Absolute Truth

C

caelkhnter

Very Active Member
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The late Dr. Adrian Rogers (1931-2005) offered the following observation several years ago and it bears poignant significance today:
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the rich out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply the wealth by dividing it."
 
LOL, you mean redistribution won't work, crap I was counting on retiring soon......
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-09 AT 09:42AM (MST)[p]Sure you can, you don't take anything from anyone you just borrow it from China.

How do you think we ran two wars and got to lower our taxes at the same time?
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Huntindude,

Better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool!
Then to open it up and remove all doubt!
 
HD you really are something. Okay, yes the Congress, with the approval of whoever was President, spent more than has been taken in for the past several decades. But to suggest that the debt is because we did not tax anyone is total bs. I happen to be one of the 5% of the entitled whose tax share will increase about 5% in Obama's plan, who never gets a "rebate", whose deductions are already substantially limited and with the cuurent effort by the controlling Dems. in Congress may lose the few remaining deductions I had. So I, along with many others real taxpayers, have been paying more than my far share, for decades. As I have said time and again, our debt problem is not an income problem, it is a spending problem.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

>
> Huntindude,
>
> Better to keep your
>mouth shut and thought a
>fool!
> Then to open it
>up and remove all doubt!
>


As usual Hdude points out the truth and some can't handle it.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Californiahntr, I'm in that pool myself, well maybe not this year but most years. do you think I like taxes? no, but I pay my bills, and the debt Bush doubled while lowering taxes leaves me and every other American as of today owing $35,831. so am I to take it you don't pay your bills? or do you just prefer our kids pay them? see I don't have kids so once again I'm better off with your attitude, but it just doesn't seem right.

Now I know we're going to hear all the " but Obama is going to run the debt up " crap, that's true he is and it's probably a bad idea. but is it more understandable now that we're in a depression than it was when we were living large?

If we had all the money Bush added to the debt to spend today we could spend like conservatives or a pimp with a week to live and still be where we are today with our debt.

It's not a matter of wanting taxes it's a matter of being responsible, we haven't been responsible. if you spend the money you must collect it somewhere.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Had the Bush administration not given all those tax cuts, and tempered their ownership society beliefs, had not let health care costs get so far out of hand, had started reforming the justice system, and taken the best advice on the war, I bet the republicans would be in power, popular, and we wouldn't be in a huge recession, It should be a lesson of what happens when fundamentalist beliefs override good sense, decency, and intellegent thinking, yea weve got spending problems and its the big stuff thats killing us, but I don't hear a word from the right on what to do about it, they remind me of bar flies, well meaning drunks,but its all B.S.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Here's an idea for you, how bout quit quadrupling down on the debt and deficit and spending taxpayer dollars that all our great grandkids will have trouble paying back, how bout when they put forth a stimulus plan, they put one together that actually creates jobs and stimulates the economy - not a back-loaded bill where 80% of the spending in it doesn't take place for a year or more. How bout cutting out all the liberal special interest paybacks included in the bill - Is O'Bama funding his next campaign or trying to stimulate the economy??
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Okay Pipe and Dude, lets start with the flaw in your understanding of the economic consequences of tax cuts vs increases in tax rates. In the 70's a famous economist named Arthur Laffer developed a theory, that tax revenues would actually increase by the increase in long term economic growth and thus the more jobs, more production, more Gross National Product, through a reduction in taxes. He illustrated this with what become known as the Laffer curve.

His form of supply side economics was implemented by Ronald Reagan, and in fact tax revenues actually rose significantly every year of the Reagan administration. Unfortunaltey a budget deficit remained because the govenment spending increased at a greater amount than the increase in revenues generated by the tax cuts initiated by the Reagan administration.

So back to the point I have consistently asserted, our budget problems are not a matter of too little revenue, but result from too much spending! A reduction in taxes did not cause the budget deficits we currently have, and an increase in taxes will not fix the problem. In fact with the negative impact on overall economic growth caused by the proposed tax increases, the tax increases will most likely lead to a lower tax revenue, which will only be compounded by the increased spending to fund programs like universal health care, etc.

Now as to Dude's inquiry as to whether I am a parent and don't I care about the debt "we" are creating for them and our grandchildren, well yes I am a parent. I suppose what I am most concerned about, from an economic point of view is the loss of the opportunity I was provided as a young person. I am the first in my family to ever go to college and lead a professional career. Through hard work, for a period of decades, I have achieved what many would consider a certain level of financial success. It was not given to me, I gave blood sweat and tears and earned it.

Under the socialist proposals of the Obama administration, I am concerned that my childred, and grand children will never have this opportunity because there will be no economic encentive to work hard. The reduced, or overly taxed financial rewards will not be worth the effort. So that is what I see in my children and grandchildrens future under the socialist agenda of the Obama and Democratic lead Congress adminstration.

As far as Dude's approach that we have to tax because the Congress will spend, well that is a defeatist approach. Raising my children we applied strict disicpline for certian things, even though other parents told us everyone else was doing it. Example, no alcohol until they were of drinking age. So when they had Prom after parties, no alcohol, even though everyone elses parties had alcohol. We did not care that everyone elase might be doing it. We did not give in to such ridiculous arguments. Well the same is true with what I believe as to our current economic crisis. We need to get Congress and whatever Administration to stop the excess spending. The bailouts are not the answer. Let the chips fall where they may and the econmy will rebound and be the better for it.

Bottom line, quit the excess spending and do not increase the burden on the hard working and productive taxpayers with the intent to continue such spending activites.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

OK in an idealistic world you make sense, in reality there are flaws in your theories, like congress won't over spend for one. the government has no choice but to spend right now, just extending unemployment and keeping people alive will take billions or trillions, when and if we recover I fully expect the liberals to spend liberally.

The conservatives spent like a pimp with a week to live and put elective wars on credit while almost everyone cheered, do you really expect if we have another conservative controlled govt they'll change anything? I don't so to say the awswer is less spending is a dream.

So if we aren't going to stop overspending we need to collect more revenue, getting the bill and actually forking out the cash is the best way to stop spending I know.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

You have proved my point in numerous respects. First youhave given up, I never will, our mantra should be stop excessive spending. You are as much of the problem as the liberal spenders. You enable them to continue because you say, hey nothing we can do about it, they will spend so don't try to get them to stop, just try to figure out a way to get more $ for them to spend.

Second, your partisinship is part of your problem. It is not a democrat or republican problem, it is a politian problem. They have all spent too much for too long. Why you insist on blaming Republicans and give the Democrats a free pass is ridiculous, both parties' representative have engaged in this practice. We all need to unite to make the message clear. You have said no one is making a proposal in resposne to the massive, and under Pelosi, never ending bailouts. Well I and others have, no bailouts! Let the chips fall where they may. The repair work needed to fix things after the collaspes will make our contry stronger, more competitive, and more focussed in the long term.

Fianlly your statement that:"we need to collect more revenue, getting the bill and actually forking out the cash is the best way to stop spending I know." is difficult to understand. Basically you say tax more, which as I have stated will not lead to an increase in revenue, so that they can spend more, and "that is the best way to stop spending"? Exactly the type of thinking that has gotten us into this mess.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

caelkhnter- thats an awful lot of hot air, your Laffer curve is a joke, because if it were true, and we followed it to the conclusion there would be no taxes and tons of revenue. You still haven't said one word about what could be done to control spending, hot air more hot air, if we paid for our government services and didn't borrow and use the Laffer curve excuse, why there would be lots of pressure to control spending, straight from the bottom up. Going into another great depression is not going to fix things, sound nice though,"let the chips fall where they may, who cares". Health care is eating this countrys finances up, no country spends and wastes as much money on that as us, not even close, the countrys with universal care do it so much cheaper, its not even a contest. I, like a lot of people haven't given up, but we are fighting a war with those that spew hot air, and hot air doesn't get things fixed, Idealism is great, but its reality that counts.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

According to Sen. John Kyl- since he's been in office O'Bama has spent a Billion dollars and hour - and if you added up all the presidential budgets from Washington thru Bush II, you still wouldn't equal O'Bummers budget. Pretty breathtaking if you ask me. How bout a dose of reality for you Piper - we don't have the money to pay for all this crap, we are not going to have the money to pay for all this crap in the future and neither are your kids or grandkids. His policy and spending is going to kill this economy and the GDP in the long run and transfer our economy from a largely private sector economy to a government run economy. I highly doubt the losers that voted for this guy thought that was the change and hope they were looking for. His presidential efforts will dwarf the fabulous economy as run by your hero Jimma Carter.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Kyl, is full of hot air too, why did him and his buddies let things get in such a awful mess? its easy to drum up half baked twisted statistics. its interesting that the party that didn't care about deb't, now cares so much, what a bunch of phoneys.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Pipe, I never suggested that there be no taxes. All I am saying, and which has been proven time and time again, is that excessive taxation impairs overall economic growth which leads to a decrease in revenues generated from taxes. We are at that point, and as will be proven once again as Obama and his cohorts in Congress continue to spend and tax the productive and hard working people, is our ecomony will suffer greatly, lead to problems much greater, longer lasting, and more devasting than if had no bailouts were given and we just let the collapse happen. Our nation would become much stronger in the long run from an economic point of view if we allowed this to happen rather than the unchecked spending engaged in by "our current leaders". But I understand, you are too tied to your party and their agenda to give real consideration to the matter. The Laffer curve is not a joke, it has been proven time and time again. But who cares about facts right?
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-09 AT 11:43AM (MST)[p]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snAAzfO811A

Max Keiser is funny and kind of frightening but I enjoy watching his Tweetcasts and his show the Oracle on BBC.

Interesting that it appears that TARP money is being used finance M&A's that results in fewer people working. "Get the banks lending again" is the motto of Geithner and Bernanke. I guess you can have a credit market but still be stimulated right out of a job. I how this stimulus doesn't ruin too much money.

Nemont
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Why before the ink is even dry on the stimulus bill are they talking about a second stimulus bill?? I think a whole lot of voters got duped with this manchurian guy.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

exessive taxation is unproductive, thats different than a blanket statement say the more you cut taxes the more revenue the government recieves, the right wingers take a curve and make it a straight line,GWB should have never pushed through the top end tax cuts, and then went on a spending spree. and you still have not said anything about controlling spending, I mean the real cuts, the kind that matter, military, medicare, prisons and drug wars, those are some of the budget killers that are hard to deal with, the ones that are dragging our country down, those are the issues our competition spends far less money on.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Okay Pipe here it is, no bailouts period! The result will be immediate and widespread. It will impact not only the private sector but governmental sector as well. If "we the people" could stand united on this position, while making it clear we are united on a serious and significant cut in spending all acroos the board, I believe the politicians would have no chice but to do so. They simply, in the short term anyway will not have the money to spend. However if we don't stand together, and your party convinces its people to simply accept the notion that all this spending is necessary, you are enabling the politicians to contiue with the same business as usual program.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

If nobody has an income we aren't going to collect any taxes, has that crossed some of your minds? Obama's attempt to stimulate the economy isn't what I'd prefer to see but this idea he can sit back and hope for the best isn't what he was elected to do.

All experts agree we're in the worst economic crisis since the great depression, I don't think you can compare anything any of us here today have seen to what we're up against now. we have lots of experts here it seems, I'll admit I have no answers, why don't one of you come up with the answer and win that money Geithner put up as a reward?

It's easy to knock a new president who stepped into office with a depression on his plate, what would McBush have done?
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Piper,

Name a single spending cut that either the Obama administration or the Democratic congress has demanded.

Do you remember back in 2003 when GWB wanted to have cuts to the medicare budget by bringing in quality standards and outcome based payments? Everyone lost their collective minds? A senator from my home state of Montana was on TV telling me that GWB hated old people and wanted force them out on to the streets.

Look at just what the interest is going to be on the trillions more Obama is borrowing or pledging to the banks. There is not a single politician who is going to take anything from the American people that is views as a benefit.

Obama's actions, tax plans and budgets are a war upon anyone who has saved money and is successful. It is as simple as that. During the greatest capital crisis of our lifetime he wants to increase capital gains. He has declared that class warfare is a good thing and that anyone making over $250,000 a year is going to have to have more of his/her labors confiscated because they dared to be successful.

HD,
At this point is doesn't matter what McCain would have done, he lost and as Obama pointed out, "I won". Want to know why this stimulus is a joke because money is being used to either consolidate companies to reduce jobs or is helping companies move more jobs offshore. It is not a policy to just as you say, "throw money at the wall and hope some sticks". He was in such a hurry to do something that his program is resulting in fewer jobs then had he done nothing.

I don't blame his for the economy he inherited but his moves so far have been wrong. Even the Europeans are saying that you must let people fail and maintain some kind of a free market. They are not throwing money at the problem. The Eurozone is not just going to borrow money willy nilly and throw it into the economy in hopes of doing something. That is the frickin Europeans of all people.

Nemont
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

I don't think anyone really knows what would happen if the banks were not to be bailed out. all this spending is scary, and I wish the dems would control themselves. I know good luck with that. As far as a war on the successful, and class warfare goes, I think thats a little overblown, for the 8 years prior it was nothing but a war on the working class, with borrowing by the government and consumers being used to cover it up, and keep the voters happy. now the upper income taxes go up less than 5% and its a massive war on the successful? I don't buy into that. Most people would be happy with a stable economy, a measure of security, and a decent opportunity to make the most of their lives, if someone is obsessed with becoming wealthy, and many are, thats great, but I say do that by contributing to others and the country as a whole. Either by crook or by hook it seems a lot of times fortunes are made by taking away from others, and I think thats where the class warfare feelings develop.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-09 AT 05:23PM (MST)[p]Piper,
don't believe the rhetoric that it is only a 5% tax increase on the rich. It is far more then that, first they are going to increase the marginal rate from 35% to 39.5%, then they do away with not only charitable deductions but other deductions as well. The top real tax rate is then 42%. That isn't enough for them, now the Democrats are going to "pay" for their health care reform by taxing benefits but "only" on people making more then $250,000. Well I got news for you, there aren't enough people making that kind of money to tax that amount to get the revenues needed to pay for this spending.

$250,000 incomes is not rich, it may appear rich to people making $50,000 but it is not wealthy by any stretch.

I don't buy your idea that people are satisfied with just being average Joes, look around you and figure out that consumerism is the cornerstone of the American middle class. They measure their worth by how much they consume and spend alot of time figuring out how to consume more.

So class warfare is perfectly acceptable to you as long as the class the government chooses to go to war with is the rich?

So if fortunes are made by taking from others why should anyone ever risk capital to start a business in America? I know that my life probably would be easier if I came to work and told everyone in the office that I am laying everybody off, taking my money and going to Grand Cayman to drink red stripe's by the bucketful on the beach.

Do you agree with this statement: If you tax something you get less of it? Whether it is cigarette smoking or making money whenever the government taxes such things there is less of that behavior, correct or not? If you only single out the rich and expect nobody else to feel the tax burden I guarantee that the rich will figure out how to avoid those taxes or they will reduce their output or both. Obama will find out, just like Clinton, did that there is not enough tax revenue to be had by just sticking it to the rich. The middle class is going to take in the shorts because of Obama's hidden middle class tax hike, high inflation that will wipe out any wealth that the stock market didn't take care of.

Borrowing and spending is bad whether it is a democrat or republican doing it. Bad money policies are bad regardless of party affliation. When the Obama economic bomb cycles through the economy and it "appears" that things are getting better watch what comes next. People around the world will dump their dollars, prices will skyrocket and the government will have to confiscate not only the rich people's money but your as well.

MoneySupply-723104.png


Nemont
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-09 AT 05:17PM (MST)[p]Obama's Wealth Destruction
Mises Daily by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. | Posted on 2/9/2009

President Obama is under the impression that history owes him $1 trillion right now to spend on whatever he wants. His language is strident and full of irritation that anyone would question his right to live out his personal dream of being Franklin Roosevelt to George Bush's Hoover. This, he says, is what the election was all about.

The arrogance reminds me of George Bush after 9-11, who similarly believed that history owed him a gargantuan war in the tradition of FDR. And look how that arrogance led to disgrace and loss, as he unwittingly presided over the destruction of American prosperity while searching for bugbears abroad.

It just goes to show you that the presidency is something like a drug. It makes people lose all connection to reality. Part of the reality that Obama needs to recognize is that the New Deal was a calamity far worse than the initial market downturn that began it. He needs to stop basing his policies on dumbed-down civics texts versions of events and consider the economic logic.

With his rhetoric and policies, he has decided to demonize private enterprise, just as FDR did, as a way to present government as the great savior. Now, think about this. If there is a way out of the recession, it will have to be provided by private enterprise. It will come by new businesses, business expansions, entrepreneurship, new technology, and this will be the source of lasting jobs and prosperity.

You cannot make a country rich by looting taxpayers and paying people to pound nails into siding at public schools! These activities amount to capital consumption. They are not sources of investment. You can say that they are stupid tasks or wonderful tasks, but it is not a matter of ideology as to whether such public projects will make us all wealthier. They will not. They drain the sources of wealth from society. They represent a cost, not a blessing.

That was also true of Bush's dumb stimulus program. He was only bailing out his friends at our expense. The effect was to give a little longer life to institutions that were failing anyway. It's pathetic that the Republicans ever went along with it. You will notice that the scheme didn't actually work.

Well, Obama is doing the same thing, though rewarding a different set of friends. This is not wealth production. This is wealth consumption. Do enough of this nonsense and you can destroy the livelihoods of an entire generation.

Americans are proud of their system of government, but consider what it has given us this time around. We had an outgoing president who thought it was his right to grab as much as he could while leaving. Now we have a new president who thinks that the election entitled him to grab as much as he can, right from the beginning. We get looted by the state coming and going. It all amounts to one massive war on prosperity and freedom.

Particularly culpable here are the official historians who have for generations heralded FDR as the great savior. It is a case study in how a civic lie can appear and fester for decades. The fact is that the New Deal did not work. It prolonged what might have been a troubling two-year downturn into a horrifying blow to world prosperity that ended up in a war that killed countless millions. It was one of the greatest acts of wreckage in world history.

And Obama is inspired by this? He wants to repeat it?

I'm not so cynical about human affairs that I believe that errors must be endlessly repeated. Obama can put a stop to his madness. He needs to know ? someone must tell him frankly and openly ? that his current path is going to lead not to recovery, but to an extension of suffering, and untold amounts of it.

The biggest threat facing the American economy right now is rarely even discussed. It is the massive buildup of paper bank reserves in the last quarter of 2008. This was Bush's doing. He ordered the Fed to print like mad. Fortunately for us, the banks are still holding on to these reserves. When they start lending again, the result could be hyperinflation of Confederate-dollar proportions.

Hence the priority of the Obama administration should be to first do no evil, and second to find some means for withdrawing those reserves from the banking system before they wash through the economic structure and destroy the dollar. There is still time. He must act. Yes, that will lead to bank failures. That's good! It will lead to business failures. That's good and essential too.


There simply is no choice. If he acts now, he could find that recovery will come before his second term. This is precisely what happened with Reagan. He was fortunate to have advisers who insisted that he let the liquidation happen rather than attempt to fix the recession of 1981?82 with huge new government spending programs.

In any case, the hardest work to do here is intellectual. Obama's head is filled with myths and lies, not only about FDR and the New Deal but also about the government's power to repair the existing economic problems. With this model in his head, he can only do evil. This must change.

Nothing is inevitable. He can turn on a dime. The main message: do not repeat the actions of FDR, lest you destroy what is left of American liberty and prosperity.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

NeMont,
Good article by Rockwell but unfortunately I believe and I'm afraid Mr. O'bamas first 51 days is going much better than he had planned. He's put his John Hancok unfortunately on an unfathomable chunk of change that will cost us all dearly. Be interesting to track his popularity polls with the amount he spends, I would bet that they go in opposite directions, once people come to grips with the damage he's doing.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

The damage was done before Obama was elected, once again I'll ask how should he fix it? I hear lots of whining and few answers.

Nemont the reason I ask how would McCain have fixed it is to see if there was another direction to go. if McCain would have done the same thing, which his support of Bush starting the bailout bandwagon in motion would suggest then is Obama really the problem or just the fall guy? you presume doing nothing would have been better than the debt is going to be, many including McCain disagree.

The point is the options were very limited, since all the republicans have been able to muster as a plan is opposing Obama I think we were screwed either way. Obama just happens to be the nit wit who fought for the chance to take the fall, enjoy putting this on him but it would have been the same deal for McCain.

Another thing to remember is while I hate to see all the debt it isn't like our roads, bridges and most of the rest of the things the stimulus money is going for don't need attention. we have borrowed a ton of money to fix schools, roads and everything else in Iraq and that's just peachie. whats so bad about spending a few bucks on America? there's nothing socialist about fixing the bridge next to the one that fell down in MN killing 13 people.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

You fix it by letting companies fail that have over borrowed. That is why they have bank bankruptcy laws. You lower capital gains taxes, you lower taxes. You damn sure don't raise them. You cut out all the gov't b.s. regs so more industry's can operate here competitively.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

the Gov. of Michigan was just saying that more cars are now being built in Ontario Canada, than are being built in Detroit, she says its not because of lower taxes or less regulation, its because of more affordable and better healthcare, imagine that, she was on Morning Joes, check it out, Its interesting that under GWB we lowered taxes, cut capitol gains, and cut regulations, yet look at the mess we are in, so it must be more complicated than that, don't you think?
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

HD,
If our infrastructure is so important then why is only 3.75% of the money in the stimulus bill going to such projects?

I am not holding Obama responsible for the mess he inherited. I am holding him responsible for his actions.

McCain would have never had a rubber stamp in Congress. If McCain were the president you can bet that the stimulus bill would have moved through congress much slower and the bill would have been much different. We can play what if all day but as my dad used to tell me: Wish in one hand and $h!it in the other and see which fills up first.

The Republicans don't have to come up with a plan because they have no power, other then the ability to hold things up in the senate for a little while.

The democrats all blame Bush for 9/11, I can pull the quotes. They said he did nothing to prevent 9/11 and that Clinton did everything right. That is the ground rules set up by the Democrats no me: The democrats believe that a President is responsible for everything from the day he is sworn in, at least that is the standard they held Bush to. Why is not okay to hold Obama to the same standard?

Letting people fail is a policy and it served this country well for over 200 years, government internvention always has unintened consquences. Now the banks are filled with TARP funds which is being loaned to Big Pharmacy companies so that they can buy up their competition. Schering-Plough being bought by Merck using TARP funds and they plan on eliminating 17,000 jobs.

Nemont
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-09 AT 11:31AM (MST)[p]Piper,

What else would you expect a Democrat govenor to say? It has always been the democrats dream to take the entire health care system over since the days of FDR.

Let's see building them in Ontario is more profitable just because of health care costs? I highly, highly doubt it. If that were true then every vehicle would be made in Brazil.

Nemont

It could also be that the CAW is more accomodating, including agreeing to freeze wages and pick up more health care costs on their own. I bet the UAW would never agree to reduce their health benefits down to what the average American has. I have looked their benefits and they are the best of the best and they pay very, very little for them.


http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/600786
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

I'm not saying Obama is doing the right thing, I'm saying I don't think he had much choice. I wouldn't bet on it McCain would have done anything any different, wasn't he in such a hurry to get the first bailout approved he almost had to miss a debate?

Where did you get that number for infrastucture spending? what I'm seeing is far more than that. in any event much of the stimulus would have been spent by any president, it's just keeping the people fed and the govt doors open, just a fixed cost of running a country that we accept borrowing the money for as business as usual.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

HD,
Go read the bill there is $30 billion set aside for infrastructure.

Then read how much goes to community organizations, cell phone service providers and others.

Couple of big agents I know love the stimulus package. The both make over $500,000 a year and they got some terrible tax advice. They were able to go back two years an amend their corporate return. They both used the words HUGE when discussing the check from the IRS, then they were laughing because the stimulus bill allowed them to go back for a 3rd year and get an even bigger check back from Uncle Sam. I asked if they were going to hire a new person with this windfall or buy new stuff or what. Nope they are going to take this money and just pay down their debt. Paying debt is fine but to use funds already in the government coffers and to which they both agreed they would not have been able to get to is stupid IMHO. I really don't care if these two get more stimulus, they don't need it.

If Obama is not responsible for his programs going forward then who is? Do you believe that the Democrat controlled congress would have dealth with McCain the same way the fell all over themselves to rubber stamp Obama? Come on. We can play what if all day. Doesn't matter to me because I didn't support McCain either. A Pox on both their houses. I don't subscribe to the idea that it doesn't matter what the President does because his opponent would have done the same thing. To me that is a none starter.

I need to just quit because nobody cares whether this country is going to be spent into the poor house. Geithner is an idiot, Bernanke misread history and Obama is actually believing what the press is writing about him being the saviour.

Nemont
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Very commendable,respectable effort, NE and CEH. But, as my wfe and I have discovered, you can't reason with drug addicts, alcoholics, and liberals. They will never get it........

wyoming joe
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Nemont I've been preaching about the dire state of the national debt for years, I care, I think it's too late now.

If Obama made a hobo look like a big spender we're still screwed, just the interest alone on the $35,939 at 5% is $1800 a year, PER US CITIZEN. times this by 4 for the average family that's $143,756 per houshold, and $7200 a year in interest.

So lets say Obama is a saint and borrows no more money in a depression than Bush did in the good 'ol days, we're going to add trillions to that PLUS interst. I don't think it's realistic to expect Obama to spend less than we have in the last 8 years, it just isn't going to happen, it's not a choice Obama has even if he wanted to.

So where will we be in a few years even if we're good kids? probably a quarter mill per household in national debt. the horse has left the barn my friend, don't fret over this it's too late. don't worry be happy, for as long as you can anyway.
 
RE: Absolute Truth/Huntindude

Ross Perot may have been a little odd, but remember how he made a big deal over the deb't? he has been proven right, we are unable to control it and its now out of hand.
 
In answer to the original post.

I think that Obama knows exactly what he is doing and he wants it this way. His goal is radical social reform, he wants to "Remake America", he said that himself. A weak economy facilitates the achievement of this and provides the means for him to aggregate power by weakening the leaders of our industries and increasing government control. This tactic has been adopted by every leftist dictator past and present.

my .02
 

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