WY Residents...time to cut a deal?

The more in-depth this is looked at, the better status quo benefits everyone.

Wyo res have plenty of opportunity to fill their freezers as things currently stand. Wyo res enjoy hunting with both general deer and elk tags each year with extremely good draw odds for all but the highly limited d/e/a units.

The best outfitters have no problem securing clients every year with status quo. Outfitters could actually lose 1/2 their nonres client’s opportunity with 90/10 since 1/2 of nonres tags are pulled. 90/5/5 may appear good on the outside but not when looked at in closer detail. Outfitted nonres clients would actually be eliminated in the 40 different type 1 elk units I listed in my previous post with 90/5/5. Many units won’t even offer nonres random tags once tags are reduced and split up.

Nonres have poor draw odds and decent opportunity with status quo. 90/10 or 90/5/5 would cut each and every nonres opportunity in 1/2 or 1/4 while only providing a few additional tags to a few lucky res and barely improve res draw odds.

Status quo benefits the WG&F revenue for managing wildlife! More than anything else, the wildlife are the big winners with status quo. More revenue for improving wildlife habitat that ultimately increases the number of res and nonres tags!

With status quo WG&F license revenue would continue to increase or double if nonres fees were increased. With 90/10 or 90/5/5 license revenue would drop and pref pt revenue would dramatically decrease as nonres would drop out of the system. Your guess is as good as mine how this would affect the WG&F license and pref pt revenue budget 20 years from now?

Are Wyo residents really interested in picking up the slack from long-term budget losses by paying higher license fees with 90/10 or 90/5/5?

Wyo small business owners will also lose out on the economy boost by nonres traveling to Wyo for gas, groceries, restaurants, and convenient stores.

Anyway, there are lots and lots of benefits to status quo! Why change what doesn’t need fixed?
 
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Well there you gave it Buzz. You have Jims speaking for the Wyoming small business owners again. Is it spring yet?
 
Gator said:
83 elk in your lifetime that sounds like a resident has enough tags.
So now you want more of the tags.
Have you seen what kind of money the NR bring into the state by drawing a tag. Fuel,food,motel,Etc.
I guess Wyo can double the price of a resident tag that will help offseat that cost.
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No, we want a higher percentage of LQ tags, not more tags. I don't care how much money NR hunters bring into the state, we won't lose that money anyway. NR hunters snap up leftover tags and still bring their money. Plus the money NR hunters bring is miniscule compared to other outdoor recreation.

Wyoming is about to get a 6 million dollar fee increase passed for raising fees on NR hunters...I'm not concerned about GF funding or how to increase revenue if need be. Wyoming has a desirable product and NR hunters will pay whatever we decide to charge. Demand is far out stripping supply.
 
SS! said:
Well there you gave it Buzz. You have Jims speaking for the Wyoming small business owners again. Is it spring yet?
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The funny thing is Colorado is looking to take away NR opportunity with similar legislative action and Sebastian has done nothing to stop that. He doesn't care about those poor small local economies in Colorado and the NR hunters there.

He doesn't give a chit about small businesses here or in Colorado.
 
Buzz, I'm glad you bring up Colo! Colo is the most nonres DIY/OYO friendly state in the West! Colo currently offers unlimited OTC elk tags to nonres and 20 to 35% quotas for limited d/e/a. If Colo makes any nonres cuts they will likely be similar to what Wyo status quo is!

Buzz, I've actually posted the same comments in Colo threads. Colo small town business owners are the main reason Colo remains the most nonres friendly state in the Western US. Years ago when Colo wanted to limit nonres hunters the small town business owners joined forces and shot the legislation down!

If I was a small town business owner in Wyo I would be livid with the thought that 1/2 of the limited tags and nonres hunter revenue would suddenly disappear!

Whether you agree or not, small town business revenue impacts are significant and don't change when you cross the border to Wyo!
 
Residents should get to hunt elk every year, and they can with general licenses.
We hunt them for food not just antlers so whatever the small or dink comments are just to flame your own ego.
We take tons of cows, small bulls, and big bulls. More than 1 most years, for the meat.
Comments about the size of animals taken really also shows your little man syndrome heateater.

Maybe it's time to contact our commissioners about where they donate licenses.

I guess we'll also find out who is all talk after bonus points get passed, lawsuits should get filed right and left, lol.
 

In “Economic Contributions of Big Game Hunting in Wyoming,” a study conducted by Southwick Associates—one of the nation’s leading outdoor research and economics firms—just how important big game hunting is to the state’s economy becomes clear. Using surveys of Wyoming’s licensed resident and nonresident big game hunters, combined with economic models specific to Wyoming’s economy, economic insights were generated for all big game hunters combined, along with breakouts for residents, guided nonresidents and unguided nonresident big game hunters.

Reducing the number of nonresident tags could exponentially negatively impact tax revenues, sales revenues and jobs in the state. Here’s a look at why by the numbers:

The typical resident hunter who responded to the survey hunted nearly 13 days for big game in 2015. The typical nonresident hunter spent 9 days total in Wyoming, only hunted 5.1 of those days, but spent nearly three times more in-state.

With only 37 percent of hunters being nonresidents and accounting for only 39 percent of all big game hunting retail sales (many will buy gear and equipment in their home state prior to arriving in Wyoming), they still generate 41 percent of the total activity, 51 percent of the jobs and 52 percent of tax receipts generated by big game hunting.

Nonresidents accounted for 63 percent of all travel dollars spent by the state’s big game hunters. These are dollars spent on lodging, food (both restaurants and grocery stores), gas stations, guides and outfitters and other companies supporting hunters’ travel needs.

Including equipment, nonresidents spend 39 percent of all dollars associated with big game hunting in Wyoming, and 85 percent of all big game guide and outfitter fees.

FINAL TAKE
Big game hunting in Wyoming is more than a hobby or casual pastime. It is big business that results in the expenditure of $224 million annually. The revenues generated transcend hunt-centric business and benefit all state residents through funds spent on lodging, food, gas, other travel-related expenses, retail goods and services, land access and state and local taxes. Decisions that affect the allocation of future permits and licenses must carefully consider how big game hunting’s far-reaching economic benefits are created to ensure optimal economic benefit for all Wyoming residents.

For a state like Wyoming, rural in nature and short on big industry, hunting is big industry and the numbers above testify to this fact. It is critical to all residents for hunting to generate as much money as possible for the state. This is an important distinction to make to stakeholders involved in or benefitting from Wyoming’s hunting future.
 
This goes hand-in-hand with small business revenue.

IMG_1780.jpg
 
Jims you just dodge everything buzzh is talking about colorado going 90/10 for high demand tags what are you currently doing about that?
 
jims said:
Buzz, I'm glad you bring up Colo! Colo is the most nonres DIY/OYO friendly state in the West! Colo currently offers unlimited OTC elk tags to nonres and 20 to 35% quotas for limited d/e/a. If Colo makes any nonres cuts they will likely be similar to what Wyo status quo is!

Buzz, I've actually posted the same comments in Colo threads. Colo small town business owners are the main reason Colo remains the most nonres friendly state in the Western US. Years ago when Colo wanted to limit nonres hunters the small town business owners joined forces and shot the legislation down!

If I was a small town business owner in Wyo I would be livid with the thought that 1/2 of the limited tags and nonres hunter revenue would suddenly disappear!

Whether you agree or not, small town business revenue impacts are significant and don't change when you cross the border to Wyo!
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Not true and NR with leftover tags in their pockets still spend the same amount of money here.

There is no question snowmobilers spend wayyyyyyy more money in Laramie than hunters. Every hotel in Laramie has trailer loads of sleds parked out front. Unlike tight ass NR hunters, these guys buy lots of fuel, stay at the hotels, and running up a few hundred dollar dinner/ bar tab is the norm...every night.

Hunting here is a blip in comparison.
 
wytex said:
Residents should get to hunt elk every year, and they can with general licenses.
We hunt them for food not just antlers so whatever the small or dink comments are just to flame your own ego.
We take tons of cows, small bulls, and big bulls. More than 1 most years, for the meat.
Comments about the size of animals taken really also shows your little man syndrome heateater.

Maybe it's time to contact our commissioners about where they donate licenses.

I guess we'll also find out who is all talk after bonus points get passed, lawsuits should get filed right and left, lol.
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I support changing to bonus points as well as outfitter set asides. It’s hilarious to me that Buzz thinks that getting a larger percentage of limited entry tags will suddenly cure his irresistible urge to smash raghorns. Sorry my comments hit a sore spot for you Wytex they were directed at buzz.
 
Bookhead said:
Jims you just dodge everything buzzh is talking about colorado going 90/10 for high demand tags what are you currently doing about that?
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In Colorado? Absolutely nothing, he's supporting cutting NR tags as he always has. He posts all the time about how elk should be draw only in Colorado and NRs limited. He's a hypocrite...
 
jims said:
Buzz, I've actually posted the same comments in Colo threads. Colo small town business owners are the main reason Colo remains the most nonres friendly state in the Western US. Years ago when Colo wanted to limit nonres hunters the small town business owners joined forces and shot the legislation down!
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You posted some comments on MM and you think you did something? What about testifying against it at the state level? How many CO reps did you contact about small businesses and NR being harmed in Colorado? That's a rhetorical question. However, you sure contacted the WY TF, WY state reps, and whined about it on MM. You're a self-serving, hypocritical blowhard.
 
Crampy said:
Straight 10% NR allocation (all species) from WY would be MORE generous than the western folks in Oregon & California et.al. 10% NR allocation is “generally” the mountain-west standard.

But what is NOT fair is for WY to hold out 20-25% NR allocation and the “preference” point model for 28 years to LURE in $50 million in moose/sheep PP fees for the state of Wyoming. And then unilaterally change the deal to 10% and BP-squared and NOT offer a refund to the moose/sheep folks that relied on the implied duty of good faith that attaches to every bargain made. NRs reasonably relied on those terms when making $438/year payments to this m/s Ponzi (less in years prior to 2019).

This $50M problem is unprecedented in scale and exudes bad faith
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Colorado yanked everyone's sheep points and reset everyone to zero once upon a time.... They do what ever they please, points are not sold guaranteeing anyone a tag, just a chance of increasing your drawing odds, just like lottery tickets... and you don't see anyone getting a refund because they didn't win...
 
jm77 said:
This needed said, but it's BS what it took to get it out.

What do you or any other NR think it takes for a resident to stand up and oppose something that really doesn't affect them? I'll definitely think twice before I do it again. You guys see these jackwagons posting on here and stand idly by until Buzz, myself or another resident tells it like it's going to be from now on.

90/10 EDA is going to happen, when I don't have a clue. The push for it by residents increases every year and eventually those we elect will have to listen. Don't think Buzz is kidding about Sy either. We both keep more in contact with him than ever before. He's a resident too, with kids and grandkids hunting like myself. We may not agree on everything, but many things we do. We always use: residents here deserve 90/10 because most other states do it. He uses: outfitters deserve set-asides because many other states have them. Go figure.
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Not sure if I'm one of the jackwagons or not, but I find it humorous how quickly the tone went apologetic and some people shut up. I know my thoughts were "whoa". I have been putting in for hunts ever since I moved to northern Colorado, just across from Cheyenne. I've put in for random hunts in deer, elk, and antelope for 9 years and never drew one. I did draw a 7 cow type 6. My boy drew a really good tag in the random this last year in his 3rd year. Go figure. I'll apply regardless as long as I can afford it. I wish we here in Colorado had 90/10. Instead we have 20 percent landowner, up to 35 percent nonresident, and a puny 55 percent resident.
 
jims said:

In “Economic Contributions of Big Game Hunting in Wyoming,” a study conducted by Southwick Associates—one of the nation’s leading outdoor research and economics firms—just how important big game hunting is to the state’s economy becomes clear. Using surveys of Wyoming’s licensed resident and nonresident big game hunters, combined with economic models specific to Wyoming’s economy, economic insights were generated for all big game hunters combined, along with breakouts for residents, guided nonresidents and unguided nonresident big game hunters.

Reducing the number of nonresident tags could exponentially negatively impact tax revenues, sales revenues and jobs in the state. Here’s a look at why by the numbers:

The typical resident hunter who responded to the survey hunted nearly 13 days for big game in 2015. The typical nonresident hunter spent 9 days total in Wyoming, only hunted 5.1 of those days, but spent nearly three times more in-state.

With only 37 percent of hunters being nonresidents and accounting for only 39 percent of all big game hunting retail sales (many will buy gear and equipment in their home state prior to arriving in Wyoming), they still generate 41 percent of the total activity, 51 percent of the jobs and 52 percent of tax receipts generated by big game hunting.

Nonresidents accounted for 63 percent of all travel dollars spent by the state’s big game hunters. These are dollars spent on lodging, food (both restaurants and grocery stores), gas stations, guides and outfitters and other companies supporting hunters’ travel needs.

Including equipment, nonresidents spend 39 percent of all dollars associated with big game hunting in Wyoming, and 85 percent of all big game guide and outfitter fees.

FINAL TAKE
Big game hunting in Wyoming is more than a hobby or casual pastime. It is big business that results in the expenditure of $224 million annually. The revenues generated transcend hunt-centric business and benefit all state residents through funds spent on lodging, food, gas, other travel-related expenses, retail goods and services, land access and state and local taxes. Decisions that affect the allocation of future permits and licenses must carefully consider how big game hunting’s far-reaching economic benefits are created to ensure optimal economic benefit for all Wyoming residents.

For a state like Wyoming, rural in nature and short on big industry, hunting is big industry and the numbers above testify to this fact. It is critical to all residents for hunting to generate as much money as possible for the state. This is an important distinction to make to stakeholders involved in or benefitting from Wyoming’s hunting future.
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Please let that be your final take. Please. Go back to Colorado and smoke your cheatgrass.
 
Crampy said:
Straight 10% NR allocation (all species) from WY would be MORE generous than the western folks in Oregon & California et.al. 10% NR allocation is “generally” the mountain-west standard.

But what is NOT fair is for WY to hold out 20-25% NR allocation and the “preference” point model for 28 years to LURE in $50 million in moose/sheep PP fees for the state of Wyoming. And then unilaterally change the deal to 10% and BP-squared and NOT offer a refund to the moose/sheep folks that relied on the implied duty of good faith that attaches to every bargain made. NRs reasonably relied on those terms when making $438/year payments to this m/s Ponzi (less in years prior to 2019).

This $50M problem is unprecedented in scale and exudes bad faith
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Jesus Christ we’re back on the refunds again.
Stop……just stop!
You bought preference points. If you did not understand that Wyoming could change the game at any moment. You are beyond help. You are not getting a refund from anyone. For the love of God just stop with it
 
jims said:
Here's a little eye-opener and reality check for what will happen to limited quota units for nonres and outfitters with 90/10 and 90/5/5. I thought it would be interesting to put together a list to give an idea of how few tags are currently issued to nonres.

Units that offered zero nonresident special type 1 draw elk tags in the random draw in 2022 (without 90/10 or 90/5/5):

22, 31, 32, 53, 54, 56, 58, 59, 84, 88, 106, 111, 118, and 124

Units that offered only 1 special draw elk tag to nonres in the random draw in 2022:

1, 6, 19, 24, 30, 51, 55, 78, 91, 108, 116

Units that offered only 2 special type 1 draw elk tags to nonres in the random draw in 20022:

8, 11, 16, 23, 25, 35, 47, 62, 63, 93, 100, 120, 122

Now, lets compile a list of units that would offer nonres 0 tags in the draw if nonres quotas are cut in 1/2 with 90/10:

22, 31, 32, 53, 54, 56, 58, 59, 84, 88, 106, 111, 118,124, 1, 6, 19, 24, 30, 51, 55, 78, 91, 108, 116

Now lets put together a list of units that would offer 0 nonresident tags to outfitters plus nonres in the special draw random pool with 90/5/5:

22, 31, 32, 53, 54, 56, 58, 59, 84, 88, 106, 111, 118,124, 1, 6, 19, 24, 30, 51, 55, 78, 91, 108, 116, 8, 11, 16, 23, 25, 35, 47, 62, 63, 93, 100, 120, 122

If you have been applying for any of these units and don't have close to max pts you likely won't draw these tags in your lifetime with 90/10 or 90/5/5. Why pay for high pref pt fees if you have 0 chance to draw?
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Maybe I’m way off base, but wouldn't we just pick up more of the general licenses?
 
Deercy said:
Not sure if I'm one of the jackwagons or not, but I find it humorous how quickly the tone went apologetic and some people shut up. I know my thoughts were "whoa". I have been putting in for hunts ever since I moved to northern Colorado, just across from Cheyenne. I've put in for random hunts in deer, elk, and antelope for 9 years and never drew one. I did draw a 7 cow type 6. My boy drew a really good tag in the random this last year in his 3rd year. Go figure. I'll apply regardless as long as I can afford it. I wish we here in Colorado had 90/10. Instead we have 20 percent landowner, up to 35 percent nonresident, and a puny 55 percent resident.
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Sebastian will be pulling for the Residents in Colorado while kicking small businesses there in the chops, right along with NR Colorado hunters.
 
BuzzH said:
The funny thing is Colorado is looking to take away NR opportunity with similar legislative action and Sebastian has done nothing to stop that. He doesn't care about those poor small local economies in Colorado and the NR hunters there.

He doesn't give a chit about small businesses here or in Colorado.
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I'll believe it when I see it. Sorry that I am so pessimistic. Updating our system to reflect today's data isn't taking away nonresident tags in my opinion. 75/25 is actually 55/25/10/10. By working all methods I still end up with plenty of tags. Fight for it while you can. Once a system is in place it doesn't look like it will change very easily. My dream is to hunt a limited pressure area. I've combat hunted my entire life. It's a rare hunt I've had where it isn't a race to get to an animal. Except my boys antelope this year.
 
Deercy said:
I'll believe it when I see it. Sorry that I am so pessimistic. Updating our system to reflect today's data isn't taking away nonresident tags in my opinion. 75/25 is actually 55/25/10/10. By working all methods I still end up with plenty of tags. Fight for it while you can. Once a system is in place it doesn't look like it will change very easily. My dream is to hunt a limited pressure area. I've combat hunted my entire life. It's a rare hunt I've had where it isn't a race to get to an animal. Except my boys antelope this year.
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I would fully support Colorado looking out for Residents first, you live there, work there, are more involved there...you deserve more tags.

When I hunt Colorado I'm a tourist that wrote a check for a bit more expensive tag. Big deal, that's easy.

You don't owe NR's anything, they can hunt their own states.
 
BuzzH said:
In Colorado? Absolutely nothing, he's supporting cutting NR tags as he always has. He posts all the time about how elk should be draw only in Colorado and NRs limited. He's a hypocrite...
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That is not true at all, most non-residents say the same thing on OTC tags, it is not sustainable.

Man the times have changed around here. Should we pull up the old threads and comments to see how much people change in 5 years?
 
Glockster said:
Maybe I’m way off base, but wouldn't we just pick up more of the general licenses?
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As of now, that is correct. If 7250 is voted out it is possible nonresidents lose some... or potentially gain some. 90/10 for DEA would simply lower nonresident tags in the LQ areas. As a non-resident, it makes sense to me for Wyoming to go that route. It seems crazy but I have drawn one particular LQ area 3 times that a few of my resident buddies have only drawn once. For many of the sought after areas, residents actually have worse draw odds.
 
nripepi said:
That is not true at all, most non-residents say the same thing on OTC tags, it is not sustainable.

Man the times have changed around here. Should we pull up the old threads and comments to see how much people change in 5 years?
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Then don't hunt Colorado if it's not sustainable. If you don't like how Wyoming does things, don't hunt here either.

All you care about is a sheep tag, if it's that important to you, go buy a hunt and move on.

Or put in like everyone else and hope to get lucky. You aren't owed anything...get over it.
 
These threads are so funny. Residents want more tags. NR claim they should have tags cause we spend so much money in the state. Opinions will never change on either side. Hunting is still as good as I ever remember but opportunities definitely have diminished. I can remember paying a $250 trespass fee to hunt elk on a ranch in CO.
 
I think the 1st start is adjusting the Special Fee. It was designed to give better odds at getting tags. I am not sure I would ever pay the special fee but maybe but the point of it was to increase odds. I am not sure I would double the price over night but it was to be increased to insure better odds. By raising the price at some point it will get back to the way it was designed. Maybe its $1500, $2000, $2500 at some point people will be priced out of the special and the odds will settle back to the intention. Yes this will decrease odds in the regular as people jump out the special but that's the point.

As far as going to 90/10 as a NR I am against it for the simple reason I want more tags for me and my family and love hunting. My instate options are not great and the memories from family hunting trips can't be beat. Now I understand why residents want more tags and I don't hold that against them. I would honestly want 100%. I would not be happy year after year watching NRs take animals while my family who lives in the state don't have the chance. I don't care if it was one tag I would my family to have a chance. So whatever Wyoming gives NR I am grateful. I hope they never change it.

I am sure at some point they will decrease NR tags just don't give them to the outfitters. Why in the world would a state like Wyoming agree to welfare, heck if anything go to 95/5 but don't give tags to outfitters you are just turning this into a rich mans game and that has never been the point of hunting. I can handle not getting tags because of crappy odds just don't make it about not wanting to pay an outfitter.

If and when they move to 90/10 I do believe that the most fair why to do it would be a grace period for people to burn their points. If its voted on its should have a 3-5 year period before going into affect. Let everyone figure out the best they can where to burn their points.
 
This sure gets old reading all the bickering between residents and non residents. Does it really matter that much where a person lives? This is getting ridiculous. I've hunted Wyoming every year since 2014, and I loved how friendly all the people in Wyoming have been. Reading the comments on here from some Wyoming residents I'm having second thoughts about my feelings that Wyoming people are the friendliest people of anywhere I've ever been. So far my trips to Wyoming have only been for doe antelope, whitetail does, and cow elk. This will be my first year hunting for a mule deer buck, and possibly an antelope buck, if I draw. Just want to use up my 7 points and be done with it.
 
BuzzH said:
Not true and NR with leftover tags in their pockets still spend the same amount of money here.

There is no question snowmobilers spend wayyyyyyy more money in Laramie than hunters. Every hotel in Laramie has trailer loads of sleds parked out front. Unlike tight ass NR hunters, these guys buy lots of fuel, stay at the hotels, and running up a few hundred dollar dinner/ bar tab is the norm...every night.

Hunting here is a blip in comparison.
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You expect them to pop up a pup tent in the middle of the winter?
 
Bob D. said:
This sure gets old reading all the bickering between residents and non residents. Does it really matter that much where a person lives? This is getting ridiculous. I've hunted Wyoming every year since 2014, and I loved how friendly all the people in Wyoming have been. Reading the comments on here from some Wyoming residents I'm having second thoughts about my feelings that Wyoming people are the friendliest people of anywhere I've ever been. So far my trips to Wyoming have only been for doe antelope, whitetail does, and cow elk. This will be my first year hunting for a mule deer buck, and possibly an antelope buck, if I draw. Just want to use up my 7 points and be done with it.
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Bob D. said:
This sure gets old reading all the bickering between residents and non residents. Does it really matter that much where a person lives? This is getting ridiculous. I've hunted Wyoming every year since 2014, and I loved how friendly all the people in Wyoming have been. Reading the comments on here from some Wyoming residents I'm having second thoughts about my feelings that Wyoming people are the friendliest people of anywhere I've ever been. So far my trips to Wyoming have only been for doe antelope, whitetail does, and cow elk. This will be my first year hunting for a mule deer buck, and possibly an antelope buck, if I draw. Just want to use up my 7 points and be done with it.
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So typical...and predictable.
 
I ran a couple quick numbers on all units with draw odds under 10%. The units I ran with draw odds higher than 10% saw about the same growth by percentage (I didn't run numbers on all of them for times sake). I'm assuming the following are the tags residents would most like to get their hands on. Here's what residents would gain by partnering with big money...

Unit / Draw Odds at current vs (90/10 or 90/5/5)

100: 3.05% vs 3.59% (added 26 tags for 4448 apps)
22: 6.90% vs 7.2% (added 2 tags for 652 apps)
30: 5.93% vs 6.63% (added 4 tags for 573 apps)
31: 4.49% vs 4.42% (lost one tag based on .9 and rounding up)
32: 6.40% vs 6.73% (added 2 tags for 609 apps)
56: 5.12% vs 5.76% (added 1 tag for 156 apps)
58: 9.91% vs 11.2% (added 3 tags for 232 apps)
59: 7.07% vs 7.96% (added 1 tag for 113 apps)
124: 3.58% vs 3.91% (added 3 tags for 920 apps)

I guess this is to say what does a resident gain by partnering partnering with the outfitters?

Buzz I get your frustrations and have followed threads outlining your and others involvement in advocating against the set aside. It isn't lost on me, and it is appreciated. I think I speak for the majority when I say that.

I'll sincerely pose this question... How can we as NR partner with residents in making this a win win for both residents and non residents alike? Residents blaming non residents for being the reason they can't draw some of the most sought after tags is a fallacy (as outlined above). 90/10 is a pimple on pigs ass!

90/5/5 is the important fight. The deep pockets have done a hell of a job pitting all the avg joes against each other. They are throwing out peanuts while attempting to usher millions in the back door.

We need to align our efforts and make sure the outfitter set aside doesn't happen, by proportion serves the least amount of people, and from what I can tell doesn't help the resident anymore than the 90/10.
 
Jgill19 said:
I ran a couple quick numbers on all units with draw odds under 10%. The units I ran with draw odds higher than 10% saw about the same growth by percentage (I didn't run numbers on all of them for times sake). I'm assuming the following are the tags residents would most like to get their hands on. Here's what residents would gain by partnering with big money...

Unit / Draw Odds at current vs (90/10 or 90/5/5)

100: 3.05% vs 3.59% (added 26 tags for 4448 apps)
22: 6.90% vs 7.2% (added 2 tags for 652 apps)
30: 5.93% vs 6.63% (added 4 tags for 573 apps)
31: 4.49% vs 4.42% (lost one tag based on .9 and rounding up)
32: 6.40% vs 6.73% (added 2 tags for 609 apps)
56: 5.12% vs 5.76% (added 1 tag for 156 apps)
58: 9.91% vs 11.2% (added 3 tags for 232 apps)
59: 7.07% vs 7.96% (added 1 tag for 113 apps)
124: 3.58% vs 3.91% (added 3 tags for 920 apps)

I guess this is to say what does a resident gain by partnering partnering with the outfitters?

Buzz I get your frustrations and have followed threads outlining your and others involvement in advocating against the set aside. It isn't lost on me, and it is appreciated. I think I speak for the majority when I say that.

I'll sincerely pose this question... How can we as NR partner with residents in making this a win win for both residents and non residents alike? Residents blaming non residents for being the reason they can't draw some of the most sought after tags is a fallacy (as outlined above). 90/10 is a pimple on pigs ass!

90/5/5 is the important fight. The deep pockets have done a hell of a job pitting all the avg joes against each other. They are throwing out peanuts while attempting to usher millions in the back door.

We need to align our efforts and make sure the outfitter set aside doesn't happen, by proportion serves the least amount of people, and from what I can tell doesn't help the resident anymore than the 90/10.
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It's not all about 10% or less areas in the last 10 years 9.of those years I've applied for areas with 23-30% draw odds haven't had a tag for 10 years for LQ any elk
 
Bookhead stats are a fickle mistress...

Your odds in those units (I ran four of five of them in that range) would be around 25-32% at best. Shoot me the units you apply for and I'll run them... Haha just teasing I coudln't help myself.

That's piss poor luck, and I hope you're due for a heater. I see what you kill without LQ tags, I think I'd enjoy a hunt story of yours in an LQ unit.

Again I'm not personally in favor of 90/10 becuase I want those extra tags same as the residents. If to partner with you guys not to get in bed with the outfitters, I'd live with it.
 
Jgill19 said:
Bookhead stats are a fickle mistress...

Your odds in those units (I ran four of five of them in that range) would be around 25-32% at best. Shoot me the units you apply for and I'll run them... Haha just teasing I coudln't help myself.

That's piss poor luck, and I hope you're due for a heater. I see what you kill without LQ tags, I think I'd enjoy a hunt story of yours in an LQ unit.

Again I'm not personally in favor of 90/10 becuase I want those extra tags same as the residents. If to partner with you guys not to get in bed with the outfitters, I'd live with it.
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I only want 1 so any tags that go in the quota is better for me and other residents in the same boat
 
Jgill19 said:
Bookhead stats are a fickle mistress...

Your odds in those units (I ran four of five of them in that range) would be around 25-32% at best. Shoot me the units you apply for and I'll run them... Haha just teasing I coudln't help myself.

That's piss poor luck, and I hope you're due for a heater. I see what you kill without LQ tags, I think I'd enjoy a hunt story of yours in an LQ unit.

Again I'm not personally in favor of 90/10 becuase I want those extra tags same as the residents. If to partner with you guys not to get in bed with the outfitters, I'd live with it.
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It's not meaningless or a pimple on a pigs ass to about 2k more residents that would get to hunt elk in LQ units each year.

That's what we want...more resident hunters getting LQ tags for deer, elk, and pronghorn...it's not insignificant and it's not unreasonable.

If I saw a single state even attempting to get bigger allocations for NR hunters I might be more sympathetic...until then, residents here deserve equal treatment. I'll stay the course until they do.
 
Who’s doing the whining and crying that you guys desperately complain about so much? It’s easy to point fingers until it’s pointed back at you isn’t it?
 
jims said:
Who’s doing the whining and crying that you guys desperately complain about so much? It’s easy to point fingers until it’s pointed back at you isn’t it?
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I'm not crying, I'm going to push 90-10 until it passes...the first domino fell, moose, sheep, goat, bison, and grizzly.

Its easier after that.

Continued declines in pronghorn and deer will accelerate it, so there can be something good that comes out of the lower populations.
 
Here is what will happen one way or another…

1. 90/10 is going to happen.
2. Bonus Points going to happen.
3. More NR will Actually apply even with lower odds because with the bonus points they have chance
4. WY will not go to any points system for resident on DEA we like the random…
5. NR will continue to whine and complain and we really won’t care.
 
1). 90/10 has no way of happening unless there is some sort of outfitter compromise. Outfitters across Wyo will go out of business when there are no nonres tags available for their clients with 90/5/5.

2). Wyo res will continue to complain that they can’t draw high demand tags because their draw odds basically gets worse every year as nonres hunters flock and move to Wyo in response to the exclusive rights of Wyo residents and the ability to shed hunt 2 weeks prior to nonres.

3) Wyo res will pay higher fees to account for significant revenue losses when nonres quit buying pts in response to all limited tags taking a lifetime to draw.

4). Small town business owners that don’t live near ski resorts will wonder where all their business went during hunting seasons and will sign up for food stamps.

5) Wyo res will continue to claim they love the random draw system but constantly complain about their neighbor down the street that drew 3 tags in the random draw while they sat on the couch.

6). Wealthy nonres will buy up every square inch of checker-board property in the Red Desert so they can purchase exclusive landowner tags each and every year before the draw.

7). A wall will be built around every Wyo wilderness area to prevent nonres from stepping foot inside these borders.

8) Kids that grow up in the midwest and southern states will start savings accounts so they can afford to go on 1 Wyoming elk hunt in their lifetime.

Should I continue on Buzz?
 
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jims said:
1). 90/10 has no way of happening unless there is some sort of outfitter compromise. Outfitters across Wyo will go out of business when there are no nonres tags available for their clients with 90/5/5.

2). Wyo res will continue to complain that they can’t draw high demand tags because their draw odds basically gets worse every year as nonres hunters flock and move to Wyo in response to the exclusive rights of Wyo residents and the ability to shed hunt 2 weeks prior to nonres.

3) Wyo res will pay higher fees to account for significant revenue losses when nonres quit buying pts in response to all limited tags taking a lifetime to draw.

4). Small town business owners that don’t live near ski resorts will wonder where all their business went during hunting seasons and will sign up for food stamps.

5) Wyo res will continue to claim they love the random draw system but constantly complain about their neighbor down the street that drew 3 tags in the random draw while they sat on the couch.

6). Wealthy nonres will buy up every square inch of checker-board property in the Red Desert so they can purchase exclusive landowner tags each and every year before the draw.

7). A wall will be built around every Wyo wilderness area to prevent nonres from stepping foot inside these borders.

Should I continue on Buzz?
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No, that's enough fairy tales for you to scribe in a single day.

Businesses signing up for food stamps, that's really special.

I'll have the last laugh, just like I did with 90-10 for moose, sheep, goat, bison. Hopeful that new change will treat me well for Bison and my 3rd Wyoming moose tag. Goat won't change that much, not enough tags, but I'll still apply.
 
And what's your point most people now have to save up to go on one Alaskan moose hunt in their lifetime...
 
BuzzH said:
Everything you said...heard it all before. Including moving to Wyoming.
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Okay, cool, well I retire in 12 months and there's no place my wife and I would rather move to than Wyoming. Thanks in advance for the warm welcome I know you'll be giving me. ?
 
jims said:
1). 90/10 has no way of happening unless there is some sort of outfitter compromise. Outfitters across Wyo will go out of business when there are no nonres tags available for their clients with 90/5/5.

2). Wyo res will continue to complain that they can’t draw high demand tags because their draw odds basically gets worse every year as nonres hunters flock and move to Wyo in response to the exclusive rights of Wyo residents and the ability to shed hunt 2 weeks prior to nonres.

3) Wyo res will pay higher fees to account for significant revenue losses when nonres quit buying pts in response to all limited tags taking a lifetime to draw.

4). Small town business owners that don’t live near ski resorts will wonder where all their business went during hunting seasons and will sign up for food stamps.

5) Wyo res will continue to claim they love the random draw system but constantly complain about their neighbor down the street that drew 3 tags in the random draw while they sat on the couch.

6). Wealthy nonres will buy up every square inch of checker-board property in the Red Desert so they can purchase exclusive landowner tags each and every year before the draw.

7). A wall will be built around every Wyo wilderness area to prevent nonres from stepping foot inside these borders.

8) Kids that grow up in the midwest and southern states will start savings accounts so they can afford to go on 1 Wyoming elk hunt in their lifetime.

Should I continue on Buzz?
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You aren't doing nonresidents any favors...

1) WYOGA likes to act like they have a lot of pull but the reality is they are not a powerful organization in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately the residents of Wyoming will decide where this goes. I know some still feel 80/20 is fine but more and more are getting on board with 90/10.

1b) I don't see 90/5/5 ever happening because I don't know a single resident that will support it. That said, you are a fool to think the outfitters wouldn't accept that in a heartbeat.

2) Nonresidents will never flock to Wyoming. There is a reason the population has stayed low this long and the average person will not move for hunting. It is damn hard to make a living there for most and the climate sucks. 90/10 won't change that.

3) You are out of your mind if you think there is going to be a huge revenue shortfall. BP and a chance to draw will keep people buying. The current number of people in the less than 10PP pool should give you a clue.

4) Any business outside of outfitters relying on hunting alone isn't going to be in business any length of time anyways.

5) That may be but it is their choice to make.

6) I just bought a bunch in anticipation. Let me know when you have a buyer lined up.

7) Residents hired the beetles to do this years ago - where have you been?

8) Sounds like good parenting.
 
Old Buzz sounds like he is in charge of the whole state.LOL
I'm guessing those small towns business can go belly up it wouldn't effect old Buzz since he don't own a business in a small country town. I hope those that think the world will be better off with more tags then jobs tell your family and friends that you help them lose those jobs. Maybe the Govt will give more welfare money instead of jobs.
 
elks96 said:
Here is what will happen one way or another…

1. 90/10 is going to happen.
2. Bonus Points going to happen.
3. More NR will Actually apply even with lower odds because with the bonus points they have chance
4. WY will not go to any points system for resident on DEA we like the random…
5. NR will continue to whine and complain and we really won’t care.
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If Wyoming doesn’t like points for residents, then why push points on non residents? How about you drop it to 90-10 and make it a lottery state….
 
jims said:
I added #8 since I know you have nonres family that enjoy hunting Wyo as nonres.
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Yeah, they live in Montana and kill plenty of big-game there...and all have drawn a bunch of tags here too.

The sweetest deal is I get to hunt up there with an OTC NR General elk and deer tag that's priced at half of what a normal NR would pay.

That's a win-win and they support all states going 90-10 across the board, they'd be hypocrite like you if they didn't...Montana is a 90-10 state as well.
 
Also, NR’s keep getting screwed in the deer general areas every few years. Specifically g and h, we get tags slashed every time there’s a harsh winter though they remain unlimited for residents. Those tags never come back. NR’s in those units are a drop in a bucket when we’re talking pressure. If you look at the low success rates, how many bucks are saved, 25-50 over an entire region.

It’ll be up for debate again this year, wouldn’t be surprised if NR general tags get cut again.
 
It's silly for NRs to insist X, Y or Z from Wyoming. It's their state, they will do as they wish, and all the complaining in the world is just that.

Hopefully, the state feels that they've made enough changes in the last couple years and that further changes are too much, too soon. The influencers may push for it, but hopefully there isn't a grassroots demand for change in D/E/A allocations. If it happens, that'll suck for us NRs for sure.

As for all the "financial" and "economic" impacts? Well, 100,000 hunters vote- and that's a huge number in the state. The small pockets of pain that might be felt will not change how the state keeps its residents happy.

I can certainly understand residents wanting more tags available for quality hunts. Let's hope it isn't a hot issue for the time being.
 
ss13 said:
Also, NR’s keep getting screwed in the deer general areas every few years. Specifically g and h, we get tags slashed every time there’s a harsh winter though they remain unlimited for residents. Those tags never come back. NR’s in those units are a drop in a bucket when we’re talking pressure. If you look at the low success rates, how many bucks are saved, 25-50 over an entire region.

It’ll be up for debate again this year, wouldn’t be surprised if NR general tags get cut again.
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Before a single Resident has to be limited in G and H, there should be ZERO Non Resident tags issued.

If cuts need to be made it should absolutely be NR's that are cut first.
 
BuzzH said:
Before a single Resident has to be limited in G and H, there should be ZERO Non Resident tags issued.

If cuts need to be made it should absolutely be NR's that are cut first.
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I agree with that. Residents should get 100% of the tags, if that's what Wyoming chooses to do, and if they can get by without all the non resident money.
I do want to clear one thing up though. Previously Buzz you stated that Washington is 90/10. We're not. There's absolutely no limit on how many non residents can purchase over the counter deer and elk tags. The special draw tags, there is no maximum percentage that can go to non residents. Even moose, bighorn sheep, and mountain goat tags have no non residents limitations. Draw odds are the same for all, only difference is non residents pay ten times as much.
 
As I've said all along, Colo is a nonres hunter's paradise with OTC elk and archery antelope tags plus 20 to 35% of limited d/e/a tags. I'm actually proud that Colo offers nonres such great opportunity.

Yep, I could draw more tags with 90/10 or even 80/20 but I have never tried to change that. The only thing I have ever tried changing is away from OTC to all limited for elk....equally for both res and nonres. I was all in favor of converting to all limited for Colo deer. Colo rewrote the B&C record books a few years after this happened.

Colorado is aware of how important nonresidents are to their wildlife management, revenue, and local economies! I don't even waste my time talking about 90-10 in Colo because I'm that confident it won't happen. I really believe it's great that nonres across the country can hunt elk and other big game that aren't present in their home states.

If you think about it Colo and Wyo are about the only 2 Western states left where nonres DIY/OYO hunters have great opportunity. It's a pretty sad to see those opportunities slip away. I can pretty much guarantee Colo will follow suit with nonres opportunity cuts if Wyo goes forward with 90/10 or 90/5/5.....pretty sad!

Yep, Buzz can complain all he wants but Wyo nonresidents have done a lot to support Wyoming wildlife! I'm certainly thankful to Wyoming that they have offered my friends and family so many great memories.
 
jims said:
As I've said all along, Colo is a nonres hunter's paradise with OTC elk and archery antelope tags plus 20 to 35% of limited d/e/a tags. I'm actually proud that Colo offers nonres such great opportunity.

Yep, I could draw more tags with 90/10 or even 80/20 but I have never tried to change that. The only thing I have ever tried changing is away from OTC to all limited for elk....equally for both res and nonres. I was all in favor of converting to all limited for Colo deer. Colo rewrote the B&C record books a few years after this happened.

Colorado is aware of how important nonresidents are to their wildlife management, revenue, and local economies! I don't even waste my time talking about 90-10 in Colo because I'm that confident it won't happen. I really believe it's great that nonres across the country can hunt elk and other big game that aren't present in their home states.

If you think about it Colo and Wyo are about the only 2 Western states left where nonres DIY/OYO hunters have great opportunity. It's a pretty sad to see those opportunities slip away. I can pretty much guarantee Colo will follow suit with nonres opportunity cuts if Wyo goes forward with 90/10 or 90/5/5.....pretty sad!

Yep, Buzz can complain all he wants but Wyo nonresidents have done a lot to support Wyoming wildlife! I'm certainly thankful to Wyoming that they have offered my friends and family so many great memories.
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You're doing nothing to stop it Sebastian, that's the same as supporting Colorado limiting NR hunters.

Simple as that, hypocrite...

Oh, and I hope Colorado does go 90-10, their residents shouldn't have to face being invaded by heaps of NR's every year. What a joke.
 
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BuzzH said:
It's not meaningless or a pimple on a pigs ass to about 2k more residents that would get to hunt elk in LQ units each year.

That's what we want...more resident hunters getting LQ tags for deer, elk, and pronghorn...it's not insignificant and it's not unreasonable.

If I saw a single state even attempting to get bigger allocations for NR hunters I might be more sympathetic...until then, residents here deserve equal treatment. I'll stay the course until they do.
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If you want the 90/10 get after it. I don't think most are even gonna fight you, or even think it's unfair. I agree it will happen eventually and am finewith it. Years after that itll be even more, because there will still be unhappy resident hunters. When the allotment can no longer be cut, then they/we will blame WGFD for mismanagement of game pop. It's just the path, unfortunately.

90/10 isn't what you titled this thread though. This was about cutting a deal with the outfitters. It is 100% selfish in motive if to get it you have to sell out the DIY NR to the outfitter. Which is fine if that's the MO (I like to think it's not), just own it if it is.

I'd love to see you and all the residents in WY tell the outfitters and Sy to kiss your red ass, and still get the 90/10 passed w/o set asides. Unfortunately without the big money on board you can't get it done (yet), and you can't get them on board without the set aside. Our only hope as NR hunters is that enough residents understand the bullshit these outfitters are trying to shove down every one's throats, and are willing to take a stand against it (so far WY residents have). Even if it means giving up a 2% better chance at drawing a tag. To those who are standing against it, cheers!! Beer's on me if we ever cross paths. Even you Buzz, at least until you start voting to cut our cinch! lol

Speaking of beer, it's Friday I'll see you boys later!!
 
HikeHunt61 said:
It's silly for NRs to insist X, Y or Z from Wyoming. It's their state, they will do as they wish, and all the complaining in the world is just that.
...
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Absolutely, WY can have 90/5/5 if they want it. And even layer on their proposed 3 day exclusive resident shed season & longstanding wilderness exclusivity.

But what WY can’t do – is engage in a 28 year bait & switch scheme and not at least offer refunds. WY held out 20-25% NR allocation on moose/sheep and “preference points” to lure NRs to engage in their Ponzi. And now WY has changed to 10% NR m/s allocation and squared BPs for m/s. That is a material change that requires a refund offer. Some of the $50M moose/sheep money they collected needs to be put back in to the correct pockets.

Some of the mathematically challenged guys with up to $5000+ invested will keep going. But the more astute will take their money back and spend it on something with more inherent value (e.g. crypto or blow).

And after the refunds are done, WY can then reprice m/s “bonus” points back to what they’re actually worth in the new BP-squared scheme, about $7…
 
Crampy said:
But what WY can’t do – is engage in a 28 year bait & switch scheme
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Crampy- I'm kinda with Buzz on this one. Any change sucks for some and is good for others. If you really, really feel you need to get all legal about it, that's your right. Although I sympathize, I kinda doubt it will come to anything.
 
How much time was wasted at task force meetings battling over tags?

What I find sad is that we all obviously share the same passion for hunting, wildlife, and the outdoors. It actually wouldn’t take a whole lot of work to improve wildlife habitat, water sources, highway fencing projects, disease and predator control, etc that would put more game on the mountain. This in turn would offer more tags and opportunity for both res and nonres.

Everyone is happy in years with lots of fawns, calves, lambs, and kids. What do we need to do to improve that?

As a prime example, if tag fees do increase for nonres it would be great if that money goes directly to wildlife improvement projects that make a difference!

Instead of battling each other over a handful of tags/unit we should be figuring out strategies to put more game in the hills!
 
jims said:
How much time was wasted at task force meetings battling over tags?

What I find sad is that we all obviously share the same passion for hunting, wildlife, and the outdoors. It actually wouldn’t take a whole lot of work to improve wildlife habitat, water sources, highway fencing projects, disease and predator control, etc that would put more game on the mountain. This in turn would offer more tags and opportunity for both res and nonres.

Everyone is happy in years with lots of fawns, calves, lambs, and kids. What do we need to do to improve that?

As a prime example, if tag fees do increase for nonres it would be great if that money goes directly to wildlife improvement projects that make a difference!

Instead of battling each other over a handful of tags/unit we should be figuring out strategies to put more game in the hills!
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Blah, blah, blah....we already do all those things.

Are you suggesting we double license fees on non residents so we can have more money to do the things you mention? Would be nice if NR contributed more. Residents support the NGO efforts, do nearly all the volunteer work via thousands of hours of time.

This is a great idea Sebastian, I think another NR fee increase is in order. More money spent, more animals on the hill, more tags, easier to pass 90-10!

With more animals and more tags AND a fee increase on NRs 10% should be more than adequate. The residents that do all the work will draw more tags!

Win-win-win...all those smiling faces across the board. You're a genius.
 
I like the way it is now....of course. But if it goes 90/10 which it most likely should to make it comparable to surrounding states, outfitters do not need or should benefit from it.

Wyoming has treated me good with some great tags so no complaints from me.

I have a few family members who need to draw their elk tags so if possible wait on the 90/10 until then?
 
No Buzz, what I'm saying is if nonres fees do in fact increase demand that most of this additional revenue is put in place to directly improve wildlife habitat rather than constructing new fancy WG&F office buildings and lost $ that filters through bureaucratic doors and isn't used directly on wildlife.

There will obviously be revenue loss for every nonres tag converted to resident tag. Don't you think it would be better use of this $ to continue status quo and use that revenue for improving habitat and increasing herd numbers which in turn increases tag numbers?

In all reality, status quo would be a win-win for both residents and nonres if the additional revenue is spent on wildlife rather than revenue loss from converting to 90/10 resident tags. It's pretty easy to visualize that Wyo resident tag numbers will increase if this additional revenue is spent directly for wildlife improvements that promote more critters!
 
Bob D. said:
Okay, cool, well I retire in 12 months and there's no place my wife and I would rather move to than Wyoming. Thanks in advance for the warm welcome I know you'll be giving me. ?
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You'll be more than welcome here as a resident 1 year after you move here. Perhaps you'll also starts seeing the resident side of things too.
Hope you picked a nice town to live in with good health care, that seems to be a deal maker for some.
 
ss13 said:
Also, NR’s keep getting screwed in the deer general areas every few years. Specifically g and h, we get tags slashed every time there’s a harsh winter though they remain unlimited for residents. Those tags never come back. NR’s in those units are a drop in a bucket when we’re talking pressure. If you look at the low success rates, how many bucks are saved, 25-50 over an entire region.

It’ll be up for debate again this year, wouldn’t be surprised if NR general tags get cut again.
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If you have hunted the greys river, you have seen all of the nonresident vehicles at the trailheads. Nonresident pressure is way more than a drop in the bucket. It won't hurt the herd at all if nonresident tags get slashed again. ? It will save a lot of bucks and there will be less pressure.
Many residents don't even take a buck unless they see one that really gets them excited. There is not an accurate count of how many residents hunt each area or region, so don't waste your time posting any guesses... The surveys to this point are just that, an estimate/guess.
 
wytex said:
You'll be more than welcome here as a resident 1 year after you move here. Perhaps you'll also starts seeing the resident side of things too.
Hope you picked a nice town to live in with good health care, that seems to be a deal maker for some.
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I do see the resident side of things for sure. But I also don't understand some of the hate I see on this forum for people who like to hunt in Wyoming but don't live there. As I've already said, I think it should go to 90/10 if that's what residents of the state want. Moose and sheep, I believe should be 100% residents only.

We do have a very nice town picked out and health care isn't a major concern. I'm healthy and not that old, unless 55 is old. ? I do know for any serious health care issues it could be an hour and a half drive.
 
BuzzH said:
Then don't hunt Colorado if it's not sustainable. If you don't like how Wyoming does things, don't hunt here either.

All you care about is a sheep tag, if it's that important to you, go buy a hunt and move on.

Or put in like everyone else and hope to get lucky. You aren't owed anything...get over it.
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I completely understand 90/10 and residents fighting for more tags and that outfitters are against a larger allocation for residents as it hurts their business big time.

Coming together for 90-5-5 is pretty comical, especially considering all of your previous comments on not supporting outfitter welfare and supporting non-residents. I would definitely lose respect for you all if you go down that route and get in bed with outfitters.

I totally respect you all fighting for 90/10 though, why wouldn't you. Think back to all of the hunts you and your family enjoyed as non-residents in different states and now erase 75% of those memories from your mind, that is what 90-5-5 would do to DIY-NR. I care way more about taking my kids on an elk or mule deer or antelope hunt then I do in shooting a sheep myself. You can have my sheep tag, just send me my preference point money back so I can afford to hire a guide in Wyoming :)
 
How many times do I have to say it, stop taking the bait . Buzz and his gang just want to stir he chit and giving them what they want accomplishes nothing.

The outfitter are not dumb enough to think 5% of the tags is going to exceed the percentage of clients they're currently getting from the 20% . so it's ignorant to think they're going to jump on the idea anyway.

Once again we have proof the NR only had one friend and it's the outfitters. sure it's a self serving friendship, but no more so than guys like Buzz and his agenda is just as selfish and does us zero good.

I'm out of here this dead horse has been beat down flat.
 
Togwotee said:
How many times do I have to say it, stop taking the bait . Buzz and his gang just want to stir he chit and giving them what they want accomplishes nothing.

The outfitter are not dumb enough to think 5% of the tags is going to exceed the percentage of clients they're currently getting from the 20% . so it's ignorant to think they're going to jump on the idea anyway.

Once again we have proof the NR only had one friend and it's the outfitters. sure it's a self serving friendship, but no more so than guys like Buzz and his agenda is just as selfish and does us zero good.

I'm out of here this dead horse has been beat down flat.
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Sy offered exactly that at the task force...5% outfitter set aside for 90-5-5.

You should reach out and have him explain it to you, or you could watch the recorded task force meeting.
 
Togwotee said:
How many times do I have to say it, stop taking the bait . Buzz and his gang just want to stir he chit and giving them what they want accomplishes nothing.

The outfitter are not dumb enough to think 5% of the tags is going to exceed the percentage of clients they're currently getting from the 20% . so it's ignorant to think they're going to jump on the idea anyway.

Once again we have proof the NR only had one friend and it's the outfitters. sure it's a self serving friendship, but no more so than guys like Buzz and his agenda is just as selfish and does us zero good.

I'm out of here this dead horse has been beat down flat.
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Outfitters are NR friends what a joke... U can thank the outfitters for the wilderness rule the first special tag and U can thank them for this price increase coming soon.... Sy and his gang will keep running the train on NR until they get 90/5/5.
 
90/5/5 would absolutely decimate DIY NR elk hunters. Basically a 2/3 cut in NR elk licenses for those of us who view hunting as a self-reliant sport, and probably a bit more. Outfitters would certainly gain, as there would be reason to go that route instead of DIY for those more desperate to go.

It'll be what it'll be- we'll see if and when it happens. It's obvious now what side people are on. Hoping it's too much too soon...
 
BuzzH said:
For the whining Residents on MM, is it about time to approach the outfitting lobby and cut a deal for 90-5-5 for pronghorn, deer, and elk(90 percent resident, 5% outfitter draw, and 5% DIY)?

I think its time...sick of listening to the high pitched NR screeching about anything that is favorable for Residents.

Won't be hard to do, Sy is just waiting for the phone call and green light. Many Residents are sick of the NR entitlement.

All it needs is a nudge from a few of the Resident hunters to get this thing done.

Thoughts?
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I just don’t think you can get it done anytime soon. Maybe 10 or 15 years out, but I’m calling your bluff for now.

It’s confusing to hear you now wanting outfitter tags, when a short time ago you were so against them. Maybe it’s just tough talk to try and get some NR’s thanking you for something. I don’t know.

You can do what you want, but I won’t be losing any sleep over it.

Outfitters seem content with current tag allotments, which is better for NR’s than 90/10 or 90/5/5. Outfitters need NR more than you want them, so I’m still rooting for them and maintaining status quo rather than your 90/10 or 90/5/5.

I’ll be impressed if you can make it happen in the next couple years. I’ll be watching and when it happens, I’ll say, “interesting. Buzz might have accomplished his goal”.
I’ll even dig this old thread up and let you rub in all the whining faces you speak of. :)
 
Founder said:
I just don’t think you can get it done anytime soon. Maybe 10 or 15 years out, but I’m calling your bluff for now.

It’s confusing to hear you now wanting outfitter tags, when a short time ago you were so against them. Maybe it’s just tough talk to try and get some NR’s thanking you for something. I don’t know.

You can do what you want, but I won’t be losing any sleep over it.

Outfitters seem content with current tag allotments, which is better for NR’s than 90/10 or 90/5/5. Outfitters need NR more than you want them, so I’m still rooting for them and maintaining status quo rather than your 90/10 or 90/5/5.

I’ll be impressed if you can make it happen in the next couple years. I’ll be watching and when it happens, I’ll say, “interesting. Buzz might have accomplished his goal”.
I’ll even dig this old thread up and let you rub in all the whining faces you speak of. :)
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Sy would jump for joy if there were a 5% outfitter set aside, it was his idea at the task force.

It makes sense, it would totally secure their business in LQ areas for deer, elk and pronghorn...would not impact their business in NR region deer tags, general elk tags, etc.

Show me where the downside is for outfitters with a 5% set aside....I'll save you from looking, there isn't one.

You need to look where they outfit, how many outfitted hunts they do, and for what species....a vast majority are general elk, region deer, and easy to draw pronghorn tags. Not many rely on LQ tags, and those that do would benefit greatly from a 5% allocation.

Sy is a lot of things, but he's not dumb...

Oh, and Brian, I heard the same thing about 90-10 for the big-5, heard the same thing about moving the NR elk draw out of January, the Governors tags wont ever leave Wyoming Wildlife Foundation, and a host of other things "I/We couldn't get done".

Yeah...how's that working out?
 
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BuzzH said:
Sy would jump for joy if there were a 5% outfitter set aside, it was his idea at the task force.

It makes sense, it would totally secure their business in LQ areas for deer, elk and pronghorn...would not impact their business in NR region deer tags, general elk tags, etc.

Show me where the downside is for outfitters with a 5% set aside....I'll save you from looking, there isn't one.

You need to look where they outfit, how many outfitted hunts they do, and for what species....a vast majority are general elk, region deer, and easy to draw pronghorn tags. Not many rely on LQ tags, and those that do would benefit greatly from a 5% allocation.

Sy is a lot of things, but he's not dumb...

Oh, and Brian, I heard the same thing about 90-10 for the big-5, heard the same thing about moving the NR elk draw out of January, the Governors tags wont ever leave Wyoming Wildlife Foundation, and a host of other things "I/We couldn't get done".

Yeah...how's that working out?
Click to expand...
Simple math. Under an 80/20, if an outfitter books 50% of NR in that unit, he's got 10 hunters. Under a 90/10, he'd have 5 hunters. Under a 90/5/5, he'd have guaranteed 5, plus up to maybe 50% of the other 5, that's a 7.5 average. So you have 10 vs 7.5 vs 5. 80/20 is still best option.

I believe 90/5/5 is only an option for outfitters if some form of 90/10 is inevitable, which isn't the case yet. When it is, then I think outfitters will try to get that 5% set aside, until then I think the 80/20 makes most sense to them.

Unlike the big 5, residents aren't as prone to hire outfitters for deer, elk and antelope. With the big 5, even residents are quite likely to hire outfitters because most are probably once-in-a-lifetime tags, so that wasn't a big hit to outfitters.

I also think residents hate the idea of 5% set aside tags for outfiters. Why you want it, I don't know, but I believe most are set against it enough that 90/5/5 isn't too likely. 90/10 is far more likely, but with that, outfitters get half the hunters and that's a big hit to their income and would eliminate nearly half of guide jobs in the state, among other collateral damage. So for now, I think 80/20 is most likely where it'll be for some time.

Again, you have at it, but I'm not thinking you can do it anytime soon. I dare you to call Sy today and get it done. I'm thinking he's not interested. ;)

If he says it's a go, I won't doubt your threats towards whining NR's anymore. Please let us know how it goes.
 
Founder said:
Simple math. Under an 80/20, if an outfitter books 50% of NR in that unit, he's got 10 hunters. Under a 90/10, he'd have 5 hunters. Under a 90/5/5, he'd have guaranteed 5, plus up to maybe 50% of the other 5, that's a 7.5 average. So you have 10 vs 7.5 vs 5. 80/20 is still best option.

I believe 90/5/5 is only an option for outfitters if some form of 90/10 is inevitable, which isn't the case yet. When it is, then I think outfitters will try to get that 5% set aside, until then I think the 80/20 makes most sense to them.

Unlike the big 5, residents aren't as prone to hire outfitters for deer, elk and antelope. With the big 5, even residents are quite likely to hire outfitters because most are probably once-in-a-lifetime tags, so that wasn't a big hit to outfitters.

I also think residents hate the idea of 5% set aside tags for outfiters. Why you want it, I don't know, but I believe most are set against it enough that 90/5/5 isn't too likely. 90/10 is far more likely, but with that, outfitters get half the hunters and that's a big hit to their income and would eliminate nearly half of guide jobs in the state, among other collateral damage. So for now, I think 80/20 is most likely where it'll be for some time.

Again, you have at it, but I'm not thinking you can do it anytime soon. I dare you to call Sy today and get it done. I'm thinking he's not interested. ;)

If he says it's a go, I won't doubt your threats towards whining NR's anymore. Please let us know how it goes.
Click to expand...
You can back and look at the recorded meetings, he throws it right out there under the grand compromise.

I've talked to Sy more in the last year than I ever have, if you want his number send me a PM and he'll explain it to you.

5% of the tags would be a huge windfall to the outfitters for the reasons I've already pointed out. Not going to repeat it, just go back and read it again...slowly this time.
 
lostinOregon said:
Buzz did the 90/10 big three all by himself. You are amazing for not being on the committee or in the legislature. Simply amazing. If you patted yourself on the back any harder you would break your arm.
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What is the big 3?

Did you mean the big 5? No, that wasn't just me, actually it was @jm77 that started that push and got the ball rolling.

But, pretty much him and I pushed it enough to finally get it across the goal line.

You can continue to downplay the significance of a few dedicated people and what they can accomplish...but I don't because I've seen it and done it my entire life.

The critics like you are a given, I'm going to keep getting things done via help from a handful of dedicated people like @mulecreek, @jm77, @grosventrehunter and some others.

You can stay in the stands...
 
BuzzH said:
You can back and look at the recorded meetings, he throws it right out there under the grand compromise.

I've talked to Sy more in the last year than I ever have, if you want his number send me a PM and he'll explain it to you.

5% of the tags would be a huge windfall to the outfitters for the reasons I've already pointed out. Not going to repeat it, just go back and read it again...slowly this time.
Click to expand...
I don’t need to go back and read anything, neither fast or slow. This is your threat to NR’s and I’m just saying I think it’s an empty threat. You’ll have to deal with me having an opinion that differs from yours. Just prove me wrong by calling him up today and settling a deal.

I don’t think you can, that’s my opinion and I honestly don’t think NR’s should believe it’s on the table right now. 80/20 is best for outfitters, NR’s, residents, and doesn’t give outfitters the set asides you’re wanting to shell out.

I can’t believe you’re wanting outfitters to have set aside tags! I thought most DIYer’s agreed that outfitters should have to earn their business like everyone else. To each their own though. Your opinion.
 
The difference in the folks you mentioned is that they are not constantly patting themselves on the back and bragging, posting things that you know will get folks upset. Then you enjoy talking down to folks. Anyone can see that. It’s not the issue of WY doing their own thing, it’s the, “I do it cause of all of the whining NR’s”. You do it because it makes you feel important. I’m on the sidelines because it is a WY issue to figure out.
 
Founder said:
I can’t believe you’re wanting outfitters to have set aside tags! I thought most DIYer’s agreed that outfitters should have to earn their business like everyone else.
Click to expand...
I'm guessing it's more about a deal, rather than a want. If you're pushing 90% resident tags and can gain an ally by forcing 50% of the remaining 10% to outfitters, you'll take it, however distasteful.

The end justifies the means...
 
Founder said:
I don’t need to go back and read anything, neither fast or slow. This is your threat to NR’s and I’m just saying I think it’s an empty threat. You’ll have to deal with me having an opinion that differs from yours. Just prove me wrong by calling him up today and settling a deal.

I don’t think you can, that’s my opinion and I honestly don’t think NR’s should believe it’s on the table right now. 80/20 is best for outfitters, NR’s, residents, and doesn’t give outfitters the set asides you’re wanting to shell out.

I can’t believe you’re wanting outfitters to have set aside tags! I thought most DIYer’s agreed that outfitters should have to earn their business like everyone else. To each their own though. Your opinion.
Click to expand...
Feel free to deny what Sy offered, the facts are what they are and its there for the world to see.

For Christ sake, he flew in Outfitters from 4-5 states to push the 5% set aside at the task force meeting.

You're right, I guess Sy just wasn't serious...

Was 90-10 for the big 5 an empty threat Brian? Many thought so....WRONG.
 
lostinOregon said:
The difference in the folks you mentioned is that they are not constantly patting themselves on the back and bragging, posting things that you know will get folks upset. Then you enjoy talking down to folks. Anyone can see that. It’s not the issue of WY doing their own thing, it’s the, “I do it cause of all of the whining NR’s”. You do it because it makes you feel important. I’m on the sidelines because it is a WY issue to figure out.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think so.

I just don't sugar coat the facts about what's going on in Wyoming.

Residents want 90% of the LQ tags, and they'll get it, one way or another.
 
BuzzH said:
For Christ sake, he flew in Outfitters from 4-5 states to push the 5% set aside at the task force meeting.
Click to expand...
I think Resident's deserve 90/10 in Wyoming...but this outfitter welfare plague needs to be stopped everywhere it can. These guys are thick as thieves, and I despise their commercialization of wildlife across the west. Made me want to throw up when I saw that presentation from all these different states outfitters at the TF.

But here's an idea I'd like to see get pushed...lets raise the price of NR Reg tags by ~25%, take this extra revenue and dole it out to the outfitters each year. My rough concept would be that WGFD collects this ~25% extra revenue, sends it to the state department that handles public assistance/food stamps etc. and then outfitters fill out forms requesting a portion of this public assistance/welfare...based on whatever system they would use to dole out limited quota tags.

To maintain transparency in government, WGFD posts the names and amount received for all outfitters who apply and receive this public assistance money on their home page.

Outfitters want public welfare (albeit in the form of tags), so if policy makers see this as a legitimate request...lets cut the bs and just give them cash. Surely they can stand in the same line as the single mother of 3 trying to get food stamps? It would be a real shame if the non-hunting public sneered a bit if they see them roll in driving a $75k truck...
 
BuzzH said:
Feel free to deny what Sy offered, the facts are what they are and its there for the world to see.

For Christ sake, he flew in Outfitters from 4-5 states to push the 5% set aside at the task force meeting.

You're right, I guess Sy just wasn't serious...

Was 90-10 for the big 5 an empty threat Brian? Many thought so....WRONG.
Click to expand...
Don’t know what to tell you, I’m just saying I’m not worried about your threat at all, and I really don’t think anyone should be.

You began the thread as a threat to all NR’s to behave as you request or you’ll show us. I’m saying, show us! And I don’t think you can, at least no time real soon.

You might be willing to shell out outfitter set asides, but I don’t believe Wyoming sportsmen want to do that at all, nor do politicians, or G&F. I don’t even think outfitters “want” to go there, but will need to if 90/10 is inevitable.

Status quo isn’t bad for residents, or outfitters or NR’s. Outfitter set aside tags are the wrong direction.

But the ball is in your court, I’ll be watching with interest, but with great doubt you can back up your threat this thread is based on.
 
Founder said:
Don’t know what to tell you, I’m just saying I’m not worried about your threat at all, and I really don’t think anyone should be.

You began the thread as a threat to all NR’s to behave as you request or you’ll show us. I’m saying, show us! And I don’t think you can, at least no time real soon.

You might be willing to shell out outfitter set asides, but I don’t believe Wyoming sportsmen want to do that at all, nor do politicians, or G&F. I don’t even think outfitters “want” to go there, but will need to if 90/10 is inevitable.

Status quo isn’t bad for residents, or outfitters or NR’s. Outfitter set aside tags are the wrong direction.

But the ball is in your court, I’ll be watching with interest, but with great doubt you can back up your threat this thread is based on.
Click to expand...
You aren't telling me anything I haven't heard a thousand times or am not forced to guess about.

I think it would make sense for you to realize who is in legislative leadership positions right now, who was on the task force and what was said. I can say with 100% certainty there has never been a time more ripe for a 5% set aside for outfitters in exchange for 90% resident allocation.

I can also say, legislation like this is all about timing, and Sy knows that too.

Tough to find or imagine a time that was/is more favorable.

This tougher winter will make the timing even better with lower pronghorn and deer numbers.

Residents are fed up with NR entitlement attitudes toward Wyoming's wildlife...they want change and they'll get it is my opinion.

Just like with 90-10 for the big 5, time and pressure...and the pressure is rising.
 
BuzzH are your lips moving if so you might be a lawyer.
You was against outfitters couple years back now you think they walk on walk.
 
Buzz claims........."Residents want 90% of the LQ tags, and they'll get it, one way or another."

Did the Wyo nonres wilderness deal get passed in favor of outfitters this same way? Everyone agrees that the Wyo nonres guide in wilderness deal is a bunch of bull!

Now it's time for outfitter set aside tags that will cut nonres DIY/OYO hunter opportunity in 1/2 while improving outfitter welfare? The number of tags available for outfitter clients with status quo is pretty darn good and 90/5/5 does squat.

Buzz, you are really sliding in your old age! So much for being an OYO hunter advocate. Have you added up the total number of Wyoming big game tags you've held over the past 10 years? I can pretty much guarantee you have held more big game tags in your hands than anyone else in any surrounding state! Wondering minds really want to know if Wyo res opportunity is really that bad with status quo?

Status quo is looking better and better each day we discuss it!
 
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I believe it we want 90/10 or even 90/05/05 it would be pretty easy to accomplish if residents that complain would show up and speak, everywhere you go it’s the same story residents complaining to many nonres but to the meetings I can make it to I never see any of them, seems like always the same few, I I’ll admit I don’t get to as many meetings as I should but I’ve never thought to many nonresidents until tags started getting cut and they pull some of that in a area with let’s say 8 moose or bighorn tags and they make it 6 res 2 nonres , personally I think should be no nonres tags in those units with small quotas!!
 
Ohhh and I do feel to many nonresidents in there area I hunt in H, the trailheads are ridiculous for deer opener, so I would like to see the wilderness law fade away maybe spread some out but I’m not to optimistic on that one !!
 

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