BuzzH
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No different than you being in favor of CO residents only being allowed to apply for ranching for wildlife tags, and your wayyyy less than 10% of the moose, sheep, and goat tags your state give NR's of Colorado.
90/10 not going away...
- Thread starter BuzzH
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No different than you being in favor of CO residents only being allowed to apply for ranching for wildlife tags, and your wayyyy less than 10% of the moose, sheep, and goat tags your state give NR's of Colorado.
Maybe or maybe not, but is a cog in the wheel.
BuzzH
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Correct, but my elected officials do, and I decide if they keep their jobs or not...
BuzzH
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There's also a chance for you to do the same in Colorado Jim Sebastian. But that doesn't sound like it going to happen does it, Jim?
I appreciate how much some NR worry about Wyoming Game and Fish's budget. I don't think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot.
If you want to hunt in Wyoming, come join us. Move here, get a job, buy a place, pay taxes. Buy food and fuel all year, not just two weeks in the fall. The idea that Wyoming’s economy is highly dependent on NR hunters is misrepresentative. Compared to the other tourists, and most especially what the residents themselves contribute to the economy, NR hunters are a drop in the bucket. I don’t mind NRs hunting here, but I’m lost on the mentality that one state owes another state’s residents an opportunity. How many states do you need to hunt in?
If you want to hunt in Wyoming, come join us. Move here, get a job, buy a place, pay taxes. Buy food and fuel all year, not just two weeks in the fall. The idea that Wyoming’s economy is highly dependent on NR hunters is misrepresentative. Compared to the other tourists, and most especially what the residents themselves contribute to the economy, NR hunters are a drop in the bucket. I don’t mind NRs hunting here, but I’m lost on the mentality that one state owes another state’s residents an opportunity. How many states do you need to hunt in?
Hunt4more
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A regular one man wrecking crew, your amazing!
BuzzH
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Ask Jim Allen how well ignoring Wyoming Sportsmen works out for your political future...
Buzz, answer the question please!
I'm delighted that nonres travel to Colo and spend their money to help our economy! I'm status quo....glad nonres get 20 to 35% of our deer, elk, and antelope tags....and OTC elk tags to BOTH res and nonres! Colorado continues to be the most nonresident=friendly state in the Western US and I am proud of it!
I'm delighted that nonres travel to Colo and spend their money to help our economy! I'm status quo....glad nonres get 20 to 35% of our deer, elk, and antelope tags....and OTC elk tags to BOTH res and nonres! Colorado continues to be the most nonresident=friendly state in the Western US and I am proud of it!
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Hunt4more
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Jim, thanks for thinking highly of us fellow hunters from across the state line. We love to hunt just like you, and I can tell you feel the same way. When your ever out my way happy to help out if I can. We cut from the same thread, it's these other jealous/selfish pricks that I don't care for.
Conrad8899
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For the past year I have watched nonresidents here and on different hunting forums complain... Complain how WG&F raised tags prices nonresidents are not allowed in the wilderness areas nonresident draw odds are bad cry and cry... Wyoming owes non residents nothing... What about the Wyoming residents U really think our draw odds for LQ are any good? I am invested in elk and deer points in good old Colorado 10 points each. Colorado has changed the rules on me at least 3 times... I have no right to complain its not my home state to complain.... U really think any resident of Colorado cares about nonresidents?
Apples to oranges. You could have drawn a deer tag 10 times over. You could have bought OTC elk tags 10 times over. Oh, Colorado also gives a larger percent to NR.
You do have a right voice your opinion about whatever displeasure you have with Colorado’s system though. I don’t know what complaints you have though, how did the State wrong you? They have changed the app process and increased fees, but what else? Limit top draws to 20%? Still better than what some in WY want.
I had to take the time to look up who Buzz actually is. I have to say, man I’m shocked. Buzz is the chairman for the Wyoming chapter of BHA.... wow
An organization that prides themselves and strives to unite outdoorsman, hunters and anglers. The head of the chapter openly says he doesn’t give two craps about us non residents.... Buzz, why the heck should any non resident donate a penny to the organization you represent if on your own time are trying to reduce non resident opportunity we are donating to?
Wow, just wow.
Conrad8899
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Colorado gives out more LQ tag to nonresidents or just more tags... Like I said before ill take a general elk tag in Wyoming over any OTC tag in Colorado... And ill take a general deer tag over any low point deer tag in Colorado... I don't like hunting with a orange army... Raising tag prices should be enough to make me cry.. But I just pay it.. If U want to play U have to pay... With in the next two years I will be done with Colorado...
jm77
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And who are you? No really, put your name out and let's see who you are so we all can get an idea of the guy running roughshod on this post.
Truth is, no matter if Buzz belongs to BHA or not, no guy I know does more for hunting and sportsman in Wyoming than Buzz.
As far as nonresidents go, blab your pieholes all you want, but the future holds different plans for hunting, not only in Wyoming, but every other western state. I swear I have never heard, what I think are grown men, cry like babies over losing opportunities in a state where they don't even live.
I am invested in Wyoming, 50+ years worth, and please don't judge me if I don't feel your pain on hunting licenses.
You have that right. I’d agree about the elk tags, but my point was you could hunt there every year for elk if you wanted. With deer, there are TONS of really, really good deer tags for under 10 pts though.
I don’t discount the bold above. No one is saying that he doesn’t do good for wildlife. But for a public figure that represents BHA to give a rats butt about NR hunters is messed up. His words contradict the mission statement and that’s sad.
SS!
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Please stop posting facts. We have to be united in dumbfock ideas...
jm77
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Flat out lie...
Ha, ok. The mission calls for outdoorsman to stand together and set aside differences. It calls for action to guarantee our children can enjoy and recreate in wild places.
He sure is doing a great job uniting!
lostinOregon
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I will bite Buzz, what "talents" have you been giving to wildlife in Wyoming.
Please Mr. Buzz, don't take away my NR hunting hunting opportunities. I know you are the shisel and make things happen in your state so I'm begging you, please don't. Think of all that power you are wielding and use it for good instead of evil
Couldn't help myself
Rich
Please Mr. Buzz, don't take away my NR hunting hunting opportunities. I know you are the shisel and make things happen in your state so I'm begging you, please don't. Think of all that power you are wielding and use it for good instead of evil
Couldn't help myself
Rich
DirtyTough
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It’s interesting that a lot of the wildlife in Wyoming lives on federal land which is owned by everyone. Another thing that is interesting is that Wyoming is a taker and not a giver when it comes to funding by the federal government. They get more from the federal government (us non res) then they pay in.
So here I am living in a state that is a giver and not a taker, so the Wyoming residents don’t have to pay their full share. Man I feel like maybe some of the residents of Wyoming that are always patting themselves on the back could take a break for a minute. And pat us non res on the back that supply welfare to your state. And of course allow your wildlife to live on our land for free.
So here I am living in a state that is a giver and not a taker, so the Wyoming residents don’t have to pay their full share. Man I feel like maybe some of the residents of Wyoming that are always patting themselves on the back could take a break for a minute. And pat us non res on the back that supply welfare to your state. And of course allow your wildlife to live on our land for free.
BuzzH
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It’s interesting that a lot of the wildlife in Wyoming lives on federal land which is owned by everyone. Another thing that is interesting is that Wyoming is a taker and not a giver when it comes to funding by the federal government. They get more from the federal government (us non res) then they pay in.
So here I am living in a state that is a giver and not a taker, so the Wyoming residents don’t have to pay their full share. Man I feel like maybe some of the residents of Wyoming that are always patting themselves on the back could take a break for a minute. And pat us non res on the back that supply welfare to your state. And of course allow your wildlife to live on our land for free.
Land ownership and wildlife ownership are mutually exclusive. The Federal Government, under various Acts of congress (starting in about 1871 when congress gave the authority to the President to appoint a Commissioner of Fish and Fisheries), are required to work in cooperation with the States. Lots of things like land, water, wildlife, etc. are a cooperative effort under MUSYA, NFMA, RPA, ESA, yada yada.
The Rights of the States to manage their wildlife is bound by case law and retained by the State. Doesn't matter if that wildlife is found on private, state, or federal lands, the State holds that wildlife in trust for the Citizens of the STATE its found in, not for the CITIZENS of another state.
So, while you can belly-ache all you want about who contributes what, you have no legal authority over the wildlife found in Wyoming, no matter where that wildlife resides. That's expressly reserved for the citizens of Wyoming (3 exceptions exist, but that's defined in other Acts of Congress).
Your argument here holds as much water as a sieve....
BuzzH
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I cant stand together with resident outdoorsmen in Wyoming that want a higher percentage of tags?
I want to give Wyoming Resident youth hunters 90% of the opportunity, while being generous and giving the remaining 10% to NR youth.
I don't see the problem...
BuzzH
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If I have no sway, say, or talent...then you shouldn't be worried.
I'm not worried one bit about what you think...could care less what you do in Oregon.
BrianID
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I'm a nonresident and have had over a dozen big game tags in Wyoming. Overall, I do think a 10% cap on nonresidents is fair for any state. However, with the point game in place it would be a "bait and switch" done on Nonresidents.
I really wish all states would remove the point system scam. Almost all of us can agree that Wyoming's wilderness law is wrong and is outfitter welfare.
The way nonresidents are treated by many states is sad. A smaller fraction of the tags for 10X the cost is getting harder for many nonresidents to swallow.
I really wish all states would remove the point system scam. Almost all of us can agree that Wyoming's wilderness law is wrong and is outfitter welfare.
The way nonresidents are treated by many states is sad. A smaller fraction of the tags for 10X the cost is getting harder for many nonresidents to swallow.
Ahh, the youth.
I’d be for that. Can someone please propose no wilderness, no points and 10%? But make the draw like New Mexico, not Idaho please!
BuzzH
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Yep, you drug them into the discussion...live with it.
BuzzH
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I hear what you're saying on the bait and switch, I've had the same thing happen to me in CO, NM, UT, NV, MT...you name it.
Systems change all the time and I agree it sucks, but you just make a decision to continue to play, or you take your ball and go home. I've given up on applying in New Mexico, but don't fault their Residents for wanting a bigger slice of the opportunity. Their wildlife, their rules.
Again, what I don't do is whine and complain because the Residents of a state, that have 100% control of their wildlife, change the way they allocate said wildlife to me as a NR. Their state, their decision, just the way it is.
I also agree with you on the wilderness guide law, total crap.
Point systems...are what they are. Take a poll and they also come up about 50-50 for support and oppose.
lostinOregon
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I am not worried one bit.
Nope the BHA mission did.?
BuzzH
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I'm not either...
grosventrehunter
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Funny thing. Ss13, lostinoregon, and jims, I just checked and dont see any of you on your own state thread advocating for more NR tags. Matter of fact, I don't see any of you saying anything about helping NR at all. Now aren't you guys a bunch of hypocrites. If you don't like what Wyoming is doing stay home and hunt your own state, or NM. I don't like what NM did to NR, so I just stopped spending my money there. Pretty simple really.
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lostinOregon
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I have actually talked to the Director of ODFW at the time that they doubled the price of a non resident license. I told him at that the time it would be a revenue increase, but for the lack of quality and NR allotment, it was a bad decision that was short sighted. A change of NR tag allotments was needed to make it more palatable for NRs and more fair for them. Once NRs that were invested drew a tag, they would not continue to play the game and that would affect the State agency I was in charge of at that time due to the long term decrease in NR revenue.
What your missing is that I don’t care if residents get more tags. I really don’t because I feel that is Wyoming’s choice. What I find amusing is every year a certain group of Wyoming residents come and post that NRs are going to lose opportunity and just wait for an argument to start.
Rich
What your missing is that I don’t care if residents get more tags. I really don’t because I feel that is Wyoming’s choice. What I find amusing is every year a certain group of Wyoming residents come and post that NRs are going to lose opportunity and just wait for an argument to start.
Rich
marburg
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The truth hurts......
Grosventrehunts, If you haven't read my other posts.....plain and simple Colo is the most nonres friendly state in the Western US. OTC elk, 20 or 35% nonres limited deer, elk, and antelope tags, OTC landowner tags. Small town communities in Colo welcome nonres with open arms! I'm a far cry from a hyprocrite!
Nonres boost local small town economies as well as stretch game and fish budgets! Buzz and others likely don't own small business's that would be directly affected by cuts in nonres spending! Wyo, Colo, and Montana all sit in the same longitude....in a prime spot adjacent to the Midwest to welcome Midwest and Eastern hunters.
Hopefully Wyo continues to learn from what is being done in surrounding states. Irregardless of what Buzz may think, local economies in Wyo struggle with bust cycles....cutting nonres tags will only shoot themselves in the foot!
Colo: is obviously nonres friendly!
Montana to north: nonres friendly with large deer, elk, and antelope quotas for nonres.
Idaho to west: nonres friendly with large deer and elk quotas to nonres.
Nebraska to the east: nonres friendly with almost unlimited muledeer and whitetail quotas.
It's obvious that Buzz is keen on screwing On Your Own nonres hunters and could care less about small town economies!
Nonres boost local small town economies as well as stretch game and fish budgets! Buzz and others likely don't own small business's that would be directly affected by cuts in nonres spending! Wyo, Colo, and Montana all sit in the same longitude....in a prime spot adjacent to the Midwest to welcome Midwest and Eastern hunters.
Hopefully Wyo continues to learn from what is being done in surrounding states. Irregardless of what Buzz may think, local economies in Wyo struggle with bust cycles....cutting nonres tags will only shoot themselves in the foot!
Colo: is obviously nonres friendly!
Montana to north: nonres friendly with large deer, elk, and antelope quotas for nonres.
Idaho to west: nonres friendly with large deer and elk quotas to nonres.
Nebraska to the east: nonres friendly with almost unlimited muledeer and whitetail quotas.
It's obvious that Buzz is keen on screwing On Your Own nonres hunters and could care less about small town economies!
Conrad8899
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jims how is the hunting in these so called nonresident hunting friendly states? Colorado elk hunting is no good.. In fact I see elk tags going LQ in the future.. With in a few years Colorado deer hunting will tank with the new season dates.. Montana is just as bad if not worse.. What Nebraska have that Wyoming doesn't have? I cant wait t hunt Nebraska next fall lol.. Idaho is a little better than Co and Mo. How long are nonresidents going to spend there money in a state that doesn't offer a quality experience... Why are the nonresidents from neighboring states of Wyoming so willing to hunt such a terrible state as Wyoming? Quality experience maybe? jims all I can say is if it sooo good in Colorado stay there... Hunt Ur antelope down there.. Stop gaming our system to get Ur antelope tag...
DirtyTough
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Bla bla bla.
Read what I typed. I didn’t argue. I basically posted facts. I just said maybe the residents of Wyoming that pat themselves on the back so hard could take a break. And pat the non res on the back that subsidize the residents way of life.
Maybe if the residents of Wyoming worked a little harder instead of wasting time posting on message boards they wouldn’t be a welfare state?
BuzzH
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Sounds like you were pretty influential and a real champion of the NR hunter and wildlife. Glad you were looking out for the well being of the agency that was being funded via NR revenue...
BuzzH
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Exactly right...all of it.
Montana is a joke, I can buy a half priced NR MT deer tag and the ONLY reason I do is to hunt with my Dad, Brother, and 2 nephews, its sure not for the quality. Montana limits NR to UP TO 10% of sheep, moose, goat, bison, lq elk, lq deer, and pronghorn. Sebastian shouldn't talk about states he knows nothing about.
Sebastian whines like a baby about how bad the OTC elk areas are in CO and how they need to go LQ, all the time. There's already things taking place there to go LQ for elk, and it will. CO elk is a just a dumping ground for NR's that draw in another state for elk. CO doesn't even give NR's 10% of their sheep, goat, or moose tags or allow ANY NR's to apply for RFW tags.
Idaho deer quality is crap, its another dumping ground for people that don't draw somewhere else.
Nebraska has tons of opportunity with nowhere to hunt, what little public and there is gets absolutely pounded.
What I don't understand if the hunting is so good in those states why does Sebastian avoid them? If Wyoming treats him so poorly, why not just buy that top quality Nebraska mule deer tag and hunt there? Why not hunt Montana for mule deer and pronghorn?
I think Sebastian is going to have a pretty tough go on gaming the WY system this year, his favorite pronghorn area had tags reduced from 100 to 50. Plus, there cant be that many suckers that are willing to give up their points and pay a trespass fee to hunt pronghorn in Wyoming.
Colo offers incredible opportunity that isn't offered in any other state. Those nonres that like to fill their freezer every year with an elk can do it! There are more B&C muley bucks that are harvested every year in Colo than anywhere in the US.....the whitetails aren't too shabby either! Rifle antelope tags aren't that difficult to draw and there are gobs of OTC antelope tags available to bowhunters. No Colo doesn't have genetics to produce as many B&C antelope bucks as Wyo but the opportunity for those wanting to hunt antelope each year is available.
You are absolutely right about Wyo and that's what all this bickering is about! Wyo offers great hunting options for nonres. Nonres who are fortunate to draw the few high demand tags that are available are the guys concerned about loosing even more opportunity. In all reality, if you take a look at draw stats there aren't that many nonres limited deer, elk, and antelope tags issued vs tags issued to Wyo residents in any given unit.
The few additional tags taken from nonres really won't increase Wyo resident opportunity that much but it will definitely take a giant slice out of nonres opportunity!
Take a look at all the photos of how many deer, elk, and antelope Buzz posts on the web each year he harvests from Wyo. Wyo residents aren't lacking opportunity! They have gobs of general deer and elk options if they don't happen to draw limited tags that already have extremely good draw odds. How many Wyo residents wait many years to draw great deer, elk, and antelope tags...few to none with the current tag numbers!
Buzz can brag all he wants about what he does for hunters in Cheyenne, Wyo but if he isn't willing to step up to the plate and help nonres hunters that enjoy hunting "on their own" than he definitely missing out! Someone above mentioned hyprocrite? Well? He would be considered a hero if he is willing to help those that enjoy hunting Wyo no matter if they are res or nonres! The days that Buzz can brag about the opportunity he provides from his hard work in Cheyenne will be over for nonres! I know Buzz and I have never seen eye-to-eye on matters, but if he does this me and other nonres would have new found respect for him! None of us nonres have the time nor energy and knowledge Buzz provides in Cheyenne. I sure hope he is willing to step up to the plate and do what he knows is right...helping all "on your own hunters" if and when these policies occur! Nonres "on your own" hunters could certainly use his help!
You are absolutely right about Wyo and that's what all this bickering is about! Wyo offers great hunting options for nonres. Nonres who are fortunate to draw the few high demand tags that are available are the guys concerned about loosing even more opportunity. In all reality, if you take a look at draw stats there aren't that many nonres limited deer, elk, and antelope tags issued vs tags issued to Wyo residents in any given unit.
The few additional tags taken from nonres really won't increase Wyo resident opportunity that much but it will definitely take a giant slice out of nonres opportunity!
Take a look at all the photos of how many deer, elk, and antelope Buzz posts on the web each year he harvests from Wyo. Wyo residents aren't lacking opportunity! They have gobs of general deer and elk options if they don't happen to draw limited tags that already have extremely good draw odds. How many Wyo residents wait many years to draw great deer, elk, and antelope tags...few to none with the current tag numbers!
Buzz can brag all he wants about what he does for hunters in Cheyenne, Wyo but if he isn't willing to step up to the plate and help nonres hunters that enjoy hunting "on their own" than he definitely missing out! Someone above mentioned hyprocrite? Well? He would be considered a hero if he is willing to help those that enjoy hunting Wyo no matter if they are res or nonres! The days that Buzz can brag about the opportunity he provides from his hard work in Cheyenne will be over for nonres! I know Buzz and I have never seen eye-to-eye on matters, but if he does this me and other nonres would have new found respect for him! None of us nonres have the time nor energy and knowledge Buzz provides in Cheyenne. I sure hope he is willing to step up to the plate and do what he knows is right...helping all "on your own hunters" if and when these policies occur! Nonres "on your own" hunters could certainly use his help!
Conrad8899
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Colorado is the best state for mule deer... But with in 5 years it will be in the tank... There is no way the deer heard will be able to sustain the quality of the new season structure... How many Wyo residents wait many years to draw great deer, elk, and antelope tags.. This is the reason why residents want the 90/10 spit... We want better draw odds.. The draw odds wont be a lot better with the 90/10 split but every little bit helps... When Wyoming residents finally draw the LQ tag and they run into a nonresident who has hunted the same area numerous times bye gaming the system with point sharing it pisses them off and they want change... 90/10 split and no more point sharing...
BuzzH
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Sebastian,
I'm really not overly concerned with gaining respect from you...you don't live in Wyoming. I'd much rather see a 12 year old WY Resident kid, or a first time WY adult onset hunter get a tag than you.
That's for starters. Secondly, I help plenty of DIY NR hunters here each year, friends, family, and people I don't even know. I'm usually in the top 10 private donors to accessyes, the group I chair has donated a lot of money to same. Wonder how that happens?
Its also funny to see you asking me to help the likes of you, considering the crap you pulled when I helped R.N. and his son with that great bull in Wyoming.
Here's a helpful hint, don't expect help from people that you wrongly accuse of taking compensation for helping other "on your own hunters".
I'll give you one thing, you aren't short on nerve, but don't have the common sense god gave a crowbar...
I'm really not overly concerned with gaining respect from you...you don't live in Wyoming. I'd much rather see a 12 year old WY Resident kid, or a first time WY adult onset hunter get a tag than you.
That's for starters. Secondly, I help plenty of DIY NR hunters here each year, friends, family, and people I don't even know. I'm usually in the top 10 private donors to accessyes, the group I chair has donated a lot of money to same. Wonder how that happens?
Its also funny to see you asking me to help the likes of you, considering the crap you pulled when I helped R.N. and his son with that great bull in Wyoming.
Here's a helpful hint, don't expect help from people that you wrongly accuse of taking compensation for helping other "on your own hunters".
I'll give you one thing, you aren't short on nerve, but don't have the common sense god gave a crowbar...
jm77
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This post was started announcing a website to promote more resident opportunity in Wyoming. Obviously, the idea is to get enough residents on board that elected officials will pay attention. It's a movement that will most likely start with the way leftover tags are allocated and then move to species like sheep, moose, goat & bison. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. Why? Because every year it gets a little bit harder to draw that tag. Every year there is a little bit more pressure and/or less game available in general areas. Every year there are more and more residents noticing and complaining. None of this is a personal attack on nonresidents like some of you profess it to be and it has nothing to do with how other states allocate tags.
People live in Wyoming because hunting is a big part of their life and call it selfish or whatever, but residents want the most opportunity, within reason, that they can get. My money is on them getting it.
People live in Wyoming because hunting is a big part of their life and call it selfish or whatever, but residents want the most opportunity, within reason, that they can get. My money is on them getting it.
Hunt_the_West
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Starve to death with a biscuit in their hand...
mta5672
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Just maybe, Wyoming has no interest in being like Colorado...just saying!
wytex
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Wow, Jims, where do you get your info ? Lots of residents wait years and years to draw LQ elk tags and never get them, myself for one and my spouse. We don;t have PP for those tags don;t want them. You NR have PP and it really gives you a big advantage to draw some highly sought after tags.
Buzz and Jeff have both helped me and others with multiple aspects of WY hunting, asked nor expected anything in return.
On the other hand, you'll help someone with a WY Antelope hunt, provided they party with you and pay a trespass fee, and, as was the case in both 2018 and 2019, share their 5 Elk points with you in party apps.
I have no doubt you're a nice guy and all, but let's cut the bullchit here, you call Buzz out for not helping nr hunters, which he clearly does, but you only help when they're willing to "step up to the plate" and share their points.
I understand completely what JM is saying and it makes sense.
Although I'm not a fan of outfitters, I'm sure the outfitters will have a final say in a lot of what happens with nonres quotas....which is a saving grace for nonres. The outfitters likely know that OYO nonres hunters can use their support and maybe that's where the battle will be played?
WyTx,, similar to any resident in any state if you apply for tags with the toughest draw odds you may not draw in your lifetime. Wyo has so many options for fantastic limited deer, elk, and antelope with great draw odds that it's your fault as a resident if you decide you want to apply for the toughest odd units in Wyo! You can always hunt general deer and elk every year even though you apply for difficult draw odd units.
Well Buzz, you knocked another nail on the head! How about an 18 year old kid from Kansas that won't have a chance in his lifetime to draw a nonres elk tag because his dad is unwilling to pay $52/year for a pref pt and the draw odds just got cut in 1/2 with 90/10? Is there a difference between a nonres kid in Kansas and a resident kid in Wyoming? What happens to all the kids across the country that would enjoy hunting Wyo elk someday? You can count on losing more and more young nonres hunters to hunting if they don't feel they'll ever have a chance to draw tags. Does that matter?
Buzz, you certainly aren't gaining any popularity with the nonres "On your own" crowd! What do your buddies in Montana think about 90/10 and you not willing to support nonres OYO hunters? They plus all your nonres buddies won't be hunting with you much if this ever passes? The next time you pat yourself on the back about what you are doing in Cheyenne I'll remind you how much you care about nonres OYO hunters!
Personally, I haven't drawn an elk tag for a long time in Wyo so not sure where that is coming from? I'm not sure how many nonres hunters on this and other websites I've offered great advice and help to over the years. I don't pat myself on the back and post photos like Buzz though!
Although I'm not a fan of outfitters, I'm sure the outfitters will have a final say in a lot of what happens with nonres quotas....which is a saving grace for nonres. The outfitters likely know that OYO nonres hunters can use their support and maybe that's where the battle will be played?
WyTx,, similar to any resident in any state if you apply for tags with the toughest draw odds you may not draw in your lifetime. Wyo has so many options for fantastic limited deer, elk, and antelope with great draw odds that it's your fault as a resident if you decide you want to apply for the toughest odd units in Wyo! You can always hunt general deer and elk every year even though you apply for difficult draw odd units.
Well Buzz, you knocked another nail on the head! How about an 18 year old kid from Kansas that won't have a chance in his lifetime to draw a nonres elk tag because his dad is unwilling to pay $52/year for a pref pt and the draw odds just got cut in 1/2 with 90/10? Is there a difference between a nonres kid in Kansas and a resident kid in Wyoming? What happens to all the kids across the country that would enjoy hunting Wyo elk someday? You can count on losing more and more young nonres hunters to hunting if they don't feel they'll ever have a chance to draw tags. Does that matter?
Buzz, you certainly aren't gaining any popularity with the nonres "On your own" crowd! What do your buddies in Montana think about 90/10 and you not willing to support nonres OYO hunters? They plus all your nonres buddies won't be hunting with you much if this ever passes? The next time you pat yourself on the back about what you are doing in Cheyenne I'll remind you how much you care about nonres OYO hunters!
Personally, I haven't drawn an elk tag for a long time in Wyo so not sure where that is coming from? I'm not sure how many nonres hunters on this and other websites I've offered great advice and help to over the years. I don't pat myself on the back and post photos like Buzz though!
wytex
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Yep, unless they change the way tags are moved to the NR draw
after the Resident draw even 90/10 will not be a hard quota .
Lets put all those leftovers from the resident draw right into the leftover pool, not into the NR draw pool and leave your quota the same for a few years. Bet they'll be whining about that too.
wytex
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Sir, you have no idea which area I apply for. They are not the hardest to draw in the state, they are areas I know and can hunt close to home.
I hunt general areas every year for deer and almost every year for elk. The occasional LQ tag I pull is in an area I have a good possibility of drawing, I weigh my chances very closely.
How many times have you shared YOUR pp with a NR ?
BuzzH
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As to paragraph 1, according to you the hunting is great in ID, MT, CO, NE, so if they listen to you that 18 year old kid from Kansas can find as good, or better hunting in those states. The other option is to apply for a WY general tag, since the total number of full price NR elk tags wont change under 90/10...they'll still get 7,250 full price tags. The 18 year old kid from KS has the exact same amount of full price tags available to them.
Yes, my buddies and family will still hunt with me just as much as they currently do. NR's will still get around 50% of the pronghorn tags, all the available leftover cow/calf elk tags, and the general NR region wide tags for deer wont change.
The 90/10 change wont impact the number of total available NR tags, just give more priority for Residents in the higher demand areas, improving odds in those areas for Residents.
Any NR that wants to hunt elk, deer, or pronghorn in Wyoming will not be limited by available tags, only the where.
Adapt or die...
Zeke
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Oh, where to start.....
JM77 and Buzz have become personal friends of mine over the years and, as a NR hunter, they have both spend their time and talents to help me personally. I've enjoyed our many discussions and enjoyed breaking bread with them. I was even invited to stay with JM77 in his home, which I did and will always look upon with fondness.
Anyone who thinks these two gentlemen don't care about NR hunters isn't seeing the big picture! Why else would they go out of their way to make me feel so welcome. I'm certainly no one special!
I don't think that most resident hunter hate NR hunters but they do have a right to dictate how many tags we're allotted.
While it could feel a bit like bait-and-switch, because of points accumulated, if/when tags are cut, we will have to adapt or decide to pull out of their system. I, for one, will continue to support Wyoming in my small little way since they've been so damn good to me over the years!
Change has happened in every State around Wyoming and I'd suspect that we "didn't care" what Wyoming residents though about the change. It's the nature of the beast and I'll deal with it but I won't let it drive a wedge between me and my friends!
just my 2 cents, for free,
Zeke
JM77 and Buzz have become personal friends of mine over the years and, as a NR hunter, they have both spend their time and talents to help me personally. I've enjoyed our many discussions and enjoyed breaking bread with them. I was even invited to stay with JM77 in his home, which I did and will always look upon with fondness.
Anyone who thinks these two gentlemen don't care about NR hunters isn't seeing the big picture! Why else would they go out of their way to make me feel so welcome. I'm certainly no one special!
I don't think that most resident hunter hate NR hunters but they do have a right to dictate how many tags we're allotted.
While it could feel a bit like bait-and-switch, because of points accumulated, if/when tags are cut, we will have to adapt or decide to pull out of their system. I, for one, will continue to support Wyoming in my small little way since they've been so damn good to me over the years!
Change has happened in every State around Wyoming and I'd suspect that we "didn't care" what Wyoming residents though about the change. It's the nature of the beast and I'll deal with it but I won't let it drive a wedge between me and my friends!
just my 2 cents, for free,
Zeke
rmanwill
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Just a thought from a non resident. I realize I'm not guaranteed or entitled anything as a non resident. I love and appreciate visiting the state, the national park and fishing and hunting the great state of Wyoming and I have done so for over 35 years.
I'm one of those paying and playing the game to hunt in Wyoming and several other states.
Have hunted numerous game in Wyoming numerous times and plan to continue as I can.
Just one thought/situation is the wyoming moose application. Started building points 20 years ago when it cost a few dollars a year. Then it and the price of the tag went up and up over the years. Those in the top point pools are now having to decide to pull out or stay in and pay $150.00 a year to stay in the point pool.
7-8 years ago I was right there in the point pool to draw and due to wolves and bears hurting the moose population, tags issued dropped, which resulted in people falling several points out of the point pool to draw.
However, I'm again right there to draw several units and within a point of some of the better units.
Alot of non residents with less points abandoned the applications for moose and quit paying when it went to $150.00. Can't blame them. $150.00 a year for years and $2000.00 for the tag if successful in the draw now for a non resident and you can go to Canada or Alaska, whenever a guy wants for about the same price and bag a bigger species moose.
Now with so many dumping the $150.00 moose application there are fewer with enough points to justify applying and Wyoming has to have noticed a drop in revenue. So, heck a drop in tags numbers issued now to non residents would keep us that are still paying the $150.00 a year in there for twice as long/revenue ?.
Not complaining, just stating the situation/thoughts of a non resident. Like I stated, I play and pay to hunt. Just have to play and pay smarter and make a few hard decisions.
If Wyoming drops the tag numbers I will put in for one of the hunts I can draw and be done sooner then later and not wait and hope for one of the better units that will become a out of reach 30+ point unit in no time.
Sorry for the long thought, but righr now with current situation in the world I have more time on my hand to think and spend more time on this site?. Just me thinking out loud. Not trying to ruffle residents feathers. Love your state and you residents. Thanks to many of you that I know and have helped me with hunts and information in the past.
Stay safe everyone.
I'm one of those paying and playing the game to hunt in Wyoming and several other states.
Have hunted numerous game in Wyoming numerous times and plan to continue as I can.
Just one thought/situation is the wyoming moose application. Started building points 20 years ago when it cost a few dollars a year. Then it and the price of the tag went up and up over the years. Those in the top point pools are now having to decide to pull out or stay in and pay $150.00 a year to stay in the point pool.
7-8 years ago I was right there in the point pool to draw and due to wolves and bears hurting the moose population, tags issued dropped, which resulted in people falling several points out of the point pool to draw.
However, I'm again right there to draw several units and within a point of some of the better units.
Alot of non residents with less points abandoned the applications for moose and quit paying when it went to $150.00. Can't blame them. $150.00 a year for years and $2000.00 for the tag if successful in the draw now for a non resident and you can go to Canada or Alaska, whenever a guy wants for about the same price and bag a bigger species moose.
Now with so many dumping the $150.00 moose application there are fewer with enough points to justify applying and Wyoming has to have noticed a drop in revenue. So, heck a drop in tags numbers issued now to non residents would keep us that are still paying the $150.00 a year in there for twice as long/revenue ?.
Not complaining, just stating the situation/thoughts of a non resident. Like I stated, I play and pay to hunt. Just have to play and pay smarter and make a few hard decisions.
If Wyoming drops the tag numbers I will put in for one of the hunts I can draw and be done sooner then later and not wait and hope for one of the better units that will become a out of reach 30+ point unit in no time.
Sorry for the long thought, but righr now with current situation in the world I have more time on my hand to think and spend more time on this site?. Just me thinking out loud. Not trying to ruffle residents feathers. Love your state and you residents. Thanks to many of you that I know and have helped me with hunts and information in the past.
Stay safe everyone.
lostinOregon
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Buzz,
I have a question for you. Why did you post this topic on Monster Muleys when you are a regular on Randy's website, on your own adventures. You and Randy are friends and you post there much more than here, however I didn't see you post on this subject on that website.
Rich
I have a question for you. Why did you post this topic on Monster Muleys when you are a regular on Randy's website, on your own adventures. You and Randy are friends and you post there much more than here, however I didn't see you post on this subject on that website.
Rich
Cahunter805
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As a NR with points built up I understand the concern about tags taking longer to draw if this passes.
I also respect that residents want more LQ tags and they have that right and I feel they do deserve tags.
What do residents feel about 80/20? 85/15? Why does it have to change so much from current splits?
I also respect that residents want more LQ tags and they have that right and I feel they do deserve tags.
What do residents feel about 80/20? 85/15? Why does it have to change so much from current splits?
DirtyTough
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I did the math many posts back and I would guess Wyoming will lose 1.5-2 million on app fees between moose and sheep.
This is coming from someone that will never draw a sheep or moose tag in Wyoming since the math doesn’t work. I keep reading how residents should get more opportunity which some agree with and some don’t. But for such a limited species like sheep, moose, etc why isn’t it oil in states like Wyoming and Montana for residents?
I would think anyone that has drawn a sheep tag should feel blessed and wish their fellow hunter get to experience it also just like they themselves have gotten to. That is the one thing that blows my mind about draws for those types of animals.
SS!
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Why do you care so much about where one posts? You’re getting all creepy.
DirtyTough
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Because that’s what other states do. At least that’s what I read on this thread.
lostinOregon
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Not getting creepy at all. Some will understand.
Rich
Rich
grosventrehunter
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If you say Wyoming will lose 1.5-2 million then please raise my tag fees as a resident. I would gladly pay to play. I pay as a NR in other states with less chances for a tag, so I would be willing to pay more for better chances here in Wyoming.
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jm77
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You are way off on your math!
When the first 90/10 bill as introduced years back the fiscal note for changing Moose, sheep, goat & bison to 90/10 was a negative $170,000. This amount was what the Game & Fish came up with. They are required to provide this information by the Legislative Services Office.
If that included loss of preference point money, I haven't a clue, but that would be guess work and it certainly wouldn't be anything close your claim.
Charging residents $15.00 for a point and raising license fees on moose, sheep & goat by a $100 (all three now are around $120 and that is ridiculous cheap), more than make up for any loss.
There is no legislation and what it would look like is a wild guess. The guy behind this may or may not take constructive criticism well.
Conrad8899
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It was a beautiful day in Central Wyoming to go fishing limited out in a few hours.. But I couldn't help but notice all the out of state license plates Colorado, Utah, Idaho and a couple others I couldn't recognize.. Why would any one want to drive all this way just to fish in a state that treats nonresidents so badly.. If there is a short fall on big game revenue because of the 90/10 split maybe WG&F could raise nonresident fishing licenses? Or maybe WG&F could make every nonresident bye a fishing license before they can get a big game tag... jims doesn't Colorado make nonresidents bye a qualifying licenses before U purchase a big game tag or preference point.. These are just sum ideas that could help Game&Fish generate sum revenue.. And we can be just like Colorado LMAO
Right. I don't blame residents for wanting this, and it will pass at some point. It's just crazy times right now.
I guess we will find out how many essential working, hunters we have.
DirtyTough
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Show me where my math is wrong then guy.
Oh in the next paragraph you admit you haven’t a clue. Got it. Disregard my first sentence.
I've always tried to look at the big picture. This would include all of us as a hunting community. Resident/ Nonresident Tag quotas should be based on the amount of time a particular herd spends on Federal land. If a herd spends approximately 10% of it time on Federal land than 90% of the tags should be for residents as the herd is on private or state land 90% of the time. I'm sure that states rights including the management of nonmigratory wildlife has been tested in court. I think the Federal government should step in and incentivize the states to come up with a program where no discrimination occurs.
jm77
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The fiscal note on the bill said there would be a difference of $170,000. You say 1.5-2 million.
Take it up with the G&F Dept guy, their math is obviously different than yours.
grosventrehunter
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Since some want to make Wyoming like other states let's start making NR buy a hunting license like Utah ($75.00) and Nevada ($145.00). With this new hunting license it would surely make up for the lost revenue going to a 90/10 split. Anyone?
It's really a bummer that states charge for a license to apply and don't even plan on hunting unless they draw a tag! I have a feeling the same will happen in Wyo soon.
I'm sure Wyo res will also need to step up to the plate and buy a hunting license to apply?
I'm guessing all the pref pt fees plus having to buy a license may price a bunch of nonres out of the draw? Would the WG&F be better off not doing this and have more applicants that continue applying?
I'm sure Wyo res will also need to step up to the plate and buy a hunting license to apply?
I'm guessing all the pref pt fees plus having to buy a license may price a bunch of nonres out of the draw? Would the WG&F be better off not doing this and have more applicants that continue applying?
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Hunt_the_West
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Don’t forget AZ $160, CO $80, NM $65, and ID $155...
rmanwill
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Some states charge for licenses and some charge for point or a combination.
They all charge.
What I currently pay in Wyoming charges $150 for moose point, $50 for elk point, $40 for deer point, $30 for antelope point and some fees.
Plus I also put my wife and three boys in for Wyoming- I send them alot each year.
They all charge.
What I currently pay in Wyoming charges $150 for moose point, $50 for elk point, $40 for deer point, $30 for antelope point and some fees.
Plus I also put my wife and three boys in for Wyoming- I send them alot each year.
DirtyTough
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Lol your the one who said and I quote “You are way off on your math!”
Then a little further down you explain that you don’t have a clue if the $170,000 contained just tag fees or loss from preference point fees also. But still claim I’m wrong.
Now you tell me to take it up with G&F guy.
Just makes me laugh when someone says “You are wrong.” “I haven’t a clue” “Take it up with someone else even though I’m the one that said you are wrong”
Reminds me of the last thread where you asked if I even read it while you doubled down on your mis information. Definitely entertaining. Carry on JM.
jm77
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Since you want to carry on with this, ok here goes and maybe you can comprehend this: saying I didn't have a clue was a poor choice of words, but an accurate description of the number of nonresidents that would no longer apply for moose and sheep if it went to 90/10. Tell me what you think that number would be, because at 1.5-2 million in decreased revenue, it would have to be over 10,000 applicants, which happens to be half of the current applicants for those two species. That figure is just about as ridiculous as you trying to figure your way around someone's words to make yourself look like a genius.
Yeah, you are way off on your math. Carry on Dirt.
nripepi
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Just an FYI, but non-resident preference points seem to bring a lot of money into WY G&F.
There were the following number of non-residents with points in 2019:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Hunting/TOTAL_PREF_POINTS_EDA.pdf
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Hunting/TOTAL_PREF_POINTS_MS.pdf
Moose: 10,581 @ $150 per point = $1,587,150 maximum revenue per year (if everyone applied for a point)
Sheep: 10,694 @ $150 per = $1,604,100
Elk: 103,528 @ $52 per = $3,209,368
Antelope: 90,300 @ $31 per = $3,702,300
Deer: 86,887 @ $41 per point = $4,518,124
The max revenue in 2019 if everyone applied for a point is $14,621,042, but not everyone applies, right?
Check out B-14 on the Annual Report to see the table of numbers who have applied for points each of the years from 2013 - 2017 and how those are trending upwards:
Based on the 2017 data, but assuming the higher priced preference point fees ($150 for sheep and moose up from $100 and $75) is around $9.4 million in non-resident preference point fees (not counting non-resident youth fees). It might have been up to $10 million last year.
I am just guessing here, but if quotas were to be reduced to 10%, there would be significantly more than $170,000 lost in revenue from lost preference point fees. What that is is anyone's guess, but we have heard from many with upwards of 15-20+ sheep and moose points is that they are out when they draw and won't be back in. The same would likely happen for some getting deer and elk and antelope points. If I were pushing this, I think I would go for an 80/20 split to try and keep the residents happy and for the non-residents to keep paying the bills. We have heard from many on this thread about not applying in New Mexico after what they did to reduce NR-DIY to 6%, the same could definitely happen in Wyoming if they go to the full 90/10 split from where things are currently. I think most would guess the loss would be a few $million per year. Maybe not a big deal, but in the current situation the country is in and the current price of commodities (oil, gas and coal), the states must be sweating some.
DirtyTough
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I know they do. That's why I estimated that WY G&F would lose 1.5-2 mil in app fees from moose and sheep apps. There was around 10,500 apps for sheep. It would take over 90 years to clear out from max points through the 17 point pool if they dropped it to 10%.
How many guys are going to spend $225+ a year for a 1/10000 shot at 1 random tag if they aren't close to max? I personally believe most hunters aren't that well off, or that dumb. Moose is close to the same odds.
So if 4550 hunters drop out from the moose and sheep pool there is a $1.5mil loss. And the odds are still ridiculous for the 1 random tag. 1/5000 odds.
Yep I'm going with my math on this and not some measly $170,000. That is probably just revenue loss from tags. And I'll go out on a limb here and assume that number is for all oil species and not just moose and sheep.
It took a non refundable $150 to get a slight drop in moose apps last year. Sheep apps increased just like they’ve done every year. Making sheep/moose app choices based on logic doesn’t work, if it did there wouldn’t be anybody in the draw with less than dbl digit points.
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Everyone is a non-resident somewhere! It’s an endless battle that will do very little to increase draw odds.
It would be cool if somehow you paid whatever your home state charges non-residents for the same animal. If your home state charges non-residents $550 to hunt elk, then WY charges you the same amount!
It would be cool if somehow you paid whatever your home state charges non-residents for the same animal. If your home state charges non-residents $550 to hunt elk, then WY charges you the same amount!
BuzzH
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Oh, that's a great idea...so someone coming to Wyoming to hunt elk from Florida pays nothing for their tag.
Lots of thought put into that post.
SS!
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I’ve been reading forums for over 20 years and just when you think you’ve read it all....
nripepi
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I am not so sure it will increase or even stay stable if you get rid of all the random non-resident tags.
If you look at the numbers, the reason it is increasing is that non-residents with lower number of points are going after those random tags in 2, 3, 4 and 5:
2704 non-residents tried for a tag (26% of those getting sheep points) last year and 88% of them (2370) were in those 4 units that each offered 1 non-resident random tag and they are forced by Wyoming to "buy" the $150 preference point to apply. They were basically playing the lottery at 1:300 to 1:900 odds for $150. Once that goes away, why would they stay in. Over half of the bighorn sheep preference point holders have 6 or less points!
If there were no random tags, I think you would automatically lose about 25% of the applicants for sheep (400K) and likely more...probably up to 50% (800K) as many will see the writing on the wall. I would think something similar (maybe not quite as drastic would happen to moose and then maybe something a bit less for elk, deer and antelope), but it would likely all add up to a few million $ less per year in tags and preference points.
Maybe the extra tags are worth the money, maybe not, it really depends on your point of view. Wyoming will have to decide.
BuzzH
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Split the available 10% of sheep and moose into 50-50 for random and preference point draw...you'll increase applications and funding.
Win-win-win...
jm77
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Here's an interesting tidbit that might make most NR sheep point holders less than happy. In 2019 only 10% of available sheep licenses were in the random draw. Regulation requires "at least 75%" of sheep licenses for the preference point draw. In this case it is 90% and there is no requirement to look at individual areas to facilitate a random tag. The G&F can total all NR tags and take 25% from anywhere they want and make them random.
If sheep went to 90/10 res/nr there would be approx. 22 nr sheep tags and the G&F could issue 5 random nr tags if they wanted to(which I'm sure they would to keep interest). That's one more random than they issue now.
If anything, the G&F is not being consistent with the way they issue these tags, because they make sure 25% of all sheep tags go to nr no matter how they are allocated by area.
If sheep went to 90/10 res/nr there would be approx. 22 nr sheep tags and the G&F could issue 5 random nr tags if they wanted to(which I'm sure they would to keep interest). That's one more random than they issue now.
If anything, the G&F is not being consistent with the way they issue these tags, because they make sure 25% of all sheep tags go to nr no matter how they are allocated by area.
nripepi
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That will make those sitting on 20 points real happy!
BuzzH
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That will make those sitting on 20 points real happy!
It will make a bunch more happy that don't have 20 points, increase applicants and increase revenue to the GF.
If we're using revenue as the only argument, then changing to a 50-50 split of the tags will do that.
Also, if we're worried about attracting new hunters, keeping things the way they are wont do that. You have to create a system that gives them half the available tags if you want to increase new applicants.
Like I said, 50-50 split of 10% of the NR allocation would be a win-win-win.
nripepi
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Not sure if it is a win-win-win for those who have 15-20 points. I understand it would be better for everyone else, but definitely a kick in the gut to those who have been patiently waiting in line and paying for points. Would be nice for that group if you were allowed to get your money back from past years!
BuzzH
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Why should they get their money back? They got 100% of what they paid for, a point. There was no promise of a tag, ever, implied or otherwise. There was the promise they would receive a point for their money, increasing their odds, but not assuring them anything else.
nripepi
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Maybe, but maybe not. It would be up for the courts to decide I think, not us on a forum.
You have 1500 sportspersons (from 15-20 points) who have spent $1.5 million for their points based on "increasing their odds" as you stated above as the reason they have spent money on tags. Then one day the amount of available tags is reduced from 18.75% of the allotted tags to 5% for non-resident max point holders, surely "decreasing their odds".
A judge could possibly interpret it as a bait and switch sort of move where you spent $1,000 and 20 years to have the tag pool reduced by 73% and you go from likely drawing a tag in 5-10 years to likely never drawing a tag? It would be nice if they gave you an out and your money back before sweeping the rug out from under you. Don't you think?
I know you say the systems change, but has any of the systems changed this drastically with this amount of money and time invested where you would go from getting a tag relatively soon to not ever getting a tag? I can't think of one, but maybe it does exist somewhere.
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
