A silver lining to big bad winters...

JakeSwensen · Mar 2, 2023

We are all aware that winters with deep snow and prolonged cold temperatures are hard on mule deer populations. I'm talking mountain mule deer here. During the 2010/2011 winter in western Wyoming, I believe fawn survival was below 10% but I also remember some really big bucks were killed in the fall of 2011(Magnum in Wyoming for example). I also remember hearing that the collard does were very fat coming into the winter of 2011/12. That winter was fairly mild if I remember correctly. I saw many does with twins or triplets in the fall of 2012. I think fawn survival was over 70% in 2011/2012 winter in western Wyoming. Does deep snow equal improved vegetation on summer and winter range going into the next year?
What have you other hunters seen over the years?
I'm hoping some of the bucks that survive this winter will grow their best set of antlers this year.

Deepcolor · Mar 2, 2023

Robby Denning has a podcast about this subject. He ages all the bucks he kills and has some pretty good data about big bucks coming out of or surviving as a fawn in those super tough winters.

nfh · Mar 2, 2023

A wet Spring doesnt equal bigger antlers.

I have shot my most massive elk and deer in drought years.

A good wet spring animals go crazy eating that fresh grass so quick they seem not to get the nutrients.

Bookhead · Mar 2, 2023

So here's the reason I don't buy the bs about more moisture equaling bigger bucks or healthier deer. For one the deer live in the places in the mtn that have feed every year no matter what the moisture is. for 2 I never saw so many deer there wasn't enough feed for them all and for 3 some of the biggest bucks and bulls in the country live in the driest parts of the nation.

elks96 · Mar 2, 2023

No it does not. The harshest winters don’t always end up having the best moisture. There are years when the snow is deep, crusted, and the temps are super low and the moisture content is in the snow is poor. I
Also feel a lot has to do with how the thaw occurs. A slow warmup over time allowing the ground to thaw with the snow is way different than a quick thaw with the water leaving the country faster than how it arrived via raging rivers etc.

Moisture timed at the right point in the year is far more important. The idea of the green belt/band of best feed is important and how that band of the most nutritious forage moves up in elevation as do the deer. Really heavy snow in the mountains can delay this and the deer arrive before it happens, etc. I can’t recall the researcher who had done work on this issue…

Lastly as other have said the most arid places can produce the biggest antlers, look at Colorado Unit 2 for example. Definitely not an alpine high country paradise… unit 100, unit 124, unit 22, etc.

In the end better to have the moisture now then not at all, but I feel the spring storms, summer flow, monsoon etc. are as if not more important…

mulecreek · Mar 2, 2023

My anecdotal observation, nothing more. I spend most of my time in the High Desert country. It is normal for us to have low moisture. Almost all of our moisture is from winter snow and early spring storms. After that we get almost nothing most years. The joke at work is "this is the week that the grass will be green, better enjoy it."

So many of the bulls I observe in the spring and early summer seem to start out looking amazing, then just peter out to not much after their forth. A surprisingly high number of the elk sheds I find are just massive until they get passed their forth and then not so much. Certainly not universal but seems to be a pattern for this country.

Rie bread · Mar 2, 2023

harsh winters jeep the strongest genetics alive.
deep snowpack from a hydrological stand point is very good for a water shed. just have to hope we don’t get a big rain on snow event to wash its away like last year

yotebuster17 · Mar 2, 2023

Rie bread said:
harsh winters jeep the strongest genetics alive.
deep snowpack from a hydrological stand point is very good for a water shed. just have to hope we don’t get a big rain on snow event to wash its away like last year

Strongest genetics for surviving harsh winters also happen to be the best genetics for antler growth?!? I don’t think there’s any connection there. If anything it’s the inverse

yotebuster17 · Mar 2, 2023

nfh said:
A wet Spring doesnt equal bigger antlers.

I have shot my most massive elk and deer in drought years.

A good wet spring animals go crazy eating that fresh grass so quick they seem not to get the nutrients.

I think that depends a lot on where you are. I absolutely agree with you in areas with higher average rainfall. Here in western ND and NE MT a drought is the best thing that ever happened to deer and elk. It usually means a mild open winter, and the feed is much more nutrient dense on drought years. In areas of the desert SW wet years produce feed that it nutrient dense, and drought years produce no feed (obvious problem). It it was simply about the highest amount of feed possible, the critters that stand in chest deep alfalfa and grain crops would be the biggest every year, but the desert states continue to dominate on wet years and always will.

Bookhead · Mar 2, 2023

I'm a firm believer in genetics and age is what makes big deer and elk if they were on the brink of starvation I could see that affecting new antler growth but I don't think that's common even on drought years given the time of year

Rie bread · Mar 2, 2023

yotebuster17 said:
Strongest genetics for surviving harsh winters also happen to be the best genetics for antler growth?!? I don’t think there’s any connection there. If anything it’s the inverse

i wasn’t talking horns.

nfh · Mar 2, 2023

Bookhead said:
I'm a firm believer in genetics and age is what makes big deer and elk if they were on the brink of starvation I could see that affecting new antler growth but I don't think that's common even on drought years given the time of year

My problem with genetics is everyone thinks a 200" deer is going to produce the best fawns.

A doe could be the one to pass on the good genetics.

Does genetics in deer work like humans where it can skip a generation type deal?

Bookhead · Mar 2, 2023

nfh said:
My problem with genetics is everyone thinks a 200" deer is going to produce the best fawns.

A doe could be the one to pass on the good genetics.

Does genetics in deer work like humans where it can skip a generation type deal?

Idk I would assume the deer breeders would know the most about that

elks96 · Mar 2, 2023

mulecreek said:
My anecdotal observation, nothing more. I spend most of my time in the High Desert country. It is normal for us to have low moisture. Almost all of our moisture is from winter snow and early spring storms. After that we get almost nothing most years. The joke at work is "this is the week that the grass will be green, better enjoy it."

So many of the bulls I observe in the spring and early summer seem to start out looking amazing, then just peter out to not much after their forth. A surprisingly high number of the elk sheds I find are just massive until they get passed their forth and then not so much. Certainly not universal but seems to be a pattern for this country.

Yep. And if you watch those units the years when there is really good top end growth are the years where in the mid late summer you end up with a pattern of late afternoon showers etc. I really think the difference between a 340 bull and a 360 bull can be one or 2 rain storms…

Bookhead · Mar 2, 2023

elks96 said:
Yep. And if you watch those units the years when there is really good top end growth are the years where in the mid late summer you end up with a pattern of late afternoon showers etc. I really think the difference between a 340 bull and a 360 bull can be one or 2 rain storms…

You think? Sounds pretty wild to me

Bookhead · Mar 2, 2023

I'd lean more towards weak tops being a dominant gene most years and some years there more with good tops then other years. I see the same thing in some areas around here with a bunch of bulls having short 3rds while a few dont

mulecreek · Mar 2, 2023

Bookhead said:
I'd lean more towards weak tops being a dominant gene most years and some years there more with good tops then other years. I see the same thing in some areas around here with a bunch of bulls having short 3rds while a few dont

You could easily be correct. I don't have any proof just an observation and a theory.

Bookhead · Mar 2, 2023

I also don't know that's just what I feel like. I'm no scientist

elks96 · Mar 2, 2023

Bookhead said:
I also don't know that's just what I feel like. I'm no scientist

I had a unit 2 tag and of course the NW Colorado bulls were all supposed to have short thirds and weaker tops. The year I had the tag I had the rain that I mentioned. About every 2 weeks we got rain. I had bulls that the year before on camera that had 9” thirds end up with 12-13 in thirds. Same bull from a buddies camera same water holes etc.

It was pretty crazy how good some of the bulls finished. The only bulls that year that short 3rds had really
Really short thirds like obviously not good genes. But the year before there were several bulls with weak thirds and shorter tops that had significantly better tops and thirds the year I was able to hunt.

Not all but there were like 6-7 east to identify bulls that were significantly bigger my year than the year before and they were all much better up too. They year before was significantly drier through the summer.

jims · Mar 2, 2023

From what I’ve seen, md and elk antler growth in any given year has more to do with moisture than for horned species like antelope.

Pronghorn buck fawns born with thin pedicles are pretty much doomed with thinner horns for life. Their pedicles won’t suddenly increase in diameter much in a wet year. Pronghorn buck fawns born in years when does are super healthy will likely produce more massive pedicles that they will carry for the rest of their lives.

I’m a firm believer that healthy native browse that is present year-round where md bucks and does spend time in the winter ranges through the summers and into the fall all contribute to healthier bucks does, and fawns… and better antler growth.

Obviously the more fat stores bucks have going into, through, and after the winter the quicker and easier it will be for them to convert to antler growth that coming spring through summer. After a nasty winter it may take a bit of time for deer to recover but there is likely a good chance that deeper snow and wetter conditions will improve the quality and quantity of browse.

Winter through early spring moisture is critical for mtn mahogany, antelope bitterbrush, and sage leader growth. There is a little leader growth that occurs in our area later in the summer until around October. Late summer moisture helps keep leaf drop from happening on some of these shrubs later into the fall.

Nutritious forbs are also important to md. Most forbs in our area are pretty well done growing by the first week in July so moisture in July and later doesn’t make a whole lot of difference to those plants that have already dried up and gone dormant. Late season cool temps and moisture often allows later season native forbs and shrubs to stay greener a little later into the summer or fall.

Obviously a lot can change from 1 area to the next with different species, elevations, slopes/aspects, browse species and weather conditions.

Sometimes weather patterns may hit one area and miss another. I found this true in an area I hunted this year in Wyo. One area was brown while 10 miles away was green through the fall. Guess where the critters were?

There are lots of factors but healthy habitat is super critical for healthy deer and good antler growth.

Homer · Mar 2, 2023

lol....I need an ice pick....

SS! · Mar 2, 2023

Waiting for my edibles to kick in before I reply

lostinOregon · Mar 3, 2023

I see a lot more deer and elk that never get near the magic numbers of 400/200. It’s genetics, if you gave them perfect conditions they wouldn’t reach 400/200. I have hunted enough places for mule deer to see genetic traits in geographic areas.

junior · Mar 3, 2023

#1 genetics are huge...
Couchlock @ SS

jims · Mar 3, 2023

3xs in Wyo are a great example!!!???

Rie bread · Mar 3, 2023

i’m gonna just guess but a young buck that survives this, then will benefit greatly from the extended moisture from the snow pack. getting a leg up ?

Bookhead · Mar 3, 2023

Rie bread said:
i’m gonna just guess but a young buck that survives this, then will benefit greatly from the extended moisture from the snow pack. getting a leg up ?

That was the original question

sneakem · Mar 3, 2023

A lot of those mature bucks are going to be expending more energy to survive the winter and less it into horn growth after they shed. I would guess it's not going to be a banner year for growth regardless of the moisture throughout the summer.

elks96 · Mar 3, 2023

Bookhead said:
That was the original question

I really think the answer will depend largerly on how the melt timing goes and prolonged moisture.

Again I think that if we have the right setup it cod be good, but if it gets hot fast, the water all ends up in other states…

jm77 · Mar 3, 2023

sneakem said:
A lot of those mature bucks are going to be expending more energy to survive the winter and less it into horn growth after they shed. I would guess it's not going to be a banner year for growth regardless of the moisture throughout the summer.

This is always the case, no matter how hard the winter. Deer grow their antlers back until the end of July. We all state what we think the reason for good, average or bad antler growth is and we are all mostly guessing how much the winter plays in it.