I have 15 elk points and a proposal

fallguy

Active Member
Messages
737
I have 15 WY elk points and have tried to draw some of the top units but I’m usually a ½ to 1 point off. My situation is, I live in Colorado and am an experienced elk hunter that normally kills a bull every year and I have killed some good bulls. I will be 67 years old next fall and can still hike all day long but packing out a bull solo is no longer doable especially if it’s a warm season hunt. I know hiring an outfitter solves that issue but I just don’t care for that type of hunt.

At this point in time I’m thinking of applying for a unit a notch or two below the top ones. With that said, I don’t want to “overpay” too much just to be able to draw and get out of the WY game. I suspect point creep will be bad this year so choosing a unit based on historical point creep likely won’t work. I’d like to hunt an area where laying eyes on a 330 or better is doable.

I was thinking if I could get hooked up with some guys from WY that could help with packing out along with making some recommendations on areas to scout and hunt then I could return the favor in Colorado for either elk or deer. I spend a lot of time in the woods so I’d have things lined up for you.

So if anyone has an offer that may work based on my info above, please pm me so we can talk. Thank you.
 
"(a) No person shall hold himself out as, engage in the business of or act in the capacity of an outfitter or shall provide guide services or packing services for the purpose of taking any big or trophy game animal unless he is licensed as an outfitter or professional guide pursuant to this act."
 
"(a) No person shall hold himself out as, engage in the business of or act in the capacity of an outfitter or shall provide guide services or packing services for the purpose of taking any big or trophy game animal unless he is licensed as an outfitter or professional guide pursuant to this act."
So swapping a hunt and helping each other out where no money is transferred is illegal?
 
I believe that reg is meant for guys making money doing packing and/or guiding without a license and not guys helping each other out.
Maybe you might want to check into that. The law is not specific as to what you can or cannot receive for services like "packing".
 
Find a buddy to hunt with and it’s 100% ok! Just don’t receive or exchange anything as far as $ or gratuities and you both will be fine. A nonres can even hunt big game with a resident buddy inside the Wyo wilderness if the resident gets a guide license and accompanies the nonres.
 
Find a buddy to hunt with and it’s 100% ok! Just don’t receive or exchange anything as far as $ or gratuities and you both will be fine. A nonres can even hunt big game with a resident buddy inside the Wyo wilderness if the resident gets a guide license and accompanies the nonres.
Technically it doesn't have to be just money it could be anything of value which at that point could be anything
 
Find a buddy to hunt with and it’s 100% ok! Just don’t receive or exchange anything as far as $ or gratuities and you both will be fine. A nonres can even hunt big game with a resident buddy inside the Wyo wilderness if the resident gets a guide license and accompanies the nonres.
Did you just learn about this? Or didn't you know when you turned me in for helping a friend?
 
I'll do that just to be sure but would be shocked if it isn't legal.
Do you really need to be held by the hand by the point vultures?

Just use your points, draw a tag on your own, and go have a good time.

You're diluting your chances at a better tag, IMO/E.
 
This^ you have options at 15 pts. My sons have 12. They are between a rock and hard place, but young enough to be in good shape later. If they play the game.
 
Do you really need to be held by the hand by the point vultures?

Just use your points, draw a tag on your own, and go have a good time.

You're diluting your chances at a better tag, IMO/E.
Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not looking to point share or have someone take me out hunting. At 67 "having a good time" is pretty tough on a solo pack. I did it this year and it wasn't fun.
 
BuzzH I didn’t turn you in so get over it!

There’s a big difference between a guided hunt and sharing an experience and camp with a buddy.

There is something to be said about local knowledge for applying for tags and details about the quality of critters, experience, scouting , weather, and the unit to be hunted. Also nice if a 67 year old has help packing a critter the size of a bull elk out of rough country. To add to this is the safety factor of an older gentleman hunting and camping in the boonies alone.
 
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BuzzH I didn’t turn you in so get over it!
Yes, you did, time to just admit it and get over it.

I can repost your comments regarding it if you want...and it sounds like the OP isn't interested in point sharing with you and your "local knowledge", so get over that too.

Plus it sounds like you have a real history of ghosting your "friends" once you use their points, even while on the hunt.
 
Your best "friend" is right here:


Lots of great options for a quality elk hunt for even a 67 year old hunter with 15 points that doesn't like to pack.

I would also recommend one of these, more reliable than an internet "friend" that has "local knowledge" as long as they get to use your 15 elk points:


My Grandfather hunted alone, without internet "friends" or an inreach, or even a cell phone, until he was 85 years old. Often stayed out for a week or more at a time in camp, alone, when we were working.

I went up to check on him when he was 84 and he had a buck and doe whitetail hanging in our Montana hunting camp that he'd shot during the week. Not surprisingly, he also had a neatly stacked half cord of fire wood he cut and split.

He just didn't worry about his age I guess...we never did.
 
The gentleman is looking for someone to accompany him and possible help pack out a bull. He mentioned he doesn’t want to point share. What does his post and me supposedly ghosting others have to do with his questions and my posts above? Do you know if I contacted him and asked him to share points with me?

Like usual, you have no clue to any details on the exciting trips I've shared with others! Buzz, who did I hunt with this year and did I ghost them? How about last year....and the year before?

Buzz, your saga continues! Go ahead and prove that I turned you in to the WG&F Buzz because that’s a flat out lie! How do I know....I didn't report you! You don’t exactly have many friends on this or any other website. It could have been just about anyone that’s tired of you and your internet BS! How many times have you been tossed from this and other websites?
 
The gentleman is looking for someone to accompany him and possible help pack out a bull. He mentioned he doesn’t want to point share. What does his post and me supposedly ghosting others have to do with his questions and my posts above? Do you know if I contacted him and asked him to share points with me?

Like usual, you have no clue to any details on the exciting trips I've shared with others! Buzz, who did I hunt with this year and did I ghost them? How about last year....and the year before?

Buzz, your saga continues! Go ahead and prove that I turned you in to the WG&F Buzz because that’s a flat out lie! How do I know....I didn't report you! You don’t exactly have many friends on this or any other website. It could have been just about anyone that’s tired of you and your internet BS! How many times have you been tossed from this and other websites?
Awesome post.
 
So swapping a hunt and helping each other out where no money is transferred is illegal?

From the Deputy Chief at the time when I inquired....

"
///
First, I suggest you go to The Wyoming Board of Outfitters and Professional Guides website https://outfitters.wyo.gov/ and look at the state statutes and rules, with specific attention to the definition of Outfitter, Professional Guide Compensation or Enumeration. Also, feel free to contact Amanda McKee, Outfitter Board administrator.

As you will see, the questions you pose regarding being included in a party application and paying or receiving money for yours/others preference points as a party application member, and providing logistical/general hunting help are questions that are not clearly answered by the statutes and rules. Ultimately, it will be up to a court to decide, if and when a prosecutor brings charges.

Regarding Hunt Swapping - please see Wyoming Statute 23-3-401, which can be found on the Outfitter Board website.
/////
"
 
The gentleman is looking for someone to accompany him and possible help pack out a bull. He mentioned he doesn’t want to point share. What does his post and me supposedly ghosting others have to do with his questions and my posts above? Do you know if I contacted him and asked him to share points with me?

Like usual, you have no clue to any details on the exciting trips I've shared with others! Buzz, who did I hunt with this year and did I ghost them? How about last year....and the year before?

Buzz, your saga continues! Go ahead and prove that I turned you in to the WG&F Buzz because that’s a flat out lie! How do I know....I didn't report you! You don’t exactly have many friends on this or any other website. It could have been just about anyone that’s tired of you and your internet BS! How many times have you been tossed from this and other websites?
Congrats to Mathew on a great bull! Nothing like hunting with internet friends....right Buzz? The brand new Sitka gear is an added touch!! Sweet looking binos and bino case around your neck...hint….hint!!!

(iv) “Compensation” and “Remuneration” mean payment of any kind,
without regard to value or agreement, including tips, presents, exchange of property or
services, or bartering for guide services.

Well Jim, I wasn't going to chime in as you used another good thread on an internet forum to make your sixth-grade school yard case that folks are up to no good. But, you've now made such an uneducated ass of yourself in this thread that I have no choice.

You might want to go to the threads on other forums where you and others are implying, and some stating outright, that I pay for points and/or guiding services with product. Here are the facts and when you hear/read them and realize how far out in the weeds you are, hopefully you will never come back to this forum (we could only be so lucky).

Simply put, I don't pay anyone for points or guiding services. That might disappoint you. You like to tell the world how I operate and you seem to think your lies and bullshit about me are justified.

Here is how it goes, and you can ask many people on this forum who have been guests on our show, how it worked for them.

First, we do party apps with family and friends. In this hunt, I wasn't even on the app. Matthew had 12 points and Larry had 9. That was an average of 10.5. Neither of them did it because they wanted to piggy pack on the points of others. Matthew and Larry have a life-long close relationship. Larry treats Matthew like the son he never had. Matthew thinks Larry is the grandfather he never got to know. When given the choice to apply in a max point unit or drop down for the fun of hunting with Larry, Matthew didn't even blink.

I did two party apps for hunts in 2018. One was NM, with my Uncle and one was AK bear with Spitz, neither state has a point system. In 2017 I drew one party app hunt, an Arizona deer hunt with a college buddy from 30+ years ago. I had 11 points, he had 5. I shared my points with him to make sure we would draw. I wanted to hunt with him and fulfill a long-standing commitment we had made to hunt together. In 2016, Matthew had a ton of NV deer points. He and I did our normal party app, since he prefers to hunt with others for the social aspects. We could have had a higher number, but we decided to offer Spitz to be part of our app, bringing us down from 8 to 5. I could go back many years and list every party app we have done, some with me having more points, some with others have more points. They were all family or friends, not strangers I sent PMs on hunting forums begging them to share their points, as some seem to be doing these days.

So, take your points schemes and the rumors around such and stick them in your ear.

As for paying for guiding services, via giving gear, you are again a clueless and seemingly sniveling about the fact that a lot of people have friends who actually help each other for the benefit of the friendship they have. The rest of this is going to disappoint you and make you look like a bigger fool.

When we finished that WY hunt, Buzz handed me the clothes we had loaned him; yeah, the same clothes you are implying that he was "paid" for illegal guiding services. He returned the loaners the same as my Uncle Jim did in NM, the same as Spitz did in NV, the same as most every single hunter we've ever imposed on by saying they must use our gear if they are on our show. Seems the least we can do is offer to loan them the gear we demand they use.

Yeah, I said loan. For your clarification, Webster defines a loan as - verb 1.borrow (a sum of money or item of property).i.e. "the word processor was loaned to us by the theater"

The same applies to the optics Buzz was using. Those optics, including the harness you want to make such a big deal about, are right here on the floor next to me. If you want me to post a pic, I will.

Futhermore, Buzz paid for all of his own gas, brought his own food, and incurred plenty of his own expense to help a friend he has known for over a decade. He did eat a few of our Hostess Donettes, so if you want to call WY G&F or the outfitter board in WY over a few doughnuts, knock yourself out. He took time off work and I suspect he used PTO on those days. He didn't get paid or reimbursed a single penny for his time or expenses. Sorry to ruin your fantasy dreams of a "gotcha moment."

I didn't chime in on the Rokslide, Bowsite, and MM threads when you and others started the bullshit rumors (actually lies) as some sort of justification to defend your point piggy back scheme. It comes with the territory I operate in and saying anything to set the record straight would seem like I was overly sensitive. So, I let it die and moved along, laughing at the uninformed bullshit that gets spewed on Al Gore's internet. Whether out of ignorance or malice, it is a frequent part of my daily life and I most often ignore it. In this case, you've made it clear your motive is malice, either against me, or someone who incurred a lot of time and expense to make good on a promise we had made to share a hunt together some day.

To come on the forum I own, that I manage, and say this uninformed bullshit is about par for the course, based on what I see you and others post on forums. Ask IDBugler, Lawnboy, Schmalts, Oak, Spitz, MN Taxidermist, NV Longbow, Cushman, Randy11, or any of the others who have been on our episodes. They were all asked to use our gear. In every instance it was loaned (refer to definition above). They were kind enough to wear and use what we asked, and for that I owe them a large debt of gratitude.

Sitka, the gear you state has been given to Buzz as illegal guiding payments, sends me camo sets of every size, expecting us to have guests wearing their clothes, no matter the guest's size. These clothes get loaned to guests. I take them back after the hunt and loan them to the next person when we have a guest of that size. I have a huge inventory of Sitka gear, sorted by size, down in my basement that I can send a picture of if is helps you realize how far out in the weeds you are in these crazy implications. When Sitka tells me to give away the old stuff when they send me new stuff, it ends up going to the person who can most easily come and get it. Leupold sends me optics to make sure every person has a set to use. Same with Howa. Same with (insert sponsor name here).

Contrary to the uninformed belief of you and others, these companies don't send me truck loads of gear to hand out like candy. Howa even has to "loan" me the rifles, due to how their attorney interprets the ATF rules related to non-dealer transfers. I read on MM where it was stated I pay people with Howa rifles. Might want to ask Howa why I have to do an annual inventory and why I still get memo-invoices for every firearm they have sent me in the last eight years.

Your comments are so clueless that it is not worth going on any further. I suggest you go to MM, Rokslide, Bowsite, and the other places where you and other ass clowns like to post this false **** and share this thread with them. Not sure it would make a difference, given the strange motives that must drive the childish crap that folks find comfort in spewing about things they have no idea of.

Standby, as in about ten minutes I will have a photo posted of the binos you are claiming I paid to Buzz as some sort of backdoor, under the table, illegal outfitting payment.
 
The gentleman is looking for someone to accompany him and possible help pack out a bull. He mentioned he doesn’t want to point share. What does his post and me supposedly ghosting others have to do with his questions and my posts above? Do you know if I contacted him and asked him to share points with me?

Like usual, you have no clue to any details on the exciting trips I've shared with others! Buzz, who did I hunt with this year and did I ghost them? How about last year....and the year before?

Buzz, your saga continues! Go ahead and prove that I turned you in to the WG&F Buzz because that’s a flat out lie! How do I know....I didn't report you! You don’t exactly have many friends on this or any other website. It could have been just about anyone that’s tired of you and your internet BS! How many times have you been tossed from this and other websites?
Still in denial Sebastian?

jims, here are the binos and harness you imply/claim Buzz was paid as you posted...

(iv) “Compensation” and “Remuneration” mean payment of any kind,
without regard to value or agreement, including tips, presents, exchange of property or
services, or bartering for guide services.

Not sure how they were a payment to him when they came back to Montana with me.

62483-d08efae4acb338e468241d281f368176.jpg
 
Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not looking to point share or have someone take me out hunting. At 67 "having a good time" is pretty tough on a solo pack. I did it this year and it wasn't fun.

I won't tell you where to apply but it took only a few seconds to find a cpl hunt areas I wouldn't hesitate to apply for, with expectations of applying, drawing, and having a great hunt, and I'll be 67 for 2023 as well. There will be multiple people in nearby camps that would help with a packout if you needed it.
 
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Finally, to the OP, be careful of internet "friends", in particular guys like Sebastian.

He's only your "friend" when there's points to share or something in it for him.

Jims never has a friend longer than it takes him to use their points, then he's off to the next "friend" with points. Its also been pointed out that jims ghosted a disabled hunter "friend" that shared his points for deer a few years back. He also forgot to tell another guy he was going to share points with that there was a $750 trespass fee in the pronghorn area that he was using that guys points to obtain.

That's why I'm suggesting you do your research and hunt on your own, its not worth it when some are in it for themselves.

If you have a real life friend that's a different story, share points, party app and hunt together. The internet seems to attract some real shady characters who are posting on these boards only to benefit themselves (Sebastian is a classic example).

Just be aware, that's my public service announcement for the day.
 
You’d be fine receiving help from someone in return for help provided. It’s called friendship.
I’m sure someone will reach out. Lots of guys are looking for hunting buddies.
It's a matter of time before you get pinched and I don't really care if you boot me off here for saying it
 
It's a matter of time before you get pinched and I don't really care if you boot me off here for saying it
Why would I boot you off for a wishful, silly, foolish thought? Come on!!! You’ve been wrong and will continue to be so. That I can promise. :)

In fact, we both know each other equally as well, and I’m betting you get pinched for what you do loooong before I get pinched for anything. I don’t really care either if you go storming off the site for me saying it.
 
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Why would I boot you off for a wishful, silly, foolish thought? Come on!!! You’ve been wrong and will continue to be so. That I can promise. :)

In fact, we both know each other equally as well, and I’m betting you get pinched for what you do loooong before I get pinched for anything. I don’t really care either if you go storming off the site for me saying it.
come on man selling "glassing locations" and taking people hunting for sharing points you're riding the line. It's a matter of time really.
 
From the Deputy Chief at the time when I inquired....

"
///
First, I suggest you go to The Wyoming Board of Outfitters and Professional Guides website https://outfitters.wyo.gov/ and look at the state statutes and rules, with specific attention to the definition of Outfitter, Professional Guide Compensation or Enumeration. Also, feel free to contact Amanda McKee, Outfitter Board administrator.

As you will see, the questions you pose regarding being included in a party application and paying or receiving money for yours/others preference points as a party application member, and providing logistical/general hunting help are questions that are not clearly answered by the statutes and rules. Ultimately, it will be up to a court to decide, if and when a prosecutor brings charges.

Regarding Hunt Swapping - please see Wyoming Statute 23-3-401, which can be found on the Outfitter Board website.
/////
"
Thanks Bob - good to get a reply that actually pertains to my post.
 
My initial question was to the Chief Game Warden (I didn't know of the outfitter board), who then fwd it to the Deputy Chief who was on the Outfitter Board:

"If I reach an agreement with another party whereby I will provide logistical and general hunting help in exchange for their inclusion on a party application, is their preference point contribution considered compensation and would I therefor come under jurisdiction of the guide/outfitter regulations?"

The Deputy Chief told me he would take it up at the next meeting. After that meeting, the response above is what I got for the most part. I was expecting better direction since it was supposedly discussed but that's what I got.
 
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Thanks Bob - good to get a reply that actually pertains to my post.
Maybe you might want to check into that. The law is not specific as to what you can or cannot receive for services like "packing".

My comments were merely to help keep you out of hot water. Trading help during a hunt is not the same as trading for packing services. All these sites are monitored by G&F in case you didn't know.
 
If there ever was a thread or a post about why you should never ask a question on the internet, this would be it. LOL
We are slightly off topic on this one
?

I think the OP was looking for someone to hunt with. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of good areas with 15 points to have a good hunt. If you don't find the right person, you could line up an outfitter to pack it for you.
 
We are slightly off topic on this one
?

I think the OP was looking for someone to hunt with. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of good areas with 15 points to have a good hunt. If you don't find the right person, you could line up an outfitter to pack it for you.
Not so much to hunt with but to help pack out. Thanks for reeling the post in.
 
There are great bulls shot in wilderness where you’ll have fewer hunters to contend with if you can find a res buddy to join you with a guides license. You may have the opportunity for a whopper bull if you can draw one of these high demand tags.

Glad you’ve gotten the warning not to offer anything in exchange for someone helping out and hunting with you. There are some great hunting opportunities in Wyo and I hope you can take full advantage of your points and find someone to enjoy the scenery and wildlife! You have a lot to look forward to!

Llamas are a great option but it may take a pretty big pack string or several trips. A large llama can handle around 80 to 90 lbs.

Buzz, I’ll say it again, I wasn’t the person that reported you to the WG&F so get over it!
 
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come on man selling "glassing locations" and taking people hunting for sharing points you're riding the line. It's a matter of time really.
There’s nothing I do that’s at all a problem. I have email correspondence from some very high ups in the WY G&F that have given me the thumbs up. What about you and what you do? I think it’s only a matter of time for you Bookhead. I’d sure rather be me than you, that’s for sure.
 
Finally, to the OP, be careful of internet "friends", in particular guys like Sebastian.

He's only your "friend" when there's points to share or something in it for him.

Jims never has a friend longer than it takes him to use their points, then he's off to the next "friend" with points. Its also been pointed out that jims ghosted a disabled hunter "friend" that shared his points for deer a few years back. He also forgot to tell another guy he was going to share points with that there was a $750 trespass fee in the pronghorn area that he was using that guys points to obtain.

That's why I'm suggesting you do your research and hunt on your own, its not worth it when some are in it for themselves.

If you have a real life friend that's a different story, share points, party app and hunt together. The internet seems to attract some real shady characters who are posting on these boards only to benefit themselves (Sebastian is a classic example).

Just be aware, that's my public service announcement for the day.
Can’t you and Jims meet somewhere, duel, and get this over with? My hell, fight it out somewhere other than on the internet behind keyboard’s. It exhausting and I get messages from people who want you two to end it already.
The attacks are getting old real fast and I'm going to have to do something, so I’m asking you to end it. Fight in private. Meet in a dark alley and settle it.
 
Can’t you and Jims meet somewhere, duel, and get this over with? My hell, fight it out somewhere other than on the internet behind keyboard’s. It exhausting and I get messages from people who want you two to end it already.
The attacks are getting old real fast and I'm going to have to do something, so I’m asking you to end it. Fight in private. Meet in a dark alley and settle it.
The problem with that is Jims would never show up.
 
One DEW Went Down at 4 AM!

Just Set Another DEW Out On The Porch!

Shouldn't Take Long To CHILL at -8!

This Thread Is Gettin Good!:D
 
There’s nothing I do that’s at all a problem. I have email correspondence from some very high ups in the WY G&F that have given me the thumbs up. What about you and what you do? I think it’s only a matter of time for you Bookhead. I’d sure rather be me than you, that’s for sure.
I have no idea what it is that you think I do lol
 
There’s nothing I do that’s at all a problem. I have email correspondence from some very high ups in the WY G&F that have given me the thumbs up. What about you and what you do? I think it’s only a matter of time for you Bookhead. I’d sure rather be me than you, that’s for sure.

60353C78-9C9C-4E56-ACB3-19F70FFECB84.gif
 
I thought I would start a new post in the campfire section named "Bashing on MM" to possibly sort through this discussion. I apologize for dragging on some of the negativity in this post.
 
So does a group of hunters helping each other in scouting and camping together hauling out animals together is somehow breaking the law??????
Is this really how you look at it.
 
So does a group of hunters helping each other in scouting and camping together hauling out animals together is somehow breaking the law??????
Is this really how you look at it.
According to the Wyoming outfitter review board it surely could be. Accepting a sandwich, soda, or bottle of water could be considered compensation for information, packing, or assisting on a hunt could be considered illegal outfitting.

The laws/regulations need to be clarified.
 
Getting back to the OP. I am in the same position. At my age I can still pretty much hunt where I want. That being said I am sure not able to pack out an elk solo. It's a tuff position to be in. I have no desire to hire a guide. I have no problem hiring a packer but they are hard to line up. I tried last year in WY and got the run around. Even a guide I thought I was friends with told me a packer was unavailable when he was.
 
ok question. selling GPS coordinates is illegal. when i called game and fish for where rams were killed they said no cause its illegal for them to share although they are not selling but said if i could get my hands on previous years when they use to share that info that would be best. see the confusion here. In my mind a sharing a location to where a ram already died does me no good. I just wanted the info to see what areas have been hunted out and a i wanted a pattern where rams are killed in sept vs october.
 
According to the Wyoming outfitter review board it surely could be. Accepting a sandwich, soda, or bottle of water could be considered compensation for information, packing, or assisting on a hunt could be considered illegal outfitting.

The laws/regulations need to be clarified.
When I was buying my morning coffee at Speedway, I asked the clerk if he knew where the bucks were in the area. He told me where, and as I paid him, I said “keep the change”. Should I be worried? Is Jims still on this thread?
 
Can’t you and Jims meet somewhere, duel, and get this over with? My hell, fight it out somewhere other than on the internet behind keyboard’s. It exhausting and I get messages from people who want you two to end it already.
The attacks are getting old real fast and I'm going to have to do something, so I’m asking you to end it. Fight in private. Meet in a dark alley and settle it.
I sure wish they would quit fighting on here it seems like they are about on every thread fighting about something.
 
Your best "friend" is right here:


Lots of great options for a quality elk hunt for even a 67 year old hunter with 15 points that doesn't like to pack.

I would also recommend one of these, more reliable than an internet "friend" that has "local knowledge" as long as they get to use your 15 elk points:


My Grandfather hunted alone, without internet "friends" or an inreach, or even a cell phone, until he was 85 years old. Often stayed out for a week or more at a time in camp, alone, when we were working.

I went up to check on him when he was 84 and he had a buck and doe whitetail hanging in our Montana hunting camp that he'd shot during the week. Not surprisingly, he also had a neatly stacked half cord of fire wood he cut and split.

He just didn't worry about his age I guess...we never did.
He probably had a personality similar to yours and that's why he had no friends to hunt with.
 
I would come pack it out for him, I plan on drawing it again, heck he could hunt with me.
Also my nephew should draw the tag, he has max points. I Did find some great bulls.

OP, PM me for a push in the right direction.

I just will not pull another double by myself ?
 

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