Elk Hunting One Pool - What would you do?

Vanilla · Jan 14, 2023

This question was asked in another thread and the poster said he’d do a poll if he knew how, so here we are!

What if elk hunting went into one pool only? You draw any tag here, you lose your points. No wait period, you can jump right back in each year.

I realize there wouldn’t be general vs LE units anymore, just using those terms to differentiate types of units available.

I have no idea what this would do to point pools. We can presume hunting cows or spikes would be nearly a yearly event. Rifle hunting on San Juan would still take a really long time to draw. But what elk hunting experience would you go for?

JakeH · Jan 14, 2023

Personally, I'm not a fan of the proposal, but would pick a lower tier LE unit with hopes of hunting every few years.

But this would change the landscape so much it's hard to say where I would end up.

elkassassin · Jan 15, 2023

Why Not Just Open It Up To Year Around Hunting?

You Know!

You See An Animal You Want Just Shoot It!

Make Season open 365!

No More Crowded Opening Days!(Probably Be Crowded Every Day!

)

Anybody Remember Opening Day On Strawberry Reservoir?

Best Thing They Ever Did Was Year Around Fishing!

The Way I Got It Figured With Year Around Hunting There Wouldn't Be A F'N Thing Left after 2 Years!

jims · Jan 15, 2023

This may work better for res vs nonres. There are so few nonres tags issued that low, medium, and top tier units would all still require close to max pts or have horrible draw odds.

If res point creep has been occurring I’m pretty sure this would likely trickle over to pt creep in low tier units as res would jump ship and try to draw lower tier tags. Also, as more applicants enter the draw every year this may just merely delay things.

Any system where hunters burn points rather than hunting without using pts will likely help pt creep. A great example is otc elk units in Colo. Around 80% of colos elk units are otc where hunters can hunt each year without burning any pts. No wonder pt creep for Colo elk is so bad!

Vanilla · Jan 15, 2023

To be clear, I’m not advocating for this plan. Another poster wanted a poll and didn’t know how to do it.

It interesting to see where people’s priorities are. Utah has something for everyone in elk hunting. But if you want a top tier elk tag, you’re going to have to wait for it. (Or buy it every year, that is also an option.)

elkassassin · Jan 15, 2023

And If You Want a PISSCUTTER/Spike Go Hunt General Units!

Vanilla said:
To be clear, I’m not advocating for this plan. Another poster wanted a poll and didn’t know how to do it.

It interesting to see where people’s priorities are. Utah has something for everyone in elk hunting. But if you want a top tier elk tag, you’re going to have to wait for it. (Or buy it every year, that is also an option.)

gundog2 · Jan 15, 2023

I have advocated this proposal several times because it seems like the only way to to address the problems of having a limited resource in high demand. I would go for a top tier unit because I have 24 points as a resident. Then I would probably for antlerless hunts after I draw out and serve waiting period.

In our current LE draw system, you can only apply for buck or bull, but not both. Perhaps it should still apply.

Great poll, btw.

gundog2 · Jan 15, 2023

jims said:
This may work better for res vs nonres. There are so few nonres tags issued that low, medium, and top tier units would all still require close to max pts or have horrible draw odds.

If res point creep has been occurring I’m pretty sure this would likely trickle over to pt creep in low tier units as res would jump ship and try to draw lower tier tags. Also, as more applicants enter the draw every year this may just merely delay things.

Any system where hunters burn points rather than hunting without using pts will likely help pt creep. A great example is otc elk units in Colo. Around 80% of colos elk units are otc where hunters can hunt each year without burning any pts. No wonder pt creep for Colo elk is so bad!

I agree that it would not affect odds of NR in LE hunts, but it might make it very easy for a NR to get general or antlerless tags. Yes, I think this is idea of being able to hun without burning points is causing problems in other states like CO, WY, and MT.

hossblur · Jan 15, 2023

Either or, not both.

In fact either or, not any.

You should be able to apply for 1 elk tag each year.

LE
OTC
Cow.
CWMU

That system fixes it

Dudes are more than welcome to sit for decades if they want to, but with no fall back plan.

No more adding to point creep, then adding to OTC demand.

And, CWMU tags are sold BEFORE the draw.

Everyone can make their choice, but not use other avenues as a fall back.

No doing away with points, dudes will do that themselves with their choices.

Same for deer.

System fixes itself without penalizing anyone

yak4fish · Jan 15, 2023

Vanilla said:
This question was asked in another thread and the poster said he’d do a poll if he knew how, so here we are!

What if elk hunting went into one pool only? You draw any tag here, you lose your points. No wait period, you can jump right back in each year.

I realize there wouldn’t be general vs LE units anymore, just using those terms to differentiate types of units available.

I have no idea what this would do to point pools. We can presume hunting cows or spikes would be nearly a yearly event. Rifle hunting on San Juan would still take a really long time to draw. But what elk hunting experience would you go for?

Thanks.
This will be interesting.

Vanilla · Jan 15, 2023

hossblur said:
You should be able to apply for 1 elk tag each year.

I don’t know if this “fixes” anything, but it certainly makes people put their money where their mouth is.

I applied for three elk tags this year in Utah, was successful getting two of those three tags, and killed one elk.

I like having options, but once you make me decide, but I’ll enjoy hunting often and can wait for Bess and Lumpy to post their big bulls on the forum for me to see.

MrShane · Jan 15, 2023

It is going to be one of these types of hard-to-swallow plans that is going to have to happen sooner or later to slow point creep.
It is inevitable.

notdonhunting · Jan 15, 2023

I have never put in for antlerless.
I have only hunted spikes once in the last 10 plus years.
I am heavily vested in LE points for deer, so hunting mature bulls I will probably be using a walker by then.

txhunter58 · Jan 15, 2023

As a NR with close to 20 points, I would continue to put in for LE hunts until I get drawn. Then I would switch to general any bull or cow tags.

That is also my game plan under the current system. I think it would take quite a few years to ever even out, at least for NRs

Elkslayer1125 · Jan 15, 2023

I think this is a great idea, I’d likely be putting in for a general archery tag every year.

gundog2 · Jan 16, 2023

Another interesting thing to consider, for people following this thread, would be what do your kids, wife, or elderly father do now versus what they would do if this system were implemented (if any of these hunting relationships apply).

BrowningRage · Jan 16, 2023

Add CWMU tags (won, purchased, gifted, whatever) and you might be onto something... No more putting in for LE, and then buying a CWMU tag if you don't draw without it costing you BPs.

gundog2 · Jan 16, 2023

BrowningRage said:
Add CWMU tags (won, purchased, gifted, whatever) and you might be onto something... No more putting in for LE, and then buying a CWMU tag if you don't draw without it costing you BPs.

I can't afford to buy a CWMU elk tag, so it doesn't really matter to me, but I would have to argue that purchase and sale of CWMU tags would be independent of the public draw tags. Taking the BP away would give an unfair advantage to nonresidents over residents that might want to buy CWMU tags and it might diminish the value of CWMU tags. I'm not sure best way to explain what I mean, but consider example of some nonresident that has never considered hunting before. This person has no bonus points and no hope of ever getting enough bonus points to draw a good LE tag. This person has nothing to lose buying a CWMU permit. Conversely, a resident that has 24 points (like me) and the money (more than me) would be deterred from buying a CWMU tag, whereas the nonresident has nothing to lose. I guess I feel like someone's ability to purchase or sell CWMU tags at competitive market values should be independent of the public draw tags.

My other argument would be that there probably are not that many residents buying CWMU tags so I'm not sure it makes that much difference?

Airborne · Jan 16, 2023

Year 1-->cash out my LE elk points and hunt

All other years after that-->Hunt the Current OTC any bull units. Maybe once in a while I would put in for a cow tag to mix it up but that would be it. I would be putting in for hunts I could draw every year, even if that was spike only with a recurve, I don't care. Sitting on the sidelines ain't for me and you only live once!

Vanilla · Jan 16, 2023

I’m not sure how feasible this system is as a real plan. Maybe we would go there, maybe we wouldn’t. I’m quite confident the CWMU aspect isn’t going to be included.

CWMUs are a different animal, and need to be viewed that way. I just don’t think you will ever get a rule change that includes those purchased CWMU tags taking up points. Ever. Not saying people are wrong for wanting that. I simply looking at the feasibility or how realistic it is. I don’t see it happening.

But maybe?

gundog2 · Jan 16, 2023

I think the public CWMU draw tags would be included in the “one pool elk lottery“, as they are now, but I can’t really see why the open-market tags would be included in it. I know they like to emphasize that these open-market tags do not affect bonus points now, as one of the selling point.

Now, I would argue that we could put all the expo tags back into the public lottery, lol.

Vanilla · Jan 16, 2023

There isn’t a system anyone could possibly design where the convention and expo tags should NOT go back into the public draw.

We simply need to get these “conservation” orgs off government welfare subsidy programs and put the tags back where they belong.

elkassassin · Jan 16, 2023

Hey Niller!

I Think We'd Have A Better Chance Of You & Me Starting Another Org Than Ever Getting Them Tags Back!

Vanilla said:
There isn’t a system anyone could possibly design where the convention and expo tags should NOT go back into the public draw.

We simply need to get these “conservation” orgs off government welfare subsidy programs and put the tags back where they belong.

Silentstalker · Jan 16, 2023

I would do what the majority of the hunters would do: Apply for my normal LE bull app and then buy a spike or any bull tag after the draw.
Im sure there would be some who only hunt cows and some who only hunt general but the majority would stick with their points IMO.
The DWR needs the revenue from those cow and general bull tags. I don’t think there is any way they would eat that funding by requiring hunters to burn bonus points in the draw on them.

gundog2 · Jan 17, 2023

Silentstalker said:
I would do what the majority of the hunters would do: Apply for my normal LE bull app and then buy a spike or any bull tag after the draw.
Im sure there would be some who only hunt cows and some who only hunt general but the majority would stick with their points IMO.
The DWR needs the revenue from those cow and general bull tags. I don’t think there is any way they would eat that funding by requiring hunters to burn bonus points in the draw on them.

That’s absolutely fine if you can pick up some leftover tags after the draw, but you might be surprised how few tags would be available after the draw because people would soon learn that they could get cow tags or spike tags or any bull tags of their choice nearly every year in the draw. They would obviously need hunters to buy cow tags one way or another, but there is no biological need for spike hunts if hunters don’t really want this type of hunt. They could create more lower or middle tier bull hunts if hunters really don’t give a rip about the spike hunts, but I’m not convinced that is true. Or maybe they just reduce the number of spike tags or any bull tags to a point where the quality of the hunts become more attractive.

Silentstalker · Jan 17, 2023

I think the biggest issue with this idea is the deeply seated entitlement of the “plentiful” 350+ bull.
I believe those spike/general tags would not get drawn initially.
I’m not against the idea but it would need to allow for after the draw purchase without using points or the budget shortfall I mentioned would be an issue. If you apply for the LE you risk not getting the better general units as they could potentially be gone in the draw.
Heck, I think the deer should be done the same way. It’s silly to have 2 distinct systems for deer and elk.

yak4fish · Jan 17, 2023

Silentstalker said:
I think the biggest issue with this idea is the deeply seated entitlement of the “plentiful” 350+ bull.
I believe those spike/general tags would not get drawn initially.
I’m not against the idea but it would need to allow for after the draw purchase without using points or the budget shortfall I mentioned would be an issue. If you apply for the LE you risk not getting the better general units as they could potentially be gone in the draw.
Heck, I think the deer should be done the same way. It’s silly to have 2 distinct systems for deer and elk.

I am not sure there would be many if any elk tags left after the draw, maybe the spike tags and a few antlerless. In my opinion most guys with less than five points would put in for a LE unit first choice then burn points to hunt another tag yearly. This would put a dent in point creep.

Vanilla · Jan 17, 2023

Silentstalker said:
I would do what the majority of the hunters would do: Apply for my normal LE bull app and then buy a spike or any bull tag after the draw.
Im sure there would be some who only hunt cows and some who only hunt general but the majority would stick with their points IMO.
The DWR needs the revenue from those cow and general bull tags. I don’t think there is any way they would eat that funding by requiring hunters to burn bonus points in the draw on them.

But in this hypothetical, you get a tag, you lose your points. So that doesn’t work.

HORNhunter7 · Jan 17, 2023

As a 69 year old non resident living in a state that has elk I would continue to apply for mid tier elk units. With point creep I'll never have enough points to draw a bonus tag in top tier units but should draw in a mid tier unit soon. Then I'll be done applying for elk in Utah.

twopointdn · Jan 17, 2023

I would be all for this as long as there is not a waiting period after drawing a tag. I would be happy with a low tier archery elk hunt every 3-4 years. If they did the same and combined the LE deer and General deer draw I would be looking for hunts I could draw every 1-2 years with a muzzleloader. I like hunting deer more than elk so my tolerance to wait a little longer for a better elk tag would go up. I like opportunity and I make the best of it when I have it. I have learned that hunting more often produces bigger animal for me over time than hunting a unit once in my lifetime. My best buck and best bull have come from OTC general units and I have had a handful of good draw tags in my lifetime. Just my thoughts.

matt23 · Jan 17, 2023

If everything was in the same pool I'd put in for the units I was most familiar with. Which would be lower/mid tier. I think all units hold some good bulls.

matt23 · Jan 17, 2023

I'll most likely be doing otc archery this year for elk. Doubt I'm going to draw what I put in for. I guess maybe an option on the poll is weapon. I mainly bow hunt. My wife and oldest son is rifle. All those options play a part in draws.