$150 NR tickets for violating Wyoming Wilderness rule (12 tickets in 10 years)

BuzzH said:
Horrible law.

But before you say it, I'm not one bit interested in trying to change it.

There is no legal path forward, in particular since s.339 passed after the Taulman lawsuit. The state holds all the cards. The Federal and State court cases all side with State control of wildlife. When s.339 passed as federal law, it reaffirmed the rights of the States to discriminate against NR hunters any way they see fit.

So, the only other path forward is to repeal state statute and/or change the law. To do that, the only way would be to do 2 things:

1. Cut a deal with the outfitters by giving them a pool of outfitter sponsored tags, probably cost NR hunters half their tags.

2. Residents hunters are going to want something too, many of them like not seeing a NR hunter around every tree and support the law. That would mean 90-10 for deer, elk, and pronghorn.

What it would take to have any chance of repealing the law is NR DIY hunters being cut to 5% of the deer, elk, and pronghorn tags.

I won't speak for every NR hunter, but the ones I hunt with and know, they don't want to trade the ability to hunt wilderness for sacrificing a large percentage of their tags.

So, for those reasons, I have no interest in trying to repeal it, not enough upside, and plenty of downside.
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That all sounds completely reasonable.
 
@Buzz and other WY guys. When we pass the 90/10 for Deer/Lope we should also have that include a much higher minimum fee for the wilderness rule...

If anything this highlights that the law as written is not an adequate deterrent to preventing the crime as such we need that fine to higher risk.
 
wstrntines said:
Such a dumb law! I wonder if it could be taken up by the Supreme Court.
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I agree 100% it is a dumb law - 0% chance it will be taken up by the US Supreme Court. I speed from time to time and know if I get caught, I will have to pay a fine - this law is generally the same deal. I have never violated it and likely never will but to those that do not a big deal. Great information in the original post. I really enjoy grouse hunting with my bow :) :).
 
SS! said:
So you’re saying the residents pushed the wilderness law through? Or you just have an axe to grind with the residents?

Utah couldn’t return the favor because they have no real wilderness areas. 😂. That state is more wallowed out than mia khalifa in her prime.
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Most of the elk in Sw Wyoming come from Utah wilderness.

Youre welcome
 
BuzzH said:
What was
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BuzzH said:
Horrible law.

But before you say it, I'm not one bit interested in trying to change it.

There is no legal path forward, in particular since s.339 passed after the Taulman lawsuit. The state holds all the cards. The Federal and State court cases all side with State control of wildlife. When s.339 passed as federal law, it reaffirmed the rights of the States to discriminate against NR hunters any way they see fit.

So, the only other path forward is to repeal state statute and/or change the law. To do that, the only way would be to do 2 things:

1. Cut a deal with the outfitters by giving them a pool of outfitter sponsored tags, probably cost NR hunters half their tags.

2. Residents hunters are going to want something too, many of them like not seeing a NR hunter around every tree and support the law. That would mean 90-10 for deer, elk, and pronghorn.

What it would take to have any chance of repealing the law is NR DIY hunters being cut to 5% of the deer, elk, and pronghorn tags.

I won't speak for every NR hunter, but the ones I hunt with and know, they don't want to trade the ability to hunt wilderness for sacrificing a large percentage of their tags.

So, for those reasons, I have no interest in trying to repeal it, not enough upside, and plenty of downside.
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Go 90-10 you should that’s a fair split. But let guys hunt the wilderness as non residents. I’m surprised it isn’t 90-10 that’s a generous enough split.
 
wstrntines said:
Go 90-10 you should that’s a fair split. But let guys hunt the wilderness as non residents. I’m surprised it isn’t 90-10 that’s a generous enough split.
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Wouldn't be 90-10.

90% resident, 5% outfitter only pool, 5% diy NR.

I would think the smartest guy on MM would have been able to do that math.

Trust me, it's tempting to pitch that to WOGA.
 
“I would think the smartest guy on MM would have been able to do that math.”

Ohh, the irony of that comment…, 🙄
 
BuzzH said:
Wouldn't be 90-10.

90% resident, 5% outfitter only pool, 5% diy NR.

I would think the smartest guy on MM would have been able to do that math.

Trust me, it's tempting to pitch that to WOGA.
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Sorry I was distracted counting all the money and advantages threw at SS to account for the welfare outfitting industry. Do you guys bowl with bumper lanes and hit from the women’s tee box in golf in Wyoming? You headed out for the retard Olympics in the morning. I hope you find old chalk and boot tracks. Hopefully I left a few rag horns on the refuge for you guys
 
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wstrntines said:
Sorry I was distracted counting all the money and advantages threw at SS to account for the welfare outfitting industry. Do you guys bowl with bumper lanes and hit from the women’s tee box in golf in Wyoming?
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You'll have to ask someone that golfs and bowls, I don't waste my time with either.
 
BuzzH said:
You'll have to ask someone that golfs and bowls, I don't waste my time with either.
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Probably requires a little too much thinking on your part.You seem like a checkers guy. You should fit in well at the retard Olympics. Are you gonna be in your Yellowstone shirt? Make sure to wear sunscreen I wouldn’t want that beak to shrink.

IMG_3505.jpeg
 
wytex said:
Got a good friend that coaches and volunteers with the Special Olympics powerlifters, way to show your true colors.
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Good for him that’s a noble thing but if you can’t tell the difference in the sarcasm you may want to get some rest.
 
ElmerFudd said:
I was ticked for me and my elk being in the wilderness at the kill site. It was close and before GPS devices. I honestly think the bull was outside the wilderness on the first shot. Like above, just a fine like a traffic ticket. Freak that a forest service ranger was there and wrote the ticket, not a warden.
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Never heard of a Forest Ranger writing tickets on state statute.
 
jm77 said:
Never heard of a Forest Ranger writing tickets on state statute.
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I was told that the forest service had an agreement with the state to enforce state laws like that. The ranger took my information and I received the ticket in the mail. It has been a long time and I no longer have the ticket. It was easier to just pay the ticket than fight it since it was just a fine with no other consequences.
 
HikeHunt61 said:
Or...

Most of the elk in Utah wilderness come from SW Wyoming. Just depends on where they claim residency :cool:
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wstrntines said:
Sorry I was distracted counting all the money and advantages threw at SS to account for the welfare outfitting industry. Do you guys bowl with bumper lanes and hit from the women’s tee box in golf in Wyoming? You headed out for the retard Olympics in the morning. I hope you find old chalk and boot tracks. Hopefully I left a few rag horns on the refuge for you guys
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Mostly in Laramie
 
ElmerFudd said:
I was told that the forest service had an agreement with the state to enforce state laws like that. The ranger took my information and I received the ticket in the mail. It has been a long time and I no longer have the ticket. It was easier to just pay the ticket than fight it since it was just a fine with no other consequences.
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Very interesting - Thanks for sharing.

Was your infraction prior to 2012? A USFS ranger didn't seem to be mentioned in the 12 reports I reviewed. But certainly reports have been known to leave out important details.

A WYGFD warden could certainly use the USFS ranger as a witness to the crime he is ticketing. But you likely would have gotten off if you showed up to court that day and the USFS ranger didn't also show up to testify.

Also, WYGFD warden "serving" you with your ticket via mail doesn't comport with modern notions of "notice" required by due process. There is legal importance to an LEO personally handing you a criminal ticket to put you on notice of your crime. Related is the practice that most LEOs ask you to sign your ticket. That gives them evidence that they personally served you with notice.

For such a cheap ticket, it's hard to justify fighting it even if you know you'll win. In your case, I suspect you'd have gotten off on the two technicalities above and never even had to approach the subject of whether the wilderness rule is valid discrimination today.
 
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Crampy said:
Very interesting - Thanks for sharing.

Was your infraction prior to 2012? A USFS ranger didn't seem to be mentioned in the 12 reports I reviewed. But certainly reports have been known to leave out important details.

A WYGFD warden could certainly use the USFS ranger as a witness to the crime he is ticketing. But you likely would have gotten off if you showed up to court that day and the USFS ranger didn't also show up to testify.

Also, WYGFD warden "serving" you with your ticket via mail doesn't comport with modern notions of "notice" required by due process. There is legal importance to an LEO personally handing you a criminal ticket to put you on notice of your crime. Related is the practice that most LEOs ask you to sign your ticket. That gives them evidence that they personally served you with notice.

For such a cheap ticket, it's hard to justify fighting it even if you know you'll win. In your case, I suspect you'd have gotten off on the two technicalities above and never even had to approach the subject of whether the wilderness rule is valid discrimination today.
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It was before 2012.
 
"I noticed the crowd was a lot better and nobody was trying to cut anyone in line or try to take anyone’s place in line. The vibe was great!"

A quote on social media from a resident who went to the Jackson area on May 1st. Sounds to me like excluding NR shed hunters cleaned up the problems.
 
refuge was much nicer this year. No bullchit with cutting people off and a bunch of the stuff that made it a chit show each year. People were actually respectful and it was an enjoyable day out on the horses for myself and numerous others. imagine that, get rid of the flat brims, and the mountains are nice again.
 
JPickett said:
"crowd" and shed hunting in the same conversation. yeah, sounds like a great time...
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Used to be something to do to get away from people, carry a rifle and shoot some April coyotes, or while turkey hunting… and then social media ruined it…
 
JPickett said:
"crowd" and shed hunting in the same conversation. yeah, sounds like a great time...
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That's EXACTLY why the regulation was passed. Residents were outnumbered literally 10 to 1. It was getting ridiculous. Many residents just gave up the activity because of the huge numbers of NR. No exaggeration. No lie.

Any resident will tell you the same.
 
If Wyo res were outnumbered so much by nonres in wilderness areas, why not just limit nonres tags in units with wilderness areas rather than create a retarded nonres wilderness law? We all know why......outfitter welfare!

My guess is that in recent years, outfitted nonres often shoot the cream of the crop bucks and bulls in wilderness areas compared to the average Joe resident hunting on their own?
 
nontypical said:
That's EXACTLY why the regulation was passed. Residents were outnumbered literally 10 to 1. It was getting ridiculous. Many residents just gave up the activity because of the huge numbers of NR. No exaggeration. No lie.

Any resident will tell you the same.
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10:1 so you drove the whole winter range from Evanston to Jackson and clear over to big piney and witnessed it. “Any resident will tell you the same.” I call BS it was 10:1. You guys should head over to Mike Eastmans house and set up a protest. Or burn your Magnum Muleys dvd’s. You guys would cry if Wyoming only gave one nonresident tag statewide. You guys created the vacuum effect when you made a shed season. I’ll bet the gross profit was terrible year to date in Jackson. But oh well keep creating more laws against non residents and you will get shorter season dates, a point system, price increases and likely more hunt types to drum up tag sales.
 
wstrntines said:
10:1 so you drove the whole winter range from Evanston to Jackson and clear over to big piney and witnessed it. “Any resident will tell you the same.” I call BS it was 10:1. You guys should head over to Mike Eastmans house and set up a protest. Or burn your Magnum Muleys dvd’s. You guys would cry if Wyoming only gave one nonresident tag statewide. You guys created the vacuum effect when you made a shed season. I’ll bet the gross profit was terrible year to date in Jackson. But oh well keep creating more laws against non residents and you will get shorter season dates, a point system, price increases and likely more hunt types to drum up tag sales.
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That's our business, not yours.

Why don't you solve all the jacked up issues in Utah?
 
wstrntines said:
10:1 so you drove the whole winter range from Evanston to Jackson and clear over to big piney and witnessed it. “Any resident will tell you the same.” I call BS it was 10:1. You guys should head over to Mike Eastmans house and set up a protest. Or burn your Magnum Muleys dvd’s. You guys would cry if Wyoming only gave one nonresident tag statewide. You guys created the vacuum effect when you made a shed season. I’ll bet the gross profit was terrible year to date in Jackson. But oh well keep creating more laws against non residents and you will get shorter season dates, a point system, price increases and likely more hunt types to drum up tag sales.
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Literally. 10 to 1. Ask any resident. Well, at least those who hadn't already given up due to the huge amount of nr; especially over the past 5-10 years.

It really pisses you off that you have to wait a week to shed hunt our state. That's the entire premise of your rant that's been ongoing ever since the regulation was passed. You can b**** and moan about it for the next 10 years. You can badmouth and hate on Wyomingites all you want; it's not going to change anything. Nothing.

My advice? GET OVER IT.
 
10 to 1 is about right. This year has been very enjoyable! It was like old times. I only saw a few residents out where we were. Everyone was in great spirits and had antlers. Calmly enjoying nature while getting some exercise with family is what it is all about. We picked up a nice pile of elk antlers and even got a bonus moose antler. Looked everywhere for that second moose antler but couldn’t find it. I will make sure and thank my representatives for getting the resident season passed.
 
Pinlard said:
10 to 1 is about right. This year has been very enjoyable! It was like old times. I only saw a few residents out where we were. Everyone was in great spirits and had antlers. Calmly enjoying nature while getting some exercise with family is what it is all about. We picked up a nice pile of elk antlers and even got a bonus moose antler. Looked everywhere for that second moose antler but couldn’t find it. I will make sure and thank my representatives for getting the resident season .
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So basically here is how I understand your paragraph. The other team scored 9 runs and we had 0 so we begged the umpire to move the fences in and when he granted us permission we got the game winning home run. You couldn’t enjoy nature before non residents were banned? Why not?
 
Wyoming Residents get to decide wildlife issues, that simple.

I couldn't care less what a NR thinks about how we choose to manage OUR wildlife.

Wilderness Guide Law, early start for Residents antler hunting, 90-10, etc. etc.

Utah, Montana, Idaho, etc. Residents get the same right in their states, and I also couldn't care less how they choose to treat me as a NR.

Never have understood all the NR crying and complaining about Wyoming.
 
nontypical said:
Literally. 10 to 1. Ask any resident. Well, at least those who hadn't already given up due to the huge amount of nr; especially over the past 5-10 years.

It really pisses you off that you have to wait a week to shed hunt our state. That's the entire premise of your rant that's been ongoing ever since the regulation was passed. You can b**** and moan about it for the next 10 years. You can badmouth and hate on Wyomingites all you want; it's not going to change anything. Nothing.

My advice? GET OVER IT.
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My anecdotal observations from my neck of the woods. Over the last several years I have seen a huge uptick in folks out looking for sheds on the mine I work at in southwestern Wyoming. Folks are largely picking up elk sheds around here with the occasional deer shed. Prior 4-5 years, every year we have had folks looking for shed inside the mine permit boundary, trying to camp on the mine site, blowing right passed private roads signs, trespassing on private, and picking up sheds before the May 1st opener. Last year we had folks looking for sheds in April, then when opener was moved to May 15, they were out looking the first week of May. 100% of these encounters that I have had personally with these folks, they were all nonresidents. All are from UT, except one from CO, one from ID and one from PA. This year we have had 0 incidents through May 7th. Then like clockwork this morning, a guy from CO camping on side of private road. I did enjoy waking them up at 5:30 am, telling them they had 10 minutes to pull up stakes and move on to greener pastures.
 
BuzzH said:
Wyoming Residents get to decide wildlife issues, that simple.

I couldn't care less what a NR thinks about how we choose to manage OUR wildlife.

Wilderness Guide Law, early start for Residents antler hunting, 90-10, etc. etc.

Utah, Montana, Idaho, etc. Residents get the same right in their states, and I also couldn't care less how they choose to treat me as a NR.

Never have understood all the NR crying and complaining about Wyoming.
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its amazing how hard this is for some people to understand
 
I remember when Arizona moved the goal posts for NR hunters many years ago. I had been faithfully applying and buying points every year! It was upsetting. There goes my chance for a Strip tag. Waaa!

I never got on the Arizona forum to b**** and moan about something I had no control over.

Not once.
 
nontypical said:
I remember when Arizona moved the goal posts for NR hunters many years ago. I had been faithfully applying and buying points every year! It was upsetting. There goes my chance for a Strip tag. Waaa!

I never got on the Arizona forum to b**** and moan about something I had no control over.

Not once.
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I also was impacted by the 5/5 split change in AZ in 2016. That is vastly different than how WY zeroed out NR ram point value with the 2021 change.

In AZ, all the impacted persons still had the 80% weighted random tags in pass 3/4. In WY, ram odds went to zero for almost everyone (except max point folks).

In AZ, consumers did not pay anything for points. In WY, points were as much as $150.

Details matter.
 
Crampy said:
I also was impacted by the 5/5 split change in AZ in 2016. That is vastly different than how WY zeroed out NR ram point value with the 2021 change.

In AZ, all the impacted persons still had the 80% weighted random tags in pass 3/4. In WY, ram odds went to zero for almost everyone (except max point folks).

In AZ, consumers did not pay anything for points. In WY, points were as much as $150.

Details matter.
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Do you get anything right?

What do you have to pay for a NR combination license in AZ to accrue points?

Honestly, details do matter, in particular the ones you conveniently leave out.
 
Crampy said:
I also was impacted by the 5/5 split change in AZ in 2016. That is vastly different than how WY zeroed out NR ram point value with the 2021 change.

In AZ, all the impacted persons still had the 80% weighted random tags in pass 3/4. In WY, ram odds went to zero for almost everyone (except max point folks).

In AZ, consumers did not pay anything for points. In WY, points were as much as $150.

Details matter.
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The 80% is actually the 2nd pass of the draw.
 
I’m surprised Wyoming residents aren’t kicking natives off the reservation and gifting the land to themselves and their welfare outfitters association.
 
BuzzH said:
Wyoming Residents get to decide wildlife issues, that simple.

I couldn't care less what a NR thinks about how we choose to manage OUR wildlife.

Wilderness Guide Law, early start for Residents antler hunting, 90-10, etc. etc.

Utah, Montana, Idaho, etc. Residents get the same right in their states, and I also couldn't care less how they choose to treat me as a NR.

Never have understood all the NR crying and complaining about Wyoming.
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I agree with THIS 100%. I'm glad Wyoming is leading the way and my own state is now passing similar laws that benefit the residents of my state. I hear NR shed hunting was pretty much the dominant conversation in all of our CAB meetings this year.

States matter. They have borders and laws that differentiate them from other states. It's high time that residents, tax payers, and contributing members of the states claim and enjoy some privilege. If you don't like YOUR state, get involved, petition, run for office, vote! Fix your own house instead of concerning yourself with taking what others have.

As resources become more and more scarce, we have to live with the fact that there will come a time when there is not enough to share. Residents should stand up and defend the wildlife resources that belong to them by long-established and universally accepted legal precedence.------SS
 

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