CO wildlife commission meeting last week

DidIDraw · Mar 20, 2023

Any clarity come from the wildlife commission meetings last week?
I'm very curious about point banking and point averaging to know if they have any legs at all. Also, interested if the NR tag allocation is likely to change.

ORIONTHEHUNTER · Mar 20, 2023

They are going to look deeper at point banking, I heard point averaging was thrown out for consideration

BigChiefJ · Mar 23, 2023

Are they going to try to do point banking this year?

270Whatelse · Mar 23, 2023

? nope

idahohuntr · Mar 23, 2023

what is point banking?

ORIONTHEHUNTER · Mar 23, 2023

BigChiefJ said:
Are they going to try to do point banking this year?

They are considering it for next year. They threw out point averaging but the commission wanted to look more at point banking before making a decision.

BigChiefJ · Mar 23, 2023

idahohuntr said:
what is point banking?

It's where they would take only the points required to draw the hunt plus an additional 1-3 points. You could draw a hunt and possibly have some points for the next year.

elks96 · Mar 23, 2023

Point banking is the best way to cause point inflation in low and mid tier units. It will be great to watch all the easier to draw hunts run up tons of points.

The one thing that i found concerning when it came to the banking question, averaging etc. is no one on the commission knew what problem they were actually trying to “fix”.

I still don’t know what problem point banking will fix… It is pretty obvious the problem it will create…

idahohuntr · Mar 23, 2023

Thank you for the explanation. I suppose this caters to moderate/higher point holders who have done the math and realize they won't get the very top tier hunts.

elks96 · Mar 23, 2023

idahohuntr said:
Thank you for the explanation. I suppose this caters to moderate/higher point holders who have done the math and realize they won't get the very top tier hunts.

Yes. And as a result as those guys in “no man’s” land get less units 3-4 years in a row. There will be a whole chunk of guys building points to get the same tags. It is a horrible idea, as it will simply make less units climb a bunch in creep.

Stevo · Mar 24, 2023

I would definitely prefer to do 2 hunts in a 4 point unit than do 1 hunt with my current 10 points.

fallguy · Mar 24, 2023

elks96 said:
Yes. And as a result as those guys in “no man’s” land get less units 3-4 years in a row. There will be a whole chunk of guys building points to get the same tags. It is a horrible idea, as it will simply make less units climb a bunch in creep.

Exactly.

nripepi · Mar 24, 2023

elks96 said:
Yes. And as a result as those guys in “no man’s” land get less units 3-4 years in a row. There will be a whole chunk of guys building points to get the same tags. It is a horrible idea, as it will simply make less units climb a bunch in creep.

I don't exactly agree. With quality going down because of management decisions, it seems fair to those with so many points to have options for 2 average hunts instead of 1 average hunt. It will get some of the high point players out of the chasing game. Right now they are stuck and can't hunt average units. I think it needs investigated for sure with some surveys on how many points you have and would you point bank or not to know the actual ramifications. If you make one use 3 extra points each time they point bank I think it would be fair and a useful tool.

Going limited quota for elk at the same time would also be a useful tool

tailchasers · Mar 24, 2023

nripepi said:
I don't exactly agree. With quality going down because of management decisions, it seems fair to those with so many points to have options for 2 average hunts instead of 1 average hunt. It will get some of the high point players out of the chasing game. Right now they are stuck and can't hunt average units. I think it needs investigated for sure with some surveys on how many points you have and would you point bank or not to know the actual ramifications. If you make one use 3 extra points each time they point bank I think it would be fair and a useful tool.

Going limited quota for elk at the same time would also be a useful tool

You lost me at "fair". So since game quality sucks we need more entitlement for those that saved up points rather than hunt? Building points is like gambling, ya know. Live with your choices and accept the risk. Now that some are weeping we gotta change the rules a g a i n to favor a certain demographic.

Bluehair · Mar 24, 2023

Complaining about increased pressure on low point units seems like a first-world problem for those of us who live in OTC units

Don’t forget its quite possible for residents to build points and still hunt every year.

Maybe this will take a little pressure off the OTC units?

Talking elk of course.

RRCowboyStar · Mar 24, 2023

I don't know if it will really make a difference. Most of the people that I talk to that have double digit points, seem more interested in building points than actually hunting. I also talked to a few people do not understand the preference point system, they put in for areas that they have 0% chance of drawing and are OK with not hunting every year.
I have to assume that the people who use services that put them in draws have no clue as to when or if they will ever draw. The service companies that do this service don't care if they draw, they will be back next year and people will pay to do the work for them again.
The group that is informed and keep up with how many points it takes to draw a unit and put the effort into hunting a low point LE unit is small in my opinion.

tailchasers · Mar 24, 2023

elks96 said:
Yes. And as a result as those guys in “no man’s” land get less units 3-4 years in a row. There will be a whole chunk of guys building points to get the same tags. It is a horrible idea, as it will simply make less units climb a bunch in creep.

So elks96 and idahohuntr this would be sensible to Colorado's democratic majority. ?

JakeH · Mar 24, 2023

nripepi said:
I don't exactly agree. With quality going down because of management decisions, it seems fair to those with so many points to have options for 2 average hunts instead of 1 average hunt. It will get some of the high point players out of the chasing game. Right now they are stuck and can't hunt average units. I think it needs investigated for sure with some surveys on how many points you have and would you point bank or not to know the actual ramifications. If you make one use 3 extra points each time they point bank I think it would be fair and a useful tool.

Going limited quota for elk at the same time would also be a useful tool

Why is everyone so keen to get high points holders out of the game? You will never get the high end units down to a low points needed to draw. Keep those guys in the system as long as they choose to be, if they want to hunt there is a plethora of options available but you will have to burn those points.

No one deserves extra tags just because they chose to sit out of the game longer to build points.

And the more guys you bring out of the high points pool the more you add to the low points pool, this just adds more pressure to the low points units, and 0-3 point units are now 3-6 point units. It's a viscous cycle that isn't going to get better as long as the points system is in place.

nripepi · Mar 24, 2023

JakeH said:
Why is everyone so keen to get high points holders out of the game? You will never get the high end units down to a low points needed to draw. Keep those guys in the system as long as they choose to be, if they want to hunt there is a plethora of options available but you will have to burn those points.

No one deserves extra tags just because they chose to sit out of the game longer to build points.

And the more guys you bring out of the high points pool the more you add to the low points pool, this just adds more pressure to the low points units, and 0-3 point units are now 3-6 point units. It's a viscous cycle that isn't going to get better as long as the points system is in place.

We can agree to disagree then. I think it is fair because the quality has tanked while they waited their time. I really don't think that many will jump especially if they have to pay a 3 point penalty. It stinks to be sitting at high points, I am max in Wyoming deer and just apply for the top units and wait. Can't really do anything else as I am so invested and so close to a tag.

idahohuntr · Mar 24, 2023

Point systems are a ponzi scheme - so when bureaucrats start poking around with ways to 'improve' the fraud I tend to be skeptical. I definitely hope they do not adopt point banking. If they are going to tweak anything, I would prefer they look at options to provide some random opportunity - instead of basically 100% preference...at least for adult NR's.

JakeH · Mar 24, 2023

nripepi said:
We can agree to disagree then. I think it is fair because the quality has tanked while they waited their time. I really don't think that many will jump especially if they have to pay a 3 point penalty. It stinks to be sitting at high points, I am max in Wyoming deer and just apply for the top units and wait. Can't really do anything else as I am so invested and so close to a tag.

Fair??? there has never been any guarantee, at what you are going to kill on any unit. Yes some offer better opportunity than others, but nothing is for certain.

Those guys with lots of points have had ample opportunity to go hunt on other hunts over the years, nobody made them build those points.

How is it fair to the guys that have just started into the system if you are letting the high point guys jump in front of them multiple times in a row???

Thill · Mar 25, 2023

The goal of point banking is to have more points consumed. Point banking will certainly achieve this for all of the point holders stuck in no mans land with the 1-3 point surcharge to draw some of the mid level tags.

For a few years the mid level units would certainly have "point inflation", but this would only be for a few years. This topic was discussed at the focus groups last year.

There is no easy solutions or answers for the rather large pool of point holders both resident and NR's that are in the no mans land.
This group of point holders is screwed one way or another unless you change from a preference based point system for Deer/Elk/Antelope.

elks96 · Mar 25, 2023

Thill said:
The goal of point banking is to have more points consumed. Point banking will certainly achieve this for all of the point holders stuck in no mans land with the 1-3 point surcharge to draw some of the mid level tags.

For a few years the mid level units would certainly have "point inflation", but this would only be for a few years. This topic was discussed at the focus groups last year.

There is no easy solutions or answers for the rather large pool of point holders both resident and NR's that are in the no mans land.
This group of point holders is screwed one way or another unless you change from a preference based point system for Deer/Elk/Antelope.

Show me how any unit will only have inflation for a few years? Did you really believe that Bidens inflation was transitory?

The unit will stay inflated for ever. Once the point banking bumps all units up 3-4 more points there will never be a time where they will go back down. They will only go up as there are more people wanting tags than tags available.

All units will inflate. As the guys who were planning g mid tier units currently are forced to either get more points now for the same hunt or they are forced to dump points into the lower units. As those working for mid drop to the lower units guys that typically hunt the lower units all the sudden start needing 2-3 points, and the cycle goes on…

Thill · Mar 25, 2023

Take a guy with 15 points and he decides he wants to spend them on a couple of units that now take 2-3 points. He/she will consume those 15 points in just of couple of hunts and he/she will no longer have 15 points.

Yes there is the possibility that he liked those hunts enough that he would consider applying for them future hunts. But this would have been the case initially if he hadn't been collected preference points for 15 years.

Those points have to go somewhere,

Bluehair · Mar 25, 2023

If there are enough high point holders to change the short term odds for that many units, then it should follow that a boatload of those points will be burned with the banking penalty.

DOW incentivizes you to spend what you paid for to play another game. Genious.

idahohuntr · Mar 25, 2023

Thill said:
Take a guy with 15 points and he decides he wants to spend them on a couple of units that now take 2-3 points. He/she will consume those 15 points in just of couple of hunts and he/she will no longer have 15 points.

Why is the 15 point person entitled to a couple hunts? If they have 15 points they can use them to get a tag in a 2-3 point unit...or a 10 point unit...I don't see why they should be entitled to multiple hunts in consecutive years.

Thill · Mar 25, 2023

Entitled? Sure if they pay the license fee. The point banking topic is trying consume the preference points. If every tag holder in no mans land decided this draw to cash in their points this year without point banking then this problem goes away right now.

15-20 years ago, most of the hard to draw tags were a possibility for the new applicants. With declining tags, increased applicants this is no longer the case.

This avalanche of applicants didn't just surface overnight. Under the present preference point system. Anyone whom started applying at age 12 statistically would/could die before they could ever be awarded one of the highly coveted tags that 15 or 20years ago would have been a lock by now.

The system is breaking/broken and this is one option to start addressing it.

Email the committee with your thoughts.

You want to see point creep this year. Just wait until the tags allotted for NW/Southern CO comes out this year after the nasty killing winter that is STILL GOING ON. It is still winter in most of the western slope and there is no break in the next 10days of my weather reports.

ORIONTHEHUNTER · Mar 25, 2023

Ha you think CPW will actually cut tags?

Bluehair · Mar 25, 2023

I’ve been wondering the same thing.

elks96 · Mar 25, 2023

ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
Ha you think CPW will actually cut tags?

Yeah I don’t see the CPW cutting any tags. Especially ones that require points….

Thill · Mar 25, 2023

Maybe I am wrong and it won't be the last time, but I thought they made the quota recommendations for Deer/Elk/Antelope/Moose in May.
I would find it hard to believe they won't make adjustments on the limited licenses in the areas that have been hit hard with winter kill.

I am certain they have adjusted quota's in the past. I am sure Oak or someone on this site is more knowledgeable on quota adjustments and how and when they change than I am.

I had griped to the CPW a few years back that it would be nice to know in advance if any adjustments were being make to tag numbers especially Moose as this would impact your odds of drawing a tag. And the answer I was told is the tags are set in May and they didn't have the data at the time draw closed.

ORIONTHEHUNTER · Mar 25, 2023

We've had bad winters down here in the southwest corner without tag cuts before so I won't be shocked if they don't cut any tags. With their current extermination plan on mule deer I don't see any cuts being made in that department

nripepi · Mar 27, 2023

JakeH said:
Fair??? there has never been any guarantee, at what you are going to kill on any unit. Yes some offer better opportunity than others, but nothing is for certain.

Those guys with lots of points have had ample opportunity to go hunt on other hunts over the years, nobody made them build those points.

How is it fair to the guys that have just started into the system if you are letting the high point guys jump in front of them multiple times in a row???

Look at deer. If you had 15-20 points, what would you do? Probably sit on them and hope things get better? I know people in this situation and they really don't know what to do as quality has tanked across the state. Their best choice is to just keep getting points and hope quality gets better. What I am saying about Fair is that the person who burned them before quality tanked (that is what I did so this wouldn't help me at all) can now get a buck tag every few years after having one great hunt while the person who didn't burn them is stuck. I don't think that many will use point banking if you lose 3 of your points, but some will and I think it is fair because of Colorado's decisions on increased tag numbers and late seasons. They can get two mediocore hunts instead of one.

Elk is even more stark and I think if you had 20 points a small percentage of those would choose to have two 7-point hunts than keep buying points. I really don't think it will move the needle a ton if you make the banking 3 points. If it were only 1 point then I agree it could cause some issues.

My 2 cents that are not worth anything.

JakeH · Mar 27, 2023

nripepi said:
Look at deer. If you had 15-20 points, what would you do? Probably sit on them and hope things get better? I know people in this situation and they really don't know what to do as quality has tanked across the state. Their best choice is to just keep getting points and hope quality gets better. What I am saying about Fair is that the person who burned them before quality tanked (that is what I did so this wouldn't help me at all) can now get a buck tag every few years after having one great hunt while the person who didn't burn them is stuck. I don't think that many will use point banking if you lose 3 of your points, but some will and I think it is fair because of Colorado's decisions on increased tag numbers and late seasons. They can get two mediocore hunts instead of one.

Elk is even more stark and I think if you had 20 points a small percentage of those would choose to have two 7-point hunts than keep buying points. I really don't think it will move the needle a ton if you make the banking 3 points. If it were only 1 point then I agree it could cause some issues.

My 2 cents that are not worth anything.

If you are a resident with 15-20 points and you haven't used them at this point you are insane as there have been some damn good hunts they could have went on had they done the research instead of holding out for those tippy top end units.

If you are a nonresident with 15-20 points I feel the same way, you didn't have as much choice for really good units, but you had ample opportunity to go hunt especially if you was willing to look at other weapon types.

I don't feel bad for the guys in those predicaments they chose to hold on to those points. Why give them an out now? Those points have never been an indication of an out come be it size of deer or quality of hunt they are simply points needed to draw a tag, and every one of those people have options to go hunt even this year. The hunts might not be as good, as they was 15-20 years ago but they could still have a tag.

If they choose to keep sitting on them points until they are blue in the face that is their choices.

That's my 2 cents, and it's worth just as much as yours is.

ORIONTHEHUNTER · Mar 27, 2023

If any resident has that amount of points and wants to point bank they are an idiot, especially elk.

nripepi · Mar 27, 2023

JakeH said:
I don't feel bad for the guys in those predicaments they chose to hold on to those points. Why give them an out now?

Because management has changed and those decisions have lowered quality. What would you do this year if you had 15 deer or elk non-res points? Apply or hold on to them?

Thill · Mar 27, 2023

nripepi said:
Look at deer. If you had 15-20 points, what would you do? Probably sit on them and hope things get better? I know people in this situation and they really don't know what to do as quality has tanked across the state. Their best choice is to just keep getting points and hope quality gets better. What I am saying about Fair is that the person who burned them before quality tanked (that is what I did so this wouldn't help me at all) can now get a buck tag every few years after having one great hunt while the person who didn't burn them is stuck. I don't think that many will use point banking if you lose 3 of your points, but some will and I think it is fair because of Colorado's decisions on increased tag numbers and late seasons. They can get two mediocore hunts instead of one.

Elk is even more stark and I think if you had 20 points a small percentage of those would choose to have two 7-point hunts than keep buying points. I really don't think it will move the needle a ton if you make the banking 3 points. If it were only 1 point then I agree it could cause some issues.

My 2 cents that are not worth anything.

If you are resident I completely agree with the deer aspect of hanging on to your points and getting more points to see if the deer recover--Especially with the leftover/reissue tags that come up every year.

If I was a non-resident, I would probably still sit on them for a year or two as it sounds as if changes are being discussed. So maybe and just maybe they rework to system somewhat. Who knows whom it will benefit if they do.

Meanwhile I would start reseaching a few other units if you really want to slice up your deer/elk points and try and come to Colorado for a couple of hunts.

As a Colorado resident we all know better quality deer/elk/antelope hunting is just across most of our borders.

JakeH · Mar 27, 2023

nripepi said:
Because management has those decisions have lowered quality. What would you do this year if you had 15 deer or elk non-res points? Apply or hold on to them?

There is no good answer for elk in that point range, I have 8 elk points and am basically just building them in case something pops up down the road, I initially started building for a muzzy elk hunt somewhere, but have had better options else where so have not cashed them in. If it ever makes sense, too, i will use them on a hunt I can 100% draw. But at this point it's been my decision not to use them, and knowing I likely will never have the points for those top end units.

For deer there are some very good archery hunts to be had for 10-15 points as well as some decent muzzy hunts. I hunted an archery unit last year that took 11 points in the draw that Ihad never hunted before, and never set foot in it during the fall, I had only been in the unit in the spring. I picked the tag up off the re-issue list 7 day's before the hunt started and I was able to find six 170-190 bucks, the biggest being a 185-190" 5x6 as well as several other big mature deer i ended up settling on a smaller nice 25" 4x4 on the second day because I was able to kill him with my Dad, wife and two kids with me. Plus I only had the first 5 days to hunt due to work and other hunts, so I wasn't being super picky.

My cousin picked up a muzzleloader tag off the list that takes less than 10 points in the draw and killed a 190+ 5x7. I am burning my points on that unit this year for archery.

If you are an only rifle guy then look too the 2nd season hunts, 2nd season has the same dates as 3rd season used to be for years, it's getting early to peak rutting action and you get first Crack at them with a rifle.

Like I said if you are willing to do some research, and look at other options you haven't considered before, there are lots of good options for you.

HntHrdr · Mar 27, 2023

Thill said:
The goal of point banking is to have more points consumed. Point banking will certainly achieve this for all of the point holders stuck in no mans land with the 1-3 point surcharge to draw some of the mid level tags.

For a few years the mid level units would certainly have "point inflation", but this would only be for a few years. This topic was discussed at the focus groups last year.

There is no easy solutions or answers for the rather large pool of point holders both resident and NR's that are in the no mans land.
This group of point holders is screwed one way or another unless you change from a preference based point system for Deer/Elk/Antelope.

My big question is who decides the 1-3 point penalty? Say I have 20 points and hunt a 6 point unit. Will I use 7, 8, or 9 points? Kind of up in the air unless they solidify it.

Thill · Mar 27, 2023

I can't remember the specifics from the focus group, but the 1-3 points rings a bell. If the tag required 6 points, then it will definitely be 6 or more points used if they go to banking.

Thill · Mar 27, 2023

It was just posted on CO forum about the possibility of 40% cut in tags for the NW region. Tell me this won't result in point creep for the rest of the state!

HntHrdr · Mar 28, 2023

Thill said:
It was just posted on CO forum about the possibility of 40% cut in tags for the NW region. Tell me this won't result in point creep for the rest of the state!

Depends how closely those that apply follow weather/hunting forums. Some apply blindly, but if they have any sense they will all be apply to other units that didn’t have as hard a winter

BigChiefJ · Mar 28, 2023

HntHrdr said:
My big question is who decides the 1-3 point penalty? Say I have 20 points and hunt a 6 point unit. Will I use 7, 8, or 9 points? Kind of up in the air unless they solidify it.

I think they are looking at a 3 extra points for the current proposal.

In your example; if you started with 20 points, you would lose 9 points if you drew a 6 point unit. You would have 11 to use in the future.