2022 Deer tag reductions in new guidelines

[wweaver79]

Looks like more cuts coming for this fall. Notably 12aw early cut to 300 from 375 on early hunt and Late hunt cut to 50 tags from 75. All Kaibab and Strip tags cut.

 

[SlowElk]

Well that's unfortunate! Sitting here with 9 points, thinking I might draw an early hunt in 12AW. Probably not going to happen now. What's the bonus pass going to be now, 14 or better? Or are people going to wait until the herd rebounds?

 

[diablo]

I’ll bet lots of guys will wait a few years on the Kaibab if they’ve got a bunch of deer points. The same could be said for lots of units in the west in general though. Last year was terrible on the Kaibab by most accounts.

 

[wweaver79]

Well they dropped unit 12aw 75 tags from early rifle 75 from archery and 25 off late rifle. 175 less buck tags is a huge cut. Combine that with a couple normal moisture years (wishful thinking) and it could get really good.

 

[AZ8]

Sitting on 18 points. I can wait for better conditions.

My friend had a Strip tag last year and he said it was terrible.

 

[coueser]

I was on Kaibab late hunt last year and it was tough. Some was conditions for the year but fawn recruitment has been down the last 2-3 years, no doubt, and herd numbers are down overall. I’m glad they’re lowering the tags, bummer for opportunity but good for quality in the long run. I hope that herd can rebound quickly

 

[diablo]

I was on Kaibab late hunt last year and it was tough. Some was conditions for the year but fawn recruitment has been down the last 2-3 years, no doubt, and herd numbers are down overall. I’m glad they’re lowering the tags, bummer for opportunity but good for quality in the long run. I hope that herd can rebound quickly

Pray for moisture….

 

[Red Rabbit]

To help the herd rebound, the number of youth doe permits was reduced from 100 to 25 on 12AW

 

[oilcan]

With 23 NR points and being 55 now I may never draw the late Kaibab.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

With 23 NR points and being 55 now I may never draw the late Kaibab.

You're likely competing with at least 20 other NRs for the 3 permits that MAY go to NR in the Bonus round. Two more will be available in the random 1-2 passes.

 

[Deerdon]

To help the herd rebound, the number of youth doe permits was reduced from 100 to 25 on 12AW

Much has contributed to the decline in numbers....but remember the 2000 does tags they had for a few years? I wonder what they think of that BRILLIANT idea now????

 

[Bigwiffy]

Did they cut NR archery tags again too?

 

[wweaver79]

Did they cut NR archery tags again too?

Yes -75 from 12a and -5 from each of the 13s

Aug 19 - Sep 8, 2022 (6,15,16) 12A (excluding Grand Canyon National Park) and 12B Any antlered deer 300 -75 Aug 19 - Sep 8, 2022 (4,6)
13A Any antlered deer 10 -5 Aug 19 - Sep 8, 2022 (4,6) 13B Any antlered deer 20 -5

https://azgfd-portal-wordpress-pantheon.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/archive/AZ-Hunt-Recommendations-Fall-2022-and-Spring-2023.pdf

 

[AZNATIVE98]

Did they cut NR archery tags again too?

At 375 tags NR shouldn't have gotten more than 37 tags for the 12A archery hunt. At 300 tags NR shouldn't get no more than 30 so yes NR will lose at least 7 tags from last year to this year.

 

[Calbuck]

If allowed, those hunters should go out hunting Mt Lions in the area to help even more

 

[CouesFanatic]

How about everyone that kills a lion gets a deer tag?

The Kaibab really isn't that great. I have friends in Utah and Idaho that kill bigger deer every year on general units than 99% of the bucks killed on the Kaibab. Sure there's some giants that slip through but if you kill a buck over 180 you did very very well.

 

[Joe2Kool]

You're likely competing with at least 20 other NRs for the 3 permits that MAY go to NR in the Bonus round. Two more will be available in the random 1-2 passes.

OW, I thought half of the NR tags were required to go to NR's in the Bonus Pass. The remaining half went tossed into the 1-2 Pass, and could be drawn by NR's or R's. But the max NR tags was limited to 10% of the total.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

OW, I thought half of the NR tags were required to go to NR's in the Bonus Pass. The remaining half went tossed into the 1-2 Pass, and could be drawn by NR's or R's. But the max NR tags was limited to 10% of the total.

Right. There are 50 total tags for the late west Kaibab season. That means the possible NR total allocation would be 5 (10%). Half 2.5 rounded to 3 MIGHT go in the bonus pass. Depends on how many of the top point holders are NRs & what their number is in the plucking order among the residents with the same number of points.

The rest -- 2 --go to the 1-2 pass.

 

[Joe2Kool]

OK. That's different than what I thought. Not arguing. I just had a different understanding.
Thanks.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

OK. That's different than what I thought. Not arguing. I just had a different understanding.
Thanks.

No problema.

One thing that might confuse folks...the NR 10% allocation for elk & deer are per hunt, not per the total of all the species permits. So a hunt # with 1,000 permits has a POSSIBLE 100 permits NRs MIGHT draw. Like the Kaibab example I gave, 50 permits total is only 5 NR possibilities.

For sheep, however, it's 10% of the total permits for all hunt #s. There are other rules in place for the NR allocation that are also unique to sheep.

 

[Largebull]

Wow ,what a change. Just 4 years ago I had 12a west late tag and there were 100 tags .The Herd will come back ,they just need to quit so many JR. tags and pray for Precipitation.............BULL!

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Wow ,what a change. Just 4 years ago I had 12a west late tag and there were 100 tags .The Herd will come back ,they just need to quit so many JR. tags and pray for Precipitation.............BULL!

Yup. That was about the same as when my son & I had 12AW permits about 8 or 9 yrs. ago.

I haven't spoken with anyone at the dept. for a while now, but one reason they have continued to kill does is to protect whatever decent winter habitat that's left. I'm guessing that is also a thing of the past. We'll see when the 2022 hunt regs come out next month.

 

[AZNATIVE98]

The 2022 proposal is only 25 jr doe tags, and I don't know if I've ever seen the commission not approve the hunt recommendations once they make it to the meeting.

 

[Deerdon]

Yup. That was about the same as when my son & I had 12AW permits about 8 or 9 yrs. ago.

I haven't spoken with anyone at the dept. for a while now, but one reason they have continued to kill does is to protect whatever decent winter habitat that's left. I'm guessing that is also a thing of the past. We'll see when the 2022 hunt regs come out next month.

Back when they first started the large doe tag quotas (2000 tags). I spoke with the biologist and her number one reason for all those doe tags was the desire to increase the buck to doe ratio. I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but it was clearly the top of her list. I specifically brought up the argument that she might reduce the herd to a point at which it took the "cushion" out of it. This in turn would hamper its ability to recover from unforeseen events in the future. I specifically brought up issues like - Harsh winter, drought, disease, fire...etc. Been going up there since the 90's and it has been painful to watch. Now ya through a severe drought into the mix and it's simply very SAD! They have been SLOWLY reducing the doe tags for several years now. Given the current status of the herd, I am baffled that there are ANY doe tags available now.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Back when they first started the large doe tag quotas (2000 tags). I spoke with the biologist and her number one reason for all those doe tags was the desire to increase the buck to doe ratio. I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but it was clearly the top of her list. I specifically brought up the argument that she might reduce the herd to a point at which it took the "cushion" out of it. This in turn would hamper its ability to recover from unforeseen events in the future. I specifically brought up issues like - Harsh winter, drought, disease, fire...etc. Been going up there since the 90's and it has been painful to watch. Now ya through a severe drought into the mix and it's simply very SAD! They have been SLOWLY reducing the doe tags for several years now. Given the current status of the herd, I am baffled that there are ANY doe tags available now.

Yup. If I recall, that was way back when they decided to try for more 'quality' there.

When I started hunting the Kaibab in the early 1960s, tags were good for either sex. But you also had to get a $5 USFS permit. There were usually only a couple thousand available on a FC,FS basis by mail. I used to go to the main PO on 2nd or 3rd St. in downtown Phoenix & mail our application just after midnight the day it opened. The either sex thing for all tags was that way for many years.

 

[Bwht4x4]

Back when they first started the large doe tag quotas (2000 tags). I spoke with the biologist and her number one reason for all those doe tags was the desire to increase the buck to doe ratio. I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but it was clearly the top of her list. I specifically brought up the argument that she might reduce the herd to a point at which it took the "cushion" out of it. This in turn would hamper its ability to recover from unforeseen events in the future. I specifically brought up issues like - Harsh winter, drought, disease, fire...etc. Been going up there since the 90's and it has been painful to watch. Now ya through a severe drought into the mix and it's simply very SAD! They have been SLOWLY reducing the doe tags for several years now. Given the current status of the herd, I am baffled that there are ANY doe tags available now.

I have awesome memories of archery hunting the Kaibab in the late 80s and early 90s. Based on my own and other's recent experiences, lowering tag numbers is the right path, but to get it back to somewhere even close to what it was will take 12+ years. Tag number reductions will have to remain low during that time too.

 

[Largebull]

Poor management makes me sick!

 

[AZ8]

People forget that the 80’s had a couple a very wet years, way beyond above normal. Then a couple of above normal years in the 90’s. Those wet years were false hope: Drought would return.

In the last 25+ years or so, the pendulum has swung back the other way, closer to normal in the desert SW: Perpetual drought, with an occasional wet year or two thrown in for good measure.

 

[AZBuckSnort]

I would gladly draw a tag for the late hunt in 12AW this fall despite drought, low deer numbers, lowered tag numbers, bring the tag on!

 

[OutdoorWriter]

People forget that the 80’s had a couple a very wet years, way beyond above normal. Then a couple of above normal years in the 90’s. Those wet years were false hope: Drought would return.

In the last 25+ years or so, the pendulum has swung back the other way, closer to normal in the desert SW: Perpetual drought, with an occasional wet year or two thrown in for good measure.

Yup. Three 100-yr. flood years in the '80s with nearly 96,000 deer permits allotted one year. The other good rains came in 1998-99.

In an article I wrote in 2000 about this subject, Ray Lee, the big-game supervisor, said this about the '80s: “The result on our deer herds was quite predictable. For a few years running, all of the does had twins, their twins had twins, and those twins…and so on. We wound up with more deer than we knew what to do with."

 

[huntazido]

Those were my good ol' days. All those rainy years had an even bigger impact on quail numbers. Quail everywhere in the 80's.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Those were my good ol' days. All those rainy years had an even bigger impact on quail numbers. Quail everywhere in the 80's.

Indeed. It was one reason I got my German shorthair pup, Ginger. Back then it was still possible to hunt quail just north of Happy Valley Rd & east of I17 at Skunk Creek. Not anymore.

 

[AZ8]

Yup. Three 100-yr. flood years in the '80s with nearly 96,000 deer permits allotted one year. The other good rains came in 1998-99.

In an article I wrote in 2000 about this subject, Ray Lee, the big-game supervisor, said this about the '80s: “The result on our deer herds was quite predictable. For a few years running, all of the does had twins, their twins had twins, and those twins…and so on. We wound up with more deer than we knew what to do with."

Yes. Historical. '93 wasn't too shabby either. Record floods.

 

[AZ8]

Those were my good ol' days. All those rainy years had an even bigger impact on quail numbers. Quail everywhere in the 80's.

We killed it for quail in the 80's. My goodness! What a great time for quail hunting! My best memories!

 

[Bluehair]

Indeed. It was one reason I got my German shorthair pup, Ginger. Back then it was still possible to hunt quail just north of Happy Valley Rd & east of I17 at Skunk Creek. Not anymore.

View attachment 73744​

We used to shoot doves on the edge of the orange orchards exactly where the Superstition Mall is now. Unbelievable to see what’s happened and scary to imagine what it will be like 50 years from now.

Im becoming more convinced the good old days are right now.

And will the rabbits ever come back?

 

[OutdoorWriter]

My granddad & I hunted doves just east of Luke where Bethany Home Rd. was a dirt dead-end almost against the fence there. There was an orchard on one side & a thicket of various trees & brush on the other where we set up. It was the site of my first rattler encounter with one about 4 ft. long that became a hatband.

One morning as the jets were taking off, one was about 200 feet up when it had a flame-out. The pilot ejected but the plane continued on & eventually crashed. We could see the plume of smoke from where we were. Story in the paper the next day said the pilot suffered a broken a leg, & plane crashed harmlessly in the desert near Buckeye Rd.

The area I mentioned near Skunk Creek was also the site of one of the gun club's (Phx Rod & Gun Club maybe?) shooting ranges during the '60-70s. There were no fences or gates, just covered concrete benches & high berms downrange.

I had acquired a Win. M100 .243, so I went there to sight it in. After I did that, I took a walk in the desert to remove a couple of the jackrabbits from the large population. That's when I had my 2nd buzztail encounter. As I went to step over a creosote bush, I saw the rattler coiled there. It didn't appear to even know I was there before I brought my foot back & shot the snake dead. I'm guessing it was still a bit chilled since it was an early fall morning.

 

[wetmule]

Yup. Three 100-yr. flood years in the '80s with nearly 96,000 deer permits allotted one year. The other good rains came in 1998-99.

In an article I wrote in 2000 about this subject, Ray Lee, the big-game supervisor, said this about the '80s: “The result on our deer herds was quite predictable. For a few years running, all of the does had twins, their twins had twins, and those twins…and so on. We wound up with more deer than we knew what to do with."

Good ol' days for sure. I remember a few years, maybe only two years in the 80's where you could get an extra deer tag & kill two bucks because they were so under prescribed. Lots of precipitation & lots of flooding back then. Agua Fria bridge blew out near Black Canyon City, both directions in maybe late 1978? The Mill Ave. bridge, Tempe got washed away a couple times in maybe 1980 & 1993 if I remember right? Kaibab was an amazing deer factory in that time frame through probably the mid 90's, and deer hunting statewide was fantastic. Lot's of great memories

 

[wetmule]

Salt River

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I was living in Colo. in '78 so don't recall anything about AZ. But I was back in AZ for all that happened in the 80s. Don't remember for sure, but I think I drew only four Kaibab permits since 1980 to the present, so I spent the off years hunting Coues, mostly in 36B.

The article I did with Ray Lee from has some of the background on those rainy years. Titled 'Arizona Deer – Oh, How They Thirst,' it was published in Rocky Mt. Game & Fish in 2000. If you want to read it, let me know & I'll put it in a PM.

 

[wetmule]

I probably read it back in the day, but yeah I'd like to read it again if I didn't catch it the first time. Thx!

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I probably read it back in the day, but yeah I'd like to read it again if I didn't catch it the first time. Thx!

Done. It's a long read, so it's posted in two messages.

 

[wetmule]

Awesome article Tony! Thanks!

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Awesome article Tony! Thanks!

Glad you enjoyed it. Both Ray Lee & Brian Wakeling were pretty straight shooters with me. We often had 'off the record' phone conversations on 'tender' issues.

 

[Bigfoot 1]

We used to shoot doves on the edge of the orange orchards exactly where the Superstition Mall is now. Unbelievable to see what’s happened and scary to imagine what it will be like 50 years from now.

Im becoming more convinced the good old days are right now.

And will the rabbits ever come back?

Rabbits! Same here in NM. It’s rare to see a rabbit now, we had a 10 mile drive to town when I was a kid back in the 80’s and you would literally run over 2 or 3 of them everyday it seemed. We used to go rabbit hunting after school and on the weekends, thousands of cottontails and Jack rabbits everywhere. Not anymore, it’s rare to see a rabbit here. Pheasant are the the same. We used to be one of the best places in the Nation to hunt Pheasant, hard to find one of them now.

 

[Bluehair]

Rabbits! Same here in NM. It’s rare to see a rabbit now, we had a 10 mile drive to town when I was a kid back in the 80’s and you would literally run over 2 or 3 of them everyday it seemed. We used to go rabbit hunting after school and on the weekends, thousands of cottontails and Jack rabbits everywhere. Not anymore, it’s rare to see a rabbit here. Pheasant are the the same. We used to be one of the best places in the Nation to hunt Pheasant, hard to find one of them now.

Likewise - killed a boatload of rabbits back in the day.

I was glassing behind the house a couple of days ago and saw 2 jacks back in the pasture. I can’t remember the last time I saw one here, but it was before I retired 7 years ago. Put a smile on my face.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

From what I've read over the years, it seems rabbit populations can be very cyclic. ?‍