New Res will have Negative Impact on Big Game

elks96

Long Time Member
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3,793
This issue has popped up here from time to time. Last spring on our bear hunt my son and I watched over 400 elk and 150 deer cross this location as they moved up Battle Creek. It is also an area where several doe and cow will stay to have babies. While I wished more was done to limit ATV use in the immediate area, the reservoir will cause a major interruption to established migrations…

I am glad that the game and fish saw this and knows the importance of that corridor…

 
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I get it and am quite familiar with the project along with the complexities. Reality is we need water and either its stored and used up here or let it flow to California for their continued over use. Good locations are not readily found. Are there no other means to mitigate these concerns as opposed to 'no'? The secondary impacts carry considerable value for Colorado's Moffat county too.
 
I get it and am quite familiar with the project along with the complexities. Reality is we need water and either its stored and used up here or let it flow to California for their continued over use. Good locations are not readily found. Are there no other means to mitigate these concerns as opposed to 'no'? The secondary impacts carry considerable value for Colorado's Moffat county too.
Not on this damn and in this location. Sorry but if I could draw a picture of the best mule deer habitat and migration corridor this spot would be it.

Also this project is only going to make a change for about 35 places in the little snake river valley. It is nothing about municipal water etc. There are some much better location for a reservoir lower on the river that could help Utah and Colorado. But this location and choice is horrible...

Few thing to mention... This location is only one of 3 native cutthroat population that will migrate and spawn up river. Pretty hard to mitigate that. The other supposed benefit would be better fishing and stream quality in the 3 miles down down stream of the damn. Sadly this entire section is owned by a private ranch.

Not to mention when you watch how they use the Savery water and who benefited from that project, it is not any better...

I agree that we should look at projects, but in this case the impact to wildlife and the area is just too much.

Now if you wanted to damn the Little Snake at Cross Mountain and use that, I could see it working and doing minimal impact to wildlife. Just like the other project on the Yampa. I can promise you that you could likely build A reservoir on the Yampa and on the loser little snake, have the combined reservoirs be 3-4 time larger and have 1/2 the impact on wildlife.
 
I can respect that. I know the project on paper not on the ground. Storage is in such need and I hate to see projects get killed because some item (s) is simply not able to be mitigated. Cross Mountain was on the books and is still there as part of the CRSP Act but environmental activist have made any storage on the Yampa impossible. What is logic to the majority is silenced by environmental activism. Finding that compromise is as hearty task.
 
I get it and am quite familiar with the project along with the complexities. Reality is we need water and either its stored and used up here or let it flow to California for their continued over use. Good locations are not readily found. Are there no other means to mitigate these concerns as opposed to 'no'? The secondary impacts carry considerable value for Colorado's Moffat county too.
What's the difference for a Wyoming Resident if we let the water flow out of Wyoming whether its used by a Coloradan in Moffat County or a Californian in Los Angeles County?

If you want to put a dam in Colorado and eliminate your wildlife habitat for your use of the water go for it.

Pretty big ask of Wyoming Residents to ruin our wildlife habitat so Moffat County gets the benefit...or Los Angeles County.
 
What's the difference for a Wyoming Resident if we let the water flow out of Wyoming whether its used by a Coloradan in Moffat County or a Californian in Los Angeles County?

If you want to put a dam in Colorado and eliminate your wildlife habitat for your use of the water go for it.

Pretty big ask of Wyoming Residents to ruin our wildlife habitat so Moffat County gets the benefit...or Los Angeles County.

Then perhaps Wyoming shouldn't ask Colorado for help. Including Moffat County.
 
Not on this damn and in this location. Sorry but if I could draw a picture of the best mule deer habitat and migration corridor this spot would be it.

Also this project is only going to make a change for about 35 places in the little snake river valley. It is nothing about municipal water etc. There are some much better location for a reservoir lower on the river that could help Utah and Colorado. But this location and choice is horrible...

Few thing to mention... This location is only one of 3 native cutthroat population that will migrate and spawn up river. Pretty hard to mitigate that. The other supposed benefit would be better fishing and stream quality in the 3 miles down down stream of the damn. Sadly this entire section is owned by a private ranch.

Not to mention when you watch how they use the Savery water and who benefited from that project, it is not any better...

I agree that we should look at projects, but in this case the impact to wildlife and the area is just too much.

Now if you wanted to damn the Little Snake at Cross Mountain and use that, I could see it working and doing minimal impact to wildlife. Just like the other project on the Yampa. I can promise you that you could likely build A reservoir on the Yampa and on the loser little snake, have the combined reservoirs be 3-4 time larger and have 1/2 the impact on wildlife.
While there are some drawbacks to the reservoir, and I'm not arguing for or against it at this time. There are some holes in that story and a few of the points.

First of all while there are CRCT, the population is less than viable. 45 years ago, they tried doing a ton of work to reset that population and kill the Brooke trout. It was a failure. Same goes for all of those tributaries for the Little Snake (Battle, Roaring, West and North). Currently there are Brooke trout above the proposed dam and the highway that were supposedly wiped out. Now the G&F is using the proposal as a second effort to establish a viable population. It was a failed political happy holistic horse $hit of a project 45 years ago, to be frank.

From the point of the dam, the first private ground that Battle Creek enters is approximately 7.15 miles away. This land belongs to Ladder Livestock (O'Tooles mentioned in the article). Not the 3 miles described above or the 4 miles in the article. Three miles wouldn't even get to the Battle Creek Campground.

The first proposed dam was lower in the Little Snake drainage on the Slater Creek side, but for reason that I can't (before I was born) remember it was shelved for this location.

One benefit of this would also be the land exchange that was proposed for the acreage of the reservoir. Moving significant amounts of intermittent state lands into USFS control and making the UFSF and State lands more uniformly distributed. This would increase managerial discretion and control by both agencies on larger blocks of land. (Some of the State Land would be swapped for USFS around the Forest Edge Ranch)

Some of the discussion that has been left out of this story and even the High Savery discussion is that the action of storage was a tradeoff for the pipeline that carries water to Hog's Park Reservoir on the opposite side of divide. That water is then traded with Cheyenne somehow for water for the City. When that project happened in the (don't quote me on the exact year) 1980's, it was agreed that the state would replace the volume of water with storage opportunities for the Upper Little Snake River.

When they speak of the vertebrate and invertebrate species being decimated during the construction, I find that as a reach. It didn't happen in the High Savery development that took approximately the same amount of time. Also, by developing the dam and establishing the above waters as a CRCT Reserve as they did on the High Savery, would be beneficial to the species, that as of now, is struggling to put it mildly.

The Belvidere Ditch that is mentioned is above the dam and the proposed water levels when its full and would not be impacted unless the reservoir would be above the Highway elevation, which is not proposed. The ditch receives water from Haggerty Creek at all times and there is no proposal to change that operation. One other point they fail to mention is on that ditch there are at least 2 pipe drops to account for slope that do not allow for the fish to migrate for spawning purposes either. I cleaned that ditch once when I was a kid, on foot packing a chainsaw. Again, this point of contention is a stretch to say the least.

Now as far as migration corridors goes, there is no doubt in my mind that all wildlife in the area use this drainage. It has limited access from the east side and is as steep and deep as that country gets. But even the WYG&F has omitted any area above upper Savery Creek is out of their core or established migratory corridors for elk or mule deer. Even the High Savery Dam is directly in one of these corridors.

Just FYI
PY
 
While there are some drawbacks to the reservoir, and I'm not arguing for or against it at this time. There are some holes in that story and a few of the points.

First of all while there are CRCT, the population is less than viable. 45 years ago, they tried doing a ton of work to reset that population and kill the Brooke trout. It was a failure. Same goes for all of those tributaries for the Little Snake (Battle, Roaring, West and North). Currently there are Brooke trout above the proposed dam and the highway that were supposedly wiped out. Now the G&F is using the proposal as a second effort to establish a viable population. It was a failed political happy holistic horse $hit of a project 45 years ago, to be frank.

From the point of the dam, the first private ground that Battle Creek enters is approximately 7.15 miles away. This land belongs to Ladder Livestock (O'Tooles mentioned in the article). Not the 3 miles described above or the 4 miles in the article. Three miles wouldn't even get to the Battle Creek Campground.

The first proposed dam was lower in the Little Snake drainage on the Slater Creek side, but for reason that I can't (before I was born) remember it was shelved for this location.

One benefit of this would also be the land exchange that was proposed for the acreage of the reservoir. Moving significant amounts of intermittent state lands into USFS control and making the UFSF and State lands more uniformly distributed. This would increase managerial discretion and control by both agencies on larger blocks of land. (Some of the State Land would be swapped for USFS around the Forest Edge Ranch)

Some of the discussion that has been left out of this story and even the High Savery discussion is that the action of storage was a tradeoff for the pipeline that carries water to Hog's Park Reservoir on the opposite side of divide. That water is then traded with Cheyenne somehow for water for the City. When that project happened in the (don't quote me on the exact year) 1980's, it was agreed that the state would replace the volume of water with storage opportunities for the Upper Little Snake River.

When they speak of the vertebrate and invertebrate species being decimated during the construction, I find that as a reach. It didn't happen in the High Savery development that took approximately the same amount of time. Also, by developing the dam and establishing the above waters as a CRCT Reserve as they did on the High Savery, would be beneficial to the species, that as of now, is struggling to put it mildly.

The Belvidere Ditch that is mentioned is above the dam and the proposed water levels when its full and would not be impacted unless the reservoir would be above the Highway elevation, which is not proposed. The ditch receives water from Haggerty Creek at all times and there is no proposal to change that operation. One other point they fail to mention is on that ditch there are at least 2 pipe drops to account for slope that do not allow for the fish to migrate for spawning purposes either. I cleaned that ditch once when I was a kid, on foot packing a chainsaw. Again, this point of contention is a stretch to say the least.

Now as far as migration corridors goes, there is no doubt in my mind that all wildlife in the area use this drainage. It has limited access from the east side and is as steep and deep as that country gets. But even the WYG&F has omitted any area above upper Savery Creek is out of their core or established migratory corridors for elk or mule deer. Even the High Savery Dam is directly in one of these corridors.

Just FYI
PY
So where this new location? Everything I have seen is still for the location just above the private.

Again I don't see any real upside for wildlife. No real upside from a management side, and definitely only negative impacts for our already struggling deer herds. Only a few landowners will benefit at a huge cost to the people. and the end result will be increased land values so that the few ranchers left will be bought out by the likes of 3-Forks and the river and area will turn into a rich mans playground with Golf Greens replacing farm land and big fat trout living off feeders. IE the White River in Meeker...
 
The location shown on the article is accurate, but it is well above any private land. I did a quick google earth exercise and it was 7 miles from the dam to the upper end of private property. It is pretty far up the drainage, and I do agree that it is very good habitat, it is well above the transition zones that are high value for spring and fall transitional movement or staging areas for mule deer and elk. I think this is why the G&F doesn't include anything above Savery Creek/Stock Driveway into their migratory models.

As far as land prices I doubt that it will increase much at all. Most of the properties in that area that would have issues with tax increases have already seen them and have agricultural exemptions and many, including the O'Toole's, have already entered into conservation easements. Not even Covid caused price increases in housing in the area. It just is a buffered system in little places like that. Nothing like where we are living now. I'm hoping this last winter will drive a few of them to "better" climates!

Ranchers in the area are either going to sell to people like 3-Fork or they aren't. The addition of the reservoir isn't going to change that. It is too far detached with the closure of the highway all winter and the amount of federal ground surrounding it. High Savery is a prime example of that previously happening and no one has sold to big money ranch since that was developed almost 20 years ago. I imagine it will be very much like Hog's Park on the other side. High use during the summer months and a few people trying to ice fish in the winter.

The cost is huge, and there are many grants and federal/state funds that are going to be used. The real idea is that it was already agreed upon by the decision of the past with the transfer of the water from the west side of the divide to the east side of the divide. I would be more than happy to get rid of the pipeline and all associated infrastructure and not go along with the newly proposed reservoir at all. But that is a whole other rabbit hole!

Here is a link to the proposed land swap between the feds and state.

py
 
My opinion, dams are a ridiculous and unpopular idea in 2023.

Couple that with opposition from the citizens, the huge increase in costs associated with the project, the complexity of the land exchanges, the GF opposing, and the fact that every dam built is a failure long-term.

Stick a fork in this nonsensical idea that really only benefits a small handful of landowners.

I would be shocked to see this project move forward.
 
The location shown on the article is accurate, but it is well above any private land. I did a quick google earth exercise and it was 7 miles from the dam to the upper end of private property. It is pretty far up the drainage, and I do agree that it is very good habitat, it is well above the transition zones that are high value for spring and fall transitional movement or staging areas for mule deer and elk. I think this is why the G&F doesn't include anything above Savery Creek/Stock Driveway into their migratory models.

As far as land prices I doubt that it will increase much at all. Most of the properties in that area that would have issues with tax increases have already seen them and have agricultural exemptions and many, including the O'Toole's, have already entered into conservation easements. Not even Covid caused price increases in housing in the area. It just is a buffered system in little places like that. Nothing like where we are living now. I'm hoping this last winter will drive a few of them to "better" climates!

Ranchers in the area are either going to sell to people like 3-Fork or they aren't. The addition of the reservoir isn't going to change that. It is too far detached with the closure of the highway all winter and the amount of federal ground surrounding it. High Savery is a prime example of that previously happening and no one has sold to big money ranch since that was developed almost 20 years ago. I imagine it will be very much like Hog's Park on the other side. High use during the summer months and a few people trying to ice fish in the winter.

The cost is huge, and there are many grants and federal/state funds that are going to be used. The real idea is that it was already agreed upon by the decision of the past with the transfer of the water from the west side of the divide to the east side of the divide. I would be more than happy to get rid of the pipeline and all associated infrastructure and not go along with the newly proposed reservoir at all. But that is a whole other rabbit hole!

Here is a link to the proposed land swap between the feds and state.

py
Gotcha. I see where the “new” location is. It appears the new location will consume a big chunk of private? American Milling? I would hate to see anything happen to increase use like hog park. The amount of traffic use etc. in the Strawberry and Hog park area is insane. Yes the upper area is less of a concern, but still pretty darn important as there is a good grip of mule deer that cross that area from up by Quartz and Bridger. Not as many as the lower area just above the private.
 

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