5yr waiting period...

[One_Duck_Limit]

IMO a 5 year waiting period for deer and elk is a bit excessive. Does the waiting period accomplish what it is designed to do?

From the guide book.
"Waiting periods keep successful applicants out of the drawing for a few years and give other hunters a better chance at drawing a permit."

They should change the wording of that definition from "a few years" to "many years", 5 is more than a few.

From the guide book.
"If you obtain a CWMU, conservation, expo or landowner permit from a private individual or organization—for deer, elk or pronghorn—you won’t be subject to a waiting period."

Why does money or good expo luck exempt you from the waiting period if it was designed to give other hunters a better chance at drawing a permit?

I drew a LE Deer permit this year at 47 years old. I got into the point game a little late and didn't start applying until my early 30's. This is the only LE permit I've ever drawn. The reality of not being able to apply for 5 years along with the number of points it requires, or will require to draw another LE Deer tag puts me in my 70's.

 

[littlebighorn]

I think a 5 year waiting period is fine. It keeps successful applicants from jumping right back in line and it allows those who are patiently waiting a slightly better chance.
If we didn't have a waiting period, you would statistically still be waiting to draw your first LE permit, while someone else would have jumped in front of you and drawn twice while you wait.
(I guess you are hoping to be that guy??)

 

[deerkiller]

Waiting periods are good. I’ve drawn 2 LE elk tags now, 4 points the first year and 3 the second. Both random tags. Keeping those guys out for a period of time allows someone else to get “lucky”

 

[elkantlers]

Honestly, there are some LE Elk and Deer units that should be OIL.
5 years is OK with me. In the mean time apply for an Archery pronghorn tag and you will probably draw before your waiting period for deer is done.

 

[hossblur]

That's always been my biggest contention with CWMU and banquets.

If a 5yr period is good, then its good across the board.

The driving force in the continued CWMU expansion, and more and more "conservation tags" is that guarantee of yearly tags.

 

[One_Duck_Limit]

I think a 5 year waiting period is fine. It keeps successful applicants from jumping right back in line and it allows those who are patiently waiting a slightly better chance.

That's my question. Does it really give those that are waiting a slightly better chance? According to the big game drawing odds report in 2020 there where 1546 resident LE Deer permits issued, 2705 resident LE Elk permits and 1049 resident LE Pronghorn. If those successful applicants chose to apply for LE in 2021 they have pick a different species than they just hunted. That means 2705 elk hunters are now going to apply for deer or pronghorn which will affect the random side of the LE draw for deer and pronghorn. How many of those 2705 elk hunters would prefer to apply for elk again?

If we didn't have a waiting period, you would statistically still be waiting to draw your first LE permit, while someone else would have jumped in front of you and drawn twice while you wait.
(I guess you are hoping to be that guy??)

In the random side of the draw there is always the chance that someone with less points, or no points, draws the tag before the guy/gal with lots of points. Is it any different that someone who hunted deer a couple years ago gets another deer tag vs someone who hunted elk a couple years ago gets that deer tag? It's still two limited entry tags.

 

[One_Duck_Limit]

Waiting periods are good. I’ve drawn 2 LE elk tags now, 4 points the first year and 3 the second. Both random tags. Keeping those guys out for a period of time allows someone else to get “lucky”

Given the choice would you apply for elk again or switch to deer or pronghorn?

 

[littlebighorn]

That's my question. Does it really give those that are waiting a slightly better chance? According to the big game drawing odds report in 2020 there where 1546 resident LE Deer permits issued, 2705 resident LE Elk permits and 1049 resident LE Pronghorn. If those successful applicants chose to apply for LE in 2021 they have pick a different species than they just hunted. That means 2705 elk hunters are now going to apply for deer or pronghorn which will affect the random side of the LE draw for deer and pronghorn. How many of those 2705 elk hunters would prefer to apply for elk again?

I'm going to guess that most MMers enjoy hunting, whatever game it is. But I still think a waiting period gives better odds to those who are patiently waiting their turn.
How many hunters like myself, who drew an LE deer tag, are now stuck in the Elk draw (and not applying for deer) because they have too many Elk points to switch. I've been out of the deer tag pool for 25 years waiting to draw an elk tag. Had I not had a waiting period, I would have probably stuck with applying for an LE deer.
None of us like to wait. In fact, most of us get antsy if our fast food takes longer than 3 or 4 minutes. If a waiting period is frustrating, I can't imagine what a One Duck Limit might do.

 

[legacy]

I'm not a statistician, but here's a real life scenario...
My hunting buddy drew a LE deer tag in 2017 with 17 points. I had 15 points that same year, have been applying for the same unit and have yet to draw the tag. I'll have 18 points going into 2021 (not enough for a bonus tag). He drew his tag before the 5 year waiting period went into play so after his 2 year waiting period, he turned around applied for the same LE deer unit in 2020. So, does that now hurt my odds of drawing with my 18 points? I can't help but this it does hurt my odds (even if just slightly). On the flip side, my wife drew the tag also in 2017 with just 11 points.

 

[travishunter3006]

It just postponed the inevitable for a couple more years.

 

[Vanilla]

If you think it's hard to draw a tag now, just get rid of waiting periods and see what happens.

 

[GLEDEASY]

I'm "ok" with it since all those who draw a LE are dealt with the same 5 year wait. I'm no statistician, so does it help? In theory it might.

I drew a LE elk in 2013. Forced to pick another animal I now have 5 deer points. For 5 years, yes my application was no longer in the elk pool. I'm back in now and hopeful for a tag that I would have drawn, in theory, by now if those deer points were elk instead. When I get that tag I'll jump back into the deer pool, but with 5 points to start rather than 0.

 

[PleaseDear]

5 Year wait is fine by me


I've drawn 3 LE Bow Bull tags and in the Wait years I can apply for Deer or Antelope.


Robb

 

[Vanilla]

I'm no statistician, so does it help? In theory it might.

Just add up the amount of LE deer (or elk) tags issued in Utah, times that number by 4, and that is the number of applicants guaranteed to not be in the draw. (Roughly, since permit numbers ebb and flow) It also reduces the number of bonus points in the draw significantly as well. When you start factoring in bonus point chances, there are a whole lot less “chances in the hat.”

Yes, it does help. Not as much as getting half of Utah’s population to move to Colorado would help, but it helps.

 

[Cooper]

The expo tags should have a 5 year wait also

 

[wildfin]

they did have a 5 year wait on antelope in ca. and then added a point system while i was in waiting, 2 years latter they stopped the waiting period. So I had already drawn the tag once. and the waiting kept me out of max points, so as the max point crowd diminished it has put me up near the top again and I may draw again before others that have not drawn ever. I don't have a solution but I am not against a waiting period. I am still waiting on once in a lifetime tags and that would be a guaranty if only I were going to be around for another 1000 years.

 

[deerkiller]

Given the choice would you apply for elk again or switch to deer or pronghorn?

I’ll be on waiting periods for both deer and pronghorn again when my elk period is up, so I’ll start applying for elk again and stick with it until I draw another permit. I don’t think most of our LE deer hunts are worth the 12+ years wait it takes to draw a tag. I seem to find bucks on general units bigger than most that get killed on LE units. So really no reason to chase a LE deer tag in my opinion

But to answer your question, I’m an elk guy for LE drawings. plenty of other opportunities to hunt deer and pronghorn inbetween elk permits to keep me busy and satisfied.

 

[257Tony]

Doesn;t it just make the Deer guys go into the Elk line, and the Elk guys go into the Deer line? Wouldn't that be basically a wash?

 

[JakeH]

Just add up the amount of LE deer (or elk) tags issued in Utah, times that number by 4, and that is the number of applicants guaranteed to not be in the draw. (Roughly, since permit numbers ebb and flow) It also reduces the number of bonus points in the draw significantly as well. When you start factoring in bonus point chances, there are a whole lot less “chances in the hat.”

Yes, it does help. Not as much as getting half of Utah’s population to move to Colorado would help, but it helps.

Ok, but just because they drew out does no mean they are not putting in at all, probably 99.9% have moved over to one of the other species, so you have just moved the chess pieces around but not changed the game.

In all reality since there are so many more LE elk tags then deer tags (about 1200 according to the numbers posted above) and even quite a few more elk units this has hurt draw odds for deer and antelope significantly over the years, especially since elk has always been on a 5 year waiting period. every year you have roughly 1000 people added to the deer roles, and cramming them into a smaller pool since there are so many less deer units to choose from. Hell this was even compounded farther by them only having a 2 year wait for deer for so many years. Lots of the people that drew deer tags and was put on a 2 year wait probably switched back to deer when it the wait was over because that is what they wanted to hunt.

I've always thought the waiting period combined with Utah's "pick one" system is kind of crap. If you are going to make people choose a species then let them put in for what they want too. And I am in no way advocating they open up letting everyone put in for all species, they screwed over the Non residents hard when they made that move.

I say let people put in for what they want to, and do away with waiting periods.

 

[JakeH]

Doesn;t it just make the Deer guys go into the Elk line, and the Elk guys go into the Deer line? Wouldn't that be basically a wash?

It actually hurts the deer guys significantly in my opinion. see post above.

 

[Bucks_Bulls]

The real issue is the 50/50 split between bonus and random tags. Change it to 75 bonus and 25 percent random. Then you could drop the waiting period to 2 years. Just a thought it would help with point creep but still give everyone a chance.

 

[JT]

Do it like Colorado. Drop the waiting period or make it 2 years and only draw max points. Probably won’t be to popular, plus it’s to out of control already.

 

[Vanilla]

I believe Colorado’s system is the worst of all the bad systems. Just my opinion, others may like it.

And I agree the waiting period should apply to expo tags. (Or just put the expo tags back in the state draw.)

 

[JT]

Why is Colorado’s system so bad in your opinion? I do know guys that have drawn Utah tags in the 50% ( not Max points ) . I hunt both states and I can see the benefits for both, but I do like Colorado’s a bit better for point creep. Not sure if there is a perfect system, I want to hunt every year like most, but I also realize that it’s not possible in the world we live in today,

 

[Bucks_Bulls]

Why is Colorado’s system so bad in your opinion? I do know guys that have drawn Utah tags in the 50% ( not Max points ) . I hunt both states and I can see the benefits for both, but I do like Colorado’s a bit better for point creep. Not sure if there is a perfect system, I want to hunt every year like most, but I also realize that it’s not possible in the world we live in today,

Nice thing with Colorado is you pretty much know when you’re going to draw, bad thing is you know you don’t have a chance unless you have the points. It just seems ridiculous to me the 50 percent of the tags go to people that haven’t been putting in for decades. I have 18 pts for elk and people with 1-2 points draw the tag I can’t get with 18. Let’s clear out the top end and reduce the waiting period, but I don’t think going to 0 percent chance for lower points is the answer either. Maybe 70-30 or 80-20.

 

[JT]

Yeah I agree. You can’t tell a guy that draws a tag with only a few points that takes a max point guy 18+ that the system sucks, but it does suck for the max point guy that can’t draw the tag. We need to reward the max point pool. But let’s face the Reality of it, it’s probably going to take an act of God to change the system, I’m afraid we are stuck with what we have.

 

[hawkbill]

I have been pushing Idaho for a three year wait time, I have a feeling big changes are coming to Idaho this year. I agree with the guys in Utah; that Expo tags and conservation tags need to also have the 5 year wait

 

[JakeH]

Yeah I agree. You can’t tell a guy that draws a tag with only a few points that takes a max point guy 18+ that the system sucks, but it does suck for the max point guy that can’t draw the tag. We need to reward the max point pool. But let’s face the Reality of it, it’s probably going to take an act of God to change the system, I’m afraid we are stuck with what we have.

LOL Your reward is that 50% of the tags go to the max point guys, sounds like a pretty dang good deal to me.

I like the 50/50 split.

 

[Bucks_Bulls]

LOL Your reward is that 50% of the tags go to the max point guys, sounds like a pretty dang good deal to me.

I like the 50/50 split.

It makes elk and deer tags once in a lifetime as point creep goes up and up. Some tags are 25 points to draw, wait a quarter century to hunt...

 

[deerkiller]

Yeah I agree. You can’t tell a guy that draws a tag with only a few points that takes a max point guy 18+ that the system sucks, but it does suck for the max point guy that can’t draw the tag. We need to reward the max point pool.

If you aren’t drawing with 18+ points, you have no one to blame but yourself. Tons of options for guys with even 15 points. There’s many different ways to kill a big bull and utah offers many seasons that allow you to do so. You don’t need a centerfire rifle during the rut to find and kill elk. Burn your points and go hunting. Or hang on to them and hope you get lucky some day. But don’t get mad at the guys drawing tags with far less points than you, thinking it’s unfair.

 

[deerkiller]

It makes elk and deer tags once in a lifetime as point creep goes up and up. Some tags are 25 points to draw, wait a quarter century to hunt...

Maybe if you want a San Juan rut rifle hunt! But they definitely aren’t once in a lifetime for guys that know the system and are willing to put in for lesser units, weapons or seasons so they capitalize on opportunities and hunt more often

 

[Bucks_Bulls]

If you aren’t drawing with 18+ points, you have no one to blame but yourself. Tons of options for guys with even 15 points. There’s many different ways to kill a big bull and utah offers many seasons that allow you to do so. You don’t need a centerfire rifle during the rut to find and kill elk. Burn your points and go hunting. Or hang on to them and hope you get lucky some day. But don’t get mad at the guys drawing tags with far less points than you, thinking it’s unfair.

That’s not the point, its the fact that with all tags the points are going up and up each year. I think it awesome that everyone has a chance but think the split is a bit off and if they lowered it it would lower the overall time it takes to draw a tag for all seasons. It’s cool that a first time hunter can draw a with 1-500 odds totally worth making a deer tag or elk tag once in a life time. I’ll have the same opinion after I draw elk and jump into the deer draw with 0 points.

 

[JT]

LOL! I give up.

LOL Your reward is that 50% of the tags go to the max point guys, sounds like a pretty dang good deal to me.

I like the 50/50 split.

 

[elkantlers]

How about we we grow more elk, deer and pronghorn.

Make the sheep and cattle guys pay a fair rate for summer range and use the money for habitat projects. Then, make sure neither touch a blade of grass on the winter range.

 

[deerkiller]

That’s not the point, its the fact that with all tags the points are going up and up each year. I think it awesome that everyone has a chance but think the split is a bit off and if they lowered it it would lower the overall time it takes to draw a tag for all seasons. It’s cool that a first time hunter can draw a with 1-500 odds totally worth making a deer tag or elk tag once in a life time. I’ll have the same opinion after I draw elk and jump into the deer draw with 0 points.

I’m 30 and I’ve drawn 2 LE elk. I’m certain I’ll draw at least 1 more if not twice in my life. Doesn’t sound like OIL to me

 

[Bucks_Bulls]

I’m 30 and I’ve drawn 2 LE elk. I’m certain I’ll draw at least 1 more if not twice in my life. Doesn’t sound like OIL to me

Good for you. I’m just giving a suggestion to shorten waiting periods

 

[Ultimag]

That's, why it's great haveing family that has land and gets landowner tags no waiting neccasary

 

[JakeH]

It makes elk and deer tags once in a lifetime as point creep goes up and up. Some tags are 25 points to draw, wait a quarter century to hunt...

You guys are looking at it all wrong, you see the 50/50 split as just how it is, like your not getting any benefit from your points. When in reality you are already getting 50% of the tags rather then 0%, so now that you have invested two decade's in your chance to hunt you want even more of that pie.

I get that its frustrating to wait that long, but there really is no good answer to this, say you give 100% of tags to max points, yeah it will help for a few years, but then you are in the exact same boat we are in now. If you dont believe me look at Colorado and the units that take 20+ points to draw with 100% going to max points.

Personally I lean towards stopping points, Keep the 50/50 split, cap everyone at where they are at right now and just start working through the points pools until there are none left and then go to a strait up random draw.

 

[Deerlove]

I have been pushing Idaho for a three year wait time, I have a feeling big changes are coming to Idaho this year. I agree with the guys in Utah; that Expo tags and conservation tags need to also have the 5 year wait

Id WANTS that soon to be 200$ hunting license as soon as possible, but I agree 3 years is right for them.

 

[Vanilla]

It makes elk and deer tags once in a lifetime as point creep goes up and up. Some tags are 25 points to draw, wait a quarter century to hunt...

How is this different than Colorado? They still have units that take that long to draw too. But there is actually a difference...

I’ll tell you how, and it’s people draw those “25 point tags” with far fewer than that every year. I think Colorado’s preference point system is the worst out of all the bad systems. You have set chance to draw unless you have max points. Full random draw is the next worst in my mind as it does g give you any benefit to applying in the past, and it’s the only system where in tries you might but every draw a single tag. Ever. I like the spilt Utah does. It combines the better part of both of the systems mentioned above. No system is perfect so long as supply is greatly outnumbered by demand. But I believe Utah’s is the best of all the bad systems.

As a 23 elk point holder, I’m fine that someone with 6 points drew the permit I applied for. I hope they killed a monster too!

 

[JakeH]

How is this different than Colorado? They still have units that take that long to draw too. But there is actually a difference...

I’ll tell you how, and it’s people draw those “25 point tags” with far fewer than that every year. I think Colorado’s preference point system is the worst out of all the bad systems. You have set chance to draw unless you have max points. Full random draw is the next worst in my mind as it does g give you any benefit to applying in the past, and it’s the only system where in tries you might but every draw a single tag. Ever. I like the spilt Utah does. It combines the better part of both of the systems mentioned above. No system is perfect so long as supply is greatly outnumbered by demand. But I believe Utah’s is the best of all the bad systems.

As a 23 elk point holder, I’m fine that someone with 6 points drew the permit I applied for. I hope they killed a monster too!

I go back and forth with the whole point system deal, part of me wants to do away with it, the other thinks it really is the most fair system and truly is the best of both sh!ty worlds. LOL

Still don't think there should be a waiting period, let people build points for what they want to hunt if your going to limit them to a single species.

 

[cannonball]

Leave the system as is with one exception. You decide in a separate bonus choice where you want your selection. In other words if you choose the point on a buffalo (OIL). No limited entry deer for you or any thing else.

 

[cannonball]

I should clarify. You can still apply for limited entry deer, but a bonus point for not drawing a deer will not be added. You used it on buffalo.

 

[Nevadahunter]

I like it as a 50/50 split and 5 year wait. Helps out the max point holders and gives everyone else hope when putting in. I think the changes that where made on returning a tag will help out a little with point creep and benefit the max point holders but it's still just a drop in the bucket. It blew my mind last year watching the videos and the lady from DWR said someone has returned a Henrys buck tag 8 years in a row and where only able to fill it twice. (I believe those where the numbers she said but don't hold me to it! LOL) Also, I am not a fan of elk rut hunts, it has too hight of a success rate and if all rifle hunts where in November it would have a lower success rate and allow more tags to be given and put another drop in the bucket to help with point creep.

 

[Ultimag]

I have been pushing Idaho for a three year wait time, I have a feeling big changes are coming to Idaho this year. I agree with the guys in Utah; that Expo tags and conservation tags need to also have the 5 year wait

Idaho will never go to a, 3 yr waiting period they will lose way to much revenue on nOn resident tag sales, then be forced to increase resident tag prices, which would cause Idaho residents, to stroke out

 

[utfireman]

I’d say get rid of the waiting period.... turn the bonus and preference points into one point system. Get the rifle hunt out of the rut for elk, and now pick your poison. Go hunt each year or wait for a better draw unit. Left over tags can be bought and don’t go against points. Leave the breakdown for max points alone. Now you don’t lose revenue as tags will still be bought, opportunity people get what they want, and trophy guys get what they want. And above all no stupid waiting periods!!!

 

[deerkiller]

Get the rifle hunt out of the rut for elk

Why take the rifle hunt out of the rut? You want the archers to get that time of year to hunt? Archery hunters already get special hunting privileges that other types of hunters don’t get. And you wanna give them more while taking away from another group of hunters at the same time?

 

[hossblur]

There is a VERY simple, easy, way to handle all of it.

Get rid of points. Every LE tag has the waiting period. Draw, Expo, CWMU.


And just like that EVERY Utah hunter has exactly the same odds to draw a tag.

The more carve outs, the more screwed up.


If you draw a Pauns tag in the drawing you get a waiting period. If you draw a CWMU tag on the Pains you dont. If you draw it in the expo you dont.

Your hunting the same herd of deer. Why seperate rules for them?


Idaho doesnt have points, and they cant discourage anyone from applying. Almost like points and schemes are just BS

 

[utfireman]

Why take the rifle hunt out of the rut? You want the archers to get that time of year to hunt? Archery hunters already get special hunting privileges that other types of hunters don’t get. And you wanna give them more while taking away from another group of hunters at the same time?

It’s all about success rates.... with high success rates comes limited tags due to herd objectives. Lower success rates means more tags, which actually equals more opportunities for all weapon types... i didn’t say anything about adding those dates to the archery hunt, I can see you have some hatred towards your fellow sportsmen and women who archery hunt.
Lots of options available to fill that spot in September, but that’s for another topic.

Bottom line is success rates are a major factor into herd objectives. When you have 80-100% success rates it limits the amount of tags that can be given.

 

[roadrunner]

Not sure if there is a perfect system, I want to hunt every year like most, but I also realize that it’s not possible in the world we live in today,

The states with a completely random draw are the best. At least that's what the guys that pull a tag every year will tell you...

 

[hornkiller]

Get rid of $.f.w. a.s.a.p.

 

[all4freedom]

Honestly, there are some LE Elk and Deer units that should be OIL.
5 years is OK with me. In the mean time apply for an Archery pronghorn tag and you will probably draw before your waiting period for deer is done.

There are plenty of units you could consider OIL. A unit requiring 24 points or so with a 5 year waiting period is basically OIL. I understand that it would give more folks a chance because less people would be eligible for the random tags. 29 years between drawing a tag is a long time.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Yes the rifle hunt needs to be taken out of the RUT Come on lets put the most effective Weapon right in the rut that make a lot of sense.
I laugh when people say the archery hunters get it all yet they still are the least successful.

You want to hunt more on LE elk?

Leave the spike tag quota where it is and then make it Mandatory survey and then when they get that survey back they can Allocate tags correctly I think they will find out there are more spikes getting Harvested than we think and if you don't do the survey you don't hunt period...This need's to happen

The archery hunt need's to start September 1 threw the end of September and then the last week and a half of September the Muzzleloader hunt (without scope's though) This will over laps the Archery hunt. You can run the Archery and Muzzleloader deer still during this time and the Archery spike hunt should run till the day before the LE Muzzleloader hunt's starts. you will be able to add more tags here as well

Put the rifle hunt in October this take place of the spike hunt this Success rate will go down which in turn you can add more tags. The rifle hunters will still get the hunt to Themselves.

Then still have late November Le hunt run it for 9 days then run the Rifle spike hunt.

Spike hunt is hurting us we are killing off way too many bulls which in turn is causing to keep elk tags cut back.

 

[Vanilla]

Or we can return the nearly 200 LE elk permits given to "conservation organizations" every year to the public draw.

I promise that this return every year with the joining waiting periods for all those people that draw will add way more opportunity than switching around seasons will. And moving the archery hunt to the rut, won't you have to reduce archery tags from where they are today due to increased harvest?

That's one point the "archery to the rut" crowd conveniently overlooks. It's a way to increase the cost of archery tags being sold, nothing more. Don't get fleeced on this one fellas. Just don't do it.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Yes return some tags And quit spike hunting.
But one tag here and there on all the units are not gonna help anything the hunts need to be restructured and if we have to leave the archery hunt the way it is let’s do that then after the archery hunt is over then give it a week break then the muzzleloader hunt starts or run the archery hunt the day before the muzzleloader hunt starts
Then the LE rifle elk hunt can replace the spike hunt in October there’s no dates being changed here other than the spike hunt moving into November

There is a reason why we don’t have a rifle deer hunt in November during the rut for deer.
There was a reason they got rid of the November muzzleloader deer hunt as well because we where killing off our mature bucks
so why in the heck do we want are most effective weapon killing off are mature bulls during the rut doesn’t make a dam bit of sense.
It’s pretty sad you can go in to the local taxidermy office and he tells me the book Cliffs average bull in the last 4 years is a 330 bull And gross not net also the local guides tell me the same thing
I know the spike hunt is hurting us but only a mandatory harvest survey will clarify that.

So thousands of people in the state are complaining about a 25 year to Draw tag and will never ever draw one again in their life And I believe deekiller said it best you can go in with the less Affective weapon and draw more tags but fast forward another 20 years from now that’s all going to be gone it’s not gonna matter what hunt you put in for archery muzzleloader rifle still going to take you 30 years to draw a tag

Come on guys we got to stand together and fix this problem for our kids and our grandchildren and great grandchildren .

 

[Deerlove]

Good thoughts, but where are the 17k spike hunters going to go? dwr likes that $.

 

[WapitiBob]

Pretty much a feel good exercise.
I drew with 5, waited 5, and it now takes 11 to draw. It didn't do a thing for those in my point pool or anyone after them.

 

[Vanilla]

Elkslayer, we will disagree on what exactly needs to be "fixed." That is the problem.

I saw it posted elsewhere that people clamoring for hunters to "come together" and "quit fighting" are really just asking for things to be done their way, and everyone else agree with them.

I'm certain that the rifle hunt in the rut is not harming the herds in a biological way. That is monitored and the health of the herd is not being impacted negatively by that. It may make it a bit "easier" to kill a mature bull at that time, but those that claim to be in the know will tell you that the biggest bulls are not your most prolific breeders. I listened to one well-known guide surmise that you need to focus on the biggest bulls in the hunts to save the elk.

For me, I don't know what is correct and what isn't on that, if I'm being perfectly honest. But I'm not okay completely rearranging the system in favor of one type of hunter in the name of game conservation when the things negatively impacting the herds are not weapon choice. Just my opinion. I'm happy to review any data you might have that I'm not aware of and change my mind if I'm wrong.

 

[Homer]

who ever started points in the first place should rot in hell....

 

[yoteduster]

Well it's going to get tougher here in Utah from what I hear the number of applications in this years draw went up 10% this year..more hunters hoping to draw a tag..what's that going to do to point creep

 

[Vanilla]

Well it's going to get tougher here in Utah from what I hear the number of applications in this years draw went up 10% this year..more hunters hoping to draw a tag..what's that going to do to point creep

Nothing to those already in the pool. But quite a bit to those coming in behind!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Vanilla I understand older age class bulls are not our primary breeders it’s the middle age class bulls I get that.

But if you want to get rid of this ridiculous 5 year waiting period and we want to get rid of 20 years to draw a tag we need to stop killing spikes or at least Manage the spike hunt better I bet everyone would be surprised on how many bulls are getting killed
Utah is the only state that has a LE rifle elk hunt in the RUT
There’s no reason at all that we should be using a rifle during the rut if you look at the harvest success it's high If you want you to look at the days in the field and the average days is 4.5 to 5 days on a 9 day hunt.
The archery hunt is the least successful hunt and it is a lot harder we all know the archery hunt should be in the middle of the rut and the muzzleloader should follow it and then move the LE rifle elk hunt into October where the rifle spike hunt is I bet the success rate on this will still be high...


Deerlove
They can still have a spike hunt during the archery hunt and then they can throw a muzzleloader spike hunt during the LE muzzleloader hunt and they can put the rifle spike hunt in November but the only way this will work is if they make it a mandatory harvest survey if you don't do the survey you can't hunt the following year.
I will bet this will be a shocker on how many of our future bulls are getting harvested.

All I'm saying we owe it to us hunters and to our children and grandchildren to come together and make this right....

 

[middlefork]

They really don't care how many spike are killed as long as there is some left when the smoke clears. I don't know what that number equals but it grew the bulls pretty good on the LE areas when they started.

The only way to reduce the wait is to be able to offer more LE tags which in turn will reduce the general season tags or reduce the success on any given hunt.

The rifle in the rut crowd won't change their minds. They have waited too long for their chance.


Personally I like it the way it is now.

 

[Vanilla]

But I don’t want to get rid of the 5 year waiting period. That is one thing Utah does that I’m completely okay with.

As for Utah being the only state that does something as evidence of it being wrong, I disagree again. You don’t like it. I get that. You want the archery in the rut, I get that as well. All that said, maybe Utah is actually the one who is right on this? We actually are the only state that does many things, in wildlife and in general. And our state is consistently viewed as one of the best if not the best state in the union to live in year after year. So maybe we have something figured out that nobody else does?

Show me the biological reason to move the weapon seasons around and I’ll change my mind. The only reason I’ve been given so far is archery hunters want to be able to have their cake and eat it too. I’ll come back to moving weapon seasons around here below.

I’m open to looking at spike hunting and seeing if there needs to be amendments there. I again do not believe it is having a biologically relevant impact on herds. Killing cows negatively impacts herds more than killing spikes, because as we know, bulls don’t have babies. That said, I’ve been an advocate for mandatory harvest surveys for EVERY big game tag issued now for years. I believe a harvest survey should be required or you are disqualified from applying in the following year’s big game draws. And I think that should be for EVERY tag issued.

Now back to moving the rifle out of the rut so we can have more tags and opportunity, because that is the reason being sold. People are being sold a bill of goods! You yourself just stated above that if they move the rifle out of the rut to October that the success rates will still remain high. If success rates are still high, how will they increase permits? The stated goal of moving the archery to the rut is to help archers have more success. If they increase archery success, what does that do to tag numbers?

This is the biggest fleece job since SFW convinced Utah hunters they would be our savior years ago. I, for one, am not falling for it. This push to increase tag numbers and address point creep is simply a lie. This is a push to benefit one group of hunters over another, and nothing more. Yet I’m being told to “come together for the children” on it?

Yeah, no thanks! Give me a biological reason, or admit the lies behind the movement.

 

[LivingTheDream]

That said, I’ve been an advocate for mandatory harvest surveys for EVERY big game tag issued now for years. I believe a harvest survey should be required or you are disqualified from applying in the following year’s big game draws. And I think that should be for EVERY tag issued.

This really needs to happen. It honestly amazes me that this is not in place, it really takes the guess work out of management.

 

[yoteduster]

Well stated vanilla I agree with you 100%

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Your right we are the only state that does things different
we can’t grow deer and we are loosing are quality of elk we all know it used to be the best so yes where doing it wrong
I rifle hunt and I bow hunt I enjoy both but we all know the archery hunt needs to be in the rut
but I know why you don’t want it changed because your a rifle hunter and probably have LE elk points for it and that fine but tell me why can’t the rifle hunt be in October?
Is it because it makes it easier to find and harvest a bull if that is the case it hunting it’s not killing
I do know it’s harder to kill a bull in October than it is during the rut so the success rate would probably be lower in fact I know it would be this will save bulls
The archery hunt will still be lower in the rut you know it and I know it.it’s almost a 100% success rate for the rifle hunt
we need more bulls on the landscape and managing spike will do that and we can handle more bulls on the landscape and in turn that will allow more tags issued and guess what it will do lower the years it takes to draw
Like I said look at our future and our kids it not fair now and fast forward 20 year it will be ten times worst

 

[Vanilla]

but we all know the archery hunt needs to be in the rut

You keep saying that, but that simply isn’t true. We all don’t know that. I don’t know that. I’m guessing if we did a poll I would not be the only person that says leave things as they are. We simply don’t all know that. Quit saying that. I’ve asked twice already, but maybe third time is the charm. What is the biological reason for moving the rifle out of the rut? Give me one and I’m happy to reconsider my position.

Yes, I’m a rifle hunter. Yes, I have LE elk points in Utah, but within a couple years I won’t, and I’ll be at the very back of the line and my opinion won’t change. Here is why:

Utah has had its current system in place for over a quarter of a century. If you’re going to change the system that everyone has been playing, you better have a biological reason for doing so. You don’t simply change a nearly 30 year system that everyone has been playing by the same rules just to favor one group of hunters over another. This is the very antithesis of the pitch you’re making to “come together as hunters.” You’re going to screw the largest segment of hunters over to appease archery hunters, and give “conservation” organizations a chance to sell archery tags at a higher value, all in the name of “coming together for the children.”

Yet it won’t increase tags or help point creep. And it won’t actually help increase elk herds at all. Any minimal increase in rifle tags that come from a small decrease in success rates in October (remember, YOU said they would still be high above, don’t change your tune now) will be cancelled out by the decrease in archery tags they have to implement due to higher success rates in the rut.

Here is a plan: Let’s start with the nearly 200 elk tags every year we give away as a welfare program to the “conservation” organizations. Put them back in the public draw. This will have a noticeable impact on applications over time. Then we can also address spike harvest through mandatory harvest reports and close monitoring of those numbers. I can get on board with changes to the spike hunts if the numbers show a need to address it. And yes, I buy a spike tag every year.

I have ZERO desire to rearrange an entire system that is set in place for nearly 30 years just to appease archery hunters. Zero. And anyone that claims this is for the elk herds and not to benefit one group over another is either completely misinformed or lying.

Heck, even Troy from SFW admitted in a public meeting, on the record, that his desire to get the archery hunt in the rut is to grow more 400+ inch bulls and make our tags worth more money. One thing I respect about him is while I don’t agree with him on everything, he appears to at least be honest about his motivation. I can respect a man who is honest, even if I don’t agree with him.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I’m a rifle hunter like I said and I still rifle hunt I’m not just saying it because I love archery as well but I will stick to what I said the least successful hunt should be in the rut.
So don’t move the archery hunt and give a week break and then start the muzzleloader hunt and then move the rifle hunt into October like I said
That way it doesn’t help either one hunt but you would disagree with that as well and so will others because you and others know that the rut hunt is an easy hunt with a rifle.

I agree with this 100% it is a start
Here is a plan: Let’s start with the nearly 200 elk tags every year we give away as a welfare program to the “conservation” organizations. Put them back in the public draw. This will have a noticeable impact on applications over time. Then we can also address spike harvest through mandatory harvest reports and close monitoring of those numbers. I can get on board with changes to the spike hunts if the numbers show a need to address it. And yes, I buy a spike tag every year.

 

[Deerlove]

Moving the rifle hunt to Oct would decrease success rates and therefore more tags could be issued. Try it on one unit with mandatory reporting.

 

[Vanilla]

Moving the rifle hunt to Oct would decrease success rates and therefore more tags could be issued. Try it on one unit with mandatory reporting.

Moving the archery hunt to September would increase success rates and therefore less tags could be issued. (Exactly what some people want, but are not telling you the truth about it!)

 

[Deerlove]

Archery hunts already in sept just not prime rut.

 

[Vanilla]

Okay, then leave them where they are at. Quit complaining!

 

[buckhorn]

I don’t hunt elk in Utah but from my observation it’s pretty simple. If you want Bulls to grow older you have to stop killing as many of them when they’re young!

 

[Deerlove]

I don’t hunt elk in Utah but from my observation it’s pretty simple. If you want Bulls to grow older you have to stop killing as many of them when they’re young!

Or dump the rife rut hunt.

 

[buckhorn]

Or dump the rife rut hunt.

I would agree with that!
And personally I don’t get the spike only elk hunts. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[Deerlove]

I would agree with that!
And personally I don’t get the spike only elk hunts. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

The problem is there's 17k spike tags, they have to go somewhere or stay home.

 

[buckhorn]

The problem is there's 17k spike tags, they have to go somewhere or stay home.

Like I said I don’t hunt Elk in Utah. I am a Nevada resident. I realize UDWR needs to sell tags for income.
I think Nevada has a few spike elk hunts but they are basically depredation type hunts. I’m not aware of any spike hunts in our units that are managed for quality.

 

[JakeH]

Here is some info that I do not think any of you have taken the time to look up.

Last 2 years of success rates from the harvest data on the wasatch.
------------2019 / 2020
Archery: 22.4% / 18.3%
Early Rifle: 72% / 70% mid sept
Muzzy: 60% / 68% end sept/early oct
Mid Rifle: 59% / 63% early to mid oct
Late Rifle: 67% / 71% mid nov
Multi seas: 78% / 78% all seasons

You guys can use that info however you want, I will note the mid rifle hunt will not start until Oct 9th this year and started on the 3rd in 2020, I think that is going to effect success % in that hunt a fair amount this year, as the bulls are still rutting pretty hard the first week of October.


I will also say this, the Spike hunt has helped have a very detrimental effect on the Bookcliffs unit. Maybe all units are not equal and the spike hunt has more effect on certain units, I can only speak for what I know, and it has had an effect on the Bookcliffs, there are other factors involved that have also had effects, but the spike hunt has defiantly contributed. I feel they should do a better job of controlling the number of spikes taken off of each unit rather then the free for all we currently have in place.

I am also in favor of moving the rifle hunt out of the rut, or at the very least moving more of the rifle tags to the later hunts rather then the majority of them being in the early hunt. Make it a 20/40/40 split and make it 3 separate rifle seasons in all units. (just a thought).

 

[buckhorn]

Here is some info that I do not think any of you have taken the time to look up.

Last 2 years of success rates from the harvest data on the wasatch.
------------2019 / 2020
Archery: 22.4% / 18.3%
Early Rifle: 72% / 70% mid sept
Muzzy: 60% / 68% end sept/early oct
Mid Rifle: 59% / 63% early to mid oct
Late Rifle: 67% / 71% mid nov
Multi seas: 78% / 78% all seasons

You guys can use that info however you want, I will note the mid rifle hunt will not start until Oct 9th this year and started on the 3rd in 2020, I think that is going to effect success % in that hunt a fair amount this year, as the bulls are still rutting pretty hard the first week of October.


I will also say this, the Spike hunt has helped have a very detrimental effect on the Bookcliffs unit. Maybe all units are not equal and the spike hunt has more effect on certain units, I can only speak for what I know, and it has had an effect on the Bookcliffs, there are other factors involved that have also had effects, but the spike hunt has defiantly contributed. I feel they should do a better job of controlling the number of spikes taken off of each unit rather then the free for all we currently have in place.

I am also in favor of moving the rifle hunt out of the rut, or at the very least moving more of the rifle tags to the later hunts rather then the majority of them being in the early hunt. Make it a 20/40/40 split and make it 3 separate rifle seasons in all units. (just a thought).

Jake you make some good points.
I hope for you and all of Utah sportsman and future of hunting in Utah that more like-minded people will start speaking up.

 

[Vanilla]

JakeH- but above I’m being told rifle rut hunts are 100% success rates? Now I’m confused...

(Not really. I know the percentages and know what the result will be if this change is made, and also WHY people want it. I just wish more people were honest about it all.)

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Vanilla you should be confused because I'm confused I said ALMOST .
Should of clarified sorry but you know the success rate is way higher especialy with the number of tags they issue

This has nothing to do with just the archery hunt there is another hunt that is also in that month.

Like I've said this before Archery deer/elk/spike elk go on at the same time and I do believe a bear hunt run during this time as well also the archery hunt ended on the 11 of September last year you know there is very little rut action during that time....

The rifle hunt gets the rut and no other hunts are going on during this time other than the youth hunt and the disable hunt.

Muzzleloader has the elk hunt and the deer hunt going at the same time

At Biological stand point no I have no proof but in turn you have no proof that it is not hurting our herds as well...

There is a reason no other states don't have a rifle rut hunt it's because they don't want there upper age class bull to get killed gives them more of a chance to breed

And what jakeH just showed was a unit that is hurting and there is a lot of factors that go into play here
Lion's
Bear
Issued too many cow tags
They have killed too many spikes
The rut hunt is still higher yeah it not a 100% but what I look at is the mid season hunt 59%-63%and they run the spike hunt during this time success so I really don't see why we can run the early rifle hunt during the spike hunt on all units......

If that isn't a good idea then lets leave the archery where it is and give it a week break and then start the muzzleloader and then start the rifle hunt during the spike hunt or move the spike hunt into November

You haven't archery hunted before I take it yeah it will be higher but not by very much look at Colorado tags they sell a ton more than us and also look at the harvest still in the low 20%.

 

[Vanilla]

There is a reason no other states don't have a rifle rut hunt it's because they don't want there upper age class bull to get killed gives them more of a chance to breed

I thought above we agreed that we do NOT want he upper age class as our prime breeders? In post #62 above you wrote the following:

"Vanilla I understand older age class bulls are not our primary breeders it’s the middle age class bulls I get that."

So....which is it? I promise you the reason the hunts are not in the rut has NOTHING to do with the older age class not being able to breed. If we killed off that middle class of bulls our herds would be in dangerous territory.

This is why I say biology, not emotions and hunter wishes. There is no biological reason to disrupt Utah's elk hunting system. There are hunter wishes that are valid, but those don't overcome biology and the needs of the herds. Sorry, there just is no real argument here other than "I want it to be this way."

 

[Vanilla]

It would be so much easier if everyone pushing this was just honest about the motivation to push it. It has nothing to do with elk herd health. It has nothing to do with point creep. It has EVERYTHING to do with benefitting archery hunters over everyone else. If people are willing to be honest about this, we can then at least move the discussion along. The justification gymnastics just don't pass the smell test. (And I can't even currently smell anything.)

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I thought above we agreed that we do NOT want he upper age class as our prime breeders? In post #62 above you wrote the following:

"Vanilla I understand older age class bulls are not our primary breeders it’s the middle age class bulls I get that."

So....which is it? I promise you the reason the hunts are not in the rut has NOTHING to do with the older age class not being able to breed. If we killed off that middle class of bulls our herds would be in dangerous territory.

This is why I say biology, not emotions and hunter wishes. There is no biological reason to disrupt Utah's elk hunting system. There are hunter wishes that are valid, but those don't overcome biology and the needs of the herds. Sorry, there just is no real argument here other than "I want it to be this way."

You said mature bulls are not our primary breeders and I was agreeing with you on that.
The middle class bulls are being targeted more and more every year and it’s catching up to us.
that is what’s going here how many mature bulls have you seen over the last 5 years hell how many have you seen in the last 2 years im not seeing the quality we did ten years ago and 1000 of others feel the same way.
the quality is going down hill you use to see a lot of quality bull and now it’s slowly going away

because we are not managing spikes like we should and we are killing are middle class bull right when they are breeding with the most effective weapon on the market these bulls are the ones getting targeted the older class bulls they are out there but not very many left we have chipped away and chipped away and it’s catching up to our herds

If you think the bow hunt will be easier think again I’ve hunted other states during the rut and those mature bull are definitely tuff to call in within bow range.(but I can definitely kill them with a rifle no problem)
If the bow hunt was in the the rut you could add 35% more tags on each unit and wouldn’t even break 25% success look at all of the other states with success on archery they are all way low and they issue more tags.
Now go look at the annual report and look at the general season rifle bull success during October with 15000 tags there is only one unit that is over 25% and that is box elder 37.5% the rest is below 25% the whole state is actually is around 15% i don't know i didn't do the math but that is general season rifle.

So 15000 is a butt load of tags and there isn’t the elk herds on general season like there is on the LE
So now look at the how many LE elk permits they give 2707

my point is you look at the success rate on 15000 tags and look where the success rate is on 2707 tags in the rut and then look what the success rate is the writing is on the wall

move that rifle hunt into October you can issue more tags no problem the majority of our elk herds run on the LE units this success rate will be lower a lot lower run the rifle spike hunt at the same time as the LE Rifle and by doing that it will make this hunt harder and success rate will drop even lower

Vanilla there you go does this make sense now you can see why im pushing this so hard it does have everything to do with pushing people threw the system fast

 

[Vanilla]

The mental gymnastics here are exhausting. You have now contradicted yourself no less than 3 times on the exact same topic. These are things you’ve said:

Older bulls are not our best breeding class.

No other states do rifle in the rut because it puts too much pressure on the older age class that the need to breed.

But in Utah, the rifle in the rut is now not killing the older class, but the middle class.

Now you’re using general season success rates to compare to LE hunts when we don’t even have mandatory harvest reports on those hunts. ANOTHER thing you previously acknowledged we don’t have and need, but since it doesn’t fit the narrative, you’re conveniently leaving out.

Got it.

I think I’ve made my consistent point here consistently clear. You can flip flop back and forth all you want. But the truth is you want change simply to benefit archers are stick it to the others. It has nothing to do with the elk. Just be honest. Because anyone reading this thread knows any other justification is complete BS at this point. Like I said before, just be honest and I can respect the opinion, even if I disagree with it.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

The mental gymnastics here are exhausting. You have now contradicted yourself no less than 3 times on the exact same topic. These are things you’ve said:

Older bulls are not our best breeding class.

No other states do rifle in the rut because it puts too much pressure on the older age class that the need to breed.

But in Utah, the rifle in the rut is now not killing the older class, but the middle class.

Now you’re using general season success rates to compare to LE hunts when we don’t even have mandatory harvest reports on those hunts. ANOTHER thing you previously acknowledged we don’t have and need, but since it doesn’t fit the narrative, you’re conveniently leaving out.

Got it.

I think I’ve made my consistent point here consistently clear. You can flip flop back and forth all you want. But the truth is you want change simply to benefit archers are stick it to the others. It has nothing to do with the elk. Just be honest. Because anyone reading this thread knows any other justification is complete BS at this point. Like I said before, just be honest and I can respect the opinion, even if I disagree with it.

My point is we give out 15000 elk tags and it’s during October the success rate is extremely low
It doesn’t matter if it’s general season or not
Look at the success rate on 2707 tags when you run it threw the rut what is the average on that 68%to 75% and that’s only on 2707 tags if we ran the general season threw the rut we would be in trouble

don’t tell me we can’t add more tags because we can but you don’t want it to change because you know dam good and well it will be a lot easier to fill your tag during the rut with a rifle than it will be in October
So tell me this we leave the archery hunt where it is move the rifle hunt into October during the spike hunt Wait a week then run the muzzleloader hunt there’s no different there that way we’re not catering to the archery hunt as you say

 

[Vanilla]

Is the general season spike hunt moved to the same time as the late rifle hunt? That’s interesting, and I wonder what it would do for success rates on spikes? (Just curious more than anything.)

Show me the biological need for that change and I’ll show up at the RACs and Wildlife Board meetings to advocate for it. I’d be fine giving the elk a week off during the rut as proposed if it was going to give us more elk to hunt. But that seems to be the missing thing here: a biological need.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Hard to say on the general season spike hunt but it will be harder to fill a spike tag and also fill the Late season LE bull tag as well with hunters running all over the place.

They still will have to do a mandatory survey on spikes though.

Vanilla There is no Biological data anywhere to show this because it hasn't been done but that's why i used general season because that is all i have.
I really feel if we move the rut hunt to October it will allow for more tags to be issued i really think the success will drop below half it's hard to call them in in October it's hard to find them as well and your breeder bulls have moved on by then...

I'm trying here I'm not saying that it is right or wrong I'm trying to get more tags issued so we can have something more for our kids and grand kids I want them to be able to hunt more than one LE hunt in their life.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Vanilla I forgot one more thing they need to remove scopes off of muzzleloader as well If I can find it there was a person that shot a bull elk out in the book Cliffs at 405 yards with the muzzle loader or 415 yards it was last year that’s why I say get rid of them as well

 

[middlefork]

Elkslayer,
I appreciate your zealous attempt to change the whole elk management plan.

A suggestion, Get all your ideas in a row and present them to the RAC's. You will need to convince all of them and then they will send their recommendations on to the WB. At that time the WB will look at the recommendations and do whatever the heck they want to do anyway.

Any change is not coming from posting on here.

 

[Vanilla]

What do you mean there is no biological information?

We are the only state that does it this way. How many other states have elk? Whatever that number is, that’s how many other state we can compare and draw biological information from. That is a crap ton of data!

Shouldn’t be hard to show it is biologically needed, if it is in fact biologically needed. The data is there. There are enough selfish whiny archers crying about this. If the data is there, it would be provided by now.

The reality is, they want more 400 inch bulls to sell tags at a higher price that should be in the public draw but are stolen from the public and sold to benefit “conservation” organizations. And archers want their rut experience, and to go first, and to get the longest season, and to get the extended. I’m doubting some will stop complaining until no other type of hunter exists. Come together though, they say...

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Yup they get 30 days of hunting And they get the extended and still way low on success and it would still be way low during the rut.
They also deal with a deer hunt and the spike hunters and the bear hunters at the same time there hunt is going on

What do the rifle rut hunters deal with nothing no other hunts going on period and the success is extremely higher I guess maybe a bear hunt but I don’t think so I would have to look.
I’ve explained to you right here why the archery hunters should have the rut the numbers are all over the annual report and you can’t argue that because it’s a fact....or should I say biological fact.
well you can and you will argue because the rifle elk rut hunt is the only one of its kind and its every hunters dream to hunt the rut.
So hell why not hunt them with the most effective weapon money can buy make perfect sense to you but no way in Hell it make sense to me .

 

[Vanilla]

Yes, you have explained a lot to me above. Let’s recap, shall we?

You explained to me rifle rut hunts are 100% success rates. You explained to me that we can’t have them because they kill the oldest and biggest bulls that we need to breed. Then you explained to me that you knew the older bull class are not our prime breeders after all, but the middle age class. Then you explained to me we can’t have rifle rut hunts because now with your new explanation, it is actually the middle age class we target with rifle rut hunts. Then you explained that we shouldn’t have any hunt in the rut, and now you’re explaining to me again how archers should get the rut.

How’d I do with your explanations?

Guess what? You still haven’t answered the one question that matters! Hunter desire to screw over other hunters is very low on the priority list for me when it comes to disrupting the draw system in a huge way.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Look I know we can disagree on this and that's fine but at the end of the day where all hunter's here
all I was trying to do is come up with ideas right or wrong but at least I had some ideas and your right I confused the crap out of everything sorry.

But I do know we can add more bulls to our herds and i know we can issue more tags we just need to figure out a way to do so.
Spike hunting is the first step I really feel that it is hurting us from getting more tags issued I know for a fact the book cliffs is definitely one of them and I know there is more units as well like the Wasatch.

We can start cutting cow tags that will help but we definitely can't cut too many
The book cliffs is study showed there where a lot of older age class cow's that actually wasn't even bred during their study like 50% of them that is not good at all and this could mean a few thing they are just to old or there isn't enough bulls on the landscape I don't know.
I do know that the herd has stop growing So they only give out 110 cow tags for the books shouldn't effect the growth rate it should be exploding out there the population has been at 6500 in 2018 and 2019 the last 2 years and in 2017 it was at 6300 it blows my mind why that unit has not reached the 7500 current objective vegetation is probably the problem no nutrients in the feed.

I just want what's best for our fellow hunter's and our kids and grandkids is all, and the rate that we are going it's heading down a nasty road something needs to be done

 

[Vanilla]

There is a trade off here. There is always a trade off.

Let’s pretend we cut spike tags in half statewide. That’s 7,500 less tags in the hands of hunters every year. Then we further reduce cow tags. Less say just by 500 statewide. That is now 8,000 less tags in a hunter’s hand this fall.

If we did that, how many LE elk permits would that allow us to add? 200 total for the state? 100? 50?

Even if we assumed the high end of 300, is it worth taking 8,000 total tags away from hunters to add 300 LE tags?

There is always a trade off. I’ll pick opportunity over limiting every single time. But I enjoy hunting.

 

[Nevadahunter]

Let's pretend CWMU tags where a 1 to 1 ratio instead of 9 to 1 and let's just pretend the expo didn't get any tags. How many tags would that put back into the draw!?

 

[Vanilla]

Over 500 LE and OIL tags go to “conservation” orgs every year. Every year. Putting those back in the public draw would have exponentially more impact on point creep than any swapping of seasons.