Having to put the money up front for Big Game Tag in draws.

Iddogguy

Active Member
Messages
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I remember a lot less people putting in for Big Game Hunts when you had to submit tag fees with applications. If that were the case, it would really cut out people just collecting points. Wyoming & New Mexico you still have to submit fees with apps. If you put in for all available big game animals in these two states, you're fronting around 21,000 dollars. So, if I was having to front tags fees for everything, I put in for I'd be over 40,000 dollars!!!!! Much better draw odds I'd suspect!
 
I remember a lot less people putting in for Big Game Hunts when you had to submit tag fees with applications. If that were the case, it would really cut out people just collecting points. Wyoming & New Mexico you still have to submit fees with apps. If you put in for all available big game animals in these two states, you're fronting around 21,000 dollars. So, if I was having to front tags fees for everything, I put in for I'd be over 40,000 dollars!!!!! Much better draw odds I'd suspect!
I think all tags should be auctioned off. After all it’s for conservation!
 
Here’s what I’m talking about. It’s hard to compare states because they all do things different. I’m not saying what’s right or wrong. Or how each state should run their Game Departments. The odds are just getting insane in some states.

Wyoming gave out 13 goat tags to nonresidents. There were 1259 nonresident persons that applied for tags. That’s 1 in 97 odds.

Utah gave out 7 goat tags to nonresidents. There were 8916 people that applied. That’s 1 in 1274. That’s quite a big difference. Not sure if it all relates to having to submit the tag fees with the application?

Utah gave out 18 nonresident Bison tags. There were 8355 nonresident applicants. That’s 1 in 464.

Wyoming gave out 30 Bison tags with 520 nonresident applicants. That’s 1 in 17.

And Yes I can’t draw none of them!!?
 
I remember a lot less people putting in for Big Game Hunts when you had to submit tag fees with applications. If that were the case, it would really cut out people just collecting points. Wyoming & New Mexico you still have to submit fees with apps. If you put in for all available big game animals in these two states, you're fronting around 21,000 dollars. So, if I was having to front tags fees for everything, I put in for I'd be over 40,000 dollars!!!!! Much better draw odds I'd suspect!
My credit card balance shows that for a couple months a year!
 
Biggest effect was in Colorado, when they dropped "pay-up-front-with-check-only" for non-residents. For example NR moose app numbers that first year (2018) exploded, increasing from 2600 apps to 21000 apps. Since it became free to apply for M-S-G as add-on species, people figured......why not? They'll never return to the old system, so we may as well just buck up and place our hopes elsewhere.
 
I also support pay upfront.
You will not see the results in the first year or two but after a couple years I believe people who are not real serious hunters will fall by the wayside, therefore finally helping slow point creep.
It is just too easy too keep adding names and units for $10 ‘just in case’.
If we really want to slow creep require the funds be sent in with a paper check, don’t even allow the luxury of credit cards.
Credit cards are just too easy to use.
Think along the lines of Super Bowl tickets or something similar. You don’t get to ‘apply’ for a seat. You have to have funds ready and follow exact timelines to get a seat each year.
You have to ask yourself what extra steps need to be taken to weed out the folks that aren’t serious about hunting if you want to be taken serious?
 
I imagine it would make a difference for some and you might see draw odds increase a little but probably not as much as you might think. People who are into the points game will just put fees on credit card and either pay off in full after 30 days or make a minimum payment for a month or two if they don't have funds to pay off. When my kids were in HS they played a lot of sports and were not allowed to miss practices or games, so I just bought them points. What about someone who just buys points and not actually enter the draw? Should they have to front the full amount? I only buy points for Wyoming and will not begin to use them for a few more years. Should I have to front the entire tag fee even though I am not really applying for tags?

Most western G&F departments have figured out there is a goldmine just waiting to be had by charging application fees. They do not want to decrease the number of applicants but rather increase the number. Arizona has mastered the art of making money from a resource but not actually providing more opportunity. I shake my head at all the ways AZG&F squeeze us for money, but you don't want to be left out, so you participate in all their shenanigans.

With regards to AZ charging up front I am almost 100% positive this violates one or two of their state banking laws and this is why they can't do it. If you want to make a change in AZ, you first need to make the change in our banking laws.

The commercialization of hunting, human migration/population growth has had a much bigger impact on western draw odds than anything else IMO. Happy Hunting
 
I imagine it would make a difference for some and you might see draw odds increase a little but probably not as much as you might think. People who are into the points game will just put fees on credit card and either pay off in full after 30 days or make a minimum payment for a month or two if they don't have funds to pay off. When my kids were in HS they played a lot of sports and were not allowed to miss practices or games, so I just bought them points. What about someone who just buys points and not actually enter the draw? Should they have to front the full amount? I only buy points for Wyoming and will not begin to use them for a few more years. Should I have to front the entire tag fee even though I am not really applying for tags?

Most western G&F departments have figured out there is a goldmine just waiting to be had by charging application fees. They do not want to decrease the number of applicants but rather increase the number. Arizona has mastered the art of making money from a resource but not actually providing more opportunity. I shake my head at all the ways AZG&F squeeze us for money, but you don't want to be left out, so you participate in all their shenanigans.

With regards to AZ charging up front I am almost 100% positive this violates one or two of their state banking laws and this is why they can't do it. If you want to make a change in AZ, you first need to make the change in our banking laws.

The commercialization of hunting, human migration/population growth has had a much bigger impact on western draw odds than anything else IMO. Happy Hunting
I do not know the in and outs of the banking laws either, maybe that is why we (Utah) does what it does.
I was just dreaming of ways to trim out the folks that don’t care about hunting as much as me so I could hopefully hunt my chosen weapon/area for Deer each year like the good old days.
We humans really know how to screw a good thing up by over populating don’t we.
Happy hunting to you also!
 
With regards to AZ charging up front I am almost 100% positive this violates one or two of their state banking laws and this is why they can't do it. If you want to make a change in AZ, you first need to make the change in our banking laws.

That was the rumor. I spent an hour chatting with a Director at the G&F, and he assured me that was not the case. If you look up those laws (I did a year ago)- they really do not apply here.

Of course, he also assured me they were heavily considering changing it. So much for that...
 
NM doesn't require you to front any ACTUAL money if you're smart about it. Because NM draw results turn around quicker than ONE CC billing cycle.

I chatted a couple months ago with my CC to change my billing cycle to end on the 21st of each month.

Today, 3/22 by 5pm I will apply for NM on the first day of my billing cycle.

As long as results by 4/21 (which they almost surely will), then I won't have to pay off that ~$25K to my CC company to avoid finance charges.

How is it that NM can do this and not even charge a 3% CC fee but WY alleges they actually pay 3% CC fees and can't get results back for over 4 months?
 
NM doesn't require you to front any ACTUAL money if you're smart about it. Because NM draw results turn around quicker than ONE CC billing cycle.

I chatted a couple months ago with my CC to change my billing cycle to end on the 21st of each month.

Today, 3/22 by 5pm I will apply for NM on the first day of my billing cycle.

As long as results by 4/21 (which they almost surely will), then I won't have to pay off that ~$25K to my CC company to avoid finance charges.

How is it that NM can do this and not even charge a 3% CC fee but WY alleges they actually pay 3% CC fees and can't get results back for over 4 months?
That would take discipline, that’s in short supply now days!!!
 
NM doesn't require you to front any ACTUAL money if you're smart about it. Because NM draw results turn around quicker than ONE CC billing cycle.

I chatted a couple months ago with my CC to change my billing cycle to end on the 21st of each month.

Today, 3/22 by 5pm I will apply for NM on the first day of my billing cycle.

As long as results by 4/21 (which they almost surely will), then I won't have to pay off that ~$25K to my CC company to avoid finance charges.

How is it that NM can do this and not even charge a 3% CC fee but WY alleges they actually pay 3% CC fees and can't get results back for over 4 months?
They usually take a week or so after the results to post refunds. CC company doesn’t really care if you drew a tag or not, just if you spent the money. As far as I’ve been able to figure out through my years of applying there, there’s no way around a month of finance charges short of paying it off which is what I do.
 
I’ve mentioned this before. Make it non refundable and really see your odds go up….
That makes no sense, so that only the extremely wealthy can apply? As stated above you would be out 40k plus for just New Mexico and Wyoming alone, not to mention when no one can afford to apply for a tag how much will that increase the tags they do have. Who here can afford to take 40 or 50k in the shorts a year?
 
That makes no sense, so that only the extremely wealthy can apply? As stated above you would be out 40k plus for just New Mexico and Wyoming alone, not to mention when no one can afford to apply for a tag how much will that increase the tags they do have. Who here can afford to take 40 or 50k in the shorts a year?
That would be the whole point. Odds are drastically lowered because people have to choose what raffle tickets they want to purchase. I'm not in favor of this but I do understand the idea.
 
That makes no sense, so that only the extremely wealthy can apply? As stated above you would be out 40k plus for just New Mexico and Wyoming alone, not to mention when no one can afford to apply for a tag how much will that increase the tags they do have. Who here can afford to take 40 or 50k in the shorts a year?
Or…. You would have to pick the one tag this year you can afford to apply for. Then pick again next year what you can afford . Now imagine that being everyone’s new normal and just like that. Everyone’s odds get better. You don’t have to apply for 40k worth of tag every year do you? What if you drew them all? Sounds like paying for them would be an issue so in reality most guys only wanna pull the one 5k tag anyway.

But. Whatever. Carry on
 
Just eliminate points altogether and make it a random draw. That eliminates the people putting in just to keep up. The point systems are what has created this extra demand. The fear of missing out means most will apply for every possible animal, even without a specific desire to hunt that species right now.

The Wildlife departments loves this as people pay more in fees without issuing anymore tags. But it has completely undermined the premise of most states systems, and led to rampant point creep. It will never happen, but a return to random drawings will fix much more than fronting the money, or any other scheme.

Bill
 
Just eliminate points altogether and make it a random draw. That eliminates the people putting in just to keep up. The point systems are what has created this extra demand. The fear of missing out means most will apply for every possible animal, even without a specific desire to hunt that species right now.

The Wildlife departments loves this as people pay more in fees without issuing anymore tags. But it has completely undermined the premise of most states systems, and led to rampant point creep. It will never happen, but a return to random drawings will fix much more than fronting the money, or any other scheme.

Bill
Yes because it’s so incredibly easy to pull primo tags every year in Idaho and NM with their lack of point system….
 
Every system sucks- because it sucks that there aren't enough premium permits for hunters who want them.

So we all play whatever games are afforded us.

I like that states have different approaches (some random, some PP, some BP, some higher cost, some cheap)- it gives folks choices as to what to chase.
 
I think all tags should be auctioned off. After all it’s for conservation!
I think all tags should be be first come first serve. All license sales start at @ 12:01am January 1st @ the Denver office. Please keep the line orderly, alcoholic beverages are encouraged.
 
I’ve mentioned this before. Make it non refundable and really see your odds go up….
True, true... then the rich will be the only one's hunting.! Yay.!

Oh, and to make up the loss of money, tag $$$ will increase... then the wealthy will be the only one's hunting.! Yay.!

And that is what we want, isn't it.? ?
 
I do not know the in and outs of the banking laws either, maybe that is why we (Utah) does what it does.
I was just dreaming of ways to trim out the folks that don’t care about hunting as much as me so I could hopefully hunt my chosen weapon/area for Deer each year like the good old days.
We humans really know how to screw a good thing up by over populating don’t we.
Happy hunting to you also!
Maybe its you who doesn't care enough about hunting.?? You can already hunt your preferred animal, with your preferred weapon every year... buy CWMU tags. You just have to spend enough money, er, I mean, care enough... ???
 
Maybe its you who doesn't care enough about hunting.?? You can already hunt your preferred animal, with your preferred weapon every year... buy CWMU tags. You just have to spend enough money, er, I mean, care enough... ???
Yeah, you figured me out.
I hope you are able to buy all the CWMU tags you want this year.
 
True, true... then the rich will be the only one's hunting.! Yay.!

Oh, and to make up the loss of money, tag $$$ will increase... then the wealthy will be the only one's hunting.! Yay.!

And that is what we want, isn't it.? ?
Exactly my point and what I mentioned.

Even the short of all this, it’s all a waste of time it doesn’t matter the states much less all of them at anytime are going to change their current system. So we can argue, disagree and piss and moan but it isn’t going to change so basically we either play in the different systems offered or we don’t. Have this on MM isn’t going to change the state departments idea.
 
Maybe each state should be resident hunting only. ? ? ?
They can’t. That has been tested in court.

The States may own the wildlife but the States cannot complete keep the citizens of the entire United States sharing them, to what someone has decided is to a reasonable degree. 90/10 ratio is being used broadly, No one that I know off has challenged that ratio in a federal court, that I know off.
 
I dont think upfront will help with draw odds much. The 2 states I hunt the least are both random, ID and NM. Fact is more people are looking at the states next door because its getting harder to get tags in your home state. Point creep, worse odds, increase in fees, and decrease in quality are the only things I can guarantee about the future of hunting. Way too many new hunters to meet what the resource can produce.
 
Or…. You would have to pick the one tag this year you can afford to apply for. Then pick again next year what you can afford . Now imagine that being everyone’s new normal and just like that. Everyone’s odds get better. You don’t have to apply for 40k worth of tag every year do you? What if you drew them all? Sounds like paying for them would be an issue so in reality most guys only wanna pull the one 5k tag anyway.

But. Whatever. Carry on

Except your solution is illegal. The nonrefundable app fee is just that, an administrative control that gives the chance at a lottery draw. The tag fee gives you the right to hunt should you draw.
 
If I'm not mistaken, some states switched to requiring a hunting license to apply or purchase a point. So what went from a $40-$50 point fee for not drawing went to $150 ish license plus a small point fee. Sounds like more money for the state game departments to me.

So when I might not have spent $50 per species for a point, now that I'm alredy $150 bucks in, and points are only another $10-15 per species, I buy more species points. Hence contributing to both the state game departments and point creep. AZ and CO come to mind.
 
What is killing are sport is $$$. 700k for a az. Mulie tag??? My wisconsin great whitetail property would sell for $8k/acre in 2 weeks. Who can afford that? We have to keep the peeps in the the game otherwise you lose the heritage and the votes. I bought a $250k Astin martin db11, but we need to think about the dude scrapin a tag, otherwise our sport is toast.

20210609_141549.jpg
 
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Gay? Its a hand built for 6 months, Amg, hand engraved twin turbo 205mph rocketship. You have to go to 3 million to beat it. Gay? Bring your combustion engine ride, lets play. The best ride outside of any bed.
 
They can’t. That has been tested in court.

The States may own the wildlife but the States cannot complete keep the citizens of the entire United States sharing them, to what someone has decided is to a reasonable degree. 90/10 ratio is being used broadly, No one that I know off has challenged that ratio in a federal court, that I know off.

States can exclude NRs. And many do in various ways.

0% NR allocation for:
MN moose
ND moose
SD sheep, goat, elk
CA elk is essentially 0% for NR elk except for 1 cow tag.
There are others as well.
 
States can exclude NRs. And many do in various ways.

0% NR allocation for:
MN moose
ND moose
SD sheep, goat, elk
CA elk is essentially 0% for NR elk except for 1 cow tag.
There are others as well.
Ca. Allows 1 nr sheep tag. I live here.
 
Hurt feelings report anyone? If you can “stroke” a check for that whip then you can stroke a check for hunts that place you out of this conversation and frankly out of this forum.
 
Yeah, you figured me out.
I hope you are able to buy all the CWMU tags you want this year.
Shane... you missed my point buddy. The amount of money you spend doesn't determine who loves or deserves hunting more. The fact of the matter is, ponying up money up front might actually help draw odds across the board... but I don't want people priced out of hunting... CWMUs were an example of pricing people out of hunting... thats all brother.! No offense intended ?
 
The last thing I would post on here is a 250k sports car, then to get upset that you get poked at? Come on now, we get it you have money
 
Biggest effect was in Colorado, when they dropped "pay-up-front-with-check-only" for non-residents. For example NR moose app numbers that first year (2018) exploded, increasing from 2600 apps to 21000 apps. Since it became free to apply for M-S-G as add-on species, people figured......why not? They'll never return to the old system, so we may as well just buck up and place our hopes elsewhere.
Agencies figure out the free money game was a huge revenue generator. Tag application fees, buying a license just to apply, buying bonus points. Selling intangible items that exist only in computers is good business if you can get it.

The magical money fountain will never go away.
 
And when you're on MM at 12:30 am bragging about how expensive your car is... and using horrible grammar at the same time... you may be a drunk.
 
What is killing are sport is $$$. 700k for a az. Mulie tag??? My wisconsin great whitetail property would sell for $8k/acre in 2 weeks. Who can afford that? We have to keep the peeps in the the game otherwise you lose the heritage and the votes. I bought a $250k Astin martin db11, but we need to think about the dude scrapin a tag, otherwise our sport is toast.

View attachment 106467

How many acres? I can afford it with someone else's money and then charge others to hunt the property to make the loan payment all the while putting passive income into my pocket...
 
My guess us you think its "gay" cuz you coudnt pay the tags, insurance or oil change which is 7k/year. I get it.lol.
:ROFLMAO: What was that three responses to my post. Someone’s a little insecure about something :LOL:

No, it’s just a gay car dude. And that’s ok, but saying because another guy that makes his living sticking his hands in another guy crotch from behind while he’s bent over bought one makes it not gay doesn’t really check out. And you’re the one that started throwing the “stroke” word around…. Just come out dude, you’ll feel better
 
They can’t. That has been tested in court.

The States may own the wildlife but the States cannot complete keep the citizens of the entire United States sharing them, to what someone has decided is to a reasonable degree. 90/10 ratio is being used broadly, No one that I know off has challenged that ratio in a federal court, that I know off.
Not true...total make believe BS.
 
Shane... you missed my point buddy. The amount of money you spend doesn't determine who loves or deserves hunting more. The fact of the matter is, ponying up money up front might actually help draw odds across the board... but I don't want people priced out of hunting... CWMUs were an example of pricing people out of hunting... thats all brother.! No offense intended ?
BR,
Thank you for the explanation, I did take it the wrong way.
And you are correct, the CWMU program, which I still support has priced guys like me out.
I like the program because these large property owners are taking very good care of their land, practicing effective predator control, and growing fantastic animals that sometimes forget where the property boundaries are and wander on to public land.
Supply and demand really sucks when it tips the wrong direction for the average MrShane.
Anyways, all is good and you have a fantastic weekend!
 
Not true...total make believe BS.
You could be right…… my memory isn’t always what I wish it was. I’ll say this again. “Never, ever believe anything I say.”

Having admitted that, let me tell another lie. Some time, back in the stories of hunting and tag allocation history, “it seems like” , I remember some outfitter with a home base in Arizona proposing some kind of deal for non-resident tag sales that shocked the hell out the State of Arizona and it’s resident sportsmen. I don’t remember the details but it was a deal that scared Arizona into thinking this Outfitter’s concept was going to have the potential of opening up the entire country to a huge portion of Arizona’s tags to non-resident hunters, thereby preventing Arizona’s residents of many hunting opportunities. It seemed like the two parties pushed it up to some level of a higher court decision before it was over. At any rate, “it seems like” that was when Arizona and a lot of the other Western States started allocation system for a specific ration of tags between residents and non-residents, fear if they stopped selling non-resident tag all together, the Feds or the Courts would step in….. and “possibly” open all State’s tags to every US citizen, and there by overwhelming the residents the opportunity to hunt there State’s big game.

As I writing this my old foggy memory seems to be thinking the name of the Outfitters company was something like U.S.A. Outfitters, and the owner’s name was something like Tillman, Talman, Tammen or something like that.

I apologize it I’m relating an old nightmare BussH, cuz this could be, as you say, total BullSh!t.
 
You could be right…… my memory isn’t always what I wish it was. I’ll say this again. “Never, ever believe anything I say.”

Having admitted that, let me tell another lie. Some time, back in the stories of hunting and tag allocation history, “it seems like” , I remember some outfitter with a home base in Arizona proposing some kind of deal for non-resident tag sales that shocked the hell out the State of Arizona and it’s resident sportsmen. I don’t remember the details but it was a deal that scared Arizona into thinking this Outfitter’s concept was going to have the potential of opening up the entire country to a huge portion of Arizona’s tags to non-resident hunters, thereby preventing Arizona’s residents of many hunting opportunities. It seemed like the two parties pushed it up to some level of a higher court decision before it was over. At any rate, “it seems like” that was when Arizona and a lot of the other Western States started allocation system for a specific ration of tags between residents and non-residents, fear if they stopped selling non-resident tag all together, the Feds or the Courts would step in….. and “possibly” open all State’s tags to every US citizen, and there by overwhelming the residents the opportunity to hunt there State’s big game.

As I writing this my old foggy memory seems to be thinking the name of the Outfitters company was something like U.S.A. Outfitters, and the owner’s name was something like Tillman, Talman, Tammen or something like that.

I apologize it I’m relating an old nightmare BussH, cuz this could be, as you say, total BullSh!t.
Taulman. USO. mtmuley
 
Taulman. USO. mtmuley
Yep. Maybe this was the deal, that these guys where talking about is that I “think” I remember.


 
Sign me up as well. Hunt where you live and are an actual constituent of the government that controls game management. If I could only hunt one state, it would be right here where I live. ——SS

While we're at it, states shouldn't accept any federal dollars at all since those funds came from more non-residents than residents of the state receiving those dollars.
 
Here’s another old discussion about it but the link to the bill the Bush apparent signed is broke,


I think this, what ever the hell “this” was, is the BS I was referring to. Buzz, I’m sure knowing that and a Hostess Twinkie with you coffee this morning is going calm your jaded nerves. I’d provide the Twinkie if I could afford the freight charges.
 
Taulman. USO. mtmuley
Correct and immediately S.339 was signed into law, reaffirming the states rights to regulate wildlife within its borders and discriminate against NR hunters any way they want.

Including, but not limited to, issuing ZERO NR licenses...also made the issue USO sued over moot, since this bill nullified the 9th circuit decision on AZ and the Dormant Commerce Clause.

All this leading to the States absolutely having the legal right to not issue NR's a single tag for any species they manage...and rightfully so.

Lumpy needs to get with the times...there is no law that forces any state to issue a single tag for any species to a NR hunter. No limit on how much they charge, season length, etc. States can discriminate any way they choose when it comes to NR's, period end of story:

109th CONGRESS
1st Session
S. 339

To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and fishing activities.


_______________________________________________________________________


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

February 9, 2005

Mr. Reid (for himself, Mr. Baucus, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Nelson of Nebraska,
Mr. Ensign, Mr. Enzi, Mr. Crapo, Mr. Hatch, Mr. Conrad, Mr. Salazar,
Mr. Craig, Mr. Bingaman, Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Kyl) introduced the
following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on
the Judiciary

April 21, 2005

Reported by Mr. Specter, without amendment

_______________________________________________________________________

A BILL



To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and fishing activities.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the ``Reaffirmation of State Regulation of Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of 2005''.

SEC. 2. DECLARATION OF POLICY AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONGRESSIONAL
SILENCE.

(a) In General.--It is the policy of Congress that it is in the
public interest for each State to continue to regulate the taking for any purpose of fish and wildlife within its boundaries, including by means of laws or regulations that differentiate between residents and nonresidents of such State with respect to the availability of licenses or permits for taking of particular species of fish or wildlife, the kind and numbers of fish and wildlife that may be taken, or the fees charged in connection with issuance of licenses or permits for hunting or fishing.

(b) Construction of Congressional Silence.--Silence on the part of Congress shall not be construed to impose any barrier under clause 3 of Section 8 of Article I of the Constitution (commonly referred to as the `commerce clause'') to the regulation of hunting or fishing by a State
or Indian tribe.

SEC. 3. LIMITATIONS.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed--
(1) to limit the applicability or effect of any Federal law
related to the protection or management of fish or wildlife or
to the regulation of commerce;
(2) to limit the authority of the United States to prohibit
hunting or fishing on any portion of the lands owned by the
United States; or
(3) to abrogate, abridge, affect, modify, supersede or
alter any treaty-reserved right or other right of any Indian
tribe as recognized by any other means, including, but not
limited to, agreements with the United States, Executive
Orders, statutes, and judicial decrees, and by Federal law.

SEC. 4. STATE DEFINED.

For purposes of this Act, the term ``State'' includes the several
States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico,
Guam, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Commonwealth of the
Northern Mariana Islands.




Calendar No. 85

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 339

________________________________________________
 
You could be right…… my memory isn’t always what I wish it was. I’ll say this again. “Never, ever believe anything I say.”

Having admitted that, let me tell another lie. Some time, back in the stories of hunting and tag allocation history, “it seems like” , I remember some outfitter with a home base in Arizona proposing some kind of deal for non-resident tag sales that shocked the hell out the State of Arizona and it’s resident sportsmen. I don’t remember the details but it was a deal that scared Arizona into thinking this Outfitter’s concept was going to have the potential of opening up the entire country to a huge portion of Arizona’s tags to non-resident hunters, thereby preventing Arizona’s residents of many hunting opportunities. It seemed like the two parties pushed it up to some level of a higher court decision before it was over. At any rate, “it seems like” that was when Arizona and a lot of the other Western States started allocation system for a specific ration of tags between residents and non-residents, fear if they stopped selling non-resident tag all together, the Feds or the Courts would step in….. and “possibly” open all State’s tags to every US citizen, and there by overwhelming the residents the opportunity to hunt there State’s big game.

As I writing this my old foggy memory seems to be thinking the name of the Outfitters company was something like U.S.A. Outfitters, and the owner’s name was something like Tillman, Talman, Tammen or something like that.

I apologize it I’m relating an old nightmare BussH, cuz this could be, as you say, total BullSh!t.
Now, tell the Paul Harvey version...with the rest of the story. The most important part of the story that your foggy memory missed or conveniently left out.

Congress did act, they nullified USO and the 9th Circuit decision with S. 339 (see above).

Still want to argue and falsely claim that States are forced to give NR's tags by some federal law or statute? They aren't.

I'm thinking we're done here.
 
Just to drive a stake into this idea that States have to give NR's access to their wildlife.


Congress reacted quickly to and in disfavor of the decision in Conservation Force, Inc. On February 9, 2005, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada introduced Senate Bill 399, "A Bill To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and fishing activities. ' Fourteen Senators from Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming cosponsored the bill.' This bill was a rider amendment to an appropriations bill, the "Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005."' ' On May 11, 2005, Congress passed the "Reaffirmation of State Regulation of Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of 98. See infra Part IV.B.3; Brief for the States of South Dakota, Alaska, Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming as Amicus Curiae Supporting Appellees, Minnesota v. Hoeven, 456 F.3d 826.

As evidenced in the legislative history, the bill passed very quickly with support from the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, whose members include all fifty state government fish and wildlife agencies. The bill asserts that states have the authority to regulate fish and wildlife in any manner the state deems appropriate and the Dormant Commerce Clause does not prohibit such regulation. The purpose of the bill is to reverse the Ninth Circuit's decision in Conservation Force, Inc. and to stop courts from finding discriminatory nonresident hunting regulations unconstitutional based on the Dormant Commerce Clause.
 
My guess us you think its "gay" cuz you coudnt pay the tags, insurance or oil change which is 7k/year. I get it.lol.
You sound like a 12 yr old with an Xbox controller in one hand and googling comebacks in the other. You would probably be surprised how many of us pay more in tax every year than you gross.
 
Now, tell the Paul Harvey version...with the rest of the story. The most important part of the story that your foggy memory missed or conveniently left out.

Congress did act, they nullified USO and the 9th Circuit decision with S. 339 (see above).

Still want to argue and falsely claim that States are forced to give NR's tags by some federal law or statute? They aren't.

I'm thinking we're done here.
Guess not…… I haven’t scrolled down far enough to read but I see you’ve re-thought your “thinking we’re done here”
I'm thinking we're done here.
I’m trying to choke down another “what’s for lunch” platter here, so I’ll back to you in a few minutes. Go another ahead and get yourself another coffee……. while you’re waiting. I’m buying, but you’ll have to float me a few bucks until my Gov. Pension check comes in…………. next week.
 
Guess not…… I haven’t scrolled down far enough to read but I see you’ve re-thought your “thinking we’re done here”

I’m trying to choke down another “what’s for lunch” platter here, so I’ll back to you in a few minutes. Go another ahead and get yourself another coffee……. while you’re waiting. I’m buying, but you’ll have to float me a few bucks until my Gov. Pension check comes in…………. next week.
Be sure to track down those laws that you claim States are forced to issue NR tags...Fantasyland would be a good place to start your research.
 
You do realize people would have a different take on poor 'ol buzzy if he wasn't, well, buzzy.

There's a reason he doesn't post on Rokslide anymore...
Correct, I posted the same facts there. Just like most hunting boards where people make unfounded, untrue, and illogical claims and get called on it...they didn't like their echo chamber disturbed with something as pesky as facts.

Kill the messenger as it were...
 
No State is going to do away with all there nonresident tags. They’d go broke, the residents wouldn’t make up the difference with a raise in their fees!! ???
 
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No State is going to do away with nonresident tags. They’d go broke, the residents wouldn’t make up the difference with a raise in their fees!! ???
Many have...how's that NR moose application looking for you in N. Dakota?
 
Buzzy - your posts on these threads are hilarious :ROFLMAO:

SB 196 - NM 2011 Legislative Session

Terk Injunction Overturned

I thought you were done in 2011, and then you were done again in 2014? Are you done yet, or...?
Stayed pretty consistent over the years, that's a fact.

90-10 split and non transferable landowner tags...just where Wyoming is heading.

Your Residents in New Mexico would have been wise to take my advice in 2011 and again in 2014...you didn't listen then, and you obviously won't now.

Continue to give away your hunting to LO's and Outfitters...not my pig, not my farm. You get what you deserve.

I'll have that last laugh...again. haha.

And no, I haven't applied for anything in New Mexico for a long time, drew 2 tags there. An average pronghorn tag and an oryx. Stopped applying the year after I drew oryx, and only bothered applying for that tag because a friend wanted to do a party application.
 
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Be sure to track down those laws that you claim States are forced to issue NR tags...Fantasyland would be a good place to start your research.

I know you read it but you clearly didn’t let it “register” cuz you wanted to pontificate a little.

I tell all my friends, which are few, I freely admit. I especially remind them, after an afternoon of road hunting or a gathering around an ice hole, on the lake. But, like some others, around this “peculiar” campfire, I don’t get out of Mom’s basement very often. But here we are again, joining in unholy mental discord, I shall take another second to say:

“Never, ever believe a word I say.”

Because…… sometime I intended to bullsh!t and sometimes I do because of my own stupidity. And, because you don’t know, nor do I, when I do or don’t lie, you must always assume it’s a lie.

Now then….. because I’m one here, sett’en around this “campfire”, and I am actually one of few here who “don’t” find you as nearly so contemptuous as you hope, (I miss used don’t for doesn’t, cuz that’s how us ole boys talk to each other, right? Well not all of us, right?) I’ll respond this way.

Thanks for correcting my savage and foolish attempt to mislead a gentleman’s question…… it was the right thing to do and you were so gentle and kind in putting me soundly in my place here on the back side of the 5th Gate. You sharing a thorough review of the poor memory with which I misquoted, it was worthwhile and not unappreciate, to prove me wrong or not. So, thanks for that. It’s always a good thing to correct untruth. Now…… may I have the hide you removed from my ass back?

Now, to correct another misunderstand (a misunderstanding cuz you do not ever, never lie) If you check back at other lies I’ve told, you’ll discover, without mtmuley’s help, that I have said in the past, to paraphrase: Wyoming should manage nonresident/resident tag issues how ever it wants to. I wasn’t worried that Wyoming would ever refuse some non resident tag, until the suggestion was made. As I’ve read yours and other comments that Wyoming, your State, was looking into a 10/90 split, that seemed consistent with other States, to me.

So……. I’ll repeat it again, and add a new lie.

I believe Wyoming has every right to manage its resident and non-resident hunting tags anyway it wants to. But I hope they continue to allow non-resident to buy tags and hunt big game in Wyoming.

Further, I apologize to ortegageno for lying. I doubt he knew he should never ever believe me. My bad.

And, mtmuley, you are half wrong, your information did motivate me to look further. Having the correct name of Taulman USO stimulated me to look further but obviously not as effectively as BuzzH did. So, your assumption was better than my lie but not entirely true either, because I did make an attempt after your post, frail though it was.

By the way mtmukey we’ve never discussed grizzlies like you invited me too. I’m still available but now you know……. never believe anything I say.

Please, everyone, BuzzH, if you’re still here somewhere: never, ever believe anything I say…………
 
I know you read it but you clearly didn’t let it “register” cuz you wanted to pontificate a little.

I tell all my friends, which are few, I freely admit. I especially remind them, after an afternoon of road hunting or a gathering around an ice hole, on the lake. But, like some others, around this “peculiar” campfire, I don’t get out of Mom’s basement very often. But here we are again, joining in unholy mental discord, I shall take another second to say:

“Never, ever believe a word I say.”

Because…… sometime I intended to bullsh!t and sometimes I do because of my own stupidity. And, because you don’t know, nor do I, when I do or don’t lie, you must always assume it’s a lie.

Now then….. because I’m one here, sett’en around this “campfire”, and I am actually one of few here who “don’t” find you as nearly so contemptuous as you hope, (I miss used don’t for doesn’t, cuz that’s how us ole boys talk to each other, right? Well not all of us, right?) I’ll respond this way.

Thanks for correcting my savage and foolish attempt to mislead a gentleman’s question…… it was the right thing to do and you were so gentle and kind in putting me soundly in my place here on the back side of the 5th Gate. You sharing a thorough review of the poor memory with which I misquoted, it was worthwhile and not unappreciate, to prove me wrong or not. So, thanks for that. It’s always a good thing to correct untruth. Now…… may I have the hide you removed from my ass back?

Now, to correct another misunderstand (a misunderstanding cuz you do not ever, never lie) If you check back at other lies I’ve told, you’ll discover, without mtmuley’s help, that I have said in the past, to paraphrase: Wyoming should manage nonresident/resident tag issues how ever it wants to. I wasn’t worried that Wyoming would ever refuse some non resident tag, until the suggestion was made. As I’ve read yours and other comments that Wyoming, your State, was looking into a 10/90 split, that seemed consistent with other States, to me.

So……. I’ll repeat it again, and add a new lie.

I believe Wyoming has every right to manage its resident and non-resident hunting tags anyway it wants to. But I hope they continue to allow non-resident to buy tags and hunt big game in Wyoming.

Further, I apologize to ortegageno for lying. I doubt he knew he should never ever believe me. My bad.

And, mtmuley, you are half wrong, your information did motivate me to look further. Having the correct name of Taulman USO stimulated me to look further but obviously not as effectively as BuzzH did. So, your assumption was better than my lie but not entirely true either, because I did make an attempt after your post, frail though it was.

By the way mtmukey we’ve never discussed grizzlies like you invited me too. I’m still available but now you know……. never believe anything I say.

Please, everyone, BuzzH, if you’re still here somewhere: never, ever believe anything I say…………
Any abridged version of this available?
 
Stayed pretty consistent over the years, that's a fact.

90-10 split and non transferable landowner tags...just where Wyoming is heading.

Your Residents in New Mexico would have been wise to take my advice in 2011 and again in 2014...you didn't listen then, and you obviously won't now.

Continue to give away your hunting to LO's and Outfitters...not my pig, not my farm. You get what you deserve.

I'll have that last laugh...again. haha.

And no, I haven't applied for anything in New Mexico for a long time, drew 2 tags there. An average pronghorn tag and an oryx. Stopped applying the year after I drew oryx, and only bothered applying for that tag because a friend wanted to do a party application.

But I thought you were an influential being on all things legislative?

What happened? The gov'r of NM didn't know who you were? Or probably didn't care since it's not your farm.

If you think suddenly throwing LO tags into the draw will fix everything, your a bigger fool than I knew you already were.

If "NM" won't listen to their hunting constituency, do you really think they're going to listen to a braying jack-ass from WY?
 
States can exclude NRs. And many do in various ways.

0% NR allocation for:
MN moose
ND moose
SD sheep, goat, elk
CA elk is essentially 0% for NR elk except for 1 cow tag.
There are others as well.
That isn’t true about California, it’s one elk tag permit issued to a NR in the state but that one tag can include a cow tag, with that being said if your a NR that knows the system then why in the world are any NR applying for a cow tag, secondly California has proposed a change to increase NR permits to what it is for sheep, so antelope and elk will
Reflect the sheep NR quota and that is up to 10 percent of the overall quota state wide to be able to go to NR party, additionally in California NR are treated as Res when it comes to deer, I would really love for other states to let me be considered a resident in there state draw.
 
Ca. Allows 1 nr sheep tag. I live here.
Not accurate, I have know multiple nr that have drawn in one year. It’s up to ten percent of the state wide tag allocation which is 32 in 22 I believe off if the top of my head so therefore 3 tags can go to the NR pool
 
Wyoming should manage nonresident/resident tag issues how ever it wants to. I wasn’t worried that Wyoming would ever refuse some non resident tag, until the suggestion was made. As I’ve read yours and other comments that Wyoming, your State, was looking into a 10/90 split, that seemed consistent with other States, to me.

So……. I’ll repeat it again, and add a new lie.

I believe Wyoming has every right to manage its resident and non-resident hunting tags anyway it wants to. But I hope they continue to allow non-resident to buy tags and hunt big game in Wyoming.

Except by his own words he doesn't think a state should be able to manage tags however they want to.
 
Not the point that is given
No. It’s my point. I should have zero say or expectations about hunting in a state I’m not a resident in and neither should any one else. If I or you, want to have a say we should choose to live in that state. I’m all for eliminating NR hunting, including my own ability todo so. Wyoming, in my limited understanding is moving in the correct direction. I say that living just hours from its border and easily being able to travel there to hunt. I just wish my state would impose massive restrictions to non residents as well
 
But I thought you were an influential being on all things legislative?

What happened? The gov'r of NM didn't know who you were? Or probably didn't care since it's not your farm.

If you think suddenly throwing LO tags into the draw will fix everything, your a bigger fool than I knew you already were.

If "NM" won't listen to their hunting constituency, do you really think they're going to listen to a braying jack-ass from WY?
I put very little effort into NM, I could care less if the Residents there piss away their tags and hand them out to LO's and Outfitters.

That's your cross to bear, not mine.

We run a tight ship in Wyoming and things go my way. Which is exactly as it should be since I'm a resident of Wyoming.

I don't think anyone said keeping LO and Outfitter tags would "fix everything". The thing the NM Residents were complaining about was a lack of Resident opportunity/tags.

Keeping all tags in the draw, instead of handing out thousands to LO's and Outfitters sure would help solve that particular problem...wouldn't you agree?
 
That isn’t true about California, it’s one elk tag permit issued to a NR in the state but that one tag can include a cow tag, with that being said if your a NR that knows the system then why in the world are any NR applying for a cow tag, secondly California has proposed a change to increase NR permits to what it is for sheep, so antelope and elk will
Reflect the sheep NR quota and that is up to 10 percent of the overall quota state wide to be able to go to NR party, additionally in California NR are treated as Res when it comes to deer, I would really love for other states to let me be considered a resident in there state draw.
Same tag fee's for both NR and Resident deer tags?

Don't think you treat Residents and Non Residents the same...and I'm perfectly fine with that. Your State, your animals, your rules.
 
I put very little effort into NM, I could care less if the Residents there piss away their tags and hand them out to LO's and Outfitters.

That's your cross to bear, not mine.

We run a tight ship in Wyoming and things go my way. Which is exactly as it should be since I'm a resident of Wyoming.

I don't think anyone said keeping LO and Outfitter tags would "fix everything". The thing the NM Residents were complaining about was a lack of Resident opportunity/tags.

Keeping all tags in the draw, instead of handing out thousands to LO's and Outfitters sure would help solve that particular problem...wouldn't you agree?

I've never written the gov'r of WY, but you wrote the gov'r of NM in 2011. You put more effort into NM than you give yourself credit for. As a NR in 2011 and 2014, you sure cared an awful lot about it to declare to the world how you were done with NM.

I bear no cross. I'm not worried about it.

Things go your way? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

You said it would in your own posts on the HuntTalk threads. It would not solve a problem. Hunt opportunity would actually go down because of overcrowding on public. The LO system is a necessary evil, but it does need an overhaul.

You need hooked on phonics my friend...

Nope. Go read your own posts. You complained about NR's getting the raw end of the deal.
 
I've never written the gov'r of WY, but you wrote the gov'r of NM in 2011. You put more effort into NM than you give yourself credit for. As a NR in 2011 and 2014, you sure cared an awful lot about it to declare to the world how you were done with NM.

I bear no cross. I'm not worried about it.

Things go your way? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

You said it would in your own posts on the HuntTalk threads. It would not solve a problem. Hunt opportunity would actually go down because of overcrowding on public. The LO system is a necessary evil, but it does need an overhaul.



Nope. Go read your own posts. You complained about NR's getting the raw end of the deal.
I think its indictment of yourself that you've never written a Governor of Wyoming.

I've written Governors and Legislators all over the U.S. Talked to many in person, they're just people. They also WANT to hear from the people, they get tired of dealing with 600 lobbyists a day.

What I've found most interesting is that all of them, every single one I've talked to, have thanked me for taking the time to comment, even though I let them know up front I'm not a constituent, and don't even live in their state.

Same thing I always get, "well, we don't hear from many people, so it was good to hear from someone".

So, by you doing nothing, you got nothing...other than another raw deal from the State you live in and hate so much you're about to move out of it.

I'm not afraid to talk with anyone...never have been, and I'm pretty good at getting my point across.

You're a real dedicated problem solver...congratulations?
 
Hey buzz. You know anywhere I could get on to shoot coyotes over there next winter? That’s actually one trip I’d really like to make if there’s a rancher that would have me. Can’t imagine non Rez killing thems not welcome
 

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