Bonus Point Report – 2023 Elk-Pronghorn

If you are a lifetime license holder who has moved out of state, the 10 percent non-resident cap does not apply to you.
One of the craziest things that any state has ever sold. Sell something that F's over many generations of future residents. Until all the current lifetime license holders die off.

But AZ sold that deal and took money for it, and they should fulfill their end of the bargain.

I'm still waiting to see a screenshot that definitively proves that they didn't honor the deal.
 
For sure. I'm not very high on the point structure, but I will for sure be an AZ resident for 6 months in the next couple of years.
I am unsure if they still offer lifetime licenses. I know they did as late as 2014 but thought they finally figured out it was too good of a deal.

Some astute guys pulled the exact trick you are alluding to. A very good investment for college students and others that had plausible AZ addresses to use for long enough to get that lifetime benefit of exemption from the AZ 10% NR cap.

In 2014, a 14-29 yo person could purchase the lifetime hunting license for $666. Today, an NR pays $160/year for a hunting license. Huge logical mistake by AZ GFD.

 
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longranger, I have been looking all over the AZGFD website but haven't been able to find the link you posted. I'm trying to find it for deer last year. How did you get the report?
 
longranger, I have been looking all over the AZGFD website but haven't been able to find the link you posted. I'm trying to find it for deer last year. How did you get the report?
The link I posted isnt up yet. If I told you how I got it id have to kill you. Lol I just emailed the draw department 12 times until they finally gave in and sent it. They said it should post to the website soon. Here is the link for where you'll find all of them. Including last year's deer draw. https://www.azgfd.com/hunting/hunt-draw-and-licenses/big-game-draw/bonus-point-process/
 
I am unsure if they still offer lifetime licenses. I know they did as late as 2014 but thought they finally figured out it was too good of a deal.

Some astute guys pulled the exact trick you are alluding to. A very good investment for college students and others that had plausible AZ addresses to use for long enough to get that lifetime benefit of exemption from the AZ 10% NR cap.

In 2014, a 14-29 yo person could purchase the lifetime hunting license for $666. Today, an NR pays $160/year for a hunting license. Huge logical mistake by AZ GFD.

You're acting like it was some shady under the table deal. Not sure why you'd be so against a state allowing its residents to always come back and hunt. They do still sell lifetime licenses and Iam actually in the process currently to buy my wife and 4 kids their own before we move in a couple months. Best deal ever. The only thing I may agree with on your side would be to require a longer period of residency like 10 years to be allowed to buy one. Show you actuslly have some roots in the state rather than just 6 months but it is what it is.
 
One of the craziest things that any state has ever sold. Sell something that F's over many generations of future residents. Until all the current lifetime license holders die off.

But AZ sold that deal and took money for it, and they should fulfill their end of the bargain.

I'm still waiting to see a screenshot that definitively proves that they didn't honor the deal.
Montezumarchery posted a screenshot proving they screwed up on his app.
 
Montezumarchery posted a screenshot proving they screwed up on his app.
Or was the screenshot from his account, but the error happened under Dad's account? That is how I read it, but I could be wrong.

I totally believe AZ GFD has messed this up, just nice to see screenshots of the draw details page.

And a screenshot of the current license page showing the lifetime license (evidenced by 2099 expiry date).

Many of us have been innocent victims of AZ GFD changing draw code #s from year to year. And then not always fully describing the code # on various reports/screens.
 
We now have proof that us nonresident lifetime license holders did not get put in with the residents in the draw!
Some did. I'm helping a friend that drew a Unit 10 Pronghorn tag on a Lifetime License. The report shows no non-residents in his bonus point pool.
 
Or was the screenshot from his account, but the error happened under Dad's account? That is how I read it, but I could be wrong.

I totally believe AZ GFD has messed this up, just nice to see screenshots of the draw details page.

And a screenshot of the current license page showing the lifetime license (evidenced by 2099 expiry date).

Many of us have been innocent victims of AZ GFD changing draw code #s from year to year. And then not always fully describing the code # on various reports/screens.
Screenshot 2023-05-05 at 1.21.54 PM.png
Screenshot 2023-05-05 at 1.23.15 PM.png

Okay so I talked him into letting me log into his account.

Screenshot 2023-05-04 at 5.55.17 PM.png
 
View attachment 109621View attachment 109622
Okay so I talked him into letting me log into his account.

View attachment 109625
Now THAT is proof. Did your dad have any credit card problems around draw date? New CC issued, fraud, etc.?

So are there two Dads involved here that got shafted out of tags? Or are you two guys brothers? (Montezuma and San Juan)

If this dad gets his 10-early-archery-bull tag out of AZ GFD over this mess, PM me if you want some starters. I harvested an early archery bull in 10 myself. Fun hunt.
 
Now THAT is proof. Did your dad have any credit card problems around draw date? New CC issued, fraud, etc.?

So are there two Dads involved here that got shafted out of tags? Or are you two guys brothers? (Montezuma and San Juan)

If this dad gets his 10-early-archery-bull tag out of AZ GFD over this mess, PM me if you want some starters. I harvested an early archery bull in 10 myself. Fun hunt.
It is my draw app, not my dads
 
I bought a Lifetime Licsense last year before I moved to South Carolina. I only Lived in Arizona for 45 years. I think I deserve it I was 66 when I bought it . It was cheap and I don't feel I should have to pay Non-Res prices as a Senior and 45 years of living there . Anyone that doesn't like this can bl-- me . I think its a great program ,for a State with the best Elk Hunting ,The Kaibab and Strip for Muley's .................................BOB!
 
What's a timely matter, the next elk draw isnt until next January. I'm surprised they post them at all seems to me they could sell them and make some money.

Well, I’d say a timely manner needs to be early enough to cure any error. That means at a minimum early enough to issue tags that were not issued due to error. I would say that curing those issues requires a reasonable amount of notice. The definition of reasonable is subjective, but one could argue that an en expectation that the department issue the draw reports as soon as they are available is a reasonable request, especially given the time hunters often invest to plan and execute hunts.
Really . Who needs it now . I don't ..........................BULL!
 
Now THAT is proof. Did your dad have any credit card problems around draw date? New CC issued, fraud, etc.?

So are there two Dads involved here that got shafted out of tags? Or are you two guys brothers? (Montezuma and San Juan)

If this dad gets his 10-early-archery-bull tag out of AZ GFD over this mess, PM me if you want some starters. I harvested an early archery bull in 10 myself. Fun hunt.
No credit card issues and the bank has stated that there weren't any denied charges.
 
I bought a Lifetime Licsense last year before I moved to South Carolina. I only Lived in Arizona for 45 years. I think I deserve it I was 66 when I bought it . It was cheap and I don't feel I should have to pay Non-Res prices as a Senior and 45 years of living there . Anyone that doesn't like this can bl-- me . I think its a great program ,for a State with the best Elk Hunting ,The Kaibab and Strip for Muley's .................................BOB
Unfortunately for you, you will still be paying NR prices.
Really . Who needs it now . I don't ..........................BULL!
Obviously some needed the draw reports ASAP.
 
Possible that your license isn't flagged as lifetime. Their draw system has some holes in it specific to licenses so they may need to go in and set it up for you. Shouldn't be a big deal.
 
No credit card issues and the bank has stated that there weren't any denied charges.

The exp date on the license of year “2199” from the screenshot would seem to be the lifetime license.

If AZGFD agrees with you that the CC did not decline on CC day, then I think they will be issuing another Unit 10 bull tag to correct this problem.

Far from the first example we have seen of issues like this from AZ GFD. And demonstrates why transparency and immediate posting of these draw reports is important.

If I was an NR with one of those sweet lifetime license deals (as a FORMER AZ resident), I would definitely be QA-ing every draw result from AZ GFD.
 
I bought a Lifetime Licsense last year before I moved to South Carolina. I only Lived in Arizona for 45 years. I think I deserve it I was 66 when I bought it . It was cheap and I don't feel I should have to pay Non-Res prices as a Senior and 45 years of living there . Anyone that doesn't like this can bl-- me . I think its a great program ,for a State with the best Elk Hunting ,The Kaibab and Strip for Muley's .................................BOB!

If I was a former AZ resident with one of these lifetime licenses (and the all-important 10% NR cap exclusion), I would not talk about it. EVER.

I suspect most current AZ residents don’t know that this loophole still exists. AZ residents would be working to get the loophole closed for going forward. All current lifetime license holders might need to die off, but at least there wouldn’t be any new guys buying lifetime licenses just a few days before they move out of Arizona (and stop being a tax base contributor).

Or smart college students or other scammers using “arguably” valid AZ 6 month residency to buy the best deal in the west. Montana has a somewhat similar program, but they have way more animals and they would generally be lower quality tags. AZ residents are losing ram tags, strip tags and many other of the highest quality tags to actual NRs via the Lifetime Licenses carried around by former residents.
 
If I was a former AZ resident with one of these lifetime licenses (and the all-important 10% NR cap exclusion), I would not talk about it. EVER.

I suspect most current AZ residents don’t know that this loophole still exists. AZ residents would be working to get the loophole closed for going forward. All current lifetime license holders might need to die off, but at least there wouldn’t be any new guys buying lifetime licenses just a few days before they move out of Arizona (and stop being a tax base contributor).

Or smart college students or other scammers using “arguably” valid AZ 6 month residency to buy the best deal in the west. Montana has a somewhat similar program, but they have way more animals and they would generally be lower quality tags. AZ residents are losing ram tags, strip tags and many other of the highest quality tags to actual NRs via the Lifetime Licenses carried around by former residents.
Your ignorance of the program is astonishing me! If you do not have a lifetime license and you can afford it, you are not contributing to the future of wildlife in AZ

Screenshot_20230506_114654_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
 
If I was a former AZ resident with one of these lifetime licenses (and the all-important 10% NR cap exclusion), I would not talk about it. EVER.

I suspect most current AZ residents don’t know that this loophole still exists. AZ residents would be working to get the loophole closed for going forward. All current lifetime license holders might need to die off, but at least there wouldn’t be any new guys buying lifetime licenses just a few days before they move out of Arizona (and stop being a tax base contributor).

Or smart college students or other scammers using “arguably” valid AZ 6 month residency to buy the best deal in the west. Montana has a somewhat similar program, but they have way more animals and they would generally be lower quality tags. AZ residents are losing ram tags, strip tags and many other of the highest quality tags to actual NRs via the Lifetime Licenses carried around by former residents.
I think crampy is upset he didn't buy one before he left and now is angry at everyone else smart enough to buy one. It's not a loophole, it's not scummy, it's simply a good deal for az residents. Sorry you missed out.
 
I think crampy is upset he didn't buy one before he left and now is angry at everyone else smart enough to buy one. It's not a loophole, it's not scummy, it's simply a good deal for az residents. Sorry you missed out.
Yes. This has been known, like, forever. Lol

Edit: Best purchase I’ve made. I’ll never leave Arizona, but it sure makes it easy every year not worrying about purchasing a license!
 
If I was a former AZ resident with one of these lifetime licenses (and the all-important 10% NR cap exclusion), I would not talk about it. EVER.

I suspect most current AZ residents don’t know that this loophole still exists. AZ residents would be working to get the loophole closed for going forward. All current lifetime license holders might need to die off, but at least there wouldn’t be any new guys buying lifetime licenses just a few days before they move out of Arizona (and stop being a tax base contributor).

Or smart college students or other scammers using “arguably” valid AZ 6 month residency to buy the best deal in the west. Montana has a somewhat similar program, but they have way more animals and they would generally be lower quality tags. AZ residents are losing ram tags, strip tags and many other of the highest quality tags to actual NRs via the Lifetime Licenses carried around by former residents.
I lived there 45 years Had a business for 25 years Paid way more taxes than most ever will there . I aint ripping anyone out of a tag . And I aint dying off anytime soon.. LOL. I hope I take Your tag....................BULL!
 
So now that everyone is done with the I have a loophole to draw as a res talk.

Can we get to the fun talk? That point creep was way nastier than I expected .
 
The exp date on the license of year “2199” from the screenshot would seem to be the lifetime license.

If AZGFD agrees with you that the CC did not decline on CC day, then I think they will be issuing another Unit 10 bull tag to correct this problem.

Far from the first example we have seen of issues like this from AZ GFD. And demonstrates why transparency and immediate posting of these draw reports is important.

If I was an NR with one of those sweet lifetime license deals (as a FORMER AZ resident), I would definitely be QA-ing every draw result from AZ GFD.
Lifetime licenses are identified by the first two letters of the license not necessarily the expiration date. Any computer programmer with basic skills would be able to write code to include lifetime license holders in the resident draw. If they have a lifetime license and checked the non-resident box then they are charged the NR fees.
I have a lifetime license and reside in AZ and my license begins with LC. I bought my son, who was a resident at the time, a lifetime license when he graduated from college. I had a feeling he might move out of state for his job, and he did. His lifetime license begins with LH.

I hope the people who can prove they were not in the resident pool get a license. G&F needs to get their act together. If they are going to make rules then they need to follow them.
When Amber Munig was there she was great about returning calls and taking time to explain things. I am not sure how her replacement is but I would try to get in contact with her.

Good Luck
 
Lifetime licenses are identified by the first two letters of the license not necessarily the expiration date. Any computer programmer with basic skills would be able to write code to include lifetime license holders in the resident draw. If they have a lifetime license and checked the non-resident box then they are charged the NR fees.
I have a lifetime license and reside in AZ and my license begins with LC. I bought my son, who was a resident at the time, a lifetime license when he graduated from college. I had a feeling he might move out of state for his job, and he did. His lifetime license begins with LH.

I hope the people who can prove they were not in the resident pool get a license. G&F needs to get their act together. If they are going to make rules then they need to follow them.
When Amber Munig was there she was great about returning calls and taking time to explain things. I am not sure how her replacement is but I would try to get in contact with her.

Good Luck
I believe the difference between the two are LC means Lifetime Combo, and the LH means Lifetime Hunting.
 
. It's not a loophole, it's not scummy, it's simply a good deal for az residents.

Ex-residents. They chose to leave AZ. They now live in places like bordering states of NV, UT & NM and are getting resident allocation in those states AND double-dipping on the AZ res allocation

...and Iam actually in the process currently to buy my wife and 4 kids their own before we move in a couple months. Best deal ever.
Fantastic deal. Who wouldn’t want to dip on resident allocations of two great states? I would do it as well. I wouldn’t talk about it though. Because eventually AZ residents might get ex-resident NRs identified on these reports and wake up to how many resident tags are going to ex-resident NRs with the double dipping Lifetime License.
 
I should buy a lifetime license and move to NM. About as many Libtards there as are now in East California so I might as well take advantage of the resident hunting in NM too!
 
Crampy, you do realize there are ACTUAL loopholes worthy of outrage but the lifetime license isn't one of them.

Someday dig into the point guard group app bonus point scam. Lots of people and guides bonusing themselves and clients up on people called "hunters" that have never and will never hunt for anything other than a tv remote. I personally attended a meeting before point guard was implemented and stated concerns with group apps and AZGFD proceeded to move forward with implementation and has actually expanded the benefits of this gray market tag circus. Even better, many tags surrendered to point guard approved non profits are run by the guys that advocated for a big tag expo with hundreds of public tags for auction. As a NR, you should be outraged that AZGFD isn't protecting your 5% bonus pool tag allocation against this clusteflock. And as a resident I wonder how tightly controlled the redistribution of so many surrendered tags align with the resident/nonresident tag allocation.

Want another outrage point? How about the standards required to obtain a crossbow permit in Arizona? Lots of fellow non-residents pulling archery bull tags with no interest or skill with a bow. Just a letter from their "doctor"and a bull tag pulled with some point whores bonus points.

How about another one.....the new hunter education bonus point that requires no education beyond the ability to write a check to AZGFD. Do you feel safer? I dont.

How about a hunt mentor program that doesn't require the person that surrendered the tag to be in the field with the kid being mentored? How many grandmothers are at the nail salon while little Johnny is being mentored 200 miles away.

How about the new " LIMiITED ENTRY HUNTS" offered by AZGFD. Limited entry is an Utah term for special hunts that are premium priced according to subjective and exclusionary criteria. Kind of an initial blow to the equitable public draw way Arizona has distributed tags historically. There was a reason they used this description and there is no question weasels are lobbying AZGFD for public tag carveouts for people who are willing to pay more than most can for Arizonas tags. Bad deal that could lay the foundation for premium pricing of antlered tags that was universally rejected by hunters a few years ago when AZGFD had public input meetings about it.

So bottom line, I agree the residency requirement for lifetime licenses should be increased from 6 months to longer but lifetime licenses aren't a loophole or a scam. They are simply a good deal for people that can afford them and a bad deal for those that obtain them under false pretenses and get prosecuted for it which does happen.

If you want to draw a tag, focusing on limiting the group app tags loophole would be a better use of your energy. If you don't believe me take a drive through unit 6A during the early archery hunt and observe all the swaggy camps and UTVs with crossbows in the back. I bet there are guides offering loaner crossbows to their "archery" clients when the client also uses their bonus point donor matchmaker program to obtain their tag.

Happy Hunting
 
Crampy, you do realize there are ACTUAL loopholes worthy of outrage but the lifetime license isn't one of them.

Someday dig into the point guard group app bonus point scam. Lots of people and guides bonusing themselves and clients up on people called "hunters" that have never and will never hunt for anything other than a tv remote. I personally attended a meeting before point guard was implemented and stated concerns with group apps and AZGFD proceeded to move forward with implementation and has actually expanded the benefits of this gray market tag circus. Even better, many tags surrendered to point guard approved non profits are run by the guys that advocated for a big tag expo with hundreds of public tags for auction. As a NR, you should be outraged that AZGFD isn't protecting your 5% bonus pool tag allocation against this clusteflock. And as a resident I wonder how tightly controlled the redistribution of so many surrendered tags align with the resident/nonresident tag allocation.

Want another outrage point? How about the standards required to obtain a crossbow permit in Arizona? Lots of fellow non-residents pulling archery bull tags with no interest or skill with a bow. Just a letter from their "doctor"and a bull tag pulled with some point whores bonus points.

How about another one.....the new hunter education bonus point that requires no education beyond the ability to write a check to AZGFD. Do you feel safer? I dont.

How about a hunt mentor program that doesn't require the person that surrendered the tag to be in the field with the kid being mentored? How many grandmothers are at the nail salon while little Johnny is being mentored 200 miles away.

How about the new " LIMiITED ENTRY HUNTS" offered by AZGFD. Limited entry is an Utah term for special hunts that are premium priced according to subjective and exclusionary criteria. Kind of an initial blow to the equitable public draw way Arizona has distributed tags historically. There was a reason they used this description and there is no question weasels are lobbying AZGFD for public tag carveouts for people who are willing to pay more than most can for Arizonas tags. Bad deal that could lay the foundation for premium pricing of antlered tags that was universally rejected by hunters a few years ago when AZGFD had public input meetings about it.

So bottom line, I agree the residency requirement for lifetime licenses should be increased from 6 months to longer but lifetime licenses aren't a loophole or a scam. They are simply a good deal for people that can afford them and a bad deal for those that obtain them under false pretenses and get prosecuted for it which does happen.

If you want to draw a tag, focusing on limiting the group app tags loophole would be a better use of your energy. If you don't believe me take a drive through unit 6A during the early archery hunt and observe all the swaggy camps and UTVs with crossbows in the back. I bet there are guides offering loaner crossbows to their "archery" clients when the client also uses their bonus point donor matchmaker program to obtain their tag.

Happy Hunting
Exactly, You hit it on the spot. I knew this was happening and Every time I whine about on the Coues Site the Morons come after me. LOL.....................BULL!
 
Crampy, you do realize there are ACTUAL loopholes worthy of outrage but the lifetime license isn't one of them.

Someday dig into the point guard group app bonus point scam. Lots of people and guides bonusing themselves and clients up on people called "hunters" that have never and will never hunt for anything other than a tv remote. I personally attended a meeting before point guard was implemented and stated concerns with group apps and AZGFD proceeded to move forward with implementation and has actually expanded the benefits of this gray market tag circus. Even better, many tags surrendered to point guard approved non profits are run by the guys that advocated for a big tag expo with hundreds of public tags for auction. As a NR, you should be outraged that AZGFD isn't protecting your 5% bonus pool tag allocation against this clusteflock. And as a resident I wonder how tightly controlled the redistribution of so many surrendered tags align with the resident/nonresident tag allocation.

Want another outrage point? How about the standards required to obtain a crossbow permit in Arizona? Lots of fellow non-residents pulling archery bull tags with no interest or skill with a bow. Just a letter from their "doctor"and a bull tag pulled with some point whores bonus points.

How about another one.....the new hunter education bonus point that requires no education beyond the ability to write a check to AZGFD. Do you feel safer? I dont.

How about a hunt mentor program that doesn't require the person that surrendered the tag to be in the field with the kid being mentored? How many grandmothers are at the nail salon while little Johnny is being mentored 200 miles away.

How about the new " LIMiITED ENTRY HUNTS" offered by AZGFD. Limited entry is an Utah term for special hunts that are premium priced according to subjective and exclusionary criteria. Kind of an initial blow to the equitable public draw way Arizona has distributed tags historically. There was a reason they used this description and there is no question weasels are lobbying AZGFD for public tag carveouts for people who are willing to pay more than most can for Arizonas tags. Bad deal that could lay the foundation for premium pricing of antlered tags that was universally rejected by hunters a few years ago when AZGFD had public input meetings about it.

So bottom line, I agree the residency requirement for lifetime licenses should be increased from 6 months to longer but lifetime licenses aren't a loophole or a scam. They are simply a good deal for people that can afford them and a bad deal for those that obtain them under false pretenses and get prosecuted for it which does happen.

If you want to draw a tag, focusing on limiting the group app tags loophole would be a better use of your energy. If you don't believe me take a drive through unit 6A during the early archery hunt and observe all the swaggy camps and UTVs with crossbows in the back. I bet there are guides offering loaner crossbows to their "archery" clients when the client also uses their bonus point donor matchmaker program to obtain their tag.

Happy Hunting
AZGFD definitely leads the way in making $ without improving habitat or hunting opportunity. If G&F stopped all the things on your list, how much money do you think they would lose? They figured out a long time ago with such a limited resource they couldn't fund their department and pet projects by just selling tags and licenses. So, they figured out people will pay for other things and they might as well may $ off of it. Sorry, but no way they are stopping.
 
AZGFD definitely leads the way in making $ without improving habitat or hunting opportunity. If G&F stopped all the things on your list, how much money do you think they would lose? They figured out a long time ago with such a limited resource they couldn't fund their department and pet projects by just selling tags and licenses. So, they figured out people will pay for other things and they might as well may $ off of it. Sorry, but no way they are stopping.
I'm not going to let you jump Idaho on that. 30 years of auction tags and we have fewer sheep permits now than then.
 
AZGFD definitely leads the way in making $ without improving habitat or hunting opportunity. If G&F stopped all the things on your list, how much money do you think they would lose? They figured out a long time ago with such a limited resource they couldn't fund their department and pet projects by just selling tags and licenses. So, they figured out people will pay for other things and they might as well may $ off of it. Sorry, but no way they are stopping.
I don't disagree with most of what you say however I disagree with you that these things cannot be stopped. When the expo idea was being pushed many years ago there were people saying the proponents were too well financed to stop and the idea was defeated. When game camera regulation was initially discussed it was suggested outfitters would group up and defeat it and camera regulation still happened. In both cases the negative impacts of unregulated cameras and sale of wildlife information and lost opportunities from tags stolen from the public draw were clear enough the public got on the right side of it and put an end to it.

I keep up on rule changes and have for many years. I don't think guys that buy lifetime licenses or apply in multiple states are evil. I do think they are generally well financed and often at the tail end of their hunting career. If a guy does his homework and makes good decisions about where HE applies IN THE PUBLIC DRAW that is playing the game smart. The issue I have is with proxy applicants (also known as non-hunting point whores) that stand in line to ensure the same small list of guys hunt good units every year while other hunters get further pushed to the back of the line or die before they ever get to hunt.

I understand why the corporate weasels lobby for a bigger slice of the public draw tags and for tag free for all's like the point guard group app scam. It is about control. Control of where the very best tags are going (through designated non profits) and the basic economics of scarcity. When you limit supply on one side (public tags) you can drive up the tag prices in the gray markets.

The commercial interest weasels pushing for these proxy applicant schemes will justify their continued expansion by citing reduced department budgets and inflation.concerns but the end game is to shift opportunity from the less profitable public draw hunters to their more profitable gray market hunters. That plan works great if success is measured by how many trophies are killed by baby boomers in the next 10 years. It doesn't make sense if the idea is to keep hunting accessible to the masses for the long haul. Our kids aren't gonna give two microschits about hunting unless they get to do it a few times and learn the skills.

My grandfathers, uncles, and father did a lot of hunting in Arizona. They were/are good decent guys and pretty good hunters as well. They didn't need to keep up on every scheme and wrinkle in order to ensure they got their fair shake at hunt opportunity. They, like like of guys that read these forums would look at the draw reports and make conclusions assuming the field was level. In reality the draw reports only account for people coming through the front door. The Arizona proxy applicant problems ensure there is a wide open back door where records are light and some guys stroll into great tags every year.

Arizona has lots of public land but limited habitat for wildlife and is the eighth most populous state in the US. Open back doors reflect unsophisticated or deliberately crooked stewards of our public resources. Our Commissioners need to call out these trashy money grabs, they not only reflect poor understanding of the states hunt assets but undermine the foundation of hunting in Arizona.

Require all applicants to surrender their tags using point guard on a group application or at least limit the bonus up potential to the lowest point holder on the group app. Require the person that signed over a mentor tag to be within 500 yards of a hunter in the field. Require more explicit permanent disability standards and greater lead time to obtain cross bow permits in Arizona. keep the hunter education points for those with a hunter education. And most of all, be really selective when some east coast business school graduate at AZGFD proposes a scheme to generate additional revenue that negatively impacts hunt opportunity for the majority to benefit a minority group willing to pay a couple more bucks. Raise tag prices if needed and keep the field level if needed.
 
I’ve been for the elimination of party apps for many years. At a minimum, now with point guard, if one member of the party app turns in their tag, then everyone on that app has to turn in their tag.
 
I’ve been for the elimination of party apps for many years. At a minimum, now with point guard, if one member of the party app turns in their tag, then everyone on that app has to turn in their tag.
I think a better plan would be if the person who turns in a tag using point guard is the highest point holder on the application, then just that person does not get points back.
 
I think a better plan would be if the person who turns in a tag using point guard is the highest point holder on the application, then just that person does not get points back.
Why? All of the points were used in aggregate, therefore all of the points should reset to zero, or all of the tags get turned back in.
 
Why? All of the points were used in aggregate, therefore all of the points should reset to zero, or all of the tags get turned back in.
The entire reason why G&F created point guard was because they knew that sometimes people can't go on their hunt for one reason or another. Before point guard, I mistakenly drew a tag that could easily be drawn with 1-2 points. I had 7 points and entered the wrong number on my application. Had I had point guard, I could have turned tag in but instead I used 7 points on a 1-2 point unit. My sister tore the ligaments in her knee and had to have surgery the Tuesday before her 5B rifle antelope hunt. She drew with 17 points and didn't even get to go on her hunt. I have a friend whose mother passed away just before his hunt and thankfully he had point guard and was able to turn in his tag in take care of family affairs. Point guard has some valid uses and I am thankful that it is available. I would bet that all the people that don't like point guard buy it themselves.

The reason I like my suggestion is it still allows people to use point guard but they can only use it one time if they are the high point holder on an application with more than one applicant. Why punish everyone in a group of applicants if someone can't go and wants to use their point guard that they bought and paid for?

As far as point farming, that has been going on as long as there have been points. At least with my idea, they can't use their points more than once.
 
The entire reason why G&F created point guard was because they knew that sometimes people can't go on their hunt for one reason or another. Before point guard, I mistakenly drew a tag that could easily be drawn with 1-2 points. I had 7 points and entered the wrong number on my application. Had I had point guard, I could have turned tag in but instead I used 7 points on a 1-2 point unit. My sister tore the ligaments in her knee and had to have surgery the Tuesday before her 5B rifle antelope hunt. She drew with 17 points and didn't even get to go on her hunt. I have a friend whose mother passed away just before his hunt and thankfully he had point guard and was able to turn in his tag in take care of family affairs. Point guard has some valid uses and I am thankful that it is available. I would bet that all the people that don't like point guard buy it themselves.

The reason I like my suggestion is it still allows people to use point guard but they can only use it one time if they are the high point holder on an application with more than one applicant. Why punish everyone in a group of applicants if someone can't go and wants to use their point guard that they bought and paid for?

As far as point farming, that has been going on as long as there have been points. At least with my idea, they can't use their points more than once.
Because they applied as a group. It's either a group or it isn't. None of your other anecdotes relate to this issue. I'm ok with point guard, but if you apply as a group you're a group. One draws all draw, one turns in a tag all turn in a tag, you can have the tag or the points, but none of this mix and match bullsh1t.
 
And that's fine to disagree, but it opens the door to abuse and tilts the game to those who can afford point whores to help them up the ladder. This abuse isn't fair to the average hunter who can't afford to pay for his wife, sister, aunt, and grandma to accumulate points on his behalf every year. And to the one hunter in a group of 4 who draw a unit 10 bull tag the same year he happens to tear his ACL; sorry life's not fair, hunt with a limp or everyone can back out and go next year.
 
Point guard has some value for situations beyond someone's control. But if you mistakenly put the wrong hunt number on an app, too bad, pay better attention next time. If you draw a prime tag and we don't get monsoons and you decide you don't want to hunt, too bad. I also agree that group apps should have everybody turn in the tag if one does. The current system can only be sustained for so long. The use of point guard should be specific and limited.
 
Point guard has some value for situations beyond someone's control. But if you mistakenly put the wrong hunt number on an app, too bad, pay better attention next time. If you draw a prime tag and we don't get monsoons and you decide you don't want to hunt, too bad. I also agree that group apps should have everybody turn in the tag if one does. The current system can only be sustained for so long. The use of point guard should be specific and limited.
If a group fills out the wrong number then the whole group will draw the wrong tag. And I disagree that weather should be a valid reason to turn in the tag. That's akin to saying you're guaranteed a trophy of a certain caliber. So yes, you draw bad weather, too bad....
 
The entire reason why G&F created point guard was because they knew that sometimes people can't go on their hunt for one reason or another. Before point guard, I mistakenly drew a tag that could easily be drawn with 1-2 points. I had 7 points and entered the wrong number on my application. Had I had point guard, I could have turned tag in but instead I used 7 points on a 1-2 point unit. My sister tore the ligaments in her knee and had to have surgery the Tuesday before her 5B rifle antelope hunt. She drew with 17 points and didn't even get to go on her hunt. I have a friend whose mother passed away just before his hunt and thankfully he had point guard and was able to turn in his tag in take care of family affairs. Point guard has some valid uses and I am thankful that it is available. I would bet that all the people that don't like point guard buy it themselves.

The reason I like my suggestion is it still allows people to use point guard but they can only use it one time if they are the high point holder on an application with more than one applicant. Why punish everyone in a group of applicants if someone can't go and wants to use their point guard that they bought and paid for?

As far as point farming, that has been going on as long as there have been points. At least with my idea, they can't use their points more than once.
I agree that PG is good. Sometimes life gets western, and things beyond our control happen. That’s legit.

What I don’t like now is how it’s being whored out in the party apps.
 
Yeah, if we just changed party apps it could easily solve this. Instead of averaging points, just use the lowest number of any applicant. Problem solved. Points can no longer be used as currency to exchange for guiding, local knowledge, access etc. No more reason to use grandma as a point mule.
 
I understand where some of you are coming from. But sharing points with your children is great in my opinion. You bought the points. How come people are all upset with the point sharing. I think the guiding, posses, and finders fees is a WAY BIGGER issue IMO. Take the commercialization and trigger pullers out of the equation and put the hunt back into hunting.
 
I may have a different opinion than some, but it is OK if we disagree.
IMO:

1) Point sharing is a good idea. It allows us to recruit others.
And I'd gladly share my points to get a friend or relative along for a hunt.

2) Lifetime licenses are a good idea. Paying NR tag costs is a reasonable compromise for being able to draw R tags as a NR. I have a NR license. Just so happens I still live in the state though.

3) Point Guard is a good idea. And if one party member breaks a leg, the others shouldn't be required to suffer.

4) Random tags are a good idea in high demand hunts. It gives everyone a chance.

Each state has it's own rules, and if we want to play the game, we have to play by their rules. Yes, some people find and use loopholes, but states should focus on eliminating the loopholes/bad actors instead of punishing all hunters.
 
Don't be silly, You know what people are doing and cheating others out of hunts. Mom , don't hunt by now She aint gonna and Gramma too!..........................BULL
I know several older women that hunt. It's ignorant to claim older women don't hunt or buy points to hunt.
 
Crampy, you do realize there are ACTUAL loopholes worthy of outrage but the lifetime license isn't one of them.

Someday dig into the point guard group app bonus point scam. Lots of people and guides bonusing themselves and clients up on people called "hunters" that have never and will never hunt for anything other than a tv remote. I personally attended a meeting before point guard was implemented and stated concerns with group apps and AZGFD proceeded to move forward with implementation and has actually expanded the benefits of this gray market tag circus. Even better, many tags surrendered to point guard approved non profits are run by the guys that advocated for a big tag expo with hundreds of public tags for auction. As a NR, you should be outraged that AZGFD isn't protecting your 5% bonus pool tag allocation against this clusteflock. And as a resident I wonder how tightly controlled the redistribution of so many surrendered tags align with the resident/nonresident tag allocation.

Want another outrage point? How about the standards required to obtain a crossbow permit in Arizona? Lots of fellow non-residents pulling archery bull tags with no interest or skill with a bow. Just a letter from their "doctor"and a bull tag pulled with some point whores bonus points.

How about another one.....the new hunter education bonus point that requires no education beyond the ability to write a check to AZGFD. Do you feel safer? I dont.

How about a hunt mentor program that doesn't require the person that surrendered the tag to be in the field with the kid being mentored? How many grandmothers are at the nail salon while little Johnny is being mentored 200 miles away.

How about the new " LIMiITED ENTRY HUNTS" offered by AZGFD. Limited entry is an Utah term for special hunts that are premium priced according to subjective and exclusionary criteria. Kind of an initial blow to the equitable public draw way Arizona has distributed tags historically. There was a reason they used this description and there is no question weasels are lobbying AZGFD for public tag carveouts for people who are willing to pay more than most can for Arizonas tags. Bad deal that could lay the foundation for premium pricing of antlered tags that was universally rejected by hunters a few years ago when AZGFD had public input meetings about it.

So bottom line, I agree the residency requirement for lifetime licenses should be increased from 6 months to longer but lifetime licenses aren't a loophole or a scam. They are simply a good deal for people that can afford them and a bad deal for those that obtain them under false pretenses and get prosecuted for it which does happen.

If you want to draw a tag, focusing on limiting the group app tags loophole would be a better use of your energy. If you don't believe me take a drive through unit 6A during the early archery hunt and observe all the swaggy camps and UTVs with crossbows in the back. I bet there are guides offering loaner crossbows to their "archery" clients when the client also uses their bonus point donor matchmaker program to obtain their tag.

Happy Hunting
You misspoke here, there is no "new hunter education point". The course is called Ethically Hunting Arizona (EHA) and does NOT convey hunter education credentials to the graduate. It's a opportunity to secure an education point for those who do not need hunter education credentials. Residents pay $150, NR pay $300. An applicant can only possess one education point, either a Hunter Education Bonus Point or the EHA Education Bonus Point.
 
I know several older women that hunt. It's ignorant to claim older women don't hunt or buy points to hunt.
Its ignorant to post that . Very Few Grandma's actually hunt . Like their gonna climb hills and get around good .I know some do but I bet there's way more that get used for points. Dumb Comment . You must be offended cause your Guilty. LOL.......................BULL
 
Its ignorant to post that . Very Few Grandma's actually hunt . Like their gonna climb hills and get around good .I know some do but I bet there's way more that get used for points. Dumb Comment . You must be offended cause your Guilty. LOL.......................BULL
Guilty as charged. I've got every female in the family up to grandma's and 2nd cousins applying. If you can't afford to play the game it isn't my problem. Sorry you spent all your extra cash on a guide to shoot a 290 bull on an early rifle bull hunt lol
 
You misspoke here, there is no "new hunter education point". The course is called Ethically Hunting Arizona (EHA) and does NOT convey hunter education credentials to the graduate. It's an opportunity to secure an education point for those who do not need hunter education credentials. Residents pay $150, NR pay $300. An applicant can only possess one education point, either a Hunter Education Bonus Point or the EHA Education Bonus Point.
I accidentally fat fingered the like oops.

I didn't misspeak, the value proposition is the permanent bonus point. That point used to require a hunter education class which was free other than the time spent to sit in the class which was significant once the field day was added. Just like other schemes the AZGFD has come up with a way to allow those willing to spend more money to pay less time and the side effect is less trained hunters in the field and incrementally lost opportunity for draw hunters.

When points are used as currency and AZGFD allows them to be obtained this easily it doesn't speak to the integrity of the draw process very well. What about the price of kids licenses for residents and non residents, how many of those points are being used for point guard group applications.

Yes with enough money and time you could apply every family member and bonus up with point guard every year. Send your buddies on mentoring missions with your grandkids. Apply for every LIMITED ENTRY raffle hosted by some non-profit run by some retired hunt industry insider. My view is that there are too many people that want tags compared to the number of tags that are available. This inconvenient truth either speaks to to ignorance of the people in leadership approving these programs or to their integrity if they honestly think this is a good idea.

Restaurants used to think door dash and grub hub were great until the fees to the restaurants and the customers slowly increased and put many out of business. Just like when I go to a restaurant, I want quality at an honest and transparent price. All these back door point schemes equate to a tax you have to pay to ensure you are competitive in the draw. i would rather pay incrementally more for a stamp or the tag than have to work around these loopholes.

Points should be for those people that PERSONALLY sat out a year or contributed to a safer hunt environment. All of these schemes that allow points to be transferred by proxy applicants are shady and undermine confidence in the Arizona game department.
 
Guilty as charged. I've got every female in the family up to grandma's and 2nd cousins applying. If you can't afford to play the game it isn't my problem. Sorry you spent all your extra cash on a guide to shoot a 290 bull on an early rifle bull hunt lol
Lame Reply from a lamo! Have fun using grandmas points . At least I don't cheat . Drink on Boy!
 
NR with lifetime license claiming the department called him yesterday and is mailing a tag because he was falsely under the 10% cap.

From coueswhitetail.com

 
Huh… another AZ GFD draw mess up.

I hope all of you EX-residents (AZ) get the tags from the resident pool that you qualify for because of the double dipping lifetime license design. I hope you also drew resident tags in your own state this year (the single dip most people have to settle for).

I wonder if this will lead to a comprehensive report on how many AZ resident tags are being snagged by EX-residents every year.
 
Huh… another AZ GFD draw mess up.

I hope all of you EX-residents (AZ) get the tags from the resident pool that you qualify for because of the double dipping lifetime license design. I hope you also drew resident tags in your own state this year (the single dip most people have to settle for).

I wonder if this will lead to a comprehensive report on how many AZ resident tags are being snagged by EX-residents every year.
Send an information request and give em hell.
 
Hey, atleast I don't have to look at a small elk on my wall every day. If you even kept it.
You must be the States best hunter . I've come home empty on trophy hunts before looking for the big boys . so I shot one cause I got conned by an outfitter. I wanted some meat. At least I put my Bio out there ,not afraid for people to know who I am unlike some people that hide behind the curtain......................BULL!
 
They (azgfd) made a mistake... and as soon as it was brought to their attention, they did the right thing and issued the tags.
I was not able to get them to tell me last week how big the issue was, but I could only assume it was all of us lifetime license holding nonresidents.

Big thanks to longranger for getting those reports out to us before they had been formally released.
 
Nice work.

If I was an EX-resident with a lifetime license, I would be going over the last 5-10 years of these reports to look for more resident tags that should have gone my way.

AZ GFD clearly has a sketchy process here and I doubt that sketchiness just started in 2023.
 
So how are the lifetime license holders bonus points listed in the bonus point report? Under resident or nonresident?
If they’re in the resident pool they should be listed there, right. It shouldn’t matter if they’re in state or not.
 
So how are the lifetime license holders bonus points listed in the bonus point report? Under resident or nonresident?
If they’re in the resident pool they should be listed there, right. It shouldn’t matter if they’re in state or not.
I always wondered that myself... until this year. The gals in the draw office said that I was listed in the non-resident column.
That makes sense though, because all 4 residents at 18 points that applied for the 3c archery bull hunt drew in the bonus pass... I clearly wasn't one of them!
 
I always wondered that myself... until this year. The gals in the draw office said that I was listed in the non-resident column.
That makes sense though, because all 4 residents at 18 points that applied for the 3c archery bull hunt drew in the bonus pass... I clearly wasn't one of them!
Glad you weren’t cheated out of your tag. Best of luck with the hunt!

Thanks for answering my question.
 
When I put in for Elk this year I was looking at all my Arizona points and my Deer points didn’t look right. You can look at your apps back to 2014 I believe on the website, and it looked like they did not give me a Deer Point One year.I called them and they looked into it and saw that they screwed up so they corrected it and gave me my point for that year. That’s was my fault for not catching it sooner but Arizona is a state you really need to keep a close eye on. That one point is huge because I’m one under max.
 
The bummer is that any lifetime license holder who was denied a random tag because of the 10% cap won’t be detectable via the reports.

Also, I wish they would close the group app loopholes. I hate applying every family member I know 3x per year. It’s damn expensive and time consuming. But it’s the game they setup.

With matching PR dollars at stake for every license sold I don’t see them changing the process. They know the deal, and they are happy to be on the receiving end of it.
 
How is it that there can possibly be an error in the issuance of tags and points? Isn't this a computer system? Or is it a bunch of DMV clerks trying to get the job done manually? If this system is an example of G&F stewardship public funds, I don't want to know about the rest of their budget and expenditures. My head would explode.
 
How is it that there can possibly be an error in the issuance of tags and points? Isn't this a computer system? Or is it a bunch of DMV clerks trying to get the job done manually? If this system is an example of G&F stewardship public funds, I don't want to know about the rest of their budget and expenditures. My head would explode.
It is humans manually entering lines of code... there are errors, and it is how azgfd handles the errors to correct the issues caused by those errors that matters in the end... Ai has not taken over yet! THANK GOD!
 
It is humans manually entering lines of code... there are errors, and it is how azgfd handles the errors to correct the issues caused by those errors that matters in the end... Ai has not taken over yet! THANK GOD!
Uh no. It shouldn't be. The applicant enters the data online. There are no paper applications needing to go through data entry. A G&F employee should not be touching anything to do with the draw other than stuffing tags into envelopes. I built software systems for a living for many years. Impossible for me to fathom having an application system for collecting data from the public only to have clerks keying in the information into a separate draw system. If that is the case, some heads need to roll.
 
Humans enter the lines of code to develop the software used in the draw! Nobody at azgfd touched anything!

2 things got left out this year... all licenses than begin with Lc and all licenses that begin with Lh with the non-resident box checked are not subject to the 10% non-resident cap.
 
I just feel bad for the non-resident lifetime license holders that lost out in the random... but maybe that part of the draw was correct (which I doubt)
 
Uh no. It shouldn't be. The applicant enters the data online. There are no paper applications needing to go through data entry. A G&F employee should not be touching anything to do with the draw other than stuffing tags into envelopes. I built software systems for a living for many years. Impossible for me to fathom having an application system for collecting data from the public only to have clerks keying in the information into a separate draw system. If that is the case, some heads need to roll.

AZ hasn’t updated their draw software for over a decade. They’ve patched it with the portal but even that isn’t linked to the app database real-time. Add in changes to the app process and you end up where they are.
 
I just feel bad for the non-resident lifetime license holders that lost out in the random... but maybe that part of the draw was correct (which I doubt)

Correct, the reports will only allow the Ex-residents to identify themselves if they were shafted in the 20% First pass (preference pass).

But won’t AZ GFD be reviewing their logs to identify the bigger group that were shafted in the 80% Second pass (“random” pass)????

Any legitimate piece of software would write all the events to a LOG file. They can just “Grep” (search) the log file for all the events where an Ex-resident with lifetime license drew in the random pass, but was inappropriately 10% capped. Until they’ve done this, AZ GFD hasn’t made you all whole.

I’d make sure AZ GFD grepped the LOG files from past draws also.
 
G&F could find out the people who should have gotten drawn in the 80% random draw by looking at their lowest random number. All they need to do is look at the 1st & last random number in the 80% pass for each hunt number. Compare it to all the NR's with lifetime licenses beginning with LC & LH random numbers. If these NR numbers fall between the first and last number that was used to draw a tag, then they should be issued a tag.

I haven't written code for a living in more than 30 years but any programmer with some logic and skills could do this. It's more of a query than anything.
 
This thread is being discussed some on coues whitetail. It seems everything I've heard so far is people like myself and Sanjuans dad and people that have spoken up over on CW everyone that got left out on the draw had 18 points. Maybe it didn't effect any other point totals?
 
This thread is being discussed some on coues whitetail. It seems everything I've heard so far is people like myself and Sanjuans dad and people that have spoken up over on CW everyone that got left out on the draw had 18 points. Maybe it didn't effect any other point totals?
I saw one that said he had 16 points that got a unit 9 archery tag after the fact. Would be really strange if just one point group was affected. I'm quite certain there is human interaction between when people submit apps and when they hit the system. Used to be within 24 hours your app showed on the portal after applying. Now it randomly appears anywhere from 2 days to a week. I've applied several people at the same time and their apps appear at random times through the week. Makes me believe some poor guy somewhere is having to manually do something which is insane in today's day and age. Azgfd just continues to ignore that the draw needs some help and refuses to do any sort of audit when when there's obvious problems like this. Hopefully this is enough to make someone start looking into things.
 
Montana and Arizona in a competition for most incompetent. Who will come out on top?
 
Montana and Arizona in a competition for most incompetent. Who will come out on top?
With AZ's system you can at least see if their incompetent by looking at the draw reports. In NV, if you don't draw you'll never know if the system is screwed up or if you just didn't get a low number.
 
They have to find you to revoke it right? I would be as hard to find as someone who enters the witness protection program.
All joking aside, they need to get rid of the people responsible for these mistakes, instead of promoting them!
 
Did anyone ever figure out the AZ GFD 2023 debacle with data from a FOIA request?

Did ex-residents with lifetime licenses get passed over on the 80% random draw and AZ never made things right with them?

The only guys issued corrective tags (that I heard about) were the ex-residents with lifetime licenses that were more easily identifiable because they knew they should have drawn their "ex-resident" tags in the 20% bonus pool.

Can't believe this happened in the year 2023. And can't wait to see what AZ GFD effs up in 2024!
 
Yes, there was a screw up by azgfd. They made it right with me, I got tag 126 of 125. The people that most likely really got screwed were the people that may have drawn in the random with the lifetime license, but didn't get the tag because the 10% NR cap was already met.
Did anyone ever figure out the AZ GFD 2023 debacle with data from a FOIA request?

Did ex-residents with lifetime licenses get passed over on the 80% random draw and AZ never made things right with them?

The only guys issued corrective tags (that I heard about) were the ex-residents with lifetime licenses that were more easily identifiable because they knew they should have drawn their "ex-resident" tags in the 20% bonus pool.

Can't believe this happened in the year 2023. And can't wait to see what AZ GFD effs up in 2024!
 
Did anyone ever figure out the AZ GFD 2023 debacle with data from a FOIA request?

Did ex-residents with lifetime licenses get passed over on the 80% random draw and AZ never made things right with them?

The only guys issued corrective tags (that I heard about) were the ex-residents with lifetime licenses that were more easily identifiable because they knew they should have drawn their "ex-resident" tags in the 20% bonus pool.

Can't believe this happened in the year 2023. And can't wait to see what AZ GFD effs up in 2024!
I look forward to the AZGFD mess up each year more than my hunt application
 
...The people that most likely really got screwed were the people that may have drawn in the random with the lifetime license, but didn't get the tag because the 10% NR cap was already met.
Exactly. Did anyone ever go through the logs from the draw to identify those people?
 
Exactly. Did anyone ever go through the logs from the draw to identify those people?
Would that even be identifiable? It would seem to me that if the tag wasn't available in the 10%, the computer would just move on with no record of it. It's all just random generated numbers, right?
 
Unit 1 early archery NR took 22 to be guaranteed. Few tags went to guys with 21 in the bonus pass but 12 nr with 21 points tried for it and 5 drew in the bonus pass. I posted the link to the pdf data a few posts up.
Yes I had 20 NR points last year and thought I'd draw Unit 1 archery according to the Epic/huntin fool. No dice, now I have 21 and am thinking of holding off another year due to some other hunts I want to go on and seeing how others cashing in there points due to good moisture and late dates will affect other unit odds for future years.
 

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