90/10 not going away...

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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4,163
Why? if its a, tax, write off for mileage(as, buzz stated in his post) dont see why they wouldn't
Find me an outfitter in Cody that recommends their hunters fly into Cheyenne...

You ever driven in Wyoming during hunting season?

Good grief.
 

nfh

Long Time Member
Messages
6,506
Anyone want to talk about the outfitters in the Cody and Northern WY area driving to Billings to buy all their food, etc. from Sam's Club, Costco, etc. for their clients/outfitted hunts?

You know, good old salt of the earth Wyoming outfitters saving a boat load of money by avoiding paying sales tax in Wyoming (no sales tax in MT either) and to save hundreds rather than "shopping local".

This statement is very true. I would like to add that a lot of outfitters put clients up in their own house instead of a motel before a hunt. Some do and some dont.

Also hunting as a non resident in Montana this year my only expenses was the tag. Thats it. Everything else was spent at home.
 
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nfh

Long Time Member
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6,506
Yep drive an hour and 45min to save sales tax?

Should see Billings in a weekend. Full of Wyoming plates. I personally do this. Billings has Costco and sams club so we can buy bulk. Then hit Scheels and the 600 stores the wife has to stop at. Grocery shopping in billings is much cheaper than the local stores. We do shop locally. But it's much more efficient to buy a pallet or ranch for a few bucks at coscto instead of buying a extra small ranch where i live for the same price.
 

nfh

Long Time Member
Messages
6,506
The main outfitters around Cody use Yellowstone regional airport in cody. Most outfitters pick clients up there and off to the hunt or some as i stated earlier may stay at their house or some get a motel. I even seen outfitters flip the bill for the motel.

Now Cody just lost delta flights. I believe cody to salt lake if i recall will be gone. But still have United flights to Denver. They are looking at other options.
 

elks96

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2,748
Elk96, you make sense. I just tend to look at most of Buzz's post as a bunch of hot air.
Yeah. I only know it because we do it as well. Not to mention that BIllings also has Scheels. Which is superior to any sporting good store we have... Last time I went we spent a little over $500 at Scheels, time before was closer to $2000.
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
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1,491
Those Outfitters that are so worried about the Wyoming economy also want to exempt their clients from paying a lodging tax.

 

DonVathome

Very Active Member
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1,564
I think you're hosed.

There's 282 people in your point pool alone.

Another 106 in front of you with points.

What's going to happen between now and then is massive point creep as those with 20+ are going to try to draw before 90/10 in any unit they feel they have enough points for. I bet this year, at least 1 full point of creep for every sheep tag, possibly more.

If the change to bonus points happen, you're back to essentially a random draw with your 26-27 (by then) bonus points...you'll really see the top guys drawing anywhere they can. Those that now have 24-27 will be drawing most all of the 10% NR quota.

If 90/10 passes there is going to be a lot of happy R moose, sheep, goat, and bison hunters.

I was talking to another hunter in AZ on my recent coues hunt, he's in the 23 point pool for sheep and moose (NR). He's going to apply for sheep for sure this year, may take a chance on moose as he's in a much better place.

One of my best friends (NR) has 25 for sheep and he's going to try draw before 90-10 and definitely before his preference points switch to bonus. He's in a much better place than you, he will get a preference tag no matter what happens.
BuzzH I agree - that is exaclty what I think, just 1 more point would REALLY help. if this all goes down I suspect the year before bonus points starts (roughly 5 years from now) I will be in EXACTLY the same boat as now with exactly the same odds as 2021. Well not exaclt the same boat. I will be out at least $500 more points:)
 

LIK2HNT

Very Active Member
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1,228
I remember in the late 80’s early 90’s every restaurant, hotel, and a lot of other business in small towns in Colorado all had “Welcome Hunter” signs!!
Was pretty nice before hunting became big business.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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4,163
BuzzH I agree - that is exaclty what I think, just 1 more point would REALLY help. if this all goes down I suspect the year before bonus points starts (roughly 5 years from now) I will be in EXACTLY the same boat as now with exactly the same odds as 2021. Well not exaclt the same boat. I will be out at least $500 more points:)
I think that's optimistic, but not reality.

I doubt you'll draw a preference tag if it goes 90/10 and your points move to bonus in 4-5 years.

Too many in front of you and in your pool.
 

jims

Very Active Member
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2,733
Wyo nonres guided plus nonres unguided retail spending/day = $1,323,77

Wyo resident retail spending = $143.91

Not even close! What happens to local small town revenues if 1/2 of the limited tags are taken from nonres? If I lived in a small town in Wyo and owned a small business I would be extremely concerned about 90/10!

IMG_4374.jpg
 
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jims

Very Active Member
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2,733
Here's another interesting table from Colorado. Take a look at the 2nd sentence above the table. I believe nonres are extremely important to small local town revenues!

Colo small town communities welcome nonres hunters with open arms!

IMG_5558.jpg
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
I think that's optimistic, but not reality.

I doubt you'll draw a preference tag if it goes 90/10 and your points move to bonus in 4-5 years.

Too many in front of you and in your pool.
Move to bonus????
Let’s see some source documents.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,400
Compare the economic impact of 4.79 million visitors in one year to Yellowstone Park next to the contribution of all hunters in the same area of Wyoming. Changing license allocations isn't putting anyone out of business or even effecting them in a meaningful way. This argument has become very boring.
 

Teepee

Active Member
Messages
239
Move to bonus????
Let’s see some source documents.
Booner,


Lots of discussion on the move to a weighted bonus point system (squared) during the wildlife task force meetings. Recordings of the meetings are on-line. Probably won't go into effect for 4 or 5 years (if/when legislature changes it) to give some of the top tier pref pt holders a chance to use their points.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
Booner,


Lots of discussion on the move to a weighted bonus point system (squared) during the wildlife task force meetings. Recordings of the meetings are on-line. Probably won't go into effect for 4 or 5 years (if/when legislature changes it) to give some of the top tier pref pt holders a chance to use their points.
Thanks for posting that. So, if they do this what about a guy who has 25 or so points banked up and decides to move to WY? Do those become Res preference points or is that just something they don’t care about/haven’t thought of?
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
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1,491
Thanks for posting that. So, if they do this what about a guy who has 25 or so points banked up and decides to move to WY? Do those become Res preference points or is that just something they don’t care about/haven’t thought of?
Res would move to bonus points as well. Currently pp’s follow the person regardless of residency so I would assume BP’s would as well
 

Teepee

Active Member
Messages
239
My understanding of the system is that a non-resident moving to Wyoming would retain their pref points and would be changed to resident bonus points when/if the system changes. The change from pref pt to bonus point affects both non-residents and residents for moose & sheep. I haven't heard any discussion about changing non-resident elk/deer/lope pref pts to bonus points.

Another thing to be aware of is that the task force proposed to make the big five (bull moose/bighorn ram/goat/male bison/griz) a once in a lifetime tag.

https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/recommendations-from-the-taskforce
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
Res would move to bonus points as well. Currently pp’s follow the person regardless of residency so I would assume BP’s would as well
Slightly more palatable versus the alternative but everyone who has invested in this scheme has done so under the premise of good faith, especially after 25 years. Sure, we are all under no presumption of ever being successful but to completely change the structure of the point system after that kind of financial and time investment by many should be the stimulus of a revolt with the sportsmen who have been placing their trust in the system.
 

Ultimag

Active Member
Messages
597
Distance !!!
Meaning the further they travel. The more they can write off that's the theory.
But it's not that simple they can't write all of it off, every buisness has, overhead and expenses, they can't write all of it off as, a, buisness expenses just not that easy or simple.
 

Ultimag

Active Member
Messages
597
Grizzly hunts, will never happen
How long have fws been trying to get them delisted? Only to have the courts/judges, put an abrut halt to the hunts
Before his, 4 year term is up the current administration in the oval office will also relist wolves & just like grizzly's, it will be impossible to get them delisted, if you doubt it
Remember you also thought trump.had the election won before it was, even held and we, all see how that ended. Never say never
 

jims

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2,733
There are many small town communities scattered across Wyo that are many miles from Yellowstone and Jackson that hardly see a visitor until hunting season. These isolated small towns would be impacted the most by 90/10.
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
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1,491
Slightly more palatable versus the alternative but everyone who has invested in this scheme has done so under the premise of good faith, especially after 25 years. Sure, we are all under no presumption of ever being successful but to completely change the structure of the point system after that kind of financial and time investment by many should be the stimulus of a revolt with the sportsmen who have been placing their trust in the system.
Then have at it and revolt!

Show Wyoming that you are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!

Or you could accept change, learn, modifiy, overcome and adapt. Either way good luck this season.
 

rmanwill

Long Time Member
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5,535
Slightly more palatable versus the alternative but everyone who has invested in this scheme has done so under the premise of good faith, especially after 25 years. Sure, we are all under no presumption of ever being successful but to completely change the structure of the point system after that kind of financial and time investment by many should be the stimulus of a revolt with the sportsmen who have been placing their trust in the system.
I understand both sides. I do have 21 NR moose and invested a lot of years and money.

However, I see the F&G side. A lot of people with less then about 18 points have been dropping out of the application point pool for several years now. At $150.00 a year for just a point they need to try to get them people back into the chase.

Not good for us with top end points, but a lot of people that stopped putting in will now be behind also. However, like I stated, there is alot of money left on the table that they have not been getting lately just for people applying for points.
 

DonVathome

Very Active Member
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1,564
I think that's optimistic, but not reality.

I doubt you'll draw a preference tag if it goes 90/10 and your points move to bonus in 4-5 years.

Too many in front of you and in your pool.
Buzz when I said 1 more point I meant if I started 1 year earlier. I do agree. I bet that if this all goes down the last year (5 years away) before they go to bonus points I will have about the same odds as I had in 2021. It is not looking good. That said several decent hunts with 20% odds - yes guys will bail into them BUT guys will also drop out. I suspect I have a 50/50 chance at a tag by 2027, maybe worse. Probably worse. ggggrrrr ah well, trying to make the best of it. If the 90/10 split got delayed just 2-3 more years I am golden.
 

Bookhead

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628
There are some people on here that have said the same thing 150 different ways every year on this topic. Find a new topic everyone who remotely cares knows your opinions, thanks
 

Booner

Member
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97
What is the soonest it will go into affect? I have 22 points and I am very very close to good sheep tags. I can draw the toughest hunts in the wilderness (I am a NR) this year. If things stay the same I will get a good tag in 4 years or less. If it changes I MIGHT get a tag in 10 years. If they also drastically change the NR draw for to mostly, or all, bonus points I will likely never draw.

In other words this is a big deal to me. I have been dreaming about this hunt for 22 years and spent a lot of time, money and reasearch on it. I am sad and angry I might never get to hunt sheep in WY.
If you have 22 points you passed “close to good” sheep tags a while back. You could draw a pile of damn good ones.
 

CWeeks

Active Member
Messages
187
As a nonresident with 21 sheep points and 57yo, I'm feeling even more used and abused. Wyoming has gladly taken more and more of my money over the years for the opportunity to one day draw a Bighorn tag. Now they may change the rules to make it unlikely to draw this tag while I'm physically able to do this hunt. The state has profited from a ratio(80/20) that hundreds of nonresidents felt was acceptable during this time of investment. Seems like a breach of contract to me, but at the very least it shows a lack of character in the ones making this decision which affects so many that have been sending checks to Wyoming in good faith for so many years.
 

OldMan2

Member
Messages
75
As a nonresident with 21 sheep points and 57yo, I'm feeling even more used and abused. Wyoming has gladly taken more and more of my money over the years for the opportunity to one day draw a Bighorn tag. Now they may change the rules to make it unlikely to draw this tag while I'm physically able to do this hunt. The state has profited from a ratio(80/20) that hundreds of nonresidents felt was acceptable during this time of investment. Seems like a breach of contract to me, but at the very least it shows a lack of character in the ones making this decision which affects so many that have been sending checks to Wyoming in good faith for so many years.
I hear ya. Felt good to burn my 23 pts in CO in 2021 (69 yo). I will miss the small game and fishing licenses they thought I needed! $$$ Hunting in November, I didn’t know whether to bring open water or ice fishing gear! 😜
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
As a nonresident with 21 sheep points and 57yo, I'm feeling even more used and abused. Wyoming has gladly taken more and more of my money over the years for the opportunity to one day draw a Bighorn tag. Now they may change the rules to make it unlikely to draw this tag while I'm physically able to do this hunt. The state has profited from a ratio(80/20) that hundreds of nonresidents felt was acceptable during this time of investment. Seems like a breach of contract to me, but at the very least it shows a lack of character in the ones making this decision which affects so many that have been sending checks to Wyoming in good faith for so many years.
Exactly. I think over 25 years we are owed the expectation of a sincere intention to be fair, open, and honest, regardless of the outcome of the interaction. Can populations go up or down and tag numbers fluctuate, of course. Cost of points, sure. This whole 90/10, whatever. But to change the fundamental premise of how the game is played, that has been going for a 1/4 century?? Life ain’t fair, but this bonus point talk is BS. If it’s a money thing raise the prices. You know we will pay.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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4,163
As a nonresident with 21 sheep points and 57yo, I'm feeling even more used and abused. Wyoming has gladly taken more and more of my money over the years for the opportunity to one day draw a Bighorn tag. Now they may change the rules to make it unlikely to draw this tag while I'm physically able to do this hunt. The state has profited from a ratio(80/20) that hundreds of nonresidents felt was acceptable during this time of investment. Seems like a breach of contract to me, but at the very least it shows a lack of character in the ones making this decision which affects so many that have been sending checks to Wyoming in good faith for so many years.
Well, now see that's where you're wrong.

Wyoming gladly took your money for the purchase of a preference point.

Show me where Wyoming promised you a sheep tag.

It doesn't show a lack of character at all by those pushing for treating the resident sportsmen of Wyoming in a more fair and equitable way. The same way Wyoming Residents are treated in regard to license allocations in States they are NR in.

The task force is listening to the Sportsmen of Wyoming that want more opportunity at sheep, goat, bison, moose, and eventually grizzly bears. That's exactly what they should do.

For the record, when was the last time you made a recommendation in the State you live in to increase NR opportunity there? Lower NR license fees there? Etc. etc.
 
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Booner

Member
Messages
97
The very first sentence in the app booklet on page 14 under the heading “Preference Points” states this: …designed to improve an applicant’s odds of eventually drawing a license in a hard to draw hunt area. That’s all we are expecting and quite frankly are owed. There is not a single sentence or hint to the purchaser that- hey, we may have this system in place for 30 or so years then pull the rug out from under you. Truth in government, it’s a hard concept to wrap a guys head around.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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4,163
The very first sentence in the app booklet on page 14 under the heading “Preference Points” states this: …designed to improve an applicant’s odds of eventually drawing a license in a hard to draw hunt area. That’s all we are expecting and quite frankly are owed. There is not a single sentence or hint to the purchaser that- hey, we may have this system in place for 30 or so years then pull the rug out from under you. Truth in government, it’s a hard concept to wrap a guys head around.
Right improve your chances, if you live to be 120 years old, sheep don't continue to decline or the draw percentages change, you should, I reckon, improve your odds at a tag.

You're getting what you pay for, a point.

You're owed and entitled to nothing...we don't owe any NR a tag of any kind.

For the record, I've had several point systems changed over the last 25 years I've applied all over, and the last 42 in Montana.

Montana adopted a preference system for a long time, then did away with it completely. Montana also went from a straight bonus point to squared bonus point.

Colorado went from allowing NR to apply for RFW tags to not allowing us to apply at all. They also dropped the requirement to front the money, dropping my odds to near zero.

AZ changed allocations to preference and random tags.

UT went from allowing you to only apply for one OIL to all of them.

The entire time I've applied, in all states as a NR never was I afforded more than 10% of another States sheep, moose, goat, or bison tags.

Why do you feel WY owes NR more?

Should I keep going or is your outrage selective?
 
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Booner

Member
Messages
97
Right improve your chances, if you live to be 120 years old, sheep don't continue to decline or the draw percentages change, you should, I reckon, improve your odds at a tag.

You're getting what you pay for, a point.
Not everyone starts applying in their late 70s…

From the current stats it appears those chances vastly improve in some/most units around the 21yr mark.

We expect exactly what we paid for, the odds of obtaining a license to eventually increase. Not some bait and switch BS because someone wants to make more money.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
Not everyone starts applying in their late 70s…

From the current stats it appears those chances vastly improve in some/most units around the 21yr mark.

We expect exactly what we paid for, the odds of obtaining a license to eventually increase. Not some bait and switch BS because someone wants to make more money.
You can also buy a sheep hunt in Canada, Alaska, or Mexico if you're that wrapped up around the axle about it. You don't even have to buy points to do it.

Nothing stopping you, but you.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
You can also buy a sheep hunt in Canada, Alaska, or Mexico if you're that wrapped up around the axle about it. You don't even have to buy points to do it.

Nothing stopping you, but you.
I’ve done that, but don’t know what that has to do with the current topic.

The axle I am wrapped around is being sold on an idea for 25 years and then having the entire premise of that idea reduced to garbage.

We all know your ego won’t allow you to see things with an impartial lens. You got your ram after you put in your time, so F the rest of you idiots who thought the game wouldn’t change. That’s essentially what we hear from your keyboard.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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4,163
I’ve done that, but don’t know what that has to do with the current topic.

The axle I am wrapped around is being sold on an idea for 25 years and then having the entire premise of that idea reduced to garbage.

We all know your ego won’t allow you to see things with an impartial lens. You got your ram after you put in your time, so F the rest of you idiots who thought the game wouldn’t change. That’s essentially what we hear from your keyboard.
Do it again...don't let WY's "garbage" slow you down. What it means is you have options, lots of them. Don't apply in Wyoming, apply in MT, UT, AZ, NV, CO, NM, if you think WY is such a raw deal. Or buy another sheep hunt, you have options, use them.

You're not required to apply for sheep or anything else here.

All I hear from a lot of NR's keyboard is high-pitched whining...we'll call it even.

BTW, you still have time to burn your 25 points you allegedly have, and could be out of the sheep game already. Time to burn them...pitter-patter.
 
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PLK

Active Member
Messages
245
Do it again...don't let WY's "garbage" slow you down. What it means is you have options, lots of them. Don't apply in Wyoming, apply in MT, UT, AZ, NV, CO, NM, if you think WY is such a raw deal. Or buy another sheep hunt, you have options, use them.

You're not required to apply for sheep or anything else here.

All I hear from a lot of NR's keyboard is high-pitched whining...we'll call it even.

BTW, you still have time to burn your 25 points you allegedly have, and could be out of the sheep game already. Time to burn them...pitter-patter.
Buzz,

Can you post a draft copy of the bill that you referenced in your earlier post? Or perhaps post a link. Thanks
 

SS!

Long Time Member
Messages
4,074
There are many small town communities scattered across Wyo that are many miles from Yellowstone and Jackson that hardly see a visitor until hunting season. These isolated small towns would be impacted the most by 90/10.
If you own a business that relies on the short hunting season to turn a profit you deserve to go out of business.

No one is buying what you’re trying to sell Jims. Honestly it degrades any valid points you may one day present to us regarding anything related to Wyoming.
 

30Hart

Very Active Member
Messages
1,447
Well, now see that's where you're wrong.

Wyoming gladly took your money for the purchase of a preference point.

Show me where Wyoming promised you a sheep tag.

It doesn't show a lack of character at all by those pushing for treating the resident sportsmen of Wyoming in a more fair and equitable way. The same way Wyoming Residents are treated in regard to license allocations in States they are NR in.

The task force is listening to the Sportsmen of Wyoming that want more opportunity at sheep, goat, bison, moose, and eventually grizzly bears. That's exactly what they should do.

For the record, when was the last time you made a recommendation in the State you live in to increase NR opportunity there? Lower NR license fees there? Etc. etc.
I agree they never promised me a sheep but I bought prefence points not bonus points and that is a breach of contract. Preference points are worth more than bonus points hence the breach of contract...not that anything will come of it. When they convert to bonus points they should have an offer of a refund or conversion to bonus points...not that I'd take the money either, but that would make it fair from a contract law legal standpoint. Your right changing to 90/10 or 99/1 or canceling hunting has no bearing on us NRs buying preference points.
 

wybighorn

Active Member
Messages
291
The very first sentence in the app booklet on page 14 under the heading “Preference Points” states this: …designed to improve an applicant’s odds of eventually drawing a license in a hard to draw hunt area. That’s all we are expecting and quite frankly are owed. There is not a single sentence or hint to the purchaser that- hey, we may have this system in place for 30 or so years then pull the rug out from under you. Truth in government, it’s a hard concept to wrap a guys head around.
1641930174515.png
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
I purposefully never used the word entitled because I agree. No one has stated they are entitled to anything. Entitlement is the belief that you are inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. Probably a buzz word for folks. There is damn sure an expectation though based on what was sold. The expectation to eventually improve your odds.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
I agree they never promised me a sheep but I bought prefence points not bonus points and that is a breach of contract. Preference points are worth more than bonus points hence the breach of contract...not that anything will come of it. When they convert to bonus points they should have an offer of a refund or conversion to bonus points...not that I'd take the money either, but that would make it fair from a contract law legal standpoint. Your right changing to 90/10 or 99/1 or canceling hunting has no bearing on us NRs buying preference points.
Not going to happen...

Who determines if preference points are worth more than bonus points?

I guess I should sue the State of Montana since I was only buying a single bonus point for the first 10 years.

I've determined that my individual points were worth way more than my squared points...therefore breach of contract?

Yeah...fantasyland BS, good luck with the lawsuit tuffie.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
I purposefully never used the word entitled because I agree. No one has stated they are entitled to anything. Entitlement is the belief that you are inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. Probably a buzz word for folks. There is damn sure an expectation though based on what was sold. The expectation to eventually improve your odds.
I have expectations to draw every tag I apply for every year...but it's not reality. The reality is, the more often I apply the more tags I get. Same with points, you are getting the expectation of perceived increased odds with the more points you have. But the reality is, you still may not ever draw.

Perception is not reality.

The privilege you have is what Residents are willing to give you every time you apply for a tag we allow you to have access to...not a thing more.
 
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Booner

Member
Messages
97
Do it again...don't let WY's "garbage" slow you down. What it means is you have options, lots of them. Don't apply in Wyoming, apply in MT, UT, AZ, NV, CO, NM, if you think WY is such a raw deal. Or buy another sheep hunt, you have options, use them.

You're not required to apply for sheep or anything else here.

All I hear from a lot of NR's keyboard is high-pitched whining...we'll call it even.

BTW, you still have time to burn your 25 points you allegedly have, and could be out of the sheep game already. Time to burn them...pitter-patter.
Your reading comprehension and tact are obviously lacking. I never said I had 25 points, it is obvious the system has been around that long. I’ve got 20.
When a point that contradicts your opinion is made your favorite routine is to deflect and offer childish criticism that really has no bearing on the subject. Keep up the good work.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
Your reading comprehension and tact are obviously lacking. I never said I had 25 points, it is obvious the system has been around that long. I’ve got 20.
When a point that contradicts your opinion is made your favorite routine is to deflect and offer childish criticism that really has no bearing on the subject. Keep up the good work.
Take the money you save by not applying for sheep this year and buying a point...buy chances at the trifecta and/or sheep raffle tags.

Probably better odds and you don't have to buy a point.

Win-win....

System has been in place 27 years...not 25, FWIW.

Also, what I proposed to the task force was 90/10, keep preference system and 50/50 split random/preference both R and NR. Sy Gilliland proposed the same thing and I still think its the best idea.

A couple of the other task force members are pushing the other idea of squared bonus points. I'm not going to die on a hill over either. The goal was always about 90-10 for Residents.

Die on your own hill...I'll keep my powder dry for something that matters.
 
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Booner

Member
Messages
97
Take the money you save by not applying for sheep this year and buying a point...buy chances at the trifecta and/or sheep raffle tags.

Probably better odds and you don't have to buy a point.

Win-win....

System has been in place 27 years...not 25, FWIW.

Also, what I proposed to the task force was 90/10, keep preference system and 50/50 split random/preference both R and NR. Sy Gilliland proposed the same thing and I still think its the best idea.

A couple of the other task force members are pushing the other idea of squared bonus points. I'm not going to die on a hill over either. The goal was always about 90-10 for Residents.

Die on your own hill...I'll keep my powder dry for something that matters.
27yrs. Got it.
Looks like we are on the same hill. I don’t care about the 90/10. I’m young. The dream is free.
 

30Hart

Very Active Member
Messages
1,447
Not going to happen...

Who determines if preference points are worth more than bonus points?

I guess I should sue the State of Montana since I was only buying a single bonus point for the first 10 years.

I've determined that my individual points were worth way more than my squared points...therefore breach of contract?

Yeah...fantasyland BS, good luck with the lawsuit tuffie.
Again please fully read and comprehend my post no need for calling names. I work and deal with contract law everyday but my post makes no reference to a lawsuit. Why because that takes alot of money and no rich guy is going to waste their time when they can just buy another auction sheep tag and go hunting. I'm just stating that there's a really good case for breach of contract is all. And they did the same with my Montana points too buddy!!!
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
Again please fully read and comprehend my post no need for calling names. I work and deal with contract law everyday but my post makes no reference to a lawsuit. Why because that takes alot of money and no rich guy is going to waste their time when they can just buy another auction sheep tag and go hunting. I'm just stating that there's a really good case for breach of contract is all. And they did the same with my Montana points too buddy!!!
Totally disagree...and I look at quite a bit of contract language as well.

Not seeing a case at all.

You had preference points in Montana back in the 70's when they totally took them away?
 

30Hart

Very Active Member
Messages
1,447
Totally disagree...and I look at quite a bit of contract language as well.

Not seeing a case at all.

You had preference points back in the 70's that they totally took them away?
I can respect your disagreement...my only argument is I bought prefence points not bonus points. Preference points were fully defined in the regulations when I bought them. Now if they want to change them to bonus points without my consent that's an issue because I assume their definition of bonus points will totally negate the contract I had with them when I purchased them...hence breach of contract. They have decided to arbitrarily change the definition and type of points I bought after a significant investment of money and time on my part. With this logic then they can change anything in the middle of the game with no recourse to the buyer. Fun to discuss different points of view on this but Wyoming will do as it pleases.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
So where is this contact wyoming signed with you where we owe you a sheep tag id love to see it
I’ve read through 4 pages of various opinions on this topic and haven’t seen anyone say the state of WY owes them a sheep tag. Maybe I missed it, I’d love to see it.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
If you have 20 points going into the 2022 draw there is 600 people ahead of you. 90/10 with a 50/50 split pretty much means you aren't drawing for a long time. Bonus points squared might work out better for you.
True, but it isn’t always about is what is beneficial to the one who will gain the advantage. It’s about a handshake. One would think of all places that still means something in WY.
 

30Hart

Very Active Member
Messages
1,447
True, but it isn’t always about is what is beneficial to the one who will gain the advantage. It’s about a handshake. One would think of all places that still means something in WY.
Very well said Booner. Wyoming is my favorite state to hunt...was a resident there for 4 years and it has blessed me with a 180lb record book tom, record book shiras moose, my 2 biggest elk and my biggest mule deer plus dozens of nice antelope.
 

jims

Very Active Member
Messages
2,733

Here's a pretty interesting article with specific examples about hunter revenue impacts to local economies in Colorado. Wyo res are fooling themselves if they think local economies don't prosper from hunters...and in particular nonres hunters!​

Big-game hunting is big money for Colorado​

Stephen Meyers
stephenmeyers@coloradoan.com

Colorado's nearly $1 billion hunting industry opened its first rifle season Saturday, the prime time for elk hunting as hunters — many traveling from out of state — don their camouflage and orange and go deep into the woods and their pockets to stalk big game.

Hunting generates $38.1 million annually in total economic output in Larimer County, the fifth-highest total by county in the state, according to a recent study of the economic impact of Colorado outdoor recreation.

Combined with fishing, Colorado hunting recreation is a $2.8 billion economic driver, according to the report by Southwick Associates, commissioned by Colorado Parks and Wildlife and published in February. Hunting and fishing is the second-largest tourism industry in Colorado, trailing only skiing.

"This time of year, you go into a restaurant or cafe in these small mountain towns and 80 percent of the customers are wearing camouflage or blaze orange hats, depending on the season," said Josh Soholt, owner of Gannett Ridge Hunting Equipment, which later this month will move from its North College Avenue location to 3006 N. Mulberry St.. "Hunting is a huge economic boost."

Colorado Parks and Wildlife collected $38 million in elk and deer licenses from nonresidents in 2012-2013, compared with $7.6 million from in-state hunters.

Bruce Ayers of Eaton-based Ponderosa Outfitters said about 95 percent of his elk hunting clientele are nonresidents. That number is about 80 percent for Wes Atkinson, owner of Atkinson Expeditions in Fort Collins.

"I've got groups from the East Coast, the South, a lot from Texas," said Atkinson, whose team of seven guides leads about 200 trips a year.

Hunting's trickle-down effect

Before heading to the mountains or plains for a multiday hunting trip, many local and out-of-state hunters gear up in Larimer County, a major hub for hunting-related gear retail.
According to the study, Larimer County generated $4.1 million in retail trade sales of hunting-related gear.

Hunting also creates 574 jobs in Larimer County, second to El Paso and Arapahoe counties.

For smaller Larimer County communities like Red Feather Lakes, or Walden in Jackson County 100 miles west of Fort Collins, the fall big-game hunting season is the lifeblood of the local economy.

"Hunting affects a lot of businesses, bars, restaurants, hotels, gas stations. Everybody gets a boost from the hunters," said James Carothers, owner of the Moose Creek Cafe in Walden. "It's our lifesaver."

Pat Martinez, a retired Colorado Parks and Wildlife (formerly Division of Wildlife) biologist, said the economic impacts of hunting extend past the hunter and their ammunition.
Martinez is co-chair of the newly formed organization Hunting Works for Colorado, which has created partnerships with sporting organizations and small businesses in rural Colorado towns that serve as the gateway to prime hunting grounds.


 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,400
I can respect your disagreement...my only argument is I bought prefence points not bonus points. Preference points were fully defined in the regulations when I bought them. Now if they want to change them to bonus points without my consent that's an issue because I assume their definition of bonus points will totally negate the contract I had with them when I purchased them...hence breach of contract. They have decided to arbitrarily change the definition and type of points I bought after a significant investment of money and time on my part. With this logic then they can change anything in the middle of the game with no recourse to the buyer. Fun to discuss different points of view on this but Wyoming will do as it pleases.
Afterall the previous posts and interactions, you've really surprised me on this thread.
 

jims

Very Active Member
Messages
2,733
In “Economic Contributions of Big Game Hunting in Wyoming,” a study conducted by Southwick Associates—one of the nation’s leading outdoor research and economics firms—just how important big game hunting is to the state’s economy becomes clear. Using surveys of Wyoming’s licensed resident and nonresident big game hunters, combined with economic models specific to Wyoming’s economy, economic insights were generated for all big game hunters combined, along with breakouts for residents, guided nonresidents and unguided nonresident big game hunters.

Reducing the number of nonresident tags could exponentially negatively impact tax revenues, sales revenues and jobs in the state. Here’s a look at why by the numbers:

The typical resident hunter who responded to the survey hunted nearly 13 days for big game in 2015. The typical nonresident hunter spent 9 days total in Wyoming, only hunted 5.1 of those days, but spent nearly three times more in-state.

With only 37 percent of hunters being nonresidents and accounting for only 39 percent of all big game hunting retail sales (many will buy gear and equipment in their home state prior to arriving in Wyoming), they still generate 41 percent of the total activity, 51 percent of the jobs and 52 percent of tax receipts generated by big game hunting.

Nonresidents accounted for 63 percent of all travel dollars spent by the state’s big game hunters. These are dollars spent on lodging, food (both restaurants and grocery stores), gas stations, guides and outfitters and other companies supporting hunters’ travel needs.

Including equipment, nonresidents spend 39 percent of all dollars associated with big game hunting in Wyoming, and 85 percent of all big game guide and outfitter fees.

FINAL TAKE
Big game hunting in Wyoming is more than a hobby or casual pastime. It is big business that results in the expenditure of $224 million annually. The revenues generated transcend hunt-centric business and benefit all state residents through funds spent on lodging, food, gas, other travel-related expenses, retail goods and services, land access and state and local taxes. Decisions that affect the allocation of future permits and licenses must carefully consider how big game hunting’s far-reaching economic benefits are created to ensure optimal economic benefit for all Wyoming residents.

For a state like Wyoming, rural in nature and short on big industry, hunting is big industry and the numbers above testify to this fact. It is critical to all residents for hunting to generate as much money as possible for the state. This is an important distinction to make to stakeholders involved in or benefitting from Wyoming’s hunting future.
 

Deercy

Member
Messages
35

Here's a pretty interesting article with specific examples about hunter revenue impacts to local economies in Colorado. Wyo res are fooling themselves if they think local economies don't prosper from hunters...and in particular nonres hunters!​

Big-game hunting is big money for Colorado​

Stephen Meyers
stephenmeyers@coloradoan.com

Colorado's nearly $1 billion hunting industry opened its first rifle season Saturday, the prime time for elk hunting as hunters — many traveling from out of state — don their camouflage and orange and go deep into the woods and their pockets to stalk big game.

Hunting generates $38.1 million annually in total economic output in Larimer County, the fifth-highest total by county in the state, according to a recent study of the economic impact of Colorado outdoor recreation.

Combined with fishing, Colorado hunting recreation is a $2.8 billion economic driver, according to the report by Southwick Associates, commissioned by Colorado Parks and Wildlife and published in February. Hunting and fishing is the second-largest tourism industry in Colorado, trailing only skiing.

"This time of year, you go into a restaurant or cafe in these small mountain towns and 80 percent of the customers are wearing camouflage or blaze orange hats, depending on the season," said Josh Soholt, owner of Gannett Ridge Hunting Equipment, which later this month will move from its North College Avenue location to 3006 N. Mulberry St.. "Hunting is a huge economic boost."

Colorado Parks and Wildlife collected $38 million in elk and deer licenses from nonresidents in 2012-2013, compared with $7.6 million from in-state hunters.

Bruce Ayers of Eaton-based Ponderosa Outfitters said about 95 percent of his elk hunting clientele are nonresidents. That number is about 80 percent for Wes Atkinson, owner of Atkinson Expeditions in Fort Collins.

"I've got groups from the East Coast, the South, a lot from Texas," said Atkinson, whose team of seven guides leads about 200 trips a year.

Hunting's trickle-down effect

Before heading to the mountains or plains for a multiday hunting trip, many local and out-of-state hunters gear up in Larimer County, a major hub for hunting-related gear retail.
According to the study, Larimer County generated $4.1 million in retail trade sales of hunting-related gear.

Hunting also creates 574 jobs in Larimer County, second to El Paso and Arapahoe counties.

For smaller Larimer County communities like Red Feather Lakes, or Walden in Jackson County 100 miles west of Fort Collins, the fall big-game hunting season is the lifeblood of the local economy.

"Hunting affects a lot of businesses, bars, restaurants, hotels, gas stations. Everybody gets a boost from the hunters," said James Carothers, owner of the Moose Creek Cafe in Walden. "It's our lifesaver."

Pat Martinez, a retired Colorado Parks and Wildlife (formerly Division of Wildlife) biologist, said the economic impacts of hunting extend past the hunter and their ammunition.
Martinez is co-chair of the newly formed organization Hunting Works for Colorado, which has created partnerships with sporting organizations and small businesses in rural Colorado towns that serve as the gateway to prime hunting grounds.


I live just outside Red Feather Lakes. Do almost all of my work there. I can't think of one person who will go hungry if hunters stop spending hunting related dollars. I wish we were that important.
 

Booner

Member
Messages
97
Really cause all I see is 4 pages of grown men whining about wyoming owing them a sheep tag cause they bought PREFERENCE points.
Some people see things that aren’t there I guess, I don’t know what to tell you. If I live to be 120 and never draw a sheep tag I have instructions for my kin to put in my obituary that “he appreciated the opportunity to potentially draw a WY sheep tag and had no expectation of ever drawing one.”
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,512
Some people see things that aren’t there I guess, I don’t know what to tell you. If I live to be 120 and never draw a sheep tag I have instructions for my kin to put in my obituary that “he appreciated the opportunity to potentially draw a WY sheep tag and had no expectation of ever drawing one.”

Colorado is great; just ask jims, apply there for sheep.
 

fullcry

Active Member
Messages
682
Big picture for all you.
There are so many people moving into Wyoming
It’s crazy ,models and projections are showing Wyoming is going to double in population within the next 20 years.
Non resident s ain’t gonna matter when you add hundreds of thousands of new RESIDENT hunters.Those of you with kids better be building points cause your kids won’t get to hunt much
When they are old enough.
Everyone is gonna lose.Not just the non residents.
They will just happen to be first!
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
Big picture for all you.
There are so many people moving into Wyoming
It’s crazy ,models and projections are showing Wyoming is going to double in population within the next 20 years.
Non resident s ain’t gonna matter when you add hundreds of thousands of new RESIDENT hunters.Those of you with kids better be building points cause your kids won’t get to hunt much
When they are old enough.
Everyone is gonna lose.Not just the non residents.
They will just happen to be first!
Oh BS....what projections?

Look at the numbers from last year...it's far from "crazy" growth.

The clown car rambles down the road.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,400
Big picture for all you.
There are so many people moving into Wyoming
It’s crazy ,models and projections are showing Wyoming is going to double in population within the next 20 years.
Non resident s ain’t gonna matter when you add hundreds of thousands of new RESIDENT hunters.Those of you with kids better be building points cause your kids won’t get to hunt much
When they are old enough.
Everyone is gonna lose.Not just the non residents.
They will just happen to be first!
Wow how interesting, considering Wyoming had the seventh slowest growth rate in the country in the last decade and the increase was under 15,000 people. No one talks about the number of people that leave the Cowboy State every year.
 
Last edited:

DonVathome

Very Active Member
Messages
1,564
My post from bowsite:

So I did some math for fun. Squaring points REALLY helps guys with lots of points (vs. regular bonus points). Using NR 2021 stats for sheep unit 5, and applying the 90/10 split, ASSUMING HALF NR APPS quit, and assuming no new apps I calculated my odds - with my current 22 points squared to be about 1%. This assumed 3 NR tags.

This is really bad. With the 90/10 split I still have no chance at drawing - basically WY will suck another $164 per year out of me, for 6 years until they institute bonus points. At that point the odds will be worse then I calculated now. Roughly 100 "new" people apply for unit 5 sheep have zero points each year. 600 new apps (6 years), less then half the tags, other guys ahead of me with more points. 30 points is 900 chances. 20 is 400. That is a significant difference.

This is really depressing. I need a beer.

jimss WY will not loose money they are VERY shrewd about sucking in, and keeping, the NR. See my earlier post about 2 questionaries they sent me - clearly to see how they can get the most money out of me for the least number of tags. Hence bonus points. When they went form a $7 to $100 sheep point fee 1/2 the apps dropped. This means they made 7x as much money for 1/2 the work. Then they went to $150 a point, very few dropped.

The 90/10 split combined with bonus points will destroy NR chances at hunting the big 5 in WY. I apply aggressively - 17 states (for about 47 tags) each year but I have been working hard to drop states each year. AK gone, NV gone, Vermont gone, trying hard to finish Utah and WY sheep/moose asap. Considering dropping MT & CO sheep & mnt goat. I never thought I would say that.

I am VERY lucky to have started this game 23 years ago. I have drawn and some incredible hunts. I truly feel sorry for everyone new to this game.

I can afford to pay but even I am getting frustrated with the system that I used to love.
 

jims

Very Active Member
Messages
2,733
Wyo res are bragging about low population growth rates? The low population growth in Wyo wouldn’t have anything to do with the poor economy? Everyone knows the Wyo wind blows and winters suck but Wyo lives and dies by boom and bust cycles! Population growth is usually a sign of a healthy economy.

The last thing Wyo needs is to piss off nonres by cutting their tags in 1/2 with 90/10. Nonres are the WG&F and small town community bread and butter!
 

highfastflyer

Very Active Member
Messages
1,372
Wyo res are bragging about low population growth rates? The low population growth in Wyo wouldn’t have anything to do with the poor economy? Everyone knows the Wyo wind blows and winters suck but Wyo lives and dies by boom and bust cycles! Population growth is usually a sign of a healthy economy.

The last thing Wyo needs is to piss off nonres by cutting their tags in 1/2 with 90/10. Nonres are the WG&F and small town community bread and butter!
We need more revenue from Non Res. and that is why the Wyoming Outfitters Association might just side with the resident hunters and propose a much higher percentage of the Non Res. licenses go to fully guided hunters who spend far more than Utah and Colorado DIY hunters who rarely spend a dime on our local economy by filling up in Colorado, buying all their food at Costco in Denver and camping on NF lands but fully outfitted hunters spend 6X what a DIY hunter spends. Perhaps half the 10% allocation should go only to fully guided hunters in Wyoming for NR similar to what New Mexico has, then we could certainly maximize that NR Revenue……..
 

LIK2HNT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,228
My post from bowsite:

So I did some math for fun. Squaring points REALLY helps guys with lots of points (vs. regular bonus points). Using NR 2021 stats for sheep unit 5, and applying the 90/10 split, ASSUMING HALF NR APPS quit, and assuming no new apps I calculated my odds - with my current 22 points squared to be about 1%. This assumed 3 NR tags.

This is really bad. With the 90/10 split I still have no chance at drawing - basically WY will suck another $164 per year out of me, for 6 years until they institute bonus points. At that point the odds will be worse then I calculated now. Roughly 100 "new" people apply for unit 5 sheep have zero points each year. 600 new apps (6 years), less then half the tags, other guys ahead of me with more points. 30 points is 900 chances. 20 is 400. That is a significant difference.

This is really depressing. I need a beer.

jimss WY will not loose money they are VERY shrewd about sucking in, and keeping, the NR. See my earlier post about 2 questionaries they sent me - clearly to see how they can get the most money out of me for the least number of tags. Hence bonus points. When they went form a $7 to $100 sheep point fee 1/2 the apps dropped. This means they made 7x as much money for 1/2 the work. Then they went to $150 a point, very few dropped.

The 90/10 split combined with bonus points will destroy NR chances at hunting the big 5 in WY. I apply aggressively - 17 states (for about 47 tags) each year but I have been working hard to drop states each year. AK gone, NV gone, Vermont gone, trying hard to finish Utah and WY sheep/moose asap. Considering dropping MT & CO sheep & mnt goat. I never thought I would say that.

I am VERY lucky to have started this game 23 years ago. I have drawn and some incredible hunts. I truly feel sorry for everyone new to this game.

I can afford to pay but even I am getting frustrated with the system that I used to love.

If only we had started buying points a few years earlier!!! 😎😎
 

LIK2HNT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,228
We need more revenue from Non Res. and that is why the Wyoming Outfitters Association might just side with the resident hunters and propose a much higher percentage of the Non Res. licenses go to fully guided hunters who spend far more than Utah and Colorado DIY hunters who rarely spend a dime on our local economy by filling up in Colorado, buying all their food at Costco in Denver and camping on NF lands but fully outfitted hunters spend 6X what a DIY hunter spends. Perhaps half the 10% allocation should go only to fully guided hunters in Wyoming for NR similar to what New Mexico has, then we could certainly maximize that NR Revenue……..

Sounds like more guide welfare!!!
 

wytex

Active Member
Messages
814
jims point out 1 small town that relies on NR hunters to survive.

Maybe we'll just piss you off and no more PP sharing with unsuspecting NR.
 

SS!

Long Time Member
Messages
4,074
All you guys complaining I'm here to tell you if it was easy to get tags it wouldn't be as much fun. I just picked up my last two rams from the taxidermist and I'm beginning to think I've killed too many. Time for something new. Sheep hunting *yawn*

IMG_3760.jpg


:cool:
 

nfh

Long Time Member
Messages
6,506
All you guys complaining I'm here to tell you if it was easy to get tags it wouldn't be as much fun. I just picked up my last two rams from the taxidermist and I'm beginning to think I've killed too many. Time for something new. Sheep hunting *yawn*

View attachment 64943

:cool:

Throw that 3 pole GE breaker away and go with square D...

Secondaly those tan wirenuts work good with a 5/16" nut driver.

That's what I picked up in your 2 pictures
 

DonVathome

Very Active Member
Messages
1,564
If you have 22 points you passed “close to good” sheep tags a while back. You could draw a pile of damn good ones.
In 2021 There was exactly 1 unit in the state I was sure to draw. 1 Unit I would have 50/50 odds. All the rest are under 50%. I watch this very closely every year. I have literally only passed sheep unit I could draw. I am a NR, not sure if that mixed you guys up.
 

jims

Very Active Member
Messages
2,733
Wyo res may want to be extremely careful with what they ask for in regard to switching over to bonus pts for sheep and moose. Wyo res may get a taste of their own medicine!

There are a lot of res that have complied a lot of sheep and moose pts over the years. Changing things up “mid-stream” doesn’t only affect nonres it will instantly and dramatically decrease Wyo res with highest pref pts chance of drawing. In fact, Wyo res that have a pile of sheep and moose pts may suddenly never have the chance of ever drawing the super high demand tag units if switched to bonus pts because draw odds are so horrible in a random bonus pt draw. Right now these same res with high pts have a darn good chance to draw.

If I was a Wyo res with high pts I would be screaming if things were switched up “mid-stream”! It’s wild how res will get a taste of what it feels like to be a nonres with high pts that is getting totally shafted by 90/10!
 

jims

Very Active Member
Messages
2,733
Just offering advice and recommendations on what going to a bonus pt system would do to Wyo res (plus nonres) that have a pile of sheep and goat pref pts.

Hopefully decisions made aren’t at the expense of nonres hunters that are the bread and butter for the WG&F….and Wyo small business owners! I think the WG&F would agree that nonres views are fairly important since 70% of their license revenue comes from nonres?

My hope is that many of the small business owners across Wyo wake up to the financial revenue loss they will have with 90/10 in already tough financial times!

The same thing is true here in Colo where small business owners retaliate every time nonres quota reductions are brought up. That’s the main reason that nonres limited tag quotas in Colo are the highest in the entire Western US!
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,163
Just offering advice and recommendations on what going to a bonus pt system would do to Wyo res (plus nonres) that have a pile of sheep and goat pref pts.

Hopefully decisions made aren’t at the expense of nonres hunters that are the bread and butter for the WG&F….and Wyo small business owners! I think the WG&F would agree that nonres views are fairly important since 70% of their license revenue comes from nonres?

My hope is that many of the small business owners across Wyo wake up to the financial revenue loss they will have with 90/10 in already tough financial times!

The same thing is true here in Colo where small business owners retaliate every time nonres quota reductions are brought up. That’s the main reason that nonres limited tag quotas in Colo are the highest in the entire Western US!
Nobody has goat points...

The only "point" to most of your posts is the one atop your noggin'.

If Colorado businesses are the reason quota's aren't changing then as Colorado Resident hunter, I'd be in somebody's face about that. Its not up to a small minority of business owners, that contribute not a single, thin dime to the GF/DOW/Wildlife management to decide for the Colorado Resident how to manage the tag allocations.

If you think that's appropriate or proper in any way shape or form then you need to really rethink your situation.
 

jims

Very Active Member
Messages
2,733
It’s sad you care less about business welfare in small town communities. The next time you need gas at one of their stations maybe you’ll be thankful they are there and don’t lock you out!

Moose not goat my mistake.
 

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