Another Educational Opportunity

Question For You Niller?

And Before You Get All PISSY!

Do We Not Care About Raising Bucks Anymore?

Less Bucks Is Gonna Equal Less Hunters Taking Bucks!

Correct Me,I Know You Will!

If We Knock The Bucks Down To 5-10 Bucks Per 100 Does Come Fall Time Counts!

Then We Gotta Wonder How Many Winter Kills There Was On The Bucks!

Then We Gotta Wonder How Many Bucks Were Killed By Predators!

Then We Gotta Wonder How Many Road-Kill Bucks There Were!

How Many Got Poached!

((( THIS LIST IS BIG & I'M NOT POSTING THEM ALL! )))

I Kinda thought Most Hunters Want A Half-Assed Chance At A Buck Come Hunting Season?

LESS BUCKS IN THE FIELD = LESS HUNTERS SATISFIED In The Field!

I'm Not Posting This To PISS YOU OFF!

I'm Posting This Wondering Where The Common Sense Has Went In This State/Country!

Let's Start Growing Some Deer Numbers By Doing Something Smart Rather Than Worrying About It Only Takes 5 Bucks Per 100 Does And Worrying About Them Bucks Taking Up Space On This Earth!

Take A Deep Breath Niller!

Gonna Tell You One More Time:

I'm Not Posting This To PISS You Off!

THINK BEFORE YOU GET PISSED!

Do We Really Need To Manage For Even Less Bucks?
 
You don't have the ability to piss me off Bessy. Quit flattering yourself.

In answer to all your questions, nobody is advocating going down to 5:100 buck to doe ratio. We can't have the discussion if you're not going to be honest.

But I will say, the research is showing pretty clearly what game managers need to do if you want to grow more deer. The data is fascinating. But because it challenges the status quo that you claim to hate, yet constantly advocate for, you won't listen.

I didn't post this for you. I posted it for people that want to learn something like I did.
 
Question For You Niller?

And Before You Get All PISSY!

Do We Not Care About Raising Bucks Anymore?

Less Bucks Is Gonna Equal Less Hunters Taking Bucks!

Correct Me,I Know You Will!

If We Knock The Bucks Down To 5-10 Bucks Per 100 Does Come Fall Time Counts!

Then We Gotta Wonder How Many Winter Kills There Was On The Bucks!

Then We Gotta Wonder How Many Bucks Were Killed By Predators!

Then We Gotta Wonder How Many Road-Kill Bucks There Were!

How Many Got Poached!

((( THIS LIST IS BIG & I'M NOT POSTING THEM ALL! )))

I Kinda thought Most Hunters Want A Half-Assed Chance At A Buck Come Hunting Season?

LESS BUCKS IN THE FIELD = LESS HUNTERS SATISFIED In The Field!

I'm Not Posting This To PISS YOU OFF!

I'm Posting This Wondering Where The Common Sense Has Went In This State/Country!

Let's Start Growing Some Deer Numbers By Doing Something Smart Rather Than Worrying About It Only Takes 5 Bucks Per 100 Does And Worrying About Them Bucks Taking Up Space On This Earth!

Take A Deep Breath Niller!

Gonna Tell You One More Time:

I'm Not Posting This To PISS You Off!

THINK BEFORE YOU GET PISSED!

Do We Really Need To Manage For Even Less Bucks?
At this point I can’t really begin to think most hunters in the field are satisfied as things currently sit. In all honesty, I think if a guy was seeing 250+ does during the season, they would run into a buck for them to shoot at eventually. As it is now, I assume many guys go several consecutive years before they see 250 deer total during their time hunting.

I’m really ready to try a new approach. I’m fine with less bucks on the landscape, if the idea actually works. Because what we’ve been doing for the last 30+ years hasn’t been working. If giving guys more opportunities puts more deer on the mountain, I’m all for it. Remember, 50% of the fawns born are bucks. If you have a shiz load of does out there, you have half a shiz load of bucks being born every June. At some point those numbers could add up.
 
Once Again you Don't See The Light!

They Keep Saying We Don't Need Hardly Any Bucks Left Come Post Hunt Counts!

So If The Lower The Buck To Doe Ratio's Even Lower Than They Are Now & Figure In All The Other Things That I Listed Above That'll Wipe Some Of Them Out,How Many We Gonna Have Left For Hunters The Following Season,GEEZUS!

The Data Is Fascinating?

We Are Gonna Lower Buck Numbers & You're Fascinated By It?

I'd Like To See Something Done That Would Give The Younger/New Hunters A Better Chance At A Buck!

This BS Excuse Of The Bucks Wasting Space On The Landscape Ain't Gonna Work With Me!

Now a 4-5 Year Old Buck Is Labeled As Mature!

Well,They Ain't Lieing There,That's As Mature As You'll Find In This Mis-Managed State!

Please Keep The Podcasts Coming!

Can't Wait To Hear The Same Thing,Again & Again!
 
Bux!

You've Heard Me Say For Decades!

Let's Do Something To Raise Total Deer Numbers!

I'm All For Change!

Let's Make Some Smart Changes!

At this point I can’t really begin to think most hunters in the field are satisfied as things currently sit. In all honesty, I think if a guy was seeing 250+ does during the season, they would run into a buck for them to shoot at eventually. As it is now, I assume many guys go several consecutive years before they see 250 deer total during their time hunting.

I’m really ready to try a new approach. I’m fine with less bucks on the landscape, if the idea actually works. Because what we’ve been doing for the last 30+ years hasn’t been working. If giving guys more opportunities puts more deer on the mountain, I’m all for it. Remember, 50% of the fawns born are bucks. If you have a shiz load of does out there, you have half a shiz load of bucks being born every June. At some point those numbers could add up.
 
If you’re claiming these ideas are “the same thing again and again” you are truly insane. Like, totally bat shpoop crazy insane.

The ideas being pitched by these guys have not happening in my 30+ years hunting in Utah. Ever.

I too am ready for something new. Something other than a focus on antler size and high buck to doe ratios that drag on population productivity when discussing herd health.
 
I am going to listen to this podcast but before I do, I will give an opinion and here it is:

Low buck to doe ratios equals piss poor hunting.

Q. What is the current buck to doe ratio in region G?
 
You Saying There's Too high Of Buck To Doe Ratio's On General Units?

If You Are?

I'm Calling BULLSSHHITT!

I'm All For Change!

Let's Make Some SMART Changes Shall We?



If you’re claiming these ideas are “the same thing again and again” you are truly insane. Like, totally bat shpoop crazy insane.

The ideas being pitched by these guys have not happening in my 30+ years hunting in Utah. Ever.

I too am ready for something new. Something other than a focus on antler size and high buck to doe ratios that drag on population productivity when discussing herd health.
 
I’m not saying anything. I haven’t done the research and I wasn’t a guest on the podcast.

But I promise you this, these guys know more about mule deer than you could ever dream bessy. It might be worth listening more than talking every once in a while.
 
I Listened!

Not Before You Did This Time But I Listened!

Not Much Different Than The Other Podcast That You Took In As GOSPEL!

Yup,There You Go,These Guys Know Everything,They've Got Some Podcasts!

Should Be Another One Out Soon!

What Really Cracks Me Up Is When They Bring Farmer Dan In To The Picture!



I’m not saying anything. I haven’t done the research and I wasn’t a guest on the podcast.

But I promise you this, these guys know more about mule deer than you could ever dream bessy. It might be worth listening more than talking every once in a while.
 
That’s not what they are saying.

Like I’ve said before, listen for yourself. Don’t listen to the guy that is going to do his darndest to just yell lies and shout nonsensical bull crap to try and get people to ignore it and tune out.

Bessy, we know your opinion. Time to be quiet and let the adults talk.
 
So KING Niller?

They Didn't Say All These Excessive Bucks We've Got In This State Are Just Taking Up Landscape & They're Un-Needed & Worthless?



That’s not what they are saying.

Like I’ve said before, listen for yourself. Don’t listen to the guy that is going to do his darndest to just yell lies and shout nonsensical bull crap to try and get people to ignore it and tune out.

Bessy, we know your opinion. Time to be quiet and let the adults talk.
 
The Changes are Many & Some of you will Think they are HARSH!

You're Right!

The Extended Archery Hunt will Come To an End & Now!

The Late Muzz Tags are Gone as Well!

For CFS We Don't have the Deer Numbers for these kinda BS Hunts for GAWDS Sakes!

Hunting Big Game Continuously & Overlapped From Mid-August through January/February with No Relaxation Time for the Deer Herd No Longer Happens!

Not Every TARD in this State Gets a Tag Every Year!

I Hate it as much as anybody,but the Inflation of Hunters outnumber the number of Harvest-able Deer we can Harvest each year!

It is Now a 50,000.00 Fine on the very first offense when you're caught Off-Roading Your F'N Wheelers & Side X Sides in Closed Areas/Primitive/Private Property without Permission!

On Your 2nd Offense 150,000.00 Fine,Confiscation of your Wheeler/Side X Side,Your Rig/Truck You Pulled it to the Mountain With & 1 Year in Jail and Your Hunting Rights are Revoked 50 States wide for Life!

Trespassers get the same Treatment as Listed above!

Poachers on the very first offense will be Fined 150,00.00,pay full replacement price of the Animal they Illegally took,All Hunting Gear/Vehicles Confiscated & Auctioned off with that Money going back to the DWR to Help Prosecute more Poachers & Fencing,Hunting Privileges Revoked forever in all 50 States with 2 Years of Free Meals down at the Local Jail Cell!

I'm Helping PUNK on this one:Baiting Deer/Big Game of any Kind Lands you a Free Stay with Bubba for 6 Months,You'll be Banned from all Hunting in all 50 States for Life along with a 25,000.00 Fine!

Wasting Deer/ Wildlife of any Kind will get You the Same Treatment as Listed above!

Deer Management Will be Based on Total Number of Deer & Not Buck to Doe Ratio's alone,Deer Counts will be Proven to the Best We can Count them,Not Guesstimated,Not Exaggerated And NOT Lied about Fake,Phony,F'N Elevated Numbers of Deer that Don't Exist!

When We Notice Deer Declining in Units below satisfactory numbers,there will be Tags/Permits Cut Immediately,not years down the road when it's too late.

Sorry but I just couldn’t help myself HAHA!!!

The above was copied from Elk Assassins iconic manifesto. AKA HELL F&N RIGHT
 
Well Niller!

Thanks For Not Gettin Your Blood Pressure Up SKY HIGH Like You Did In The Last podcast Thread!

Carry On!

I'm Gonna Play One More Song & I'm Out!
 
They Are Basically Saying We've Got So Many Deer On The Landscape We Need To Get Rid Of/KILL More Bucks!

Them Bucks Are Taking Up Landscape & The Rest Of The Herd Is Gonna Starve To Death If We Don't Kill Them!
😂 I can't wait to draw a buck tag in Utah...sooo many Bucks they need to be thinned out!🤣 I guess everything I've read and seen is false!
 
I am going to listen to this podcast but before I do, I will give an opinion and here it is:

Low buck to doe ratios equals piss poor hunting.

Q. What is the current buck to doe ratio in region G?
B TO D ratio only tells part of the story.

Simple question...

Would you rather have A: 1000 deer with a 15 buck to 100 doe ratio or
B: 500 deer with 25 buck to 100 doe ratio?
 
Let's Start Doing Something SMART To Raise The Total Deer Numbers!

If We Get In A Situation Where We Get Too Many Bucks On The Landscape That Won't Be Hard To Fix/Manage!




B TO D ratio only tells part of the story.

Simple question...

Would you rather have A: 1000 deer with a 15 buck to 100 doe ratio or
B: 500 deer with 25 buck to 100 doe ratio?
 
I respect those guys on the podcast and appreciate the research and information they are providing. It is good stuff and educational for sure.

I will throw out two more opinions;

1. I think the predator factor is overblown. Predators are territorial. Whether it is cougars, wolves, coyotes or lions in Africa. Therefore there will only be so many in a geographical area because their competition will chase them away or kill them.

2. I think the competition with elk is underrated. When elk take over a prime canyon or basin and “displace” deer, the deer have to move out and become more vulnerable to hunting, predators, inferior nutrition, roadkill etc. No self respecting mature buck or any deer likes to be close to a bunch of noisy bugling elk that I have seen if they have a choice but that is just what I have noticed in general.
 
It’s funny that there are guys that mock the idea that over-inflated buck:doe ratios reduce herd productivity, and then at the same time they scratch their heads and wonder why the deer herd is struggling to bounce back on the Henry’s.

There are guys that long for the good old days when a 15:100 buck to doe ratio was absolutely unheard of, but scream and drop crocodile tears if a general season unit got that low today.

Oh well. I guess we can keep cutting tags and see if that finally works somehow. Status quo is what some demand. I’m ready to try something new, but I also like mule deer and enjoy hunting them. Kind of crazy for a hunting forum, I know!
 
Great podcast, I enjoy hearing from the experts…the same old BS on this site can get pretty stale.

For those too stubborn to listen…

The connection between high buck:doe ratios and decreased productivity (ie fawns recruited into the population) comes down to skinnier does. The biologists are discussing their good data that high buck:doe leads to less fat on the does, smaller birthweight fawns, and less of those fawns making it to maturity.

I have not read the papers to see if those herds were at carrying capacity but I they are describing some of the major peaks of population growth..which is exactly what is needed now.
 
What You You Don't Understand Is There Has Not Been An Over Abundance Of Deer Numbers On The Henries Since It Was Re-Opened!

Seems Like Everybody Decided It Was Mostly Predators On The Henries Not Too Long Ago,What Happened With That?

Now It's Too Many Bucks On The Henries?

Ya!

If you Take The New BS Buck To Doe Ratio's They Wanna Implement & Push Through Then I Guess You Can Say There's Too Many Bucks & They Can Issue More Tags!

I'm Waiting For Some SMARTSTER To Say There's Too Many Bucks On The Henries & They're Taking Up Too Much Landscape! On A Mountain Range Of That Size!

FOR GAWDS SAKES!

Do Something To Increase The Numbers Of Deer In DRATville & Then Raise Your Number Of TAG Sales!

Instead Of VICE-VERSA!

Is It That Hard To Figure Out?











It’s funny that there are guys that mock the idea that over-inflated buck:doe ratios reduce herd productivity, and then at the same time they scratch their heads and wonder why the deer herd is struggling to bounce back on the Henry’s.

There are guys that long for the good old days when a 15:100 buck to doe ratio was absolutely unheard of, but scream and drop crocodile tears if a general season unit got that low today.

Oh well. I guess we can keep cutting tags and see if that finally works somehow. Status quo is what some demand. I’m ready to try something new, but I also like mule deer and enjoy hunting them. Kind of crazy for a hunting forum, I know!
 
DOUBLE THEM TAGS!

JUST DOUBLE THEM!

Ya!

We Didn't Do JACK F'N SQUAT To Raise Deer Numbers Nor Numbers Of Bucks But DOUBLE THEM TAGS!

I Sure Hope They Do It On The Unit That Was Mentioned!

That's One Place I Won't Be!

But It Would Be A GREAT Place For Them To Do A Trial & Error With The BS They Are Dreaming Up Now!

I Say GIT-R-DONE!

And Remember:

The PUMPKINS Might Be Smaller But There Will Be More Of Them & That'll Surely Take Care Of Them Hated Bucks That Are Taking up Landscape Space!
 
I’m sorry if you don’t understand what is being said Bessy. I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

But again, I apologize if this is too much for you to comprehend. You keep using language and arguments that were never used by others, so it’s clear that you either just don’t get it, or you just aren’t willing to be honest.

I can tolerate stupidity. I’ve got no time for dishonesty. Which camp you in?
 
I respect those guys on the podcast and appreciate the research and information they are providing. It is good stuff and educational for sure.

I will throw out two more opinions;

1. I think the predator factor is overblown. Predators are territorial. Whether it is cougars, wolves, coyotes or lions in Africa. Therefore there will only be so many in a geographical area because their competition will chase them away or kill them.

2. I think the competition with elk is underrated. When elk take over a prime canyon or basin and “displace” deer, the deer have to move out and become more vulnerable to hunting, predators, inferior nutrition, roadkill etc. No self respecting mature buck or any deer likes to be close to a bunch of noisy bugling elk that I have seen if they have a choice but that is just what I have noticed in general.
This!!
 
I respect those guys on the podcast and appreciate the research and information they are providing. It is good stuff and educational for sure.

I will throw out two more opinions;

1. I think the predator factor is overblown. Predators are territorial. Whether it is cougars, wolves, coyotes or lions in Africa. Therefore there will only be so many in a geographical area because their competition will chase them away or kill them.

2. I think the competition with elk is underrated. When elk take over a prime canyon or basin and “displace” deer, the deer have to move out and become more vulnerable to hunting, predators, inferior nutrition, roadkill etc. No self respecting mature buck or any deer likes to be close to a bunch of noisy bugling elk that I have seen if they have a choice but that is just what I have noticed in general.
Predators expand their territory for many reasons. Population growth being one of them. If there’s too many in an area, they will take up residence in areas there are less to compete with.

As for the elk thing, there’s plenty of mountain range sections that are absolutely void of elk. They also had good-great summer and winter range areas and the deer are still struggling to grow any kind of numbers that push the needle upward. The elk can be to blame in some areas. But you can’t point the finger at them state wide.
 
The podcast briefly addresses the elk-deer competition theory. They willingly admitted they don’t know the answer to that question.

They cited three different studies in three different states that all looked at different things and came to different conclusions. (One being in Utah in the Book Cliffs that showed some benefit of fawns being born near elk.) So basically, if you have an opinion on this topic, there is likely a study to support it. That said, that brings more questions than actual answers. While acknowledging that logic suggests more mouths to feed is competition, they specifically said we don’t have enough info to know one way or another for sure.

They did say that type of study could be done. It would necessitate a very large reduction in elk numbers on multiple units to be able to compare enough data to come to any conclusion. I’m not sure many hunters are going to be up for what it would take to conduct that study.
 
I am excited to listen to this podcast later today and see what they have to say. After reading through this comment section and the comment section on the pod cast I posted........

Am I the only one who skims past all of BESSY's comments? I just cant anymore. It gets old real fast. I almost feel like its TRITITS alter ego....HMMMM??
 
I can't remember the last time he posted something useful to a discussion. He's usually just yelling loudly trying to distract from the topic at hand as it goes against a core belief for him. The more mud and poop he can make people wade through, the less they will pay attention to the topic at hand.

So yes, very much like the alter ego you mentioned!
 
"B TO D ratio only tells part of the story.

Simple question...

Would you rather have A: 1000 deer with a 15 buck to 100 doe ratio or
B: 500 deer with 25 buck to 100 doe ratio?"


Let's Start Doing Something SMART To Raise The Total Deer Numbers!

If We Get In A Situation Where We Get Too Many Bucks On The Landscape That Won't Be Hard To Fix/Manage!
So, you picked A.
Good for you, that's progress. maybe some of this is starting to sink in.
 
Predators expand their territory for many reasons. Population growth being one of them. If there’s too many in an area, they will take up residence in areas there are less to compete with.

As for the elk thing, there’s plenty of mountain range sections that are absolutely void of elk. They also had good-great summer and winter range areas and the deer are still struggling to grow any kind of numbers that push the needle upward. The elk can be to blame in some areas. But you can’t point the finger at them state wide.
True on both accounts, You can’t blame elk in areas where there are none.

With the predators however, I submit they already expanded their range as far as it could possibly go in Utah, at least twenty or thirty years ago, with the exception of bears which are not really predators but omnivores.
 
True on both accounts, You can’t blame elk in areas where there are none.

With the predators however, I submit they already expanded their range as far as it could possibly go in Utah, at least twenty or thirty years ago, with the exception of bears which are not really predators but omnivores.
I bet hours old calf elk and fawn deer would argue if they qualify as “predators” or not.

Lions are definitely expanding. I’m running into lions in places I haven’t seen any trace of them in 20+ years spending time in the areas.
 
With the predators however, I submit they already expanded their range as far as it could possibly go in Utah, at least twenty or thirty years ago, with the exception of bears which are not really predators but omnivores.

Oh man, it would be good to review the studies being done in Utah right now on fawn predation and cause of mortality.

Bears absolutely are predators, and the explosion of the bear population the last 40 years is a contributing factor to the mule deer dilemma. This has been proven, not hypothesized.
 
I don't think black bears kill as many critters as they steal.
Lions kill, bears take the kill over prompting the lion to kill again.
 
I am not buying that bear predation on fawns is much of a factor except in a few localized areas. You can’t have bear predation where bears do not exist
 
I am not buying that bear predation on fawns is much of a factor except in a few localized areas. You can’t have bear predation where bears do not exist
They exist in a lot of Utah. Pretty much everywhere east of I-15 you can find bears. There’s a lot of collar data from bears, deer and elk to support the theory that bears do a number on new born ungulates.
 
In general they are inefficient predators. Yes they will eat fawns every chance they get.

Look at the lasal. High bear density, good numbers of deer and good numbers of elk. High success rate on all three hunts for deer last year from what I remember seeing here.

Also, name a county in the state of Utah where mountain lions did not occur twenty years previously to now.
 
OK Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!

Here's My Proposal:

There's Gonna Be Some New Hunts!

And There's Gonna Be Some Of The Existing Units Used For These New Hunts!

The First New Hunt Will Be The ANYTHING GOES Hunt!

It Will Be Tried On The Manti Unit & 2 Other Units Of Your Choice,3 Units Total!

There Will Be At A Minimum DOUBLE THE TAGS Or UN-LIMITED Tags On Them 3 Units,That Way You & Brock Are Happy!

These New Hunts Will Be On a 10 Year Study/Trial & When You Pick This Hunt This Is The Only 3 Units You Can Hunt Deer On In That 10 Year Period!

If Your Units Are Shot Out In 2 Years TOUGH TITTY!

You Ain't Moving Camp!

The 2nd New Hunt Will Be A HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt!

All Limited Entry Units Will Be Thrown In To A Hat With Public Attending To Make Sure It Was Legit & Fair!

3 LE Units Drawn!

Them 3 Units Are For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Only!

The Rest Of The LE Units Stay As STATUS QUO For The Guys That Like Them Units & Have A Bunch Of Points Built Up!

Yup!

3 GENERAL Units & 3 LE Units Gonna Get Some Different Attention!

Once You Try & Draw For Either One Of These Hunts You're Locked Forever How Long It Takes To Draw,YOU ARE NOT JUMPING Ship!

And If You Don't Like This Stay With The Other General Or LE Hunts Already In Place!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Units Will Be Managed For Top Notch Quality Bucks & You're Not Gonna Add Tags Just Because Some F'N OPPORTUNISTS Want To Destroy Them!

That's What The ANYTHING GOES HUNTS Are For!

You & Brock Can Manage Them 3 Units Any F'N Way You Want To I Don't Care How You Do It!

DON'T COME A BAWLING Though!

The 3 HUNT OF A LIFETIME UNITS WILL BE MANAGED FOR QUALITY BUCKS,If That Means Only So Many Tags Can Be Issued/Drawn That's How It Is!

Fine If This Isn't Your Cup Of Tea Go Hunt Manti & The Other 2 Units!

10 Years Should Be Plenty Of Time On ANYTHING GOES Hunts To Improve Them With You & Brocks New Management Plan!

If You & Brocks New Management Plan Happens To Prove Some Kind Of A Miracle On The 3 ANYTHING GOES Units After That 10 Year Period You Can Make recommendations For More Hunts Just Like Them!

You'll be Applying For This New HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt With Zero Points,You're Not Gonna Be Using Old Points For A New Hunt!

That Or We'll Just Say PISS On The Points & Have A Random Draw!

You See there Niller!

You Get You & Brocks Opportunity & Others Get Theirs!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts Will Be Limited & Them Hunts Ain't For Everybody!

The ANYTHING GOES Hunts Are For The OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Every Year!

Thought I'd wait Till The Last Here Before I Ruffled Feathers Again!

To Apply For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts It'll Cost You 2500.00 If You Draw!

If You Don't Like That Go Hunt With Niller & The Boys!

The UDWR Still Needs Their Money,Hence Fewer Tags On THE HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts We Wanna Keep The DWR Happy So You're Gonna Pay To Play!

The Good News Is If You Don't Like It You Can Go Hunt With Brock & Niller!

Everybody Gives A Little & There's Still Something For Everybody!

Please Reply Back With A Blood Pressure Reading!

Hope You're Having A GREAT Day Niller!
 
I was going to read that until you lied again, and it didn't take long. Nobody is advocating for anything goes. Literally, not a single person. You are not worth reading any more until you stop being dishonest.

So not sure what you said after that, and I don't really care! I already told you I have no time for dishonesty.
 
You can’t have bear predation where bears do not exist

Of course! I agree with that. Tell me which of our deer units in Utah don't have bears.

The data on the Book Cliffs on this topic should be more than startling for anyone that cares about mule deer.

You are absolutely correct that different areas have different issues with these factors. That is what is being said by the smart people in the room, then the dummies that won't actually educate themselves just scream for more tag cuts. There might even be units where some tag cuts are needed from time to time. I sure would want to hear that from someone that is more concerned about the deer herd than they are measuring inches, though.

The experts are not blaming any of this on one factor, including bears, no matter how much someone shouts it loudly and nonsensically. They have openly said the exact opposite, actually. It's a combination of a lot of things and we need to go in different directions than we have the last 30 years if we want to combat it. Some claim they don't like the status quo, and then piss and moan when something against the status quo is brought up because it offends their sensitive emotions.
 
Hey Tough Guy!

Name It What You Want To!

I Guess The Name I Picked Isn't Allowable Or Politically Correct Enough Thanks to All The PUSSSIES We Have Around Here!



I was going to read that until you lied again, and it didn't take long. Nobody is advocating for anything goes. Literally, not a single person. You are not worth reading any more until you stop being dishonest.

So not sure what you said after that, and I don't really care! I already told you I have no time for dishonesty.
 
I didn't know you mentioned the Pauns, because I stopped reading after you lied again.

But I do love the Pauns, no doubt. Even if I'll never get to hunt it again.
 
You Won't get to Hunt it Again!

But Just Think Of All The Opportunity You'll have With Brock!

I'm Recommending Opening It A Up For A Free For All & PISS On That DOUBLE THE TAGS BS!



I didn't know you mentioned the Pauns, because I stopped reading after you lied again.

But I do love the Pauns, no doubt. Even if I'll never get to hunt it again.
 
Of course! I agree with that. Tell me which of our deer units in Utah don't have bears.

The data on the Book Cliffs on this topic should be more than startling for anyone that cares about mule deer.

You are absolutely correct that different areas have different issues with these factors. That is what is being said by the smart people in the room, then the dummies that won't actually educate themselves just scream for more tag cuts. There might even be units where some tag cuts are needed from time to time. I sure would want to hear that from someone that is more concerned about the deer herd than they are measuring inches, though.

The experts are not blaming any of this on one factor, including bears, no matter how much someone shouts it loudly and nonsensically. They have openly said the exact opposite, actually. It's a combination of a lot of things and we need to go in different directions than we have the last 30 years if we want to combat it. Some claim they don't like the status quo, and then piss and moan when something against the status quo is brought up because it offends their sensitive emotions.
My guess is that bears don’t exist in significant numbers to have any real effect on deer predation in the northern half or the western half of the state. I can’t speak to the bookcliffs or other southern units.

The WB has done some very good things lately like banning trail cams, baiting and restricting muzzy scopes. Coincidentally those ideas were in the MANIFESTO.

Now, if the WB would adopt Article 7, I believe in the MANIFESTO, the one restricting rifle scopes to 4X, I would be cautiously optimistic about the future of deer herd health and hunting in the great state of Utah.
 
Bears Will Take A Few Fawns!

Not Nearly As Many As Niller & The Boys Will Claim!

But It Sounds Major On A Podcast Or Two!
 
Several Years Ago Brisket Disease Took A Perty Good Hit On Some Cattle Here In The High Country!

Ranchers Screamed Bears!

I Personally Looked At One Of The Dead Cows!

Not A Scratch On That SUM BITCCH!

But If You Let Em Sit Till They're Ripe You Can Usually Say A Bear Was Eating It So It Must Of Killed It As Well!

They Were Compensated!
 
So?

Back To DOUBLE THE TAGS,JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS!

If Somebody-Else In A Podcast Would Have Said It, You Woulda Said You Learned Something Again!



About as good as all the rest of your ideas.

You’re the only person I’ve ever heard propose. Seems like a bad idea to me, but that goes with the territory, apparently.
 
OK Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!

Here's My Proposal:

There's Gonna Be Some New Hunts!

And There's Gonna Be Some Of The Existing Units Used For These New Hunts!

The First New Hunt Will Be The ANYTHING GOES Hunt!

It Will Be Tried On The Manti Unit & 2 Other Units Of Your Choice,3 Units Total!

There Will Be At A Minimum DOUBLE THE TAGS Or UN-LIMITED Tags On Them 3 Units,That Way You & Brock Are Happy!

These New Hunts Will Be On a 10 Year Study/Trial & When You Pick This Hunt This Is The Only 3 Units You Can Hunt Deer On In That 10 Year Period!

If Your Units Are Shot Out In 2 Years TOUGH TITTY!

You Ain't Moving Camp!

The 2nd New Hunt Will Be A HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt!

All Limited Entry Units Will Be Thrown In To A Hat With Public Attending To Make Sure It Was Legit & Fair!

3 LE Units Drawn!

Them 3 Units Are For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Only!

The Rest Of The LE Units Stay As STATUS QUO For The Guys That Like Them Units & Have A Bunch Of Points Built Up!

Yup!

3 GENERAL Units & 3 LE Units Gonna Get Some Different Attention!

Once You Try & Draw For Either One Of These Hunts You're Locked Forever How Long It Takes To Draw,YOU ARE NOT JUMPING Ship!

And If You Don't Like This Stay With The Other General Or LE Hunts Already In Place!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Units Will Be Managed For Top Notch Quality Bucks & You're Not Gonna Add Tags Just Because Some F'N OPPORTUNISTS Want To Destroy Them!

That's What The ANYTHING GOES HUNTS Are For!

You & Brock Can Manage Them 3 Units Any F'N Way You Want To I Don't Care How You Do It!

DON'T COME A BAWLING Though!

The 3 HUNT OF A LIFETIME UNITS WILL BE MANAGED FOR QUALITY BUCKS,If That Means Only So Many Tags Can Be Issued/Drawn That's How It Is!

Fine If This Isn't Your Cup Of Tea Go Hunt Manti & The Other 2 Units!

10 Years Should Be Plenty Of Time On ANYTHING GOES Hunts To Improve Them With You & Brocks New Management Plan!

If You & Brocks New Management Plan Happens To Prove Some Kind Of A Miracle On The 3 ANYTHING GOES Units After That 10 Year Period You Can Make recommendations For More Hunts Just Like Them!

You'll be Applying For This New HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt With Zero Points,You're Not Gonna Be Using Old Points For A New Hunt!

That Or We'll Just Say PISS On The Points & Have A Random Draw!

You See there Niller!

You Get You & Brocks Opportunity & Others Get Theirs!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts Will Be Limited & Them Hunts Ain't For Everybody!

The ANYTHING GOES Hunts Are For The OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Every Year!

Thought I'd wait Till The Last Here Before I Ruffled Feathers Again!

To Apply For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts It'll Cost You 2500.00 If You Draw!

If You Don't Like That Go Hunt With Niller & The Boys!

The UDWR Still Needs Their Money,Hence Fewer Tags On THE HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts We Wanna Keep The DWR Happy So You're Gonna Pay To Play!

The Good News Is If You Don't Like It You Can Go Hunt With Brock & Niller!

Everybody Gives A Little & There's Still Something For Everybody!

Please Reply Back With A Blood Pressure Reading!

Hope You're Having A GREAT Day Niller!


Screenshot 2024-04-03 225514.png



@Vanilla, Feel free to use this meme anytime you want. lol
 
True on both accounts, You can’t blame elk in areas where there are none.

With the predators however, I submit they already expanded their range as far as it could possibly go in Utah, at least twenty or thirty years ago, with the exception of bears which are not really predators but omnivores.
With the exception of the Henry's (yes elk do exist there)
Name me one true deer range that elk don't exist?
 
There is little doubt in my opinion elk have drastically effected the deer numbers of Utah.
You only need to look as the elk numbers increased on (said unit) the deer numbers decreased and now we have what WINTER RANGE the state has to offer for the amount of ungulets that can survive on (said unit).
And yes the fawns and does take it in the shorts from bucks and elk, you don't need to spend much time on WINTER RANGE to witness bucks and elk driving fawns and does off of valuable feed on the WINTER RANGE.
 
For a second I thought I should give a piece but then read the thread and realized it was an Utah thread. Carry on
 
And The Opportunists That Don't Claim To Be Opportunists Start Popping Out Of The Woodwork Even More!

I Thought You Were Smarter Than What You Posted On Post # 58 Niller?

If Somebody Someway Somehow Did Come Up With A Plan For A Couple Of Trophy Units That Did Start Producing Some Good Quality Bucks You'd Be BAWLING Like Babies Wanting In On The Opportunity To Destroy It!

Carry On With Your BULLSSHITT Boys!

And After You Boys Get The Tags DOUBLED Let Me Know How That Works Out For You A Couple Years Down The Road!

KEEP POUNDIN YOUR PISSCUTTERS,IT'S THE DRATville Way!
 
As usual, when you people argue about the buck to doe ratios and tag numbers, you leave out a whole generation of bucks, some which are NEVER counted as bucks! The buck to doe ratios (and fawn to doe ratios) are counted early winter AFTER the hunts. But by the time the next hunts come around, the male fawns born 2 years earlier will finally grow antlers and, if they survive, will be part of the following year's buck to doe ratios not the fawn to doe ratios! In other words, we DON'T go into this year's hunts/tag numbers using last year's numbers.

Edited: I forgot that those two year old bucks were actually counted. They just weren't counted as bucks while they were alive! They show up in the road kills, predation stats, winter kills, and of course, the harvest stats. They are, in fact the PISSCUTTERS Bess is so worried about! And they should be removed from the genepools if they aren't wary or smart enough to avoid humans or cars or lions or deep snow.
 
Last edited:
It’s funny that there are guys that mock the idea that over-inflated buck:doe ratios reduce herd productivity, and then at the same time they scratch their heads and wonder why the deer herd is struggling to bounce back on the Henry’s.

There are guys that long for the good old days when a 15:100 buck to doe ratio was absolutely unheard of, but scream and drop crocodile tears if a general season unit got that low today.

Oh well. I guess we can keep cutting tags and see if that finally works somehow. Status quo is what some demand. I’m ready to try something new, but I also like mule deer and enjoy hunting them. Kind of crazy for a hunting forum, I know!



The same guys that will squeak about "the golden years",I have a simple question.

What age class did we manage for in 1965(year chosen because it was in middle of "golden age").

What buck to doe ratio were we managing for?


I'm always amazed that "the golden age" is the standard.

An age where the landscape was managed for sheep.

Math seems simple, more deer=more bucks.

More bucks COULD mean more mature bucks.

Or.

Let's keep on trying to artificially create 40" on every switchback cuz that's the only thing we remember about the"golden age".
 
In general they are inefficient predators. Yes they will eat fawns every chance they get.

Look at the lasal. High bear density, good numbers of deer and good numbers of elk. High success rate on all three hunts for deer last year from what I remember seeing here.

Also, name a county in the state of Utah where mountain lions did not occur twenty years previously to now.
I didn’t say anything about a county being void of them. I said areas were void of them.
 
Kind Of Amazing Isn't It Hossy?

How Was The Hunting That Good Back Then Without All This BS Management Of Today?

This Was Before Your BS Buck To Doe Management That Hasn't Ever F'N Worked!

I Expect Some Answers?

You're Part Way Right With:

Math seems simple, more deer=more bucks.

More bucks COULD mean more mature bucks.

And With Some Proper Management My Friend You Are A GENIUS!



The same guys that will squeak about "the golden years",I have a simple question.

What age class did we manage for in 1965(year chosen because it was in middle of "golden age").

What buck to doe ratio were we managing for?


I'm always amazed that "the golden age" is the standard.

An age where the landscape was managed for sheep.

Math seems simple, more deer=more bucks.

More bucks COULD mean more mature bucks.

Or.

Let's keep on trying to artificially create 40" on every switchback cuz that's the only thing we remember about the"golden age".
 
Kind Of Amazing Isn't It Hossy?

How Was The Hunting That Good Back Then Without All This BS Management Of Today?

This Was Before Your BS Buck To Doe Management That Hasn't Ever F'N Worked!

I Expect Some Answers?

You're Part Way Right With:

Math seems simple, more deer=more bucks.

More bucks COULD mean more mature bucks.

And With Some Proper Management My Friend You Are A GENIUS!


And there it is again.

You just admitted there wasn't management, then you turn around and are calling for more.

About 2.5million less people and no I-15 is the #1 and 2
 
Healthy does drop bigger and more healthy fawns that have a better chance of survival, which gives a better chance at increasing deer numbers.

And all that has nothing to do with how many inches of antler are on top of any buck’s head.

Again to many focus on bucks and buck quality.
Until we focus on fawns and does, we will never increase the deer herd and that means safety, security, food and water.
 
The same guys that will squeak about "the golden years",I have a simple question.

What age class did we manage for in 1965(year chosen because it was in middle of "golden age").

What buck to doe ratio were we managing for?


I'm always amazed that "the golden age" is the standard.

An age where the landscape was managed for sheep.

Math seems simple, more deer=more bucks.

More bucks COULD mean more mature bucks.

Or.

Let's keep on trying to artificially create 40" on every switchback cuz that's the only thing we remember about the"golden age".
Would you take 1967 numbers? (I don't have a 1965 proclamation.) What specifically would you like to know? You just might be surprised about how much "BS" management they were doing!
 
I drew a late Zion muzzy tag five years ago and burned 15 points I think.

A cold front moved through about five days before it opened and the locals told me the deer were on the move.

They were. I counted at least 150 does before I saw one with antlers. It was unbelievable.

That kind of ruined my appetite for low B to D ratios. There had to be good bucks somewhere. Just couldn’t figure out where or how to get there. Record heat wave during the hunt didn’t help.
 
Just Think!

Them Damned Bucks Are Just Taking Up Landscape Space & We Don't Even Need As Many As We Have!

I drew a late Zion muzzy tag five years ago and burned 15 points I think.

A cold front moved through about five days before it opened and the locals told me the deer were on the move.

They were. I counted at least 150 does before I saw one with antlers. It was unbelievable.

That kind of ruined my appetite for low B to D ratios. There had to be good bucks somewhere. Just couldn’t figure out where or how to get there. Record heat wave during the hunt didn’t help.
 
Hey efa?

You ever Notice How Few Of hunters Don't Know/Realize How Much Damage It's Done?

It Ain't The Only Factor But It's One Of The Top Issues!
I ain't worried about the hunters not knowing. It's the biologists that aren't noticing I'm concerned about! In the 2 podcasts we've heard, not one word about cheatgrass. They hint around it by stating the feed is less nutritious, but they don't say what's causing it other than the weather/droughts.
 
I ain't worried about the hunters not knowing. It's the biologists that aren't noticing I'm concerned about! In the 2 podcasts we've heard, not one word about cheatgrass. They hint around it by stating the feed is less nutritious, but they don't say what's causing it other than the weather/droughts.
How could that be?
 
Just Think!

Them Damned Bucks Are Just Taking Up Landscape Space & We Don't Even Need As Many As We Have!
150 does to 1 buck. Looks like Brock and Niller already hit their goal on that unit lol

To be fair I did eventually see a dozen or so but nothing over 20”

So much for my once in a lifetime deer hunt
 
150 does to 1 buck. Looks like Brock and Niller already hit their goal on that unit lol

You are following elkassassin’s example of telling lies. Not sure what Brock’s goals are. I don’t know him. I’ve never heard him say that though. I surely don’t want that.

But proceed. It makes for some good stories and lets us know who is worth listening to and who isn’t.
 
You are following elkassassin’s example of telling lies. Not sure what Brock’s goals are. I don’t know him. I’ve never heard him say that though. I surely don’t want that.

But proceed. It makes for some good stories and lets us know who is worth listening to and who isn’t.
I apologize for that line, it was unfair.

What is your belief, goal for the ratio. If you had to pick one ratio for every GS unit in the state, what would it be?

Mine is 20 to 30 B to D and I don’t believe that ratio would result in a lower quality hunt
 
I apologize for that line, it was unfair.

What is your belief, goal for the ratio. If you had to pick one ratio for every GS unit in the state, what would it be?

Mine is 20 to 30 B to D and I don’t believe that ratio would result in a lower quality hunt
Nobody is saying a 20-30 b-d ratio wouldn't make a good hunting unit, the data they are seeing shows that the higher the B-D ratio is the lower the fawn recruitment will be.

So more bucks means less fawns making it to maturity, that is an issue when you are trying to grow the deer herds like we currently are trying to do all across the state.

Personally I am not certain I buy into this data yet, I would like to see some more info about it as it doesn’t quite add up to me, which Brock says it doesn't realky make sense in the first podcast. It would make sense to me if the area was at carrying capacity, but that is not what is happening.

I would like an explanation as to how the few extra bucks are killing off fawns in a significant fashion, ir what is causing it to happen.
 
I’m not a huge fan of the buck:doe ratio only management. I think it’s a factor to consider, but as illustrated above, I’d prefer 4000 deer with 400 bucks (9:100) over 400 deer with 120 bucks (31:100). I’d take more deer any day of the week because that is what we need if we all want the hunting we desire. And a lot more goes into that than just the buck:doe ratio.

All that said, there is real data out there showing that higher buck to doe ratios make herds less productive. It might result in larger bucks on the landscape (at least for a time), but based upon these studies it seems to stunt and hold back the recruitment of fawns, which if we want more deer, we need more fawns, not more bucks.

You’ll hear people shout about Double Tags!!! Or how about this one? Way To Many Bucks On The Landscape So shoot Em All F’N Right!!!! However, nobody is actually saying that garbage. Only someone trying to deter people from participating in a real conversation about this stuff.

It’s not about a 9:100 buck:ratio, carrying capacity, or bears all by itself. But all those things ( and many others) stacked up seem to be keeping our herds from coming back. So we can try to address it, or we can still just keep managing hunters hoping that magically one day it will actually work. I don’t think it will, but it seems that is all some are willing to try.

I appreciate the question though betterlucky. I like the discussion and think we need more of it and way less shouting and irrationality.
 
Since Bess hasn't responded to my 1967 stats offer, I'll just do what I can to show how the deer were managed per the 1967 proclamation and the harvest stats.
-(1)-The whole state was open to either sex except a few Control units.
-(2)-The General Hunting season was either sex Oct 21-Oct 31.
-(3)- Archery Season was either sex Aug 26-Sep 10
-(4)- The resident hunting license sold for $5 and included a General deer hunting tag and you could just buy them OTC from the nearest sporting goods store or, in some cases, service stations or grocery stores. They were unlimited so you didn't have to get in a long line worrying about whether you'd get one or not. And you could buy them the night before the hunt or even during the hunt.
-(5)-In addition to your general deer tag, you could also buy a Control tag. Those were for specific units and had quotas.
-(6)-OR you could buy a statewide archery tag. Both the Control tags and the archery tags cost $5 and had to be applied for by mail and delivered to the DWR office no later than 5:00 pm Aug 21, 1967. (Any oversubscribed unit had a drawing.)
-(7)-Here's a good one! We had 77 hunting units! And many of them were regulated with Bucks Only, Early Seasons, Late Seasons, Antlerless, Short Seasons, Extended Seasons, Tribal Rules, and Separate Archery Seasons. Some had quotas and some didn't.
-(8)- There were no units managed for big bucks!

It took some reading just to sort the hunts out and apply for them. And the proclamations were printed on newspaper stock in color all folded up, which didn't make it easy to read (or print).

Now for the harvest stats: I'll just give you the totals:
Hunters Afield--172,584
Bucks Killed-----55,798
Does Killed------34,255
Total Deer Killed--90,053
That's a lot of deer killed! Did it cause the numbers to dive?
-Nope! 10 years later: 1977:
Hunters Afield---208,761
Bucks killed-----67,664
Does killed------751
Total Deer Killed--68,415

-20 years later: 1987:
Hunters afield---210,516
Bucks Killed-----66,515
Does Killed-----7,760
Total deer Killed---67,291
Fewer does killed made a difference, but the number of bucks killed made no difference at all. It wasn't until the bad winter of 1993 that we saw the numbers fall. And the numbers haven't come up since then because we started managing for trophy bucks and larger buck to doe ratios.

And so, we're now down to about 65,000 hunters afield and dropping. Not enough bucks? We need higher buck to doe ratios? "Slip sliding away"
 
Nobody is saying a 20-30 b-d ratio wouldn't make a good hunting unit, the data they are seeing shows that the higher the B-D ratio is the lower the fawn recruitment will be.

So more bucks means less fawns making it to maturity, that is an issue when you are trying to grow the deer herds like we currently are trying to do all across the state.

Personally I am not certain I buy into this data yet, I would like to see some more info about it as it doesn’t quite add up to me, which Brock says it doesn't realky make sense in the first podcast. It would make sense to me if the area was at carrying capacity, but that is not what is happening.

I would like an explanation as to how the few extra bucks are killing off fawns in a significant fashion, ir what is causing it to happen.
Simple! The bucks can easily outcompete the fawns and the does for food, space, shelter and water. They've used up all their fat while breeding and need to restore it quickly, so they push away with their antlers, any competition they have. And they can reach for food much higher than the fawns, so even if they aren't there, the fawns still can't get to the food. Even the does will push away their own fawns when push comes to shove! And when they do that, the cats and coyotes have an easy meal!
 
So, what I am hearing is there is so little resources in the habitat that the current amount of deer on the landscape are competing for food to the point where the bucks are shanking fawns with their antlers. So, fewer bucks will lead to more deer on a landscape when the resources already can't handle the deer that are there?
 
Ya!

That BS Of Having Too Many Bucks On The Landscape & Eating All The Feed So Nothing Else Can Eat It Is BULLSSHITT!

If We Are Really Down To This In Places Which We Sure The HELL: Ain't Here In The Region I Live In With The Total Of Deer Numbers Being Lower Than They Should Be Everywhere In The State It's Just Another Way To DOUBLE THE TAGS,JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS BS Management To Be Put In Place!

Like I Said,Try That BS On The Manti Unit For 5 Years & Then Nilly Can Get Back With Us On How That BS Management Worked!
 
I Wouldn't Argue With You If This Was Happening Everywhere But It Ain't!

Cats & Coyotes Don't Need An Easy Meal To Survive!

Add Coyotes Just Under Your Cheatgrass On The List efa!

Simple! The bucks can easily outcompete the fawns and the does for food, space, shelter and water. They've used up all their fat while breeding and need to restore it quickly, so they push away with their antlers, any competition they have. And they can reach for food much higher than the fawns, so even if they aren't there, the fawns still can't get to the food. Even the does will push away their own fawns when push comes to shove! And when they do that, the cats and coyotes have an easy meal!
 
Nobody is saying a 20-30 b-d ratio wouldn't make a good hunting unit, the data they are seeing shows that the higher the B-D ratio is the lower the fawn recruitment will be.

So more bucks means less fawns making it to maturity, that is an issue when you are trying to grow the deer herds like we currently are trying to do all across the state.

Personally I am not certain I buy into this data yet, I would like to see some more info about it as it doesn’t quite add up to me, which Brock says it doesn't realky make sense in the first podcast. It would make sense to me if the area was at carrying capacity, but that is not what is happening.

I would like an explanation as to how the few extra bucks are killing off fawns in a significant fashion, ir what is causing it to happen.
What is the factor that makes more bucks and less fawn recruitment? Never heard that.

Deer are deer no matter what sex. Managing to overall numbers seems to make sense. The game managers I've spoken with seem to think 25 to 33/100 is the range they would like to have.
 
Show me one single deer cheatgrass has killed.

Quit blaming the symptoms and get on to the disease.
 
What is the factor that makes more bucks and less fawn recruitment? Never heard that.

Deer are deer no matter what sex. Managing to overall numbers seems to make sense. The game managers I've spoken with seem to think 25 to 33/100 is the range they would like to have.
But That's Somebody That's Trying To Manage A Herd Somewhat Right!

In This State That Ain't Happening!

Just When you Mighta Heard & Seen The Most F'ED Up Management Ever They'll Throw You A Curve Ball For Even Worse Management!
 
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