Tag Cuts Upon Tag Cuts

Vanilla,
Funny how you avoid the numbers when I put them out there. Do you really believe we should issue more tags than actual bucks we have in the herd. When he have no control over the other factors that kill bucks. Predators, highways, weather snow and drought, lose of habitat, disease.
You’re telling me we should ride that line without control of those things that close? Say the number is off by even a little. Or how about this…how many of those 335,000 deer including 50,000 bucks live on private unhuntable land during the season. Say it’s 25% , that puts your total number of bucks that are huntable at 37,500, and we are issuing 65k tags? And success rates are near 50%. That’s gonna leave only 5000 bucks …with factoring in the losses from the things listed above that we can not control. Damn all this time it looks lucky that some private is actually managing and leaving some bucks the breed come Nov or us have nots would have NOTHING.
Implement antler restriction
Primitive weapon only units
Limit technology
Study elk impact
Shorter seasons
Shutdown some areas and create rest zones for deer. (Huge factor according to USU biologist, he’s done the studies they are ignored)
Most of these options give a path to maintain or even increase tags yet the DWR will not support them. And the public that you are asking to raise up only pays attention for a split second of each year.
Well said!
 
The original question that started this thread. How many more tags do we need to cut?
Vanilla,
Funny how you avoid the numbers when I put them out there. Do you really believe we should issue more tags than actual bucks we have in the herd. When he have no control over the other factors that kill bucks. Predators, highways, weather snow and drought, lose of habitat, disease.
You’re telling me we should ride that line without control of those things that close? Say the number is off by even a little. Or how about this…how many of those 335,000 deer including 50,000 bucks live on private unhuntable land during the season. Say it’s 25% , that puts your total number of bucks that are huntable at 37,500, and we are issuing 65k tags? And success rates are near 50%. That’s gonna leave only 5000 bucks …with factoring in the losses from the things listed above that we can not control. Damn all this time it looks lucky that some private is actually managing and leaving some bucks the breed come Nov or us have nots would have NOTHING.
Implement antler restriction
Primitive weapon only units
Limit technology
Study elk impact
Shorter seasons
Shutdown some areas and create rest zones for deer. (Huge factor according to USU biologist, he’s done the studies they are ignored)
Most of these options give a path to maintain or even increase tags yet the DWR will not support them. And the public that you are asking to raise up only pays attention for a split second of each year.
You are fudging your numbers by a sizable margin.
Considering under 30% of the property in Utah is private and most of that property is not what you would consider muley deer habitat, I really doubt 25% percent of the deer population is on private property.
You claim close to 50% succes of 65k hunter, does that include archery and muzzleloader.
You do realize the DWR has over sold permit numbers compared to buck numbers, if your numbers are correct that would mean we would have ran out of bucks a long time ago.
 
Hey notdon!

We Did Run Out Of Bucks with any Size To Them A Long Time Ago!:D



The original question that started this thread. How many more tags do we need to cut?
You are fudging your numbers by a sizable margin.
Considering under 30% of the property in Utah is private and most of that property is not what you would consider muley deer habitat, I really doubt 25% percent of the deer population is on private property.
You claim close to 50% succes of 65k hunter, does that include archery and muzzleloader.
You do realize the DWR has over sold permit numbers compared to buck numbers, if your numbers are correct that would mean we would have ran out of bucks a long time ago.
 
We both know I gotcha?. I am honestly fine with the way it is. I did some reflecting thinking about my kids getting tags and what it's like for others who don't have a lifetime license. I can admit I was probably being a little selfish before. What you guys need to admit now is that Utah gives out plenty of tags, we manage the buck to doe ratios lower than anyone in the west. There's no way to give more tags unless you want the buck to doe ratio to go lower. Yes we need more deer but right now we don't have them so the numbers are what they are. We are definitely on the side of opportunity versus quality, but that's fine. But quit acting like we are managing everything like the Henries, we give out a ton of tags compared to how many bucks we have.

I'm even throwing the dwr a bone. They're staying within their plan doing what they need to do ( for the most part ?)with tag numbers, good for them.
You are so proud of yourself.
Have you or any of the cut the tag gang answered vanilla original question
" how many permits do the DWR need to cut to make you All happy"
Answer the question
 
GOOD GAWD!

I Mentioned Cutting 10 Tags & Now I'm Hated!

So I'm Guessing The Answer Would Be Less Than 10?

You are so proud of yourself.
Have you or any of the cut the tag gang answered vanilla original question
" how many permits do the DWR need to cut to make you All happy"
Answer the question
 
I'm glad the WB did what they did. Couldn't agree more with them. A winter like we just had with the drought impact before it. Anyone that thinks there should of been an increase in tags on any of the units in the state is crazy. You opportunity guys are going to hunt yourselves right out of an opportunity. I think we should of not only cut tags but cut season dates in half also. Maybe for once we should think of backing off the pressure of the struggling deer herd rather then worry about putting a tag in our pocket. Is it really going to hurt things to give it a year and see how the herds recover rather then give out every last tag a biologist thinks we can?
 
You are so proud of yourself.
Have you or any of the cut the tag gang answered vanilla original question
" how many permits do the DWR need to cut to make you All happy"
Answer the question
Yes I did. Maybe read all the posts first. I answered it in post 31. Give out as many permits as possible while staying with in the B and D ratios 15-17 and 18-20 (lowest in the west in the name of opportunity) are the numbers, and I'll add the objective numbers as well.

Now answer this question. How low are you willing to go on the B and D ratios in order to give out more buck tags?. None of you opportunity guys have answered that, say 5 to 100 maybe?
 
All you guys that cry and wine about the deer numbers the #1 thing you could go out and do is push for more cow elk hunts and get out there and kill a cow for the freezer!!

This is so true here in utah!!!

I see these Private property folks all talking about saving muledeer yet let the elk herds get bigger and bigger...

I don't really blame them as the truth is elk are so much easier to manage and they hardly ever have large die offs unlike muledeer..

But the truth is by having these large herds of elk it is just killing off the muledeer numbers!!

It also would help there bull elk antler size (Score) if they would reduce there elk numbers!!!


SAVE A MULEDEER FILL THE FREEZER WITH ELK MEAT!!
 
All you guys that cry and wine about the deer numbers the #1 thing you could go out and do is push for more cow elk hunts and get out there and kill a cow for the freezer!!

This is so true here in utah!!!

I see these Private property folks all talking about saving muledeer yet let the elk herds get bigger and bigger...

I don't really blame them as the truth is elk are so much easier to manage and they hardly ever have large die offs unlike muledeer..

But the truth is by having these large herds of elk it is just killing off the muledeer numbers!!

It also would help there bull elk antler size (Score) if they would reduce there elk numbers!!!


SAVE A MULEDEER FILL THE FREEZER WITH ELK MEAT!!
In Northern Utah there is serious problem with elk on private ground.
 
Yes I did. Maybe read all the posts first. I answered it in post 31. Give out as many permits as possible while staying with in the B and D ratios 15-17 and 18-20 (lowest in the west in the name of opportunity) are the numbers, and I'll add the objective numbers as well.

Now answer this question. How low are you willing to go on the B and D ratios in order to give out more buck tags?. None of you opportunity guys have answered that, say 5 to 100 maybe?
I personally don't want the buck to doe numbers to go any lower. But cutting tag numbers has only brought up the percentage of successful hunters it has not made a difference in number of bucks.
 
I personally don't want the buck to doe numbers to go any lower. But cutting tag numbers has only brought up the percentage of successful hunters it has not made a difference in number of bucks.
Hmmmmmm, is that true do you have numbers to back it up? I am not being a jerk. I am truly curious.
 
Hmmmmmm, is that true do you have numbers to back it up? I am not being a jerk. I am truly curious.
Numbers
Over 70k permits cut.
Buck to doe numbers was less than 10 to 100 in the late 1990 now 15 to 20 (depending on the unit) for 100, why because doe numbers has tanked not because we have more bucks.
Hunter succes in the late 1990 and early 2000 was less than 20% and now around 40% depending on the unit.
Buck to doe numbers up and hunter succes up, so who's the winner and who's the lossers.
 
Numbers
Over 70k permits cut.
Buck to doe numbers was less than 10 to 100 in the late 1990 now 15 to 20 (depending on the unit) for 100, why because doe numbers has tanked not because we have more bucks.
Hunter succes in the late 1990 and early 2000 was less than 20% and now around 40% depending on the unit.
Buck to doe numbers up and hunter succes up, so who's the winner and who's the lossers.
We have become more lethal as well.
 
My choice of weapon to hunt deer is muzzleloader and I would want the DWR to take away scopes, not because it has made us more lethal (yes it has made us more lethal) but because It was alot easier to draw a permit before they allowed any power scopes.
I am selfish too.
 
The original question that started this thread. How many more tags do we need to cut?
You are fudging your numbers by a sizable margin.
Considering under 30% of the property in Utah is private and most of that property is not what you would consider muley deer habitat, I really doubt 25% percent of the deer population is on private property.
You claim close to 50% succes of 65k hunter, does that include archery and muzzleloader.
You do realize the DWR has over sold permit numbers compared to buck numbers, if your numbers are correct that would mean we would have ran out of bucks a long time ago.
For it to correct you’d need to break down each unit. Some I’m high and some I’m low. My point is we ride the line way way too close. It’s irresponsible if we are really concerned about the healthy valuable resource.
 
How many does are they shooting in Utah and how is that factored in? It's not only buck tags that should be scrutinized in the effort to have a quality deer herd in my opinion.

We had a terrible winter in 16/17, F&G estimated that 70% of the adult deer and 100% of the fawns in my unit were killed and based on what I saw I believe them. They still let youth shoot does for 15 days and gave out OTC tags for 5 years on top of 50 rut draw tags. The unit is basically destroyed at this point but they finally cut the kids doe season to 6 days and cut the rut tags to 30 while still giving out thousands of OTC buck tags. With easy winters the unit will bounce back in 25-30 years if we're lucky.
 
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WTF Do you Mean He Doesn't want You To?

He Wants everybody But Himself To Cut Their Tags Up Before Their Season Starts So The DWR Still Gets Their Money!


How you came to that conclusion I have no idea.

I want every guy whining for tag cuts to cut them.

Vanilla, like me, is completely honest about a actually wanting to hunt.
 
Outside of emails to the RAC and WB members each time all this comes up, how do we “talk to these fools”?

I think this goes way beyond them. The whole RAC/WB system is broken.

Send Wade an email.

If he responds, you will see for yourself what he's like
 
Lmao!!!! I’ve given plenty of input and ideas. Just like I answered elks question. You just get your feels hurt because I don’t chose to answer you or hoss and a few others. As far as lobbing shots from the side lines, I’ve been involved long before you even knew there was something to me involved in. Again the fact that you don’t know that shows exactly how under educated you actually are. Keep crying ace…you’re making a difference!!!


That's not true.

You have answered me, which is why anyone who paid attention simply laughs when you chime in.

I'll let you get back to your "trust me I'm smarter than everyone" talk
 
And Neither One Of You,Especially You, Whining For People To Cut Their Tags Up & You'll Be The Very F'N First Not To Cut Your F'N Tag Up!

JUDAS!

Hypocritism At It's Best!





How you came to that conclusion I have no idea.

I want every guy whining for tag cuts to cut them.

Vanilla, like me, is completely honest about a actually wanting to hunt.
 
Vanilla,
Funny how you avoid the numbers when I put them out there. Do you really believe we should issue more tags than actual bucks we have in the herd. When he have no control over the other factors that kill bucks. Predators, highways, weather snow and drought, lose of habitat, disease.
You’re telling me we should ride that line without control of those things that close? Say the number is off by even a little. Or how about this…how many of those 335,000 deer including 50,000 bucks live on private unhuntable land during the season. Say it’s 25% , that puts your total number of bucks that are huntable at 37,500, and we are issuing 65k tags? And success rates are near 50%. That’s gonna leave only 5000 bucks …with factoring in the losses from the things listed above that we can not control. Damn all this time it looks lucky that some private is actually managing and leaving some bucks the breed come Nov or us have nots would have NOTHING.
Implement antler restriction
Primitive weapon only units
Limit technology
Study elk impact
Shorter seasons
Shutdown some areas and create rest zones for deer. (Huge factor according to USU biologist, he’s done the studies they are ignored)
Most of these options give a path to maintain or even increase tags yet the DWR will not support them. And the public that you are asking to raise up only pays attention for a split second of each year.


Well, hell. All the listening, watching, you've done, has there EVER been a season that went the way you just said?

How about last year? At the end of deer hunts, were there only 5-6k bucks left? Is that really what all your knowledge wants to put out there?

Also, so? How many fawns did those 5000 bucks carry to full term?

Did we go from the 1.5 million deer you claim to 330k because we shot that many bucks? No.

As usual, the smoke an mirrors are just that.

The DWR CANNOT control housing development, freeways, fire suppression, aged sage, ATV/snowmobiles, weather.

They can control predation, and elk.

But elk hunters ain't going to go along with giving up more tags so Wade Heaton can commercialize deer.


Look at the absolute meltdowns dudes had over bait.

Look at them freaking out over a scope.

Here's the real dirty "secret".

The issue isn't the amount of bucks. Sure, we all want more. The issue, in Utah, is concentration of hunters.

With CWMU expanding yearly. And LE units, the remaining portion of the state, has too many hunters on too little habitat.

We are where we are not because of opportunists. It's because of trophy hunting. Incorporate all the acreage from LE, and the public encapsulated by CWMU, and the concentration of hunters is dispersed.

We cut, and cut, and cut, yet, we are nearly identical to where we were in 1993.

I will grant rest areas are a good idea.

I would favor rotating BLIND resting.

AFTER tag draws, close a unit, randomly, refund money for that unit. Doing so prior to draws, simply hotspots other areas.

And yup, include LE and CWMU in those closings. I'm sure Heaton would welcome doing so to save the muledeer
 
And Neither One Of You,Especially You, Whining For People To Cut Their Tags Up & You'll Be The Very F'N First Not To Cut Your F'N Tag Up!

JUDAS!

Hypocritism At It's Best!

No. Have you been working around lead flanges again?

I don't want ANYONE to cut up a tag. I want the tag cutters to simply be the first to do what they supposedly want.

I, and Vanilla, as hunters, want the opportunity to hunt. I'll do it with dart guns, spears, rocks, whatever. I want to spend every fall hunting deer.

Guys like you, want their neighbor to sit home, so they can hunt yearly, with LR, thermal, gps, drones, whatever.

I'll take the yearly tag. I'll let it be up to me what "quality" looks like.

You can sit home for a few years, until your idea of "quality" is on the landscape. Seems fair, we both get what we are calling for
 
Vanilla,
Funny how you avoid the numbers when I put them out there. Do you really believe we should issue more tags than actual bucks we have in the herd. When he have no control over the other factors that kill bucks. Predators, highways, weather snow and drought, lose of habitat, disease.
You’re telling me we should ride that line without control of those things that close? Say the number is off by even a little. Or how about this…how many of those 335,000 deer including 50,000 bucks live on private unhuntable land during the season. Say it’s 25% , that puts your total number of bucks that are huntable at 37,500, and we are issuing 65k tags? And success rates are near 50%. That’s gonna leave only 5000 bucks …with factoring in the losses from the things listed above that we can not control. Damn all this time it looks lucky that some private is actually managing and leaving some bucks the breed come Nov or us have nots would have NOTHING.
Implement antler restriction
Primitive weapon only units
Limit technology
Study elk impact
Shorter seasons
Shutdown some areas and create rest zones for deer. (Huge factor according to USU biologist, he’s done the studies they are ignored)
Most of these options give a path to maintain or even increase tags yet the DWR will not support them. And the public that you are asking to raise up only pays attention for a split second of each year.
Whoah! All of you!
Your figures (and biology) are missing a whole generation of bucks and does.
1. Bucks are NOT born with antlers and are still counted as fawns after the first hunt they are alive, but they grow antlers and may die for whatever reason (including being shot by a hunter) before the count after the second hunt happens, when they are (or would be) counted as bucks. The ONLY counts many show up in are the harvest, roadkill, disease, predator kill, and accidental death numbers. In other words, you can't count last years numbers to propose tags without estimating this year's numbers BEFORE this year's hunts. There's a whole generation of NEW bucks available to hunt and the DWR's tag numbers reflect that. They DO NOT issue more tags than we have bucks available to harvest!
 
Whoah! All of you!
Your figures (and biology) are missing a whole generation of bucks and does.
1. Bucks are NOT born with antlers and are still counted as fawns after the first hunt they are alive, but they grow antlers and may die for whatever reason (including being shot by a hunter) before the count after the second hunt happens, when they are (or would be) counted as bucks. The ONLY counts many show up in are the harvest, roadkill, disease, predator kill, and accidental death numbers. In other words, you can't count last years numbers to propose tags without estimating this year's numbers BEFORE this year's hunts. There's a whole generation of NEW bucks available to hunt and the DWR's tag numbers reflect that. They DO NOT issue more tags than we have bucks available to harvest!
???? Don’t let truthful facts get in the way of irrational rants and presumed knowledge (ironically based on grudges against DWR employees that aren’t even employed any longer ??‍♂️??)
 
All you guys that cry and wine about the deer numbers the #1 thing you could go out and do is push for more cow elk hunts and get out there and kill a cow for the freezer!!

This is so true here in utah!!!

I see these Private property folks all talking about saving muledeer yet let the elk herds get bigger and bigger...

I don't really blame them as the truth is elk are so much easier to manage and they hardly ever have large die offs unlike muledeer..

But the truth is by having these large herds of elk it is just killing off the muledeer numbers!!

It also would help there bull elk antler size (Score) if they would reduce there elk numbers!!!


SAVE A MULEDEER FILL THE FREEZER WITH ELK MEAT!!
Biologist told me for every 1 cow taken saves 5 mule deer
 
Lol I love this time of the year on MM…

Lee you ought to get the gang back together…you, Vanilla and Hoss should start a group and start attending meetings!!! For real you all ought to do it….maybe this time Lee you all can at least split the gas money 3 ways!
 
Lol I love this time of the year on MM…

Lee you ought to get the gang back together…you, Vanilla and Hoss should start a group and start attending meetings!!! For real you all ought to do it….maybe this time Lee you all can at least split the gas money 3 ways!

I would be ungrateful if I missed this opportunity to thank for all your hard work to get mule deer tags reduced from ~250k down to 64k. Your awesome efforts while I didn’t know there was something to be involved in should be properly recognized by everyone here.

Thanks muley73. Congrats on a job well done!
 
Lol I love this time of the year on MM…

Lee you ought to get the gang back together…you, Vanilla and Hoss should start a group and start attending meetings!!! For real you all ought to do it….maybe this time Lee you all can at least split the gas money 3 ways!

Well, I mean if "it wasn't for guys like you", we wouldn't have deer hunting, so I guess we best do what you say.


Look, if I believed Utah had 1.5 million deer in the "golden age", and only 5000 left after hunts last year, I too would be bitter, it's understandable. Bad math and crap biology does that to a guy
 
I would be ungrateful if I missed this opportunity to thank for all your hard work to get mule deer tags reduced from ~250k down to 64k. Your awesome efforts while I didn’t know there was something to be involved in should be properly recognized by everyone here.

Thanks muley73. Congrats on a job well done!

And that increased the herd from about 330,000, in the 90's to 330,000 today A spectacular success.

But then, that was $fw, a group he wasor is part of who he does or doesnt agree with, depending on the subject.
 
Hey hossy!

You & The KING Can Keep Poundin Your PISSCUTTERS!

Maybe IG Them!

The LOOK AT ME Factor!

The I WANNA HUNT EVERY F'N YEAR rather there's anything left To Hunt Or Not!

Did You Get Them Electric Chainsaws Delivered Yet?
 
Lol I love this time of the year on MM…

Lee you ought to get the gang back together…you, Vanilla and Hoss should start a group and start attending meetings!!! For real you all ought to do it….maybe this time Lee you all can at least split the gas money 3 ways!
Thanks, Cody! I suppose it could be done, but I'm afraid life and time have taken their toll, especially on this ol' body of mine (IT turns 82 tomorrow, but my mind is still only about 40). I have had to rely on my live-in daughter, son-in-law and two child-age grandkids to take care of me more, especially since my wife passed away 5 years ago, Plus, I still live in Enoch and the 5 hour drive to Salt Lake/Magna, even as a passenger, has been difficult.
However, if the other 2 (or anyone else) contacts me, I'm willing to consider it.
 
Happy Birthday efa!

You Gonna Tell Us If You've Ever Shot A Deer Out The Camoed Truck Window With Your Bow While The Deer Was Chewin On Your CHUM Pile?:D

Thanks, Cody! I suppose it could be done, but I'm afraid life and time have taken their toll, especially on this ol' body of mine (IT turns 82 tomorrow, but my mind is still only about 40). I have had to rely on my live-in daughter, son-in-law and two child-age grandkids to take care of me more, especially since my wife passed away 5 years ago, Plus, I still live in Enoch and the 5 hour drive to Salt Lake/Magna, even as a passenger, has been difficult.
However, if the other 2 (or anyone else) contacts me, I'm willing to consider it.
 
Ya!

A Count That You & The KING Took To Heart Because The DWR Said So!

And that increased the herd from about 330,000, in the 90's to 330,000 today A spectacular success.

But then, that was $fw, a group he wasor is part of who he does or doesnt agree with, depending on the subject.
 
Hey hossy!

You're an Ornery SUM BITTCH This Time A Year!

Maybe You Should Go Shoot an Illegal Quacker Somewhere!
 
I would be ungrateful if I missed this opportunity to thank for all your hard work to get mule deer tags reduced from ~250k down to 64k. Your awesome efforts while I didn’t know there was something to be involved in should be properly recognized by everyone here.

Thanks muley73. Congrats on a job well done!
Lol, still only worried about tags and not the actual resource. ?
 
Nothing has ever been cut from the CON show!

Completely untrue statement.

Expo tags are adjusted every year based off the objectives on each unit.

The overall number of tags stays at 200, but a Henry's tag can be replaced by a simple turkey tag.
 
Completely untrue statement.

Expo tags are adjusted every year based off the objectives on each unit.

The overall number of tags stays at 200, but a Henry's tag can be replaced by a simple turkey tag.
Yep, a lot more turkey, and antlerless elk tags the last couple years it seems.
 
What most guys don’t quite get is we could be issuing those 250,000 tags still. The cuts, by and large are forced by social pressure and hunter satisfaction not biological inputs.

On the exponential curve that represents the impact of hunters and harvest on population, there is a segment of the male deer/elk herds that are untouchable for one reason or another. We could issue an infinite number of permits and still not touch that 5% which would be sufficient for servicing the in place number of does.

We don’t do it because hunter satisfaction would plummet to 0 and that’s a valid and important part of the management model, and the political fallout from the optics would cost the entire division their jobs.
 
Happy Birthday efa!

You Gonna Tell Us If You've Ever Shot A Deer Out The Camoed Truck Window With Your Bow While The Deer Was Chewin On Your CHUM Pile?:D
Thanks for the Happy Birthday, Bess! (First one I've gotten since being on this forum. And at my age, it could be the last.:().

Post #34--"Show Us Your Hunting Rig" for the answer to your inquiring mind. NO, I don't do anything illegal, including leaving the meat which you imply YOU don't need.
 
Completely untrue statement.

Expo tags are adjusted every year based off the objectives on each unit.

The overall number of tags stays at 200, but a Henry's tag can be replaced by a simple turkey tag.

Technically correct, they COULD be replaced by that, but never have.

In fact, I’d be curious to see where the premium tags that were replaced by the cow elk tags went? Certainly not back to the public draw.
 
Yet those that got replaced didn’t get reduced overall. I’m guessing some conservation organization got them as those tags have increased sizably the last decade.

The con orgs are not going without. Ever.
As stated by Jake....they exchange big game tags for bear, turkey and cow tags.
 
Technically correct, they COULD be replaced by that, but never have.

In fact, I’d be curious to see where the premium tags that were replaced by the cow elk tags went? Certainly not back to the public draw.
They didn't go anywhere else but gone, it's contractual and law as stated in 3a which is also audited.
Screenshot_20230507_155747_Chrome.jpg
 
WOW!

That'd Be A Real F'N Dandy Of a Prize on The HUNT-EXPO Drawing!

A Turkey Tag!

Or a F'N Cow Elk Tag!
It happens.

Anyone notice all the additional bear tags this year at not just expo, but various banquets from all the different groups?

Apparently not......
 
Hey hossy!

You & The KING Can Keep Poundin Your PISSCUTTERS!

Maybe IG Them!

The LOOK AT ME Factor!

The I WANNA HUNT EVERY F'N YEAR rather there's anything left To Hunt Or Not!

Did You Get Them Electric Chainsaws Delivered Yet?


I'm fine hunting. The "look at me factor" is for dudes waiting 25 years to hunt SJ.
 
It happens.

Anyone notice all the additional bear tags this year at not just expo, but various banquets from all the different groups?

Apparently not......


I noticed the week after the expo how many and what tags $fw had.

Let's be honest. Lots more $$$ for premium tag at banquet than for $5 ticket.

And, as was stated earlier, Deseret and Ensign won't have a single tag cut, despite the hammering Morgan/Rich took.
 
You Might Wanna Check In To That hossy!

They Can Make Their Own Cuts & Ensign Does,I Don't Know On Deseret!

I noticed the week after the expo how many and what tags $fw had.

Let's be honest. Lots more $$$ for premium tag at banquet than for $5 ticket.

And, as was stated earlier, Deseret and Ensign won't have a single tag cut, despite the hammering Morgan/Rich took.
 
I noticed the week after the expo how many and what tags $fw had.

Let's be honest. Lots more $$$ for premium tag at banquet than for $5 ticket.

And, as was stated earlier, Deseret and Ensign won't have a single tag cut, despite the hammering Morgan/Rich took.
I am no longer involved with DLL (my chase helicopter crashed) but if management still operates the same, there will definitely be cuts.

I am no longer involved with Ensign either, but I would bet money the Division cuts CWMU deer tags there as well.

I have guided both ranches and tag allocation most definitely vary under circumstances whether it's up or down.
 
The bulk of Expo tags this year were bull elk, which fall right in line with the new Elk Plan to reduce age classes.

The highest allotments were on the two highest herd units, Manti and Wasatch, the others were "onsey twosey".
 
It’s not a conspiracy at all.

Did tags get swapped out for cow tags at the expo? Simple yes or no question.

Have conservation tags increased during that same time? Simple yes or no question.

That’s like telling me that saying the sky is blue is a conspiracy!

And muley73 is just happy we’re back to talking about the expo instead of his crap efforts that have resulted in the decimated mule deer herds in Utah!
 
It’s not a conspiracy at all.

Did tags get swapped out for cow tags at the expo? Simple yes or no question.

(Not just cow elk, but turkey bear and other tags traded around when allocation needs adjustment, so yes in a sense.)

Have conservation tags increased during that same time? Simple yes or no question.

(Absolutely not.
As I already stated, even my MDF Banquets had less big game tags and more bear to make up the deficits.)

That’s like telling me that saying the sky is blue is a conspiracy!

And muley73 is just happy we’re back to talking about the expo instead of his crap efforts that have resulted in the decimated mule deer herds in Utah!
 
I am no longer involved with DLL (my chase helicopter crashed) but if management still operates the same, there will definitely be cuts.

I am no longer involved with Ensign either, but I would bet money the Division cuts CWMU deer tags there as well.

I have guided both ranches and tag allocation most definitely vary under circumstances whether it's up or down.

"My chase helicopter crashed"??????

Well played sir.

I'll need to see if tag cuts are mandated via the DWR, and are on the same percentage as the publics. If so, good. But my understanding is both places do their own counts?
 
"My chase helicopter crashed"??????

Well played sir.

I'll need to see if tag cuts are mandated via the DWR, and are on the same percentage as the publics. If so, good. But my understanding is both places do their own counts?
I'm with you.....they damn well better be in line.
 
Thanks Slam. I saw the replies. I have not seen this year’s tag allocations. Have a link so I can verify?
Unfortunately I don't have any side by side variables to use as a proving point, but I do know for a fact that our conservation tags were switched around to match the forecasted recommendations and we got stuck with a lot of additional bear tags which in turn obviously lowered our auction revenue.

Maybe next year we'll be auctioning turkey tags at MDF’s banquets in lieu of deer tags ?
 
Just wow guys. There are no “gotcha” moments here. No one is right, no one is wrong. Can they give unlimited opportunity and increase overall herd numbers, b/d ratios and trophy quality? Yes. Can they cut tags and increase overall heard numbers b/d ratios and trophy quality? Yes. The determining factor of “success” or “quality” is with us, the hunter. We decide what a “quality” or “successful” experience is. They could give unlimited blow gun permits, in every unit, and the herd and age class would increase (not taking into account acts of nature) and many would welcome this. But as humans we are selfish and want what we want. Some think a tag should reasonably provide inches equating to quality/success, some think it should equate to automatic bragging rights caliber animals, some think filling that tag easily equates to quality/success, some think filling a tag every year is where it’s at, some just want the opportunity to hunt with their weapon of choice, some just want to hunt or spend time outdoors with family/friends regardless of harvest. What’s the right answer? It’s different for everyone. Personally, if Utah would give me a slingshot tag once in a while, with the chance at a fairytale critter, I’d take it. Utah could make slingshot licenses unlimited in the best units and bucks/bulls would still be dying of old age. The point being, you don’t have to cut tags for a desired outcome. You have to love to hunt and recognize that differing opinions do as well. More so than thinking you deserve to add inches to your wall with the weapon you prefer, or punch that tag when you step in the field. Cutting tags is A answer, not THE answer. Unlimited opportunity is A answer, not THE answer. B/d ratios are a tool that while important for determing male licenses, is not useful in determining anything else. Carrying capacity of environment, feed, water, shelter, winter range are far better management tools for herd health. 50 bucks to 100 does doesn’t mean squat if a unit has 1000 does, it’s no different than 10 bucks per 100 does in a unit with 5000 does. Before the backlash, I have plenty of inches, I’ve filled plenty of tags, I’ve chilli-Mac’d (don’t like soup) plenty of premium tags, have kids getting into hunting, apply everywhere, and am plain happy with a general tag in my home state if that’s where all our fighting pushes us. Thanks for reading.
 
Just wow guys. There are no “gotcha” moments here. No one is right, no one is wrong. Can they give unlimited opportunity and increase overall herd numbers, b/d ratios and trophy quality? Yes. Can they cut tags and increase overall heard numbers b/d ratios and trophy quality? Yes. The determining factor of “success” or “quality” is with us, the hunter. We decide what a “quality” or “successful” experience is. They could give unlimited blow gun permits, in every unit, and the herd and age class would increase (not taking into account acts of nature) and many would welcome this. But as humans we are selfish and want what we want. Some think a tag should reasonably provide inches equating to quality/success, some think it should equate to automatic bragging rights caliber animals, some think filling that tag easily equates to quality/success, some think filling a tag every year is where it’s at, some just want the opportunity to hunt with their weapon of choice, some just want to hunt or spend time outdoors with family/friends regardless of harvest. What’s the right answer? It’s different for everyone. Personally, if Utah would give me a slingshot tag once in a while, with the chance at a fairytale critter, I’d take it. Utah could make slingshot licenses unlimited in the best units and bucks/bulls would still be dying of old age. The point being, you don’t have to cut tags for a desired outcome. You have to love to hunt and recognize that differing opinions do as well. More so than thinking you deserve to add inches to your wall with the weapon you prefer, or punch that tag when you step in the field. Cutting tags is A answer, not THE answer. Unlimited opportunity is A answer, not THE answer. B/d ratios are a tool that while important for determing male licenses, is not useful in determining anything else. Carrying capacity of environment, feed, water, shelter, winter range are far better management tools for herd health. 50 bucks to 100 does doesn’t mean squat if a unit has 1000 does, it’s no different than 10 bucks per 100 does in a unit with 5000 does. Before the backlash, I have plenty of inches, I’ve filled plenty of tags, I’ve chilli-Mac’d (don’t like soup) plenty of premium tags, have kids getting into hunting, apply everywhere, and am plain happy with a general tag in my home state if that’s where all our fighting pushes us. Thanks for reading.
I agree with a lot of what you said.
 
It’s not a conspiracy at all.

Did tags get swapped out for cow tags at the expo? Simple yes or no question.

Have conservation tags increased during that same time? Simple yes or no question.

That’s like telling me that saying the sky is blue is a conspiracy!

And muley73 is just happy we’re back to talking about the expo instead of his crap efforts that have resulted in the decimated mule deer herds in Utah!
It’s generally one of those two things you’re crying about so I wasn’t to worried when you jumped to the Expo.

But if you want to jump back I’d love to hear ideas to grow more deer. Also I’m with grizz on wanting to know what your number is. You didn’t like any of my ideas …let’s hear you master plan.

Sorry the delay…chilling at Lake Como for a couple weeks and not on the same time zone. ;)
 
Here’s a question for everyone gathered.

If Utahs deer herd was managed by a private company . Could charge what they wanted for tags but had to show a set increase of overall herd numbers each year. Once they reached a set number they were required to maintain that number. Let’s set the number at 600,000. Could it be done?
 
Here’s a question for everyone gathered.

If Utahs deer herd was managed by a private company . Could charge what they wanted for tags but had to show a set increase of overall herd numbers each year. Once they reached a set number they were required to maintain that number. Let’s set the number at 600,000. Could it be done?
No,
Plenty of studies show how the biggest limiting factor to Mule deer survival is good winter range.

The winter/spring die offs are a prime example that there is/has not been ample good winter range. This year just put the emphasis on it.

Sure there are other factors too but if they starve the others don't make a lot of difference.

Mule deer have not been historically prevalent in large numbers except for a brief period.
 
No,
Plenty of studies show how the biggest limiting factor to Mule deer survival is good winter range.

The winter/spring die offs are a prime example that there is/has not been ample good winter range. This year just put the emphasis on it.

Sure there are other factors too but if they starve the others don't make a lot of difference.

Mule deer have not been historically prevalent in large numbers except for a brief period.
Middle,
I agree in some areas that is without question a huge factor. But what about the areas like southern Utah that still have 90% of the winter range yet the herds have plummeted?
 
Here’s a question for everyone gathered.

If Utahs deer herd was managed by a private company . Could charge what they wanted for tags but had to show a set increase of overall herd numbers each year. Once they reached a set number they were required to maintain that number. Let’s set the number at 600,000. Could it be done?

No, it could not be done.
 
Muley what impact did the drought have on winter range in southern Utah?
I believe it is about as good as it gets. Sure there will be fluctuations but unless there are some major improvements in the winter range they are a pretty limited species.
 
So you believe it’s as good as it’s gonna get?
I honestly don't see things getting a whole hell of a lot better than they have been in the last 20 years. There were a few highlights like early 2000s on the Wasatch front and 2015-16ish in pine valley and some of the southern units............ The trend is downward and has been for a very long time now. Do I think the herd will come back from this winter to pre 2022 levels? Yeah I do.... Do I think it's ever going to be even close to great again? Not a chance.

While this is a charged debate the fact is there is roughly 1/5 the amount of hunters on the hill as there use to be, and of those 1/5, 40-50% of them are even using a rifle anymore and still the herds decline. To keep saying we (buck hunters) are the problem with deer numbers when we don't hunt does (on a large scale) is silly at this point.

Look at Nevada for example. They really limit their tags. And yet their deer numbers just keep going down. There is zero argument to be made that hunting is the limiting factor on Nevadas deer herds.
 
Too many annual variables on every unit out of our control, it's a yo yo.

Can it get better.....absolutely.
Will it....we're trying.

Will we ever reach our fairytale.....no.
Slam,
I don’t think 600,000 is close to a fairy tale personally.

I’m not surprised at the comments. It’s the reason the DWR feels safe just rolling the way they have for 50 years. If you all feels it’s as good as it gets then why would they even try to improve things.
 
Slam,
I don’t think 600,000 is close to a fairy tale personally.

I’m not surprised at the comments. It’s the reason the DWR feels safe just rolling the way they have for 50 years. If you all feels it’s as good as it gets then why would they even try to improve things.
600k would be nice, but realistically can our winter ranges handle that in today's world?
Wasatch front certainly can't even support what we currently have now, deer are living in our neighborhoods to survive.

Other units yes of course, but where and how do we spread 600k?
 
Privatizing wildlife management would absolutely solve a modicum of problems. There’s a wealth of evidence across history that shows the private sector being far superior to government management.

IT WOULD ALSO END, END HUNTING FOR ANYONE BUT THE ULTRA ELITE.

So while the idea is at least attractive from the surface, count me out.

We just need to scrap mule deer in general and go full steam ahead with the far superior species known as whitetail. ?
 
Privatizing wildlife management would absolutely solve a modicum of problems. There’s a wealth of evidence across history that shows the private sector being far superior to government management.

IT WOULD ALSO END, END HUNTING FOR ANYONE BUT THE ULTRA ELITE.

So while the idea is at least attractive from the surface, count me out.

We just need to scrap mule deer in general and go full steam ahead with the far superior species known as whitetail. ?
I agree that cost would go up. But my question is could a private interest make it happen….if so how would they do it?
 
600k would be nice, but realistically can our winter ranges handle that in today's world?
Wasatch front certainly can't even support what we currently have now, deer are living in our neighborhoods to survive.

Other units yes of course, but where and how do we spread 600k?
Slam from Nephi South it’s all still there…does there need to be improvements made in the habitat. Yes I’m sure there is. But lose of the actual range is not really an issue in the majority of the state.
 
Slam from Nephi South it’s all still there…does there need to be improvements made in the habitat. Yes I’m sure there is. But lose of the actual range is not really an issue in the majority of the state.
Yes, Nephi south is in great shape, north, not so good....
The MDF has been doing a lot of work on the santaquin bench towards the south on the WMA.

I agree that the rest of the state aside from Wasatch front and even Wasatch back
have robbed the winter range for Urban Sprawl.
 
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I disagree.
If whitetails were superior, they'd already have been established here centuries ago.

They are superior in their natural environments, Utah is not that place for Mother Nature's own personal reasons.
 
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Here’s a question for everyone gathered.

If Utahs deer herd was managed by a private company . Could charge what they wanted for tags but had to show a set increase of overall herd numbers each year. Once they reached a set number they were required to maintain that number. Let’s set the number at 600,000. Could it be done?

Sure. We call those high fence units, game preserves, private hunting clubs.

Rulon Jones kicks ot 400" bulls yearly.

Of course it costs $50k to hunt these "quality" animals.

But here's the real question. One you've yet to answer in years.

Where's the conspiracy?

You keep pointing to failed management, profit margins, etc.

How does this grand scheme work? MDF biologists make more than DWR. So there's no money

Do DWR biologists secretly want to end hunting?

Where is this conspiracy, and who benefits from it?
 
I disagree.
If whitetails were superior, they'd already have been established here centuries ago.

They are superior in their natural environments, Utah is not that place for Mother Nature's own personal reasons.

They are superior. There's no real argument to make otherwise. Simply compare their numbers to Muleys in the last 30 years.

They've been lethally stopped.

But remember, Utah of even the 70's isn't Utah today.

We plowed under sage to grow alfalpha. They would flourish if left to invade.
 
They are superior. There's no real argument to make otherwise. Simply compare their numbers to Muleys in the last 30 years.

They've been lethally stopped.

But remember, Utah of even the 70's isn't Utah today.

We plowed under sage to grow alfalpha. They would flourish if left to invade.

Sorry, I meant superior in this region.

There are no fences keeping them out, no special hunts removing them nor regulations saving them, why aren't they thriving naturally here?

I searched online and cannot find a single bit of evidence that whitetail deer were ever established in Utah and or "lethally stopped".

If you can provide something that states otherwise, I'd love to read it.
 
Honest Question: SFW was founded in the 1990s with the express purpose to save and restore Utah's mule deer. Over the last 30 years, they have raised tens of millions of dollars and along with MDF and other organizations have funded numerous conservation projects through the state. SFW has also had significant control and influence over the RACs, the WB and the policy making process. SFW more than any other group or individual has had its hand on the steering wheel at the DWR and the WB during this period of time. As you know, I have been critical of SFW and some of the other conservation groups but even I recognize that they have helped restore and improve massive amounts of habitat throughout the state. But why hasn't SFW been able to turn the corner and change the trend on Utah's mule deer herds? What have they done wrong? What can we do differently moving forward. I would like to hear your thoughts on this question.

As I have said before, I personally believe that mule deer are a fairly fragile species that are impacted by numerous factors, many of which are beyond our control. That does not mean that we should not try to grow our herds. I believe that we should hunt predators, improve habitat, fence roads, etc., but we also have to realize that there are many factors that we largely cannot control (e.g., drought, harsh winters, human encroachment, loss of winter range, increased vehicular mortality, etc.). As a result, I personally do not believe that we will ever see mule deer numbers like we experienced in the 50's and 60's. If this was a simple issue to solve, SFW would have fixed it over the last 30 years and every other state would not be dealing with the same problems. Therefore, let's do what we can to improve and grow our herds but don't be surprised if we are having this same conversation twenty years from now because there are so many factors affecting mule deer that we do not and cannot control.

Hawkeye
 
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The O/S unit has a 20/100 average ratio for the past three year. That's three over the 15-17 it's managed for but the board still cut 500 tags this year just because no other unit in the central region had a proposed tag increase. That was just a plain ole bonehead thing to do. The board should be ashamed of themselves, instead of patting themselves on the back.
Did they cut 500 tags I swear I saw them add 500? Am I up in the night here?
 
Honest Question: SFW was founded in the 1990s with the express purpose to save and restore Utah's mule deer. Over the last 30 years, they have raised tens of millions of dollars and along with MDF and other organizations have funded numerous conservation projects through the state. SFW has also had significant control and influence over the RACs, the WB and the policy making process. SFW more than any other group or individual has had its hand on the steering wheel at the DWR and the WB during this period of time. As you know, I have been critical of SFW and some of the other conservation groups but even I recognize that they have helped restore and improve massive amounts of habitat throughout the state. But why hasn't SFW been able to turn the corner and change the trend on Utah's mule deer herds? What have they done wrong? What can we do differently moving forward. I would like to hear your thoughts on this question.

As I have said before, I personally believe that mule deer are a fairly fragile species are impacted by numerous factors, many of which are completely beyond our control. That does not mean that we should not try to grow our herds. I believe that we should hunt predators, improve habitat, fence roads, etc., but we also have to realize that there are many factors that we largely cannot control (e.g., drought, harsh winters, human encroachment, loss of winter range, increased vehicular mortality, etc.). As a result, I personally do not believe that we will ever see mule deer numbers like we experienced in the 50's and 60's. If this was a simple issue to solve, SFW would have fixed it over the last 30 years and every other state would not be dealing with the same problems. Therefore, let's do what we can to improve and grow our herds but don't be surprised if we are having this same conversation twenty years from now because there are so many factors affecting mule deer that we do not and cannot control.

Hawkeye

Excellent post.

Here comes my expected answer for the conservation questions.

I only speak for MDF, not the other, so bare with me.

The second half of your post already answered it....."keep up with conservation efforts" that ARE being done.

I'll answer a question with a question.....where would we be without these efforts by conservation groups?

Look at the Paunsaugunt unit.
It crashed years ago yet is thriving today.
Go look at the fences, guzzlers and tunnels and take notice of the signs on them like "funded By MDF, SFW"....

Here is a snapshot of just last year's funding to a handful of projects around our state.

Where would we be without them if we are already struggling?
Screenshot_20230508_103205_Gallery.jpg
 
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