Utahs Hunt Application vs Weapons Allowed

Ok, my question is how does that limit the current long range setups that are killing deer at 1000+ yards and ALOT more of them? There isn't a whole lot of "skill" involved in today's long range setups. I think that's great "new" tech is on the table for rifles, but muzzy and archery are stepping back in time. If that's the route the tech committee is taking on rifles, then archery should keep Garmin sights, bait, and trail cams, muzzys should keep their scopes, powder, primers and just ban any emerging/new tech.....see how stupid all these bans are? It's not to help the herds, it's to pacify a majority group of whining rifle hunters that this state has catered to for years.
How many times can you hit a steel gong at 1000 yards with a rifle?
Do you even have the least amount of knowledge to know what skill it takes to put a tiny little bullet into a 10" plate at 1000 yards?
Absolutely no you do not, or you wouldn't be claiming it to be easy and any one can do it ?

You're an archer.
Would you roll your eyes if I stated anyone can pick up today's bow and hit vitals at 100 yards with ease?
No.....you'd eat my lunch over it.

I used to shoot archery year round on different state teams, indoor and outdoor "bowhunter freestyle unlimited" with a 288 average indoor score and even I know better to make such an insulting claim to fellow enthusiasts.
 
How many times can you hit a steel gong at 1000 yards with a rifle?
Do you even have the least amount of knowledge to know what skill it takes to put a tiny little bullet into a 10" plate at 1000 yards?
Absolutely no you do not, or you wouldn't be claiming it to be easy and any one can do it ?

You're an archer.
Would you roll your eyes if I stated anyone can pick up today's bow and hit vitals at 100 yards with ease?
No.....you'd eat my lunch over it.

I used to shoot archery year round on different state teams, indoor and outdoor "bowhunter freestyle unlimited" with a 288 average indoor score and even I know better to make such an insulting claim to fellow enthusiasts.
?
 
Bigwify
I think the real enemy in all of this is the utah DWR. Unlimited elk tags with 3 years before looking at impacts on herds - tells the story. It’s about revenue. Unlimited rifle second season general elk tags isn’t about anything else but $$$
There’s a reason why 250,000 tags on deer was reduced to 97,000. I won’t be surprised when that gets sold to us again.

You are 100% correct that the muzzy (not 100% sure on archery) hunters are getting the boot. I don’t necessarily think that this is the rifle hunters fault - but since a majority of hunters are using rifle - it stands to reason.

We are all getting conquered by division. Stories of 100 plus yard shots by archers and muzzleloaders that are as deadly as single shot rifles at 1000 yards -are extremely exaggerated to make us believe the average hunter is doing this. That’s not the case but those weapons are getting better. Better than centerfire rifles - not a chance. Your old 270 won’t hold a candle to a 6.5 Prc for example.
You guys are still missing the whole point.

It's not necessarily what is happening now in 2023, it's what will be happening in 2030 when those 100 yard bow shots and 500+ muzzleloader kills ARE the norm if we don't act now.

As technology emerges, so does availability and lower prices.

Snowball!
 
Because if it's not done now, where will it be in 10 years at the pace technology is going?

Because it's no secret the muzzleloader capabilities have quadrupled over the last decade.

The rifle hunts have been and always will be the longest range weapons of the three, and success rates higher for obvious reasons.

"I" am not the Committee, i take one seat of 20 and have one vote.

The WB are the ones who asked for a technology committee to be organized, i was just asked to be part of it.
We are not policemen or politicians, our job is to make "recommendations" for the WB to work off of, they have final say.
There is a desperate need to limit and govern emerging technologies and it should have been implemented a decade ago.
Anyone who doesn't understand this has their head in the sand and can't see that a line needs to be drawn.

Again, the ALW hunts will always dominate success rates regardless of restrictions.
Make it a scopeless lever action only hunt and it will still be the highest.
Rifle scope technologies are taking a hit here as well before everyone has a Burris Eliminator type of optic riding on top of their rifles and muzzleloaders with successrates so high that opportunityis lost.



As I have stated numerous times over the last few months, the Lapua I USED to hunt with has taken 2 muley bucks and one bear, all 3 of which were 100 yds or less.
I am not a "long range" killer just because wiffy says I am ?

So you ARE admitting muzzies do benefit from variable power scopes?
Archers miss August bucks so they can be shot at in September, no??‍♂️

It's been explained why for several reasons.
Why do so many surrounding states have muzzleloader restrictions?

The point YOU are missing is the key words "Emerging Technology"

A muzzleloader was once a 100 yard weapon until inlines "emerged", then they instantly became 200.
Then more technology "emerged" in components, powders, projectiles, ignition systems, etc, etc.
Remove or limit scopes, advanced components are completely unnecessary and effectiveness crippled.

Why?
As the interest in killing trophy game has exploded, technology grows to help us become more successful, especially as trophy quality drops along the way.
Snowball affect.

Question to you now.
"Why do you feel your muzzleloader needs to be able to keep up to the rifles?"

What was your initial reasoning for muzzleloader hunting to begin with?
Less spooky deer?
Bucks are still grouped up?
Less people?
Better weather?
All that couples up very nicely with a 400 yard "average" set up.

Bottom line-
Hunters complaining about the thoughts of removing variable scopes are doing it for one reason only.......because they know it cripples them "no matter how you spin it".

I am primarily a muzzleloader hunter in Utah.
I fully support restrictions on my scope to limit my current effective range.
If it ends up 4x or 1x, I will just have to hunt a little harder, and or hunt a little differently.

Carry on.......
@slamdunk

We are obviously not in agreement in our logic. That is okay. We don't have to be. But I will answer your questions and leave it at that.

You mention the term “emerging technologies”. I am not missing that term at all. Reread my posts. Burris scopes definitely fit that bill. As do scopes that automatically illuminate in conjunction with a rangefinder (SIG?).

In that light, the term "emerging technologies" in the muzzleloader world would mean smokeless powders, waterproof ignition systems, rifle primers, and who knows what comes next? Emerging technologies does not mean variable scopes, they have been around for decades. The muzzies you guys keep referring to are not simple inlines. They could be easily regulated or even removed by banning the use of the above mentioned technologies.

To answer your question, I do NOT think the muzzleloaders need to keep up with the rifle. I would like to see the WB place a realistic cap on that technology. I would like to see the smokeless powders, rifle primers, and waterproof ignition systems removed from the hunt. Removing these items would be just as/if not more effective to limiting range/effectiveness than removing scopes.

I know 2 guys using peep sights that can dial distance. LONG distance. If you pull scopes off their gun you have done nothing to limit their abilities cause they don't use them. They will still be killing deer and elk north of 500 yards. Now, you remove their smokeless powder and rifle primers, that range is cut in half... They have told me as much. Reality is, most guys can't shoot that well with any set up on a muzzy.

The benefit I see to a low variable scope such as a 3x9 or 4-12 are these:

1- availability- most scope companies actually offer scopes in this range. Cheap and expensive for all consumers. 4x scopes are not all that common anymore.
2- Wounding rate for the muzzy hunt IMO is lower with a variable scope. I know guys who would shoot and wound 2-3 deer a year with their iron sights and 1x scopes. Placing a limitation of iron sights or 1x scopes does not keep the hunter from shooting well beyond their capabilities.
3- Aging hunters like myself (50) struggle using iron sights. My close vision is not what it used to be. I need readers to tie on my flies when fishing. But past about a foot I cant have them on cause it makes everything else blurry as heck. A low variable scope is extremely helpful in aiming my gun. Will you have allowances for old age/vision??

Reasons I enjoy the muzzleloader hunt:
1- September weather
2- I hate the crowds of the rifle hunt
3- I enjoy the quietness of the mountains in early November chasing elk that seem to know how to literally disappear right out from under me.

Furthest shot I have ever taken with a muzzleloader - 210 yards at a spike elk (I missed with a variable scope). Distances I have killed at- anywhere from 20 yards out to about 130 yards.

I am not here to get a rise out of you or argue for arguments sake. I want my voice heard by the 1 person who is on this committee who has the balls to show up and discuss this (THANK YOU).

One of the most frustrating part of this is not knowing who is on this committee. Something this important and polarizing should be important enough to incur more input than the opinions of 20 people. Waiting for the RAC and WB meetings historically has been much too late in effecting change.
 
Great post.
@slamdunk

We are obviously not in agreement in our logic. That is okay. We don't have to be. But I will answer your questions and leave it at that.

You mention the term “emerging technologies”. I am not missing that term at all. Reread my posts. Burris scopes definitely fit that bill. As do scopes that automatically illuminate in conjunction with a rangefinder (SIG?).
It will be recommended that Illumination of cross hair continues to be legal.
Anything that automatically identifies, calculates or or communicates within the scope will be illegal.
In that light, the term "emerging technologies" in the muzzleloader world would mean smokeless powders, waterproof ignition systems, rifle primers, and who knows what comes next? Emerging technologies does not mean variable scopes, they have been around for decades. The muzzies you guys keep referring to are not simple inlines. They could be easily regulated or even removed by banning the use of the above mentioned technologies.
The reason components are emerging is because of the variable power scopes ability to utilize them.
High BC projectiles serve one purpose.

These particular LR inlines are not "simple" today, but will be in coming years.

Your point about banning the components versus scopes was discussed.
One is crippled without the other.
Restrictions on one is far more enforceable than several.
To answer your question, I do NOT think the muzzleloaders need to keep up with the rifle. I would like to see the WB place a realistic cap on that technology. I would like to see the smokeless powders, rifle primers, and waterproof ignition systems removed from the hunt. Removing these items would be just as/if not more effective to limiting range/effectiveness than removing scopes.

I know 2 guys using peep sights that can dial distance. LONG distance. If you pull scopes off their gun you have done nothing to limit their abilities cause they don't use them. They will still be killing deer and elk north of 500 yards. Now, you remove their smokeless powder and rifle primers, that range is cut in half... They have told me as much. Reality is, most guys can't shoot that well with any set up on a muzzy.
Same answer as above.
One restriction cripples several components.
The benefit I see to a low variable scope such as a 3x9 or 4-12 are these:

1- availability- most scope companies actually offer scopes in this range. Cheap and expensive for all consumers. 4x scopes are not all that common anymore.
2- Wounding rate for the muzzy hunt IMO is lower with a variable scope. I know guys who would shoot and wound 2-3 deer a year with their iron sights and 1x scopes. Placing a limitation of iron sights or 1x scopes does not keep the hunter from shooting well beyond their capabilities.
3- Aging hunters like myself (50) struggle using iron sights. My close vision is not what it used to be. I need readers to tie on my flies when fishing. But past about a foot I cant have them on cause it makes everything else blurry as heck. A low variable scope is extremely helpful in aiming my gun. Will you have allowances for old age/vision??
The wound argument doesn't have teeth, as stretching distance also causes botched shots.

There are COR permits for impaired vision.
(I am 56 and can't see through any of my scopes without reading glasses)
Reasons I enjoy the muzzleloader hunt:
1- September weather
2- I hate the crowds of the rifle hunt
3- I enjoy the quietness of the mountains in early November chasing elk that seem to know how to literally disappear right out from under me.

Furthest shot I have ever taken with a muzzleloader - 210 yards at a spike elk (I missed with a variable scope). Distances I have killed at- anywhere from 20 yards out to about 130 yards.

I am not here to get a rise out of you or argue for arguments sake. I want my voice heard by the 1 person who is on this committee who has the balls to show up and discuss this (THANK YOU).
Thank YOU!?
One of the most frustrating part of this is not knowing who is on this committee. Something this important and polarizing should be important enough to incur more input than the opinions of 20 people. Waiting for the RAC and WB meetings historically has been much too late in effecting
All committees are compromised of people from a wide array of entities including special interest groups, law enforcement, biologists, social media, past committees, etc, etc.

As I mentioned previously, committees are designed for one purpose and that is to offer "suggestions" for the WB to base decisions off of.
 
You guys are still missing the whole point.

It's not necessarily what is happening now in 2023, it's what will be happening in 2030 when those 100 yard bow shots and 500+ muzzleloader kills ARE the norm if we don't act now.

As technology emerges, so does availability and lower prices.

Snowball!
Slam
I don’t think we are missing the whole point. The whole point isn’t easy to digest. I’m on board with addressing tech. I understand that the issues are dividing us.
My eyes are also getting older so if I have to use a 4X that’s what I will do. I understand where bigwiffy and others are coming from as well.
When I stated that the utah DWR is the enemy - true story - meant to instill some feedback.
Is it a coincidence that unlimited general season elk tags and weapon restrictions are happening at the same time ?
Amazing that unlimited tags didn’t go to muzzy or bow hunters again on the second any weapon hunt -which would have lowered success rates But rifle hunters are allowed unlimited on the 2nd hunt. That makes reason as to why the other 1/2 (this thread) is seeing when limits are put on muzzleloader optics - but not rifles.
I guess you say it’s an any legal weapon hunt - and you would be correct. But really - who’s going to bring a bow to a rifle match ?


Is this gong to be another “Oops we made a mistake” from the DWR ?

I will live with restrictions if that’s what it takes- just won’t feel warm and fuzzy about it. I’m on board with the tech restrictions - just not the optics.

You’re 1 of 20 slam. Your voice can be heard - and I’m on board with almost everything that you’re doing. So thank you.
I just don’t agree on everything.
 
You guys are still missing the whole point.

It's not necessarily what is happening now in 2023, it's what will be happening in 2030 when those 100 yard bow shots and 500+ muzzleloader kills ARE the norm if we don't act now.

As technology emerges, so does availability and lower prices.

Snowball!
100 yard bow shots will never be the norm. 100 yards was far 30 years ago and still is today. 400 yards with a rifle was far 30 years ago, now that's a chip shot and most competent guys with a rifle are easily yes I said easily killing at 500+ yards. For a good majority 600-700 yards is a chip shot with the improved tech on a rifle, but yet we are restricting weapons that the effective kill range has not changed a whole lot over the last 20-30 years (archery). It just doesn't make sense Slam no matter how you twist it, paint it, explain it. The logic is not there.

I don't think anybody cares you killed foam or cardboard with your bow in an indoor shoot, good job, but that's not relevant to the conversation.
 
Hey @Bigwiffy

What do you think the average shot distance in Utah at big game was for each weapon (archery, muzzy, rifle) in the late 1990's and then do the same for 2022. I am talking all shots taken by hunters, total average. It's a wild a$$ guess but would be interesting to hear your guestimate.
 
100 yard bow shots will never be the norm. 100 yards was far 30 years ago and still is today. 400 yards with a rifle was far 30 years ago, now that's a chip shot and most competent guys with a rifle are easily yes I said easily killing at 500+ yards. For a good majority 600-700 yards is a chip shot with the improved tech on a rifle, but yet we are restricting weapons that the effective kill range has not changed a whole lot over the last 20-30 years (archery). It just doesn't make sense Slam no matter how you twist it, paint it, explain it. The logic is not there.

I don't think anybody cares you killed foam or cardboard with your bow in an indoor shoot, good job, but that's not relevant to the conversation.
I just want to point out that you are likely correct with (competent) but not entirely sure if the ranges you are taking about are chipshots. For a PRS competitor -Yes.
How many hunters can do this - I believe it’s very few -JMO

A not so recent “probably of hit” report was compiled using competent bench shooters from the military using the .308
It was found that from switching from bench to prone shooting -the competent shooters averaged a .8 mil (3 moa) shift in accuracy. That’s 9”@300 yards 15”@500 yards 24”@800 yards. How many bench guys miss at longe range ? I can tell you from my previous steel comp days -most.

How many of the top PRS shooters will tell you they can guarantee a 1st round hit at 1000 yards -guaranteed ?
The losers will all guarantee it - the guys on the podium will not - but have a really good chance of doing it.
Those that make long shots on big game over and over again are rare. Just like archers making 100 yard shots and muzzy guys making 500 yard shots.

Some think that having a new tech rifle guarantees hits - and that’s not true.
Accuracy at long range is exaggerated and misunderstood. New tech might just close those gaps.

You’re probably pretty good with your bow - but know your limits. New tech is not promoting that knowledge.

However - to back your statements - rifles are getting better by the minute. Better (tight) chambers -better actions, barrels, stocks, brass, powders, scopes, ballistic programs, and more.
Muzzleloaders and bows are also getting better. Bows it’s been slower - but it’s still easier to shoot a bow accurately with the newest equipment compared to 20 years ago. Everything is better.
The chip shot is getting longer - just not sure it’s as far as most believe. And the majority of hunters don’t have the skill level for long shots anyway. In the end - I don’t want anyone telling me what I can and can’t do with any of these weapons. Emerging tech -I’m ok with regulating it. Once you loose something -it’s really hard to get it back. Nothing sits well with me completely with the scope limits issue. I hopefully understand where you’re coming from? Frustration for many with the changes we have already implemented for 2023. The emerging tech committee has a lot on its plate for 2024.
 
100 yard bow shots will never be the norm. 100 yards was far 30 years ago and still is today. 400 yards with a rifle was far 30 years ago, now that's a chip shot and most competent guys with a rifle are easily yes I said easily killing at 500+ yards. For a good majority 600-700 yards is a chip shot with the improved tech on a rifle, but yet we are restricting weapons that the effective kill range has not changed a whole lot over the last 20-30 years (archery). It just doesn't make sense Slam no matter how you twist it, paint it, explain it. The logic is not there.

I don't think anybody cares you killed foam or cardboard with your bow in an indoor shoot, good job, but that's not relevant to the conversation.
? SMH....
 
Hey @Bigwiffy

What do you think the average shot distance in Utah at big game was for each weapon (archery, muzzy, rifle) in the late 1990's and then do the same for 2022. I am talking all shots taken by hunters, total average. It's a wild a$$ guess but would be interesting to hear your guestimate
This ought to be good.....
 
I just want to point out that you are likely correct with (competent) but not entirely sure if the ranges you are taking about are chipshots. For a PRS competitor -Yes.
How many hunters can do this - I believe it’s very few -JMO

A not so recent “probably of hit” report was compiled using competent bench shooters from the military using the .308
It was found that from switching from bench to prone shooting -the competent shooters averaged a .8 mil (3 moa) shift in accuracy. That’s 9”@300 yards 15”@500 yards 24”@800 yards. How many bench guys miss at longe range ? I can tell you from my previous steel comp days -most.

How many of the top PRS shooters will tell you they can guarantee a 1st round hit at 1000 yards -guaranteed ?
The losers will all guarantee it - the guys on the podium will not - but have a really good chance of doing it.
Those that make long shots on big game over and over again are rare. Just like archers making 100 yard shots and muzzy guys making 500 yard shots.

Some think that having a new tech rifle guarantees hits - and that’s not true.
Accuracy at long range is exaggerated and misunderstood. New tech might just close those gaps.

You’re probably pretty good with your bow - but know your limits. New tech is not promoting that knowledge.

However - to back your statements - rifles are getting better by the minute. Better (tight) chambers -better actions, barrels, stocks, brass, powders, scopes, ballistic programs, and more.
Muzzleloaders and bows are also getting better. Bows it’s been slower - but it’s still easier to shoot a bow accurately with the newest equipment compared to 20 years ago. Everything is better.
The chip shot is getting longer - just not sure it’s as far as most believe. And the majority of hunters don’t have the skill level for long shots anyway. In the end - I don’t want anyone telling me what I can and can’t do with any of these weapons. Emerging tech -I’m ok with regulating it. Once you loose something -it’s really hard to get it back. Nothing sits well with me completely with the scope limits issue. I hopefully understand where you’re coming from? Frustration for many with the changes we have already implemented for 2023. The emerging tech committee has a lot on its plate for 2024.
I agree with you for the most part. I will give you two first hand examples of a way less than average rifle shot killing deer with a very average rifle setup.

I've drawn one rifle deer tag in my life one was a unit 44 CO tag, and one was a WY region G tag. I decided to hunt G with a gun after archery hunting elk the week prior with my Dad. I have a Bushnell scope with reticles in it on a .270 Winchester. I zeroed it at 200 yards and my reticles were close at 300, 400, 500, 600. I don't even know what doping, turrets, smart app BS is let alone how to use any of that technology.

After shooting a few practice shots at the local gravel pit I felt fairly confident. In CO we glassed up a nice buck at 478 yards he had no idea I was even on the same planet as him. Got a dead rest and squoze one off....dead buck. Cool hunt over.

In WY we glassed up a good buck clear across a basin. I thought there was no way I could kill him from where I stood. Ranged him at 438 yards, again buck had no idea I even existed. He fed out broadside, I had a dead rest squoze one off and he went ass over tea kettle.... To Slams point I'm an amateur/novice rifle hunter. To tell me that these custom built long range rifles can't make a 500-700 yard shot a chip shot to a guy that spends any time behind one is a total farce. Youtube is littered with example after example. I have buddies that killed elk over 1000 yards and a deer close to the same...both with custom long range rifle setups. Hell that's how they market them that anybody can become a long range shooter. If a rifle slouch like me can kill two bucks at nearly 500 yards with a stock .270, you can't tell me guys that dedicate their time and money to rifle hunting aren't routinely killing at 500-700+ yards.

All I'm asking for is an explanation from Slam and the tech committee as to why they chose to start tech restrictions on the least effective weapon? Still waiting on an honest answer. So far all we've got is "rifles are harder to restrict" and "Burris Eliminator scopes are possibly being looked at" meanwhile archery guys had to fight tooth and nail to not be restricted back to recurves.....? sounds spot on Utah logic.
 
100 yard bow shots will never be the norm. 100 yards was far 30 years ago and still is today. 400 yards with a rifle was far 30 years ago, now that's a chip shot and most competent guys with a rifle are easily yes I said easily killing at 500+ yards. For a good majority 600-700 yards is a chip shot with the improved tech on a rifle, but yet we are restricting weapons that the effective kill range has not changed a whole lot over the last 20-30 years (archery). It just doesn't make sense Slam no matter how you twist it, paint it, explain it. The logic is not there.

I don't think anybody cares you killed foam or cardboard with your bow in an indoor shoot, good job, but that's not relevant to the conversation.
I am sorry but the majority I see can’t hit squat at 700 yards even with a turret it takes practice which is time and money which the majority don’t have.
I don’t want to change the scope on my muzzle but chip shots Cmon man
Our stick flippers are way better than you want to let on , yes I have one of them also.
100 is a chip shot if you practice
 
I am sorry but the majority I see can’t hit squat at 700 yards even with a turret it takes practice which is time and money which the majority don’t have.
I don’t want to change the scope on my muzzle but chip shots Cmon man
Our stick flippers are way better than you want to let on , yes I have one of them also.
100 is a chip shot if you practice
100 yards is no chip shot for most, yeah you can do it in the yard, but when it comes down to it on a shot at an animal 100 yards is no chip shot.

Same is true for shooting 700 with a rifle, yeah lots can do it at the range from a bench but real world shots at game are not chip shots. Same with a 400 yards with a modern "LR" muzzloader.
 
I agree with you for the most part. I will give you two first hand examples of a way less than average rifle shot killing deer with a very average rifle setup.

I've drawn one rifle deer tag in my life one was a unit 44 CO tag, and one was a WY region G tag. I decided to hunt G with a gun after archery hunting elk the week prior with my Dad. I have a Bushnell scope with reticles in it on a .270 Winchester. I zeroed it at 200 yards and my reticles were close at 300, 400, 500, 600. I don't even know what doping, turrets, smart app BS is let alone how to use any of that technology.

After shooting a few practice shots at the local gravel pit I felt fairly confident. In CO we glassed up a nice buck at 478 yards he had no idea I was even on the same planet as him. Got a dead rest and squoze one off....dead buck. Cool hunt over.

In WY we glassed up a good buck clear across a basin. I thought there was no way I could kill him from where I stood. Ranged him at 438 yards, again buck had no idea I even existed. He fed out broadside, I had a dead rest squoze one off and he went ass over tea kettle.... To Slams point I'm an amateur/novice rifle hunter. To tell me that these custom built long range rifles can't make a 500-700 yard shot a chip shot to a guy that spends any time behind one is a total farce. Youtube is littered with example after example. I have buddies that killed elk over 1000 yards and a deer close to the same...both with custom long range rifle setups. Hell that's how they market them that anybody can become a long range shooter. If a rifle slouch like me can kill two bucks at nearly 500 yards with a stock .270, you can't tell me guys that dedicate their time and money to rifle hunting aren't routinely killing at 500-700+ yards.

All I'm asking for is an explanation from Slam and the tech committee as to why they chose to start tech restrictions on the least effective weapon? Still waiting on an honest answer. So far all we've got is "rifles are harder to restrict" and "Burris Eliminator scopes are possibly being looked at" meanwhile archery guys had to fight tooth and nail to not be restricted back to recurves.....? sounds spot on Utah logic.
Your natural shooting skills sound like you should go professional!
Imagine what you could do with a $5k Gunworks if you can kill deer with 1 shot at 500 yards with a standard 270 sighted in at a gravel pit with no turrets.
I'm seriously impressed!!?
"Chipshot Wiffy" ?

I haven't missed a single technology meeting and I don't recall seeing you sitting in the back taking notes ?
So remind me when and where you archery guys had to fight tooth and nail to save compound bows?
I must have went to the restroom and missed that part.....my bad?‍♂️
That wasn't even ever brought to a vote, nice attemp at playing a martyr though?

And to answer you critical question that you're losing sleep over, and one that I've answered a half dozen times already.....
Rifles lost the same thing archery equipment did....."No Electronics" other than lighted sight pins and cross hairs, which also lands on the mid range weapon as well, the muzzleloader.

You still get your cams and silly slider needed to make a 50 yard shot, I get to keep my inline and at least a red dot 1x and LR rifle guys keep turrets, just as they have had use of since the invention of scopes.
These are the "RECOMENDATIONS" by the committee to the WB on weapon definitions.
Horrible huh???

I'm still amazed no one has asked about other tech being utilized NOT attached to a specific weapon other than hand held rangefinders.
 
Your natural shooting skills sound like you should go professional!
Imagine what you could do with a $5k Gunworks if you can kill deer with 1 shot at 500 yards with a standard 270 sighted in at a gravel pit with no turrets.
I'm seriously impressed!!?
"Chipshot Wiffy" ?

I haven't missed a single technology meeting and I don't recall seeing you sitting in the back taking notes ?
So remind me when and where you archery guys had to fight tooth and nail to save compound bows?
I must have went to the restroom and missed that part.....my bad?‍♂️
That wasn't even ever brought to a vote, nice attemp at playing a martyr though?

And to answer you critical question that you're losing sleep over, and one that I've answered a half dozen times already.....
Rifles lost the same thing archery equipment did....."No Electronics" other than lighted sight pins and cross hairs, which also lands on the mid range weapon as well, the muzzleloader.

You still get your cams and silly slider needed to make a 50 yard shot, I get to keep my inline and at least a red dot 1x and LR rifle guys keep turrets, just as they have had use of since the invention of scopes.
These are the "RECOMENDATIONS" by the committee to the WB on weapon definitions.
Horrible huh???

I'm still amazed no one has asked about other tech being utilized NOT attached to a specific weapon other than hand held rangefinders.
Thanks Slam. I wonder the same about you? 288 is a nice score? Why did you give up competitive shooting? Got too easy?
 
I am sorry but the majority I see can’t hit squat at 700 yards even with a turret it takes practice which is time and money which the majority don’t have.
I don’t want to change the scope on my muzzle but chip shots Cmon man
Our stick flippers are way better than you want to let on , yes I have one of them also.
100 is a chip shot if you practice
I’m in agreement with you.
Here’s some info to back it up.
Back when the long range game really got going “Best of the West” and “Gunwerks” showed the videos of balloons popping on big steel plates at 1000 yards. So if you hit the 60” steel plate anywhere -yes the balloon popped. The above sent shooters to long range events with the dial up turrets -they didn’t win anything. But maybe that has all changed now. The components the above makers had (and likely) are still great - and also the ammo for them. A shooter can attend a long range course and spend the big $$$ on a custom rig. And then maybe get lucky on an animal at long range. It’s called marketing. And so is this nonsense of someone watching a you tube video of a said long range kill. A good example is “12 year old kills bull elk at 1376 yards. This showcased the builders son shooting a bull elk at that distance. There was one big problem that no one picked up. Time of flight at ultramag speeds takes about 1.5 -1.7 seconds at that distance. In that video time of flight was .5 of a second. Hmmmm…..
I’m sure the BS helped sell more guns…..

Here’s a little unknown fact in the precision world of long range shooting - shooting at steel plates -prone. Roughly 1/2 of all the shots miss the target. This is from shooters that are really good and experienced.
Why ?
Competition brings errors. Stress, excitement, adrenaline, etc……

So what’s different for a hunter ? Does the above still apply ? If you’re going to tell me that an average hunter can perform above the level of the pros - now who’s blowing smoke ? Or even a seasoned hunter that has shot a lot - better than the pros ?

And then there’s an ammo and component shortage. To get good - lots of time needs to be put in. Without components to do this - Good Luck !

Attend a PRS event to learn the truth -not YouTube. You still won’t see the marketing boys in the winners circle. You will see shooters that build their own guns - and eat drink and sleep long range shooting and matches. And even they are struggling to get components - sponsored shooters.
 
Thanks Slam. I wonder the same about you? 288 is a nice score? Why did you give up competitive shooting? Got too easy?
Nope, nothing easy about it at all, especially back in the 90's as compared to what YOU have today.
I shot twice a day almost every day, morning before work, and evenings, I was completely obsessed.
I even had a little business making custom aluminum arrows. I would buy 100 dozen blank Easton shafts at a time and custom fletch and dip for customers....fun hobby, i loved it.

To answer your question with complete and full honesty?
I lost a 200" typical on the Henry's and I vomited for a week over it, still haunts me today even thinking about it.
No, this wasn't my first and only loss, it was my 9th lost animal with a bow, and it would be my last.

I often wish I would have kept shooting target archery for competition and sport, but when I put my PSE back in it's hardcadse, it became it's coffin.

I am however seriously contemplating taking up general season archery elk just so I can hunt elk every year.
I'll need new equipment though, my old Fireflight Express with 6" overdraw is quite outdated ?
 
Nope, nothing easy about it at all, especially back in the 90's as compared to what YOU have today.
I shot twice a day almost every day, morning before work, and evenings, I was completely obsessed.
I even had a little business making custom aluminum arrows. I would buy 100 dozen blank Easton shafts at a time and custom fletch and dip for customers....fun hobby, i loved it.

To answer your question with complete and full honesty?
I lost a 200" typical on the Henry's and I vomited for a week over it, still haunts me today even thinking about it.
No, this wasn't my first and only loss, it was my 9th lost animal with a bow, and it would be my last.

I often wish I would have kept shooting target archery for competition and sport, but when I put my PSE back in it's hardcadse, it became it's coffin.

I am however seriously contemplating taking up general season archery elk just so I can hunt elk every year.
I'll need new equipment though, my old Fireflight Express with 6" overdraw is quite outdated ?
Fireflight is still a decent bow. You've told your story before, but this is the first to my knowledge you've mentioned it was your 9th lost animal. I would suggest leaving your bow in its coffin and stick to your Lapua. I think you should keep your scope on it too, and your electronics. Probably better keep your muzzy scope, but please leave your bow where it lays. ?
 
Fireflight is still a decent bow. You've told your story before, but this is the first to my knowledge you've mentioned it was your 9th lost animal. I would suggest leaving your bow in its coffin and stick to your Lapua. I think you should keep your scope on it too, and your electronics. Probably better keep your muzzy scope, but please leave your bow where it lays. ?
That bow was awesome in it's day.
23" 2013 X7 arrows at 83 lbs draw and 318fps......Lazer beam.
Today's bows prolly hit that speed at 50 lbs ?
 
When We Start Managing Game For Healthy Game Herds,Somebody Let Me Know!

Won't Be Long & a 12" PISSCUTTER Will Be A Trophy While We're Spending Years Deciding If We're Gonna Take Scopes From SmokePoles!

Taking Scopes off of SmokePoles In Hopes Of Lowering Kill/Success Rates So More Tags Can Be Sold!

Some of The Poorest/PISS POOR Management I've Ever Heard Of!

Are We Not Already Over Hunting The Deer Herd Or Am I Missing Something Here?
 
JUDAS Hossy!

Break it Out & Hunt With It & Show Us How BAD-ASS You Really Are!

There Ain't A Law Saying You Can't Already Hunt With It!
But why would he?
I don't see anyone ripping off 12× scopes from their inlines just because they can?

That's the whole point of legal "restrictions", without them the sky is the limit.

Create the restrictions, implement the hunt and watch the demand for it explode.

I didn't see you at the Expo Bess, but I was all over the place working all the side events.
 
I would bet 90% of the scopes on in lines came as part of a kit/combo.

I didn't seek out a scope, it came with the gun I wanted. That was a manufacturer thing not a demand thing.

Santa brought my 12 yr old a CVA optima. It doesn't have a scope, because I'm hoping they ban them. But the same gun, was $25 more with a scope
 
But why would he?
I don't see anyone ripping off 12× scopes from their inlines just because they can?

That's the whole point of legal "restrictions", without them the sky is the limit.

Create the restrictions, implement the hunt and watch the demand for it explode.
Yeah the Hams hunt really proved that to be the case didn't it....? Nope they did away with several Hams hunts because the demand was so low.
 
Yeah the Hams hunt really proved that to be the case didn't it....? Nope they did away with several Hams hunts because the demand was so low.
Horrible opportunity units.

Open a HAMS on a decent hunt and I'll show you some point creeping problems
 
A
Actually I got that ticket from the envelope game not the hat game, and it was Thursday night. ? but it was a good time.
Ya you're right, I had my nights all intertwined.
Good to see you though, hope to see you in April at the UB banquet ?
 
I Looked For You PUNK!

Checked with MDF People Twice!

I Even Checked The SFW Booth To See If You Might Have A Chick over There!:D

I Knew You Were Busy Doing What You Do!

I Didn't Do The 25-30 Miles Worth of Hiking around in there Like I Usually Do!





But why would he?
I don't see anyone ripping off 12× scopes from their inlines just because they can?

That's the whole point of legal "restrictions", without them the sky is the limit.

Create the restrictions, implement the hunt and watch the demand for it explode.

I didn't see you at the Expo Bess, but I was all over the place working all the side events.
 
I Looked For You PUNK!

Checked with MDF People Twice!

I Even Checked The SFW Booth To See If You Might Have A Chick over There!:D

I Knew You Were Busy Doing What You Do!

I Didn't Do The 25-30 Miles Worth of Hiking around in there Like I Usually Do!
Lol.....nope, no chick's across the way, darnit.

All the Chick's must have been down having this "Chesser" dude at the HUSH booth signing autographs on their upper extremities ?

I don't have that good of game ?
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom