being efficient with a muzzy, from even applying for such hunts. Same with archery. Weird world. For what it’s worth, scopes 100% increase the efficiency and range on a muzzle loader. And animals will continue to be wounded and unrecovered whether it’s from bad fortune or just idiots shooting weapons.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Quit F'N Around & Get The Gun You Really Want!
Just Tell Ms HOSSY That's What They Cost!
Just Tell Ms HOSSY That's What They Cost!
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
Explain your thought process on archery advancements.
It's the lowest success rates because of the limitations on short range equipment, yet technology keeps stretching it.
When do you feel it needs the brakes out on?
Do you feel it needs to have higher success rates to match the other hunt choices?
Do you want the brakes pumped on muzzy and rifles but allow archery technology to advance?
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,500
Santa ain't got plumber money ?
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
I Don't Think I've Seen a Gun as Heavy As The 2nd Gun in that Video Since I TOTED STINKY'S .50 around!
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,500
Hey Hossy!
The Day PUNK Makes You PLUCK That Scope It's Gonna Hurt!
I know how to use open sights
I'll explain, but keep in mind these are only my thoughts, no scientific evidence here. I think that archery even with advancements in bows and sights still has the most amount of "human error". Fatigue in holding the bow at full draw, more subject to movement on the part of the shooter, still have to get fairly close, still have to watch wind and scent conditions more than other weapons, etc. So essentially, I think that when technology gives the hunter an unfair advantage, then it's time to pump the brakes. I realize that with any weapons these are subjective boundaries. But in my mind, some of the technology in scopes for rifles and to a lesser degree muzzleloaders, is crossing the boundary of unfair. Successful shots on animals 1000 - 2000 yards away is not fair chase, in my opinion. Impressive shooting to be sure, but not sure I'd categorize it as hunting.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
So?
Archers Shooting 3 Times Further Today On Average Isn't An Advancement From Bows of 1980?
It's Every F'N Weapon Type!
I Remember When a 30-40 Yard Shot With a StickFlipper Was a Long Shot!
Now We've Got Long Range StickFlippers Shooting 100-120 Yards Deliberately!
Archers Shooting 3 Times Further Today On Average Isn't An Advancement From Bows of 1980?
It's Every F'N Weapon Type!
I Remember When a 30-40 Yard Shot With a StickFlipper Was a Long Shot!
Now We've Got Long Range StickFlippers Shooting 100-120 Yards Deliberately!
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,500
Bifocals.
Adapt.
When my sheetrocker shoulders give up, I'll put down my bow. I won't expect the idea of archery to change.
If I can't see the sights, I'll put the muzzy down
JakeH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,271
Yeah even with the small portion of archery hunters that can consistently make those 100 yards shots. They still don't touch what just about every muzzloader hunter can shoot.
When you have the majority of archery hunters being able to consistently shoot 150 yards then you have an argument to make. But as is most archers effective range is probably 60 yards. Which is less then half the effective range of a muzzleloader in semi competent hands.
The fact the effective range has doubled with archery equipment in the last 40 years it still isn't close to the effective range of a muzzloader even without a scope.
Not sure I understand your response. So?
Yes, people are flinging 100-120 yard shots. How many are connecting….. not many!
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Connecting?
You Ever Wonder about The Wounding?
Yes!
Happens With Every F'N Weapon Type!
You Ever Wonder about The Wounding?
Yes!
Happens With Every F'N Weapon Type!
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Yes I always worry about wounding. You have to connect to wound and I don’t believe it happens very often,
Last edited:
JakeH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,271
Come on now bess, you can read better then that. Yeah some guys can shoot 120 yards, I know guys that can shoot a open site muzzy 400 yards. You still want to compare apples to oranges???
Average archery hunter can shoot 60 yards with a bow, the average muzzy hunter can easily shoot 150. The average rifle hunter can shoot 300+. You start throwing In the top end for each there are a hell of a lot more guys who can effectively shoot farther then average with a muzzy, and rifle then there is with a bow, and it takes a lot less practice and dedication to the weapon type.
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,098
Please re-read my post #96. I can't vouch for the effectiveness of current muzzy or rifle technology but I do know that current archery technology has made very little difference in success rates!
Remove compounds if you want, but don't increase tags thinking that fewer bucks/ bulls will be killed 'cause it won't happen. Bowhunting is tough enough as it is.
Remove compounds if you want, but don't increase tags thinking that fewer bucks/ bulls will be killed 'cause it won't happen. Bowhunting is tough enough as it is.
ridgetops
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,724
The success on the muzzy hunt has increased very little also since scopes were allowed. It will change very little if they are outlawed again too.
ridgetops
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,724
There was no named calling in my last response to you. You moron! lol
I was simply giving my opinion about your comment about wanting other hunters to come home empty handed just so you can hunt every year. Seemed like a selfish comment to me.
Guess what pal, next year will be 40 straight year that I have had a deer tag and if I had chosen to, I could have had a general season elk tag every year to for the past 30. There's already plenty of opportunity for people to hunt without giving out a bunch more tags. Then you start spreading lies about me when you claim I'm a long range hunter. I've always have kept 180 yards as my max range. I've never killed anything past 150 yards with my muzzy. Does that sound like a long rang shooter?
And thanks for saying I'm a dishonest person. Real classy!
slamdunk
Moderator
- Messages
- 10,389
I believe the biggest complaint is a lot DO connect, but non vital hits......same complaint as all weapon choices with long range shots.
Except with muzzleloaders....the consensus seems to be muzzleloaders need a scope to be more accurate and save game from being wasted.
(I'm being facetious of course, but my comment is very valid based off numerous comments ?)
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Hey JakeH!
Read Ridges Post # 187!
There's No Solid Proof That Proves Scopes on SmokePoles Has Increased Success Rates As Much as Some Think they Have,Sure,It's Increased a Little,But Please Show Me Where Newer StickFlippers & Long Range Rifles Hasn't Increased a Little As Well!
Don't Tell Me The Technology Hasn't Advanced On All 3 Weapon Types!
If You're Gonna Take!
You're Gonna Take From My StickFlipper!
You're Gonna Take From My SmokePole!
You're Gonna Take From My Long Range Rifle!
Every Weapon Type Has Advanced in Technology Immensely!
Be F'N Careful What You Wish For!
Everybody Harpin on One Type of Weapon Is TOTAL BS!
Read Ridges Post # 187!
There's No Solid Proof That Proves Scopes on SmokePoles Has Increased Success Rates As Much as Some Think they Have,Sure,It's Increased a Little,But Please Show Me Where Newer StickFlippers & Long Range Rifles Hasn't Increased a Little As Well!
Don't Tell Me The Technology Hasn't Advanced On All 3 Weapon Types!
If You're Gonna Take!
You're Gonna Take From My StickFlipper!
You're Gonna Take From My SmokePole!
You're Gonna Take From My Long Range Rifle!
Every Weapon Type Has Advanced in Technology Immensely!
Be F'N Careful What You Wish For!
Everybody Harpin on One Type of Weapon Is TOTAL BS!
Elkslayer2015
Active Member
- Messages
- 853
Holy crap you guys.
Just so everyone know we have been wounding animals for years so don't use that for an excuse.
Karl
Your job is not easy at all! look at this crap.
Even know archery has the least success ( with all the days they get to hunt) let's ban sliders and Mounted electronic range finders.
Muzzleloaders is the next least success! Then we ban scopes. Open sights or Red dot only.
Rifle hunters will only use 3x9 scopes with no drop compensation.
If they can't agree on any of that then I say split the tags evenly GS/LE Deer/Elk 33.33% across the board
But if this is an option, you will have to split the archery hunt up into 14 days so its fair across the board.
Heaven for bid If we want to talk about fair well this is fair.
Just so everyone know we have been wounding animals for years so don't use that for an excuse.
Karl
Your job is not easy at all! look at this crap.
Even know archery has the least success ( with all the days they get to hunt) let's ban sliders and Mounted electronic range finders.
Muzzleloaders is the next least success! Then we ban scopes. Open sights or Red dot only.
Rifle hunters will only use 3x9 scopes with no drop compensation.
If they can't agree on any of that then I say split the tags evenly GS/LE Deer/Elk 33.33% across the board
But if this is an option, you will have to split the archery hunt up into 14 days so its fair across the board.
Heaven for bid If we want to talk about fair well this is fair.
Elkrunning-Scared
Active Member
- Messages
- 122
I hunt muzzy.
Take elk hunting for instance!
Since they allowed scopes it has made my life a lot easier and it also has pushed the range of my muzzy.
This has also opened up the door for the muzzy manufacturer to take the range and accuracy to another level.
Definitely has put me in the same playing field as a rifle. It has gave me the ability to shoot in low light and when your hunting dark timber with 45 minutes of shooting light it definitely helps when your hunting elk that is a plus for sure.
I have old man eyes as well. I’m totally fine with it going back to open sights and red dot.
Take elk hunting for instance!
Since they allowed scopes it has made my life a lot easier and it also has pushed the range of my muzzy.
This has also opened up the door for the muzzy manufacturer to take the range and accuracy to another level.
Definitely has put me in the same playing field as a rifle. It has gave me the ability to shoot in low light and when your hunting dark timber with 45 minutes of shooting light it definitely helps when your hunting elk that is a plus for sure.
I have old man eyes as well. I’m totally fine with it going back to open sights and red dot.
JakeH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,271
I'm not wishing for anything, but you sure seem too be.
As far as scopes on muzzys go,
I seen that, and if you've been paying any attention at all the last few months you could go back and see me arguing the exact same point as ridge.
All that aside even with all the "advanced technology" on a bow it's not nearly as successful a weapon as the other two choices, so why take any of the existing tech away?
If they make a bow that shoots accurately out to 150+ yards while also making it extremely easy for anyone to do it then you got a point to argue, until then it's not an issue.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
So 150 is The Magic F'N Mark?
GEEZUS!
When I Was Younger,The HAWKENS Wasn't Even Good for 120 in My Eyes!
When Archers Reach The 150 Mark!
The Magic Mark Will Be Bumped to 200!
GEEZUS!
When I Was Younger,The HAWKENS Wasn't Even Good for 120 in My Eyes!
When Archers Reach The 150 Mark!
The Magic Mark Will Be Bumped to 200!
I could pull my rifle out, having not shot it for a year, and be comfortable taking a 600 yard shot on a deer. On the other hand, I could practice every day, all year long, with my bow and I still wouldn't be comfortable taking a 100 yard shot. I think 70 would be the limit in that case.
I don’t think 150 yards will ever be a routine shoot with archery equipment. I also could be very wrong, but currently there are too many variables.
elkantlers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,713
I've heard of several deer killed with a bow out to 150. One at 176yds. But hey. archery is hard ? so let's leave them alone.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
And Fort GAWDS Sake Don't Do Anything With Long Rangers!
elkhunterUT
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,852
The vast majority of archers don’t have an effective range beyond 40-50 yards if we are really being honest.
Do these same guys take longer shots than that?-yes for sure, but now we are talking ethics and good luck regulating that. Can’t fix that with any weapon.
Archery is a close range game and always will be. The guys who can cleanly and ethically make an 80-100 yard shot with a bow are the exception and are very rare.
Do these same guys take longer shots than that?-yes for sure, but now we are talking ethics and good luck regulating that. Can’t fix that with any weapon.
Archery is a close range game and always will be. The guys who can cleanly and ethically make an 80-100 yard shot with a bow are the exception and are very rare.
Bearpaw Outfitters
Experience world class hunting for mule deer, elk, cougar, bear, turkey, moose, sheep and more.
Wild West Outfitters
Hunt the big bulls, bucks, bear and cats in southern Utah. Your hunt of a lifetime awaits.
J & J Outfitters
Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, shiras moose and mountain lions.
Shane Scott Outfitting
Quality trophy hunting in Utah. Offering FREE Utah drawing consultation. Great local guides.
Utah Big Game Outfitters
Specializing in bighorn sheep, mule deer, elk, mountain goat, lions, bears & antelope.
Apex Outfitters
We offer experienced guides who hunt Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope, Sheep, Bison, Goats, Cougar, and Bear.
Urge 2 Hunt
We offer high quality hunts on large private ranches around the state, with landowner vouchers.
Allout Guiding & Outfitting
Offering high quality mule deer, elk, bear, cougar and bison hunts in the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns.
Lickity Split Outfitters
General season and LE fully guided hunts for mule deer, elk, moose, antelope, lion, turkey, bear and coyotes.