Alaska sheep closure

Gadjet

Active Member
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Sounds like they made the decision to cut off all non resident dall hunts for unit 19 for the next 5 years. I don't really agree with the way this was done. That being said, it's really a sad deal to see the sheep numbers have plummeted across the state. I wouldn't be surprised if 20 is next on the closure list.
So in my opinion, Alaskan dall hunts will shoot to 50 grand pretty darn quick. And we all know what this will do to the Canadian prices.
 
You are probably correct.The sheep can’t keep taking this much pressure.
BC is having the same problems.
With that said, it will take non residents out of the mix and no more jealousy and blame.
Hopefully they cut residents in the next 2 years.
No reason a guy needs to kill a Dall every year.
Those days are over.
 
I agree 100 percent gadjet, I know the herd isn’t doing great across the board as a whole in Alaska and so why just the closure to one unit to nr only? Doesn’t seem to make sense and seems like a bigger picture. If sheep herds are hurting that bad close down all the units that are below population average and shut it down straight across the board. I feel bad for the guys that had hunts booked for 23 and got the bad phone call.
 
Hey SS, I’m curious to hear your take on this.
I would have to defer to @Bambistew as he’s more the sheep guy than me.

But my opinion as a whole for all species is if there is to be cuts, NR first before any resident cuts. I believe everyone was shocked at what the BOG did.

@fullcry couldn’t be more wrong. His backstory is he couldn’t get it done sheep hunting up here as a resident. He had to move out of state and come back guided. So he’s a little jaded. Heavy on the little.

I have my doubts on full curl management. It’s just an opinion but if you’re just targeting the older population for 25+ years you’re going to have unforeseen consequences. Missing that knowledge base in any population can’t be good for the health of the herd.
 
Declining wildlife numbers seems almost universal and lost hunting opportunity is a major concern for everyone who loves to hunt.
Given declining habitat, predation, weather, disease, and demand for harvest it's no wonder areas need closing. In todays world we should expect it, pretty much everywhere, with every big game species.
Sheep are especially fragile so I applaud efforts to help them. I also agree that resident hunters should always be given preference over NR's, but everyone should do their part in insuring that populations can thrive
I see many, including Bambistew, forgoing hunting opportunities in order to help the population. I think that's admirable.
Hunting is a privilege and not a right for all of us.
 
Declining wildlife numbers seems almost universal and lost hunting opportunity is a major concern for everyone who loves to hunt.
Given declining habitat, predation, weather, disease, and demand for harvest it's no wonder areas need closing. In todays world we should expect it, pretty much everywhere, with every big game species.
Sheep are especially fragile so I applaud efforts to help them. I also agree that resident hunters should always be given preference over NR's, but everyone should do their part in insuring that populations can thrive
I see many, including Bambistew, forgoing hunting opportunities in order to help the population. I think that's admirable.
Hunting is a privilege and not a right for all of us.
I’m not sure restricting hunting is going to do too much. I believe it’s a feel good measure. How many of those rams shot during the fall would have made it through the winter? A rams death by a bullet or death by winter is still a death. We’re not killing ewes. And places where you can’t hunt sheep the population is way down.

I don’t know of anyone that sat out last season because the numbers are down. It’s like when you hear an outfitter cancelled all his hunts because the sheep are down. It’s BS. They only end it if regulation ends it.
 
I’m not sure restricting hunting is going to do too much. I believe it’s a feel good measure. How many of those rams shot during the fall would have made it through the winter? A rams death by a bullet or death by winter is still a death. We’re not killing ewes. And places where you can’t hunt sheep the population is way down.

I don’t know of anyone that sat out last season because the numbers are down. It’s like when you hear an outfitter cancelled all his hunts because the sheep are down. It’s BS. They only end it if regulation ends it.
So what is your solution to declining sheep numbers SS?
I listed four other reasons that I see declining sheep numbers, besides sheep harvest by hunters. I also agree an old ram's death by bullet is more humane than the other four I listed.
Also, I read a post on another forum that Bambistew was personally not hunting sheep this past fall because of his concern for the health of the sheep he hunts. Maybe he was blowing smoke, but that's what I recall he said.
The outfitter that I hunted Dalls with in the NWT would not allow hunters to take a ram that was not at least 9 and they preferred their guides to require a ram to be 10 before they were a target. It seemed to work well for them.
There are no easy answers for wildlife. They live a hard life of survival of the fittest, and sometimes we literally love them to death.
 
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So what is your solution to declining sheep numbers SS?
I listed four other reasons that I see declining sheep numbers, besides sheep harvest by hunters. I also agree an old ram's death by bullet is more humane than the other four I listed.
Also, I read a post on another forum that Bambistew was personally not hunting sheep this past fall because of his concern for the health of the sheep he hunts. Maybe he was blowing smoke, but that's what I recall he said.
The outfitter that I hunted Dalls with in the NWT would not allow hunters to take a ram that was not at least 9 and they preferred their guides to require a ram to be 10 before they were a target. It seemed to work well for them.
There are no easy answers for wildlife. They live a hard life of survival of the fittest, and sometimes we literally love them to death.
I don’t think there is a solution to declining dall sheep numbers. We have to just manage what we have. It sucks but it’s what I believe. This isn’t AZ or NV where you can put in some guzzlers and make a difference. We’re not building on their habitat up here, predators could stand to be controlled better. Disease? Not really known up here but it’s such a big state I’m sure something gets around sometimes. The winters are the biggest factors IMHO. When moose are dropping like flies you know it’s rough for the sheep.

I’ll stand by my statement that I haven’t met anyone up here that sat out sheep hunting last year due to the concern for the sheep situation. Sheep are even worse off after this winter. We will see how many people sit out for concern for sheep. I know for a fact I’ll be chasing sheep this fall. One of the many drivers is it may not be around much longer. I’m not eager to pull the trigger tho. I’m looking for a very special sheep this go around.
 
I could write a novel on this, but don't really care anymore. I'm glad its closed and its a good start. I'm ok with NR having a small piece of the pie, bit it's long past due to end the OTC no limit NR tags. NR kill 45% of the total sheep harvested every year. Thats 3-4x higher than any state. We are long past due on limits. NR can still hunt Alaska on an OTC tag, just not in 19c. More NR kill sheep in AK than all other states combined. Are you guys lobbying for your own states to hand out 45% of your sheep to NR?

Sheep numbers are down, and I doubt they will ever be what they were just 10 years ago, at least not in the next 20 years. Two recent bad winters back to back and again 9-10 years ago have absolutely crushed the recruitment of rams in 7-8 years from now. We're going to see ram harvests in the 200s as opposed to the 700s just 10 years ago. Our older class rams have all but vanished, due to no recruitment, were killing rams as they become legal, and when we hit the cohorts of 2020-2023 there will be basically zero rams to hunt. And all the old rams will be long shot. 60%of the rams shot last year where 8 or less. Its usually 35%.

I did sit out last year. I needed time to think about this and decided I didn't really need to kill a sheep. But you know who didn't sit out? The outfitters...

I'm going sheep hunting this year, if I dont' shoot one, a NR will. It might as well be me. Get em while their hot. I mean that's what we're whining about right? If a NR can't shoot one no one should?

In all honestly, I have my doubts that I'll shoot another sheep, unless its really old or special. My wife has a draw tag this year, and I am going hunting on an OTC tag as well, but doubt I'll pull the trigger. She will given a chance on a OIL tag. I just want some mountain time, and a chance to go before it's all gone. Or at least as we know it now.

NR had about a 40% success rate last year. It will be just as bad this year or worse. But its hunting I guess. Residents had a 15% success rate. As opposed to 70-75 to 22-24% NR vs Res

I hope they limit 20A next. I'm going to put in a proposal for it. I really hope guides move from 19 to 20 and other places, it will make it way easier for the BOG to limit NR there and elsewhere. We already have a crowding problem, it will be worse and NR gotta go first. The state land in the central Brooks will likely be getting some extra NR traffic since there is no limit on guides on State lands. It's a perfect storm to finally get NR on a quota.

Only so many sheep to go around, shooting or not shooting them isn't going to increase the population. Its all about allocation now (and always has been) sheep are big money. Kodiak bears are the same, BTW. 40% going to NR...

NR tag sales are almost a rounding error in the budget and cheapest sheep tag in North America. I'm not sure why we're obligated to be the NR welfare state for sheep hunters. I want my kids to have a chance to hunt sheep, I couldn't care less if a NR gets a chance or not. They can apply for MT, CO, ID, WY etc. Plenty of sheep opps down that way.

Probably wasn't the response you were looking for. But I just don't care anymore. More sheep for me and my family. You want in on it, move on up.
 
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I could write a novel on this, but don't really care anymore. I'm glad its closed and its a good start. I'm ok with NR having a small piece of the pie, bit it's long past due to end the OTC no limit NR tags. NR kill 45% of the total sheep harvested every year. Thats 3-4x higher than any state. We are long past due on limits. NR can still hunt Alaska on an OTC tag, just not in 19c. More NR kill sheep in AK than all other states combined. Are you guys lobbying for your own states to hand out 45% of your sheep to NR?

Sheep numbers are down, and I doubt they will ever be what they were just 10 years ago, at least not in the next 20 years. Two recent bad winters back to back and again 9-10 years ago have absolutely crushed the recruitment of rams in 7-8 years from now. We're going to see ram harvests in the 200s as opposed to the 700s just 10 years ago. Our older class rams have all but vanished, due to no recruitment, were killing rams as they become legal, and when we hit the cohorts of 2020-2023 there will be basically zero rams to hunt. And all the old rams will be long shot. 60%of the rams shot last year where 8 or less. Its usually 35%.

I did sit out last year. I needed time to think about this and decided I didn't really need to kill a sheep. But you know who didn't sit out? The outfitters...

I'm going sheep hunting this year, if I dont' shoot one, a NR will. It might as well be me. Get em while their hot. I mean that's what we're whining about right? If a NR can't shoot one no one should?

In all honestly, I have my doubts that I'll shoot another sheep, unless its really old or special. My wife has a draw tag this year, and I am going hunting on an OTC tag as well, but doubt I'll pull the trigger. She will given a chance on a OIL tag. I just want some mountain time, and a chance to go before it's all gone. Or at least as we know it now.

NR had about a 40-45% success rate last year. It will be just as bad this year or worse. But its hunting I guess. Residents had a 15% success rate. As opposed to 70-75 to 22-24% NR vs Res

I hope they limit 20A next. I'm going to put in a proposal for it. I really hope guides move from 19 to 20 and other places, it will make it way easier for the BOG to limit NR there and elsewhere. We already have a crowding problem, it will be worse and Nar gotta go first. The state land in the central Brooks will likely be getting some extra NR traffic since there is no limit on guides on State lands. It's a perfect storm to finally get NR on a quota.

Only so many sheep to go around, shooting or not shooting them isn't going to increase the population. Its all about allocation now (and always has been) sheep are big money. Kodiak bears are the same, BTW. 40% going to NR...

NR tag sales are almost a rounding error in the budget and cheapest sheep tag in North America. I'm not sure why we're obligated to be the NR welfare state for sheep hunters. I want my kids to have a chance to hunt sheep, I couldn't care less if a NR gets a chance or not. They can apply for MT, CO, ID, WY etc. Plenty of sheep opps down that way.

Probably wasn't the response you were looking for. But I just don't care anymore. More sheep for me and my family. You want in on it, move on up.
I was hoping you would chime in. I've never seen a more impressive collection of Dalls than yours, and I for one greatly respect your passion for sheep and your opinion.
The AK residents that take sheep seriously have more invested there than anyone else and I'm guessing no one feels the pain of declining sheep numbers more than they do.
As a NR, it's highly unlikely that I would ever go to AK after sheep so it doesn't matter to me either. Certainly if anyone deserves first crack at what is left, it should be the residents and especially their kids. Hopefully mother nature and good management will somehow turn around the declining numbers.
Thanks for the response Bambistew.
 
I was hoping you would chime in. I've never seen a more impressive collection of Dalls than yours, and I for one greatly respect your passion for sheep and your opinion.
The AK residents that take sheep seriously have more invested there than anyone else and I'm guessing no one feels the pain of declining sheep numbers more than they do.
As a NR, it's highly unlikely that I would ever go to AK after sheep so it doesn't matter to me either. Certainly if anyone deserves first crack at what is left, it should be the residents and especially their kids. Hopefully mother nature and good management will somehow turn around the declining numbers.
Thanks for the response Bambistew.
The gravy train is coming to an end I'm afraid. At least in the near term. But to look on the bright side. MT still has UL tags and we are no where near that bad off. 2% success is a long way down, haha.

It's going to get interesting for sure and I expect outfitters to come to the table and seriously consider the concession program on State lands. Nothing like a little closure to make them squirm and maybe realize that unlimited OTC tags and clients may not work forever.

Like I said I'm content with my sheep hunts of the past. But my kids are just about old enough to start the journey.

Still hard to believe that we give away so much game to NR, sustainable, or surplus what ever you want to call it. All game populations are down. Something has to give.
 
Why is it hard to believe NR get more game? Guys want to hunt, and will do whatever it takes.
Stop blaming the NR,
Stop blaming the Outfitter.
Even stop blaming the Residents who have killed way more sheep than they should have in there life.
How about you put the responsibility on the Fish and Game to manage the species!!!!!
Isn’t it their job to make sure there is a balance
Between hunting and protecting the species?
How about they stand up to ALL the special interest groups and take charge!
 
Why is it hard to believe NR get more game? Guys want to hunt, and will do whatever it takes.
Stop blaming the NR,
Stop blaming the Outfitter.
Even stop blaming the Residents who have killed way more sheep than they should have in there life.
How about you put the responsibility on the Fish and Game to manage the species!!!!!
Isn’t it their job to make sure there is a balance
Between hunting and protecting the species?
How about they stand up to ALL the special interest groups and take charge!
No one is blaming the NR cryfulltime. And why does it get your panties in a wad when residents kill more than one sheep? Is it because you couldn't get it done DIY when you lived here? And had to go guided? How many sheep are more than enough? How many deer? How many elk?

How is ADFG going to manage the sheep with the winters we've been having? What more can they do?

I'm really disappointed that not only did you and your buddies threaten to kick my ass and never did but that you have to censor a hunting forum when someone has an opposing view. Still waiting for you guys to take me to mooses tooth to kick my ass HAHHAHAHAAHAHA

Where's the W$F for all this? I just saw they completed a project in Texas on a private ranch that has ZERO tags for the public and will continue to have ZERO tags for the public. #conservationbutonlyfortherich
 
Why is it hard to believe NR get more game? Guys want to hunt, and will do whatever it takes.
Stop blaming the NR,
Stop blaming the Outfitter.
Even stop blaming the Residents who have killed way more sheep than they should have in there life.
How about you put the responsibility on the Fish and Game to manage the species!!!!!
Isn’t it their job to make sure there is a balance
Between hunting and protecting the species?
How about they stand up to ALL the special interest groups and take charge!
So you're saying white lives matter?
 
I feel your pain for you children.

Not a sheep hunter. Not passionate about sheep. Don’t know one thing about wild sheep. Don’t know the first thing or the last thing about sheep.

I am passionate about deer, both mule deer and whitetail. I’ve been schooled by the best, professionally and by the resident and non-resident hunter. Been threatened physically and philosophically by anti-hunter and hunters alike. Ridiculed and shamed by the worsted and the best guides, outfitters, biologists and basketweavers. You’ll know your sheep are toast and won’t be coming back when all sides, look you square in the eye and tell you, with the conviction of a die hard socialist:

RAMS DON’T HAVE LAMBS

Watch for it.

I feel your pain.
 
I could write a novel on this, but don't really care anymore. I'm glad its closed and its a good start. I'm ok with NR having a small piece of the pie, bit it's long past due to end the OTC no limit NR tags. NR kill 45% of the total sheep harvested every year. Thats 3-4x higher than any state. We are long past due on limits. NR can still hunt Alaska on an OTC tag, just not in 19c. More NR kill sheep in AK than all other states combined. Are you guys lobbying for your own states to hand out 45% of your sheep to NR?

Sheep numbers are down, and I doubt they will ever be what they were just 10 years ago, at least not in the next 20 years. Two recent bad winters back to back and again 9-10 years ago have absolutely crushed the recruitment of rams in 7-8 years from now. We're going to see ram harvests in the 200s as opposed to the 700s just 10 years ago. Our older class rams have all but vanished, due to no recruitment, were killing rams as they become legal, and when we hit the cohorts of 2020-2023 there will be basically zero rams to hunt. And all the old rams will be long shot. 60%of the rams shot last year where 8 or less. Its usually 35%.

I did sit out last year. I needed time to think about this and decided I didn't really need to kill a sheep. But you know who didn't sit out? The outfitters...

I'm going sheep hunting this year, if I dont' shoot one, a NR will. It might as well be me. Get em while their hot. I mean that's what we're whining about right? If a NR can't shoot one no one should?

In all honestly, I have my doubts that I'll shoot another sheep, unless its really old or special. My wife has a draw tag this year, and I am going hunting on an OTC tag as well, but doubt I'll pull the trigger. She will given a chance on a OIL tag. I just want some mountain time, and a chance to go before it's all gone. Or at least as we know it now.

NR had about a 40% success rate last year. It will be just as bad this year or worse. But its hunting I guess. Residents had a 15% success rate. As opposed to 70-75 to 22-24% NR vs Res

I hope they limit 20A next. I'm going to put in a proposal for it. I really hope guides move from 19 to 20 and other places, it will make it way easier for the BOG to limit NR there and elsewhere. We already have a crowding problem, it will be worse and NR gotta go first. The state land in the central Brooks will likely be getting some extra NR traffic since there is no limit on guides on State lands. It's a perfect storm to finally get NR on a quota.

Only so many sheep to go around, shooting or not shooting them isn't going to increase the population. Its all about allocation now (and always has been) sheep are big money. Kodiak bears are the same, BTW. 40% going to NR...

NR tag sales are almost a rounding error in the budget and cheapest sheep tag in North America. I'm not sure why we're obligated to be the NR welfare state for sheep hunters. I want my kids to have a chance to hunt sheep, I couldn't care less if a NR gets a chance or not. They can apply for MT, CO, ID, WY etc. Plenty of sheep opps down that way.

Probably wasn't the response you were looking for. But I just don't care anymore. More sheep for me and my family. You want in on it, move on up.
I agree with the fact that residents deserve a large piece of the pie, I also wouldn’t be against more NR opportunities in my home state which was actually proposed that this year but with that being said if you want it to compare it to the lower 48 and the states that most of us on this forum live in we all have draws ( I know beside the Montana UL) so there for are you against having the whole state of Alaska for dall sheep turn into a draw for res and nr? Also I understand and respect there is a decline in sheep which from the education I have gained about this subject weather is a main factor to the decline but even with that there are more sheep in the state of Alaska then any other state in the lower 48, and that’s why they had a otc opportunity for sheep. Otc opportunities are dead, a thing of the past at least fastly
Approaching and I understand that and with the difficult times of the Alaska sheep herd why not just close the whole
State down, and do a limited draw then.
 
I agree with the fact that residents deserve a large piece of the pie, I also wouldn’t be against more NR opportunities in my home state which was actually proposed that this year but with that being said if you want it to compare it to the lower 48 and the states that most of us on this forum live in we all have draws ( I know beside the Montana UL) so there for are you against having the whole state of Alaska for dall sheep turn into a draw for res and nr? Also I understand and respect there is a decline in sheep which from the education I have gained about this subject weather is a main factor to the decline but even with that there are more sheep in the state of Alaska then any other state in the lower 48, and that’s why they had a otc opportunity for sheep. Otc opportunities are dead, a thing of the past at least fastly
Approaching and I understand that and with the difficult times of the Alaska sheep herd why not just close the whole
State down, and do a limited draw then.
Alaska is so big why would you close the whole state down? That would be like if WY sheep were doing bad you closed MT and CO too.

What would be the goal of going to a full draw? Are you saying the OTC opportunities are partially behind the collapse of the sheep population? I would bet harvest, hunter numbers etc mirror total sheep population. We actually do not know how many sheep we have now or in the past. So how bad are they really doing? We base it off of rams sealed?
 
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Bambistew you have some really good points that I don't think anyone that knows sheep could argue with. It is a bumber that the nrs have to take the hit first. That being said, I have to give credit to Alaska for at least doing something. But sadly it may be too little too late. And I agree, 20A should be next, as in right now next. Colorado apparently doesn't care enough to be proactive as I watch our big game hunting slowly go down the toilet.
 
Over the years, I've often wished that I lived in Alaska and at one point when I was single I even applied for a job there. The job was offered, but I never bit the bullet because while I would have loved the hunting opportunity, I would have hated the winters and other inconveniences.
Other hardy souls like SS and Bambistew, gladly bit that bullet and have been quietly enduring Alaskan hardships to, reap the hunting rewards.
In the past, Alaska and other states have gladly shared in their abundance, but that gravy train seems to be coming to an end. I can only imagine how disappointed residents feel now that those hunting benefits are declining.
As a NR it would be pretty presumptuous for me to offer solutions that I think are better than those who have walked the walk. I can only hope for a brighter sheep hunting future for all of us.
 
I agree with the fact that residents deserve a large piece of the pie, I also wouldn’t be against more NR opportunities in my home state which was actually proposed that this year but with that being said if you want it to compare it to the lower 48 and the states that most of us on this forum live in we all have draws ( I know beside the Montana UL) so there for are you against having the whole state of Alaska for dall sheep turn into a draw for res and nr? Also I understand and respect there is a decline in sheep which from the education I have gained about this subject weather is a main factor to the decline but even with that there are more sheep in the state of Alaska then any other state in the lower 48, and that’s why they had a otc opportunity for sheep. Otc opportunities are dead, a thing of the past at least fastly
Approaching and I understand that and with the difficult times of the Alaska sheep herd why not just close the whole
State down, and do a limited draw then.

I'm not sure where you're from, but there will never be more opportunity given to NR in any state in the west, than there currently is today. Every single state has reduced opportunity. The only "opportunity" that will increase will be for profit, i.e. wealth tags, auction tags, LO tags, etc.

If a draw is what it takes to limit the take, then so be it. There are other ways as well. Limit guides, limit the season, etc. Do we owe NR unlimited OTC opportunity?

The sheep numbers are low in some areas, but not unsustainable. Hunting is a minor piece of the equation. There just isn't enough to go around. Some areas have been closed to residents, actually (Kenia and part of the Central Brooks) recently. They also closed youth season and the late subsistence season in 19C for residents. The general season has limited participation in 19C. Residents killed 3 rams last year and NR killed 27 (5res and 39NR in 2021). Seems like a pretty easy decision to limit the largest consumer. This coming year, I'm estimating we'll be around 350 rams. 65% of our harvest last year was rams 8 and younger, its usually 35%.

ADFG doesn't really have a solid count. I honestly think we are in the 22-25,000 range. ADFG estimated the population had declined 50% or more from 10 years ago. They estimated the statewide total around 42,000 then. That also includes NP herds. The faucet can run forever, and NR should absolutely be restricted first and residents second. Just based on ram harvest and success, the population seems about right.
 
Alaska is so big why would you close the whole state down? That would be like if WY sheep were doing bad you closed MT and CO too.

What would be the goal of going to a full draw? Are you saying the OTC opportunities are partially behind the collapse of the sheep population? I would bet harvest, hunter numbers etc mirror total sheep population. We actually do not know how many sheep we have now or in the past. So how bad are they really doing? We base it off of rams sealed?
No I only mentioned this because if we are going to compare the opportunity and percent of NR / Res draw in the lower 48 then we need to be under the same umbrella. Alaska isn’t a draw in most situations for sheep that’s clear and for good reason but everywhere else in the lower 48 is so it’s hard to compare the two when it comes to that, therefore that’s why I made the statement of it being shut down, evaluated for true herd health across the whole state and turned into a draw.
 
I'm not sure where you're from, but there will never be more opportunity given to NR in any state in the west, than there currently is today. Every single state has reduced opportunity. The only "opportunity" that will increase will be for profit, i.e. wealth tags, auction tags, LO tags, etc.

If a draw is what it takes to limit the take, then so be it. There are other ways as well. Limit guides, limit the season, etc. Do we owe NR unlimited OTC opportunity?

The sheep numbers are low in some areas, but not unsustainable. Hunting is a minor piece of the equation. There just isn't enough to go around. Some areas have been closed to residents, actually (Kenia and part of the Central Brooks) recently. They also closed youth season and the late subsistence season in 19C for residents. The general season has limited participation in 19C. Residents killed 3 rams last year and NR killed 27 (5res and 39NR in 2021). Seems like a pretty easy decision to limit the largest consumer. This coming year, I'm estimating we'll be around 350 rams. 65% of our harvest last year was rams 8 and younger, its usually 35%.

ADFG doesn't really have a solid count. I honestly think we are in the 22-25,000 range. ADFG estimated the population had declined 50% or more from 10 years ago. They estimated the statewide total around 42,000 then. That also includes NP herds. The faucet can run forever, and NR should absolutely be restricted first and residents second. Just based on ram harvest and success, the population seems about right.
I unfortunately live in California but as of right now for elk and antelope only one tag is issued state wide for those species and they are increasing it to up to ten percent of the quota.

I agree with you mostly but what I am trying to say is if we are going to compare apples we need to compare apples to apples, Alaska isn’t currently on a certain draw system for sheep while every state in the lower 48 is. The only thing we could remotely compare would be the UL which as many NR or Res can hunt any year. I’m saying it’s tough to compare the two.
 
I honestly don't understand the logic of "Nonresidents (who have to be guided) kill more sheep than residents even though they have equal OTC opportunity and more #s of residents hunt sheep each year. Therefore we should limit Nonresident opportunity to make it fair."
Remove the guide requirement, and you'll see the # of NRs increase making the NR success rate decrease (but the total NR harvest will likely remain the same as guided demand is still going to be high). Do that and put things in a draw and then cap NRs to 10% or something of tags.

I'm all about managing opportunity, but imposing a cap on NR tags when residents are unlimited in that same area just doesn't fly with me. And I am an Alaska resident (and yes, this opinion makes me suuuuper popular with my hunting buddies).
 
I honestly don't understand the logic of "Nonresidents (who have to be guided) kill more sheep than residents even though they have equal OTC opportunity and more #s of residents hunt sheep each year. Therefore we should limit Nonresident opportunity to make it fair."
Remove the guide requirement, and you'll see the # of NRs increase making the NR success rate decrease (but the total NR harvest will likely remain the same as guided demand is still going to be high). Do that and put things in a draw and then cap NRs to 10% or something of tags.

I'm all about managing opportunity, but imposing a cap on NR tags when residents are unlimited in that same area just doesn't fly with me. And I am an Alaska resident (and yes, this opinion makes me suuuuper popular with my hunting buddies).
You must be from Utah ?
 
Not only is it a State’s right to manage its wildlife, it is it’s responsibility. If the State doesn’t do it……. who will? Really…… who will.

Input from residents is absolutely important and accepting comments from non-residents is perfectly acceptable as well, but ultimately the wildlife, and future hunting opportunities lie, at the feet of the State.
 
I honestly don't understand the logic of "Nonresidents (who have to be guided) kill more sheep than residents even though they have equal OTC opportunity and more #s of residents hunt sheep each year. Therefore we should limit Nonresident opportunity to make it fair."
Remove the guide requirement, and you'll see the # of NRs increase making the NR success rate decrease (but the total NR harvest will likely remain the same as guided demand is still going to be high). Do that and put things in a draw and then cap NRs to 10% or something of tags.

I'm all about managing opportunity, but imposing a cap on NR tags when residents are unlimited in that same area just doesn't fly with me. And I am an Alaska resident (and yes, this opinion makes me suuuuper popular with my hunting buddies).
Really make everyone draw? Why? Plenty of states have OTC opps for residents and require NR to draw, in most states in the west for deer/elk. We have a draw for NR/Res tags already.

Its not about fairness, its about giving away our resources. Its not like resident success will really increase that much. Whats wrong with leaving a few more animals to die of old age. The idea that we must "harvest" every surplus animal is stupid. We end up with less robust populations and set up for crashes... like we're going to see in a few years. Kill off what few old rams we had left and shift to only young rams, what happens when the young rams aren't there from a winter kill?

The idea that if you eliminate the guide requirement would automatically default to a free for all is not reality. Look at all the draw tags for NR we have for moose/caribou/sheep/bears. Moose and black bears are "OTC" animals, yet we have a draw requirement for them. Because NR are dipshits. :D Just kidding. It was out of necessity to limit NR take. The guide requirement won't ever go away.
 
Really make everyone draw? Why? Plenty of states have OTC opps for residents and require NR to draw, in most states in the west for deer/elk. We have a draw for NR/Res tags already.

Its not about fairness, its about giving away our resources. Its not like resident success will really increase that much. Whats wrong with leaving a few more animals to die of old age. The idea that we must "harvest" every surplus animal is stupid. We end up with less robust populations and set up for crashes... like we're going to see in a few years. Kill off what few old rams we had left and shift to only young rams, what happens when the young rams aren't there from a winter kill?

The idea that if you eliminate the guide requirement would automatically default to a free for all is not reality. Look at all the draw tags for NR we have for moose/caribou/sheep/bears. Moose and black bears are "OTC" animals, yet we have a draw requirement for them. Because NR are dipshits. :D Just kidding. It was out of necessity to limit NR take. The guide requirement won't ever go away.
I agree that making sheep statewide go to a draw for everybody doesn't quite make sense yet. But complaining that because nonresidents are more effective at killing sheep as the reason to put a hard cap on the number of nonresidents that can even try to hunt sheep in Alaska is hardly sensical either. If you dig into the root cause of the efficacy disparity between resident and nonresident sheep hunters, the most likely explanation is the guide requirement. The second most likely contributing factor in that difference is the skewed data from the number of casual resident sheep hunters that print off a harvest ticket, report that they hunted when they maybe just looked at the mountains from the Denali, Seward, Steese, or Glenn highways hoping to luck into a ram.

If the goal is to kill fewer total sheep, then I will listen to reasonable restrictions on nonresidents before residents. But whenever I have gotten into this discussion (especially with RHAK folks), it comes out that they aren't concerned with reducing the number of sheep killed--just with making sure that residents are killing more than nonresidents. That's a zero sum game. When we require nonresidents to pony up tens of thousands of dollars to a guide to be able to hunt sheep, we shouldn't be surprised that the nonresident hunters and their guides are pretty damned determined and invested in killing sheep on their hunt. They are far less likely to say, "let's pull out and try again next year. I'm tired/cold/wet" than the resident who has a few thousand in transport fees on the line.

I agree that politically the guide subsidy won't ever go away. But it should.
 
I'm not sure where you're from, but there will never be more opportunity given to NR in any state in the west, than there currently is today. Every single state has reduced opportunity. The only "opportunity" that will increase will be for profit, i.e. wealth tags, auction tags, LO tags, etc.

If a draw is what it takes to limit the take, then so be it. There are other ways as well. Limit guides, limit the season, etc. Do we owe NR unlimited OTC opportunity?

The sheep numbers are low in some areas, but not unsustainable. Hunting is a minor piece of the equation. There just isn't enough to go around. Some areas have been closed to residents, actually (Kenia and part of the Central Brooks) recently. They also closed youth season and the late subsistence season in 19C for residents. The general season has limited participation in 19C. Residents killed 3 rams last year and NR killed 27 (5res and 39NR in 2021). Seems like a pretty easy decision to limit the largest consumer. This coming year, I'm estimating we'll be around 350 rams. 65% of our harvest last year was rams 8 and younger, its usually 35%.

ADFG doesn't really have a solid count. I honestly think we are in the 22-25,000 range. ADFG estimated the population had declined 50% or more from 10 years ago. They estimated the statewide total around 42,000 then. That also includes NP herds. The faucet can run forever, and NR should absolutely be restricted first and residents second. Just based on ram harvest and success, the population seems about right.
New Mexico has not reduced opportunity for Sheep in fact ot has been the opposite it has increased opportunities for Non Res as our sheep populations have increased they have given more tags to non res as well as residents.

When the Turk injuction was imposed back in 1978 non res had the same odds as resident until 2010 I think it was overturned and since that time more tags have been in the draw for both res and non res, but before that there were few tags given out in the drawing and because the Turk injunction non res drew all of those tags for atleast 20 straight years with no tags being drawn by residents.
 
It’s clear to me that the state of Alaska cannot manage game populations and this is just another species to add to the list. It’s also clear to me that it won’t be winter, disease, etc but a hunter that will kill the last sheep if there was only one left on the mountain.
 
You are probably correct.The sheep can’t keep taking this much pressure.
BC is having the same problems.
With that said, it will take non residents out of the mix and no more jealousy and blame.
Hopefully they cut residents in the next 2 years.
No reason a guy needs to kill a Dall every year.
Those days are over.
Yeah I have a buddy who moved to Alaska, as a resident he kills 2 grizzly, a sheep, goat , multiple caribou, every year, I don get the system, his neighbor does the same plus nets fish as a resident
 
I agree that making sheep statewide go to a draw for everybody doesn't quite make sense yet. But complaining that because nonresidents are more effective at killing sheep as the reason to put a hard cap on the number of nonresidents that can even try to hunt sheep in Alaska is hardly sensical either. If you dig into the root cause of the efficacy disparity between resident and nonresident sheep hunters, the most likely explanation is the guide requirement. The second most likely contributing factor in that difference is the skewed data from the number of casual resident sheep hunters that print off a harvest ticket, report that they hunted when they maybe just looked at the mountains from the Denali, Seward, Steese, or Glenn highways hoping to luck into a ram.

If the goal is to kill fewer total sheep, then I will listen to reasonable restrictions on nonresidents before residents. But whenever I have gotten into this discussion (especially with RHAK folks), it comes out that they aren't concerned with reducing the number of sheep killed--just with making sure that residents are killing more than nonresidents. That's a zero sum game. When we require nonresidents to pony up tens of thousands of dollars to a guide to be able to hunt sheep, we shouldn't be surprised that the nonresident hunters and their guides are pretty damned determined and invested in killing sheep on their hunt. They are far less likely to say, "let's pull out and try again next year. I'm tired/cold/wet" than the resident who has a few thousand in transport fees on the line.

I agree that politically the guide subsidy won't ever go away. But it should.

I don't think the "goal" is to kill fewer sheep, there is only half as many sheep to go around. By eliminating NR, they are by default going to kill less sheep.

I'm not complaining about NR taking sheep, just pointing out that they take nearly half of them. If there isn't enough to go around, they should be the first to have some sort of restriction.

I really couldn't care less if a NR gets to hunt here or not. I certainly am not going to fight for their opportunity to hunt here over my kids.

With success rates being so low (38-40% for guided NR), the age of harvest dropping and lack of recruitment... The closure in 19 is the just the start, I'm afraid.

When we shoot 375 rams this fall, and 350 next and 300 the following. Do you really think that residents are going to be lining up in support of continued OTC opportunity for NR when they can't even find a ram to shoot? They sure as hell aren't going to be advocating they put themselves on a draw or close areas.

You said, more or less, residents are not as good at killing sheep. Isn't that kind of like the bowhunter argument. Lots of opportunity, with low success? Why would you need to limit the group with the lowest success?

ADFG isn't going to admit that FC regulations don't work, and there isn't any evidence to suggest they don't... They basically said there is no lower limit on what can be harvested under FC regs. I wouldn't look at ADFG to recommend limiting harvest, or to limit residents anytime soon. They found 1 legal ram on the Kenia and didn't recommend closing the season. :D
 
Yeah I have a buddy who moved to Alaska, as a resident he kills 2 grizzly, a sheep, goat , multiple caribou, every year, I don get the system, his neighbor does the same plus nets fish as a resident
What’s your point? AK is a f’ing giant state with very few residents. The guy is obviously a manimal if he’s accessing and hunting all of those species successfully. I would say he’s a 1%er in a state that already is sparsely populated. I’m also jealous of WY residents and OTC deer and elk tags but that doesn’t mean I can’t move there and do what they do, no different then this guy in AK
 
The problem with using success rates as your metric for how to divide up the pie is that the access to the resources is not equal. Based on the numbers you've put out here, and I have no reason to doubt that they are accurate, NRs kill ~45% of the total sheep with about a 40% success rate. You didn't state what % of those NRs were hunting under 2nd degree of kindred rules, but I think we can safely assume it is so few as to be negligible in the analysis. So residents are killing ~55% of the rams, but have only a 15% success rate. Overall, both Rs and NRs have unlimited OTC opportunity. But NRs have an astronomically higher economic barrier to entry by having to hire a guide--somebody who presumably is going to be better than the average hunter at finding and killing sheep.

If we aren't trying to kill fewer sheep because it really is just that there are fewer legal rams on the landscape able to be killed...which means we have no choice but to kill fewer sheep...but the number of legal rams killed in a given year doesn't seem to affect the herd growth...then all that is really being complained about is who is successful and who isn't. You want to change the opportunities to play because you don't like how often somebody else is "winning."

Ignoring the financial burdens of getting a guide, Rs and NRs have "equal" access to unlimited tags. More Rs than NRs take advantage of this year in and year out. And more Rs than NRs, in terms of absolute numbers, succeed in killing a ram each year. But that isn't enough.

Rs already have the home field advantage and the ability to DIY that NRs do not. This puts us where you don't have to save for decades or a lifetime or be flush with cash to hunt sheep--even some pretty broke dudes manage to do it every year up here. That is just not the case for the NRs who have to pay a guide. To require NRs to be guided and then to complain that NRs have a higher success rate at killing rams is absurd. "The consequences of my actions are causing me to dislike the outcomes I have created!" And to then use this as the support for further unbalanced restrictions reminds me a bit of an argument between my kids when they were 4 and 2: "but MOOOM! IT ISN'T FAIR!!! HIS PIECE IS EVEN BIGGER TO HIM THAN MINE IS TO ME BECAUSE HE IS SMALLER!" "But yours was actually bigger! And he ate it faster than you, even though he had a smaller fork. Why does that make you feel upset?"

You want to lower the success rate of NRs in killing sheep? Eliminate the guide requirement, let NRs hunt DIY and while the total number of NRs killing sheep will likely remain constant their success rate will start to trend towards that of residents. Maybe that will make some people feel better?

If we can't eliminate the guide requirement (which I admit will likely never go away) then put further restrictions on entry on the guides. This will still cause a bottleneck that limits NR participation. But without eliminating the guiding requirement, you cannot have an apples-to-apples comparison using success outcomes that is cogently constructed.
 
Dang Dude
Take a breath!
You want to get rid of evil Guides and non residents I get it! ANYTHING to get rid of competition!
But you also need to get rid of Residents who scout from the air. Land and then go up the drainage and kill a sheep! Happens many many times every year!
Go on utube and see how many guys “I can’t believe it, I landed and went up this drainage and there just happened to be a legal sheep!
LOL
Same thing with hunt every year if you want but you only kill ONE sheep every 4 years!
You can’t tell me guys are living off sheep meat!LOL
ESPECIALLY when they have their own plane.?
 
I know an area where the success rate for NR will be 0% this coming year. :D


Dang Dude
Take a breath!
You want to get rid of evil Guides and non residents I get it! ANYTHING to get rid of competition!
But you also need to get rid of Residents who scout from the air. Land and then go up the drainage and kill a sheep! Happens many many times every year!
Go on utube and see how many guys “I can’t believe it, I landed and went up this drainage and there just happened to be a legal sheep!
LOL
Same thing with hunt every year if you want but you only kill ONE sheep every 4 years!
You can’t tell me guys are living off sheep meat!LOL
ESPECIALLY when they have their own plane.?
I really couldn't care less if NR get to hunt here or not. No body is living of sheep meat and if you look at some threads here recently, many hunters leave lots of meat in the field.

In 2016 the BOG instituted a ban on aerial spotting during the season. I have no doubt it still happens from time to time, but it isn't happening many, many times a year. I honestly have heard of 1-2 credible instances in the last 7 years. If it was happening all the time, you'd think it would be a lot more prevalent and you'd hear about it. Curious how you know it happens all the time?

Too many cameras out there and people paying attention. I know in the areas I hunt, I haven't seen a single plane spotting since the ban, and I used to see 2-3 in a 10 day trip. Sheep aren't that hard to hunt. The hard part is finding a legal one. Many of those youtube videos are guided hunters, with guides who have a lot of knowledge. I don't watch to many of those videos, so maybe it happens or is more obvious. Curious what your sheep hunting experience has been in Alaska. The areas I hunt, the guides know exactly where the rams will be, and so do I. Flying doesn't gain you anything, we already know where they'll be from year to year. Its funny seeing guys post their big hunting stories and talk about their hunt, unbeknownst to them that their guide scouted their ram a week before they showed up and knew he was there. :D

One every 4 years? Why? Jealousy?

The AK Professional Professional Hunters Association successfully passed a proposal to limit NR to 1:4. They knew full well the only people it would impact were next of kin non residents. Guided hunters that go more than 1 time in 4 years was incidental, and it wasn't like they couldn't fill the slot, if the dude couldn't' rebook. They also got the rule passed that next of kin must share their bag limit with their resident kin... That was later rescinded. Funny how the NR guys with their panties in a wad, didn't realize that unless you play the $ game you're a worthless POS and should be regulated. haha That's also the reason we will never have unguided sheep hunts in Alaska. :D If you are a sheep hunter and don't have money to play, you are unwanted.

Very, very few guys kill more than one sheep in 4 years. We looked at the impact and what it would do during the review if the APHA proposal, for NR went to the 1:4 it eliminated about 12 hunters out of a 4 year block, about 8 of them where Next of Kin (a couple of them used to post on this forum, actually). For residents it wouldn't have much of an effect, because success rates are so low, along with the fact that most residents only hunt sheep occasionally, or once in their lifetime. Out of ~4500 unique resident sheep hunters in a given 4 year period, about 110+/- killed more than one ram in that time frame ~2.5%. About 1500 rams were killed by residents. There would be basically no net effect on harvest or it would be indiscernible.

The 1:4 rule was first used as a management too for bears on the peninsula in the late 80s. The effect there was much different because a large portion of the guys taking bears were killing more than one bear in 4 years. IIRC it was about 18-20% of hunters were taking more than one bear in 4 years. I don't recall for sure, its been a few years since I talked to the bio that proposed the rules. It had a dramatic effect on harvest. I know 3 guys that took 8-9 bears each, before it was changed.

There's only so many sheep to go around, and we haven't seen the bottom yet. This issue has been going on for over a decade and its going to get even worse.
 
most residents only hunt sheep occasionally
This is what really caught my attention in your post. I get it that a lot of hunters aren't necessarily sheep hunters. I'm still like a kid waiting for Christmas when it comes to chasing elk and deer every year in Colorado. I couldn't imagine living in a state that gives me the privilege to buy a tag every year and go chase dalls. You guys really have it good as far as that goes.

My opinion is that Alaska fish and game should have never allowed the dall situation to get this bad to begin with. And even though I tend to partially agree with your opinion on NR closure, I believe they simply should have cut back the hunter numbers ( even if it was solely NR numbers) years ago to prevent this drastic measure. I try to see this from your perspective because I believe we will see a day in the very near future here in Colorado, that something is going to have to give with our struggling deer numbers.
 
My opinion is that Alaska fish and game should have never allowed the dall situation to get this bad to begin with. And even though I tend to partially agree with your opinion on NR closure, I believe they simply should have cut back the hunter numbers ( even if it was solely NR numbers) years ago to prevent this drastic measure. I try to see this from your perspective because I believe we will see a day in the very near future here in Colorado, that something is going to have to give with our struggling deer numbers.
So ADFG should have gotten into the weather control game years ago.

You could have cut back hunting numbers to zero years ago through the present and we would still be in the same position.
 
So ADFG should have gotten into the weather control game years ago.

You could have cut back hunting numbers to zero years ago through the present and we would still be in the same position.
Not my point at all. I know that the harsh winters have been the main culprit. But cutting back on tags would have surely made at least a small difference rather than just sitting on your hands until it requires a total closure.
 
Not my point at all. I know that the harsh winters have been the main culprit. But cutting back on tags would have surely made at least a small difference rather than just sitting on your hands until it requires a total closure.
How many rams give birth? Is there a single study showing that the decline in sheep numbers is due to ewes not being bred?

Those are the only ways your theory holds water
 
How many rams give birth? Is there a single study showing that the decline in sheep numbers is due to ewes not being bred?

Those are the only ways your theory holds water
The decline in numbers didn't just all of a sudden happen overnight.
 
The decline in numbers didn't just all of a sudden happen overnight.
You're right. It has occurred over the last ~15 years due to a series of years with unfavorable spring and winter conditions. The declines are not only happening in OTC harvest areas but also in trophy managed draw areas and areas completely closed to sheep hunting.

It isn't a decline caused in any statistically significant way by hunter harvest.
 
You're right. It has occurred over the last ~15 years due to a series of years with unfavorable spring and winter conditions. The declines are not only happening in OTC harvest areas but also in trophy managed draw areas and areas completely closed to sheep hunting.

It isn't a decline caused in any statistically significant way by hunter harvest.
Uhh, then why the non resident closure?
 
I don’t think I buy into any philosophy mentioned here.

Do I love hunting sheep? You bet I do but I’ve only had a hand full of opportunities too. Some of those where with friends.

My answer to any down cycle in game population is take away the rifle not the opportunity to hunt. The rifle kills at a higher percentage than any bad winter or drought.

If we continue to propose taking opportunity away that opportunity is not going to be there for you nor your kids either.

The answer isn’t eliminating opportunity to hunt it’s limiting the effectiveness of the rifle. Just make the entire state Archery only for 10 years and see what happens. Lol
 
I don’t think I buy into any philosophy mentioned here.

Do I love hunting sheep? You bet I do but I’ve only had a hand full of opportunities too. Some of those where with friends.

My answer to any down cycle in game population is take away the rifle not the opportunity to hunt. The rifle kills at a higher percentage than any bad winter or drought.

If we continue to propose taking opportunity away that opportunity is not going to be there for you nor your kids either.

The answer isn’t eliminating opportunity to hunt it’s limiting the effectiveness of the rifle. Just make the entire state Archery only for 10 years and see what happens. Lol
Understood. So you want to take away opportunity even if hunting isn’t the reason for the decline? You rather there be NO hunting and the rams all to die by winter kill?

I’d rather see some die by bullets than only die by winter.
 
I’m half kidding, and I never said to take a way opportunity I advocated to keep opportunity.

Make it archery only or muzzloader.

Keep it OTC

And “YES” take away the guide requirement (yes I’m from Utah). Seem we are the only logical ones around here.

If government would stop regulating a well fair system on guilds and manage on weapon when units need it then things will level out.

I’ve had two sheep tags in my lifetime one was an archery tag in Colorado. I did not fill my tag, but I loved every minute of that time spent trying to find rams. I would give up one shoulder mount of a Ram to be able to hunt that unit 10 times. So if things are Sooooooo bad up there then just do what we can control and eliminate the bullet. Just until the herd recovers. But don’t take away opportunity for both the Non-Res and Res.
 
Understood. So you want to take away opportunity even if hunting isn’t the reason for the decline? You rather there be NO hunting and the rams all to die by winter kill?

I’d rather see some die by bullets than only die by winter.
Agreed! That’s the point I was trying to make. Limit hunting instead of a total closure.
 
I’m half kidding, and I never said to take a way opportunity I advocated to keep opportunity.

Make it archery only or muzzloader.

Keep it OTC

And “YES” take away the guide requirement (yes I’m from Utah). Seem we are the only logical ones around here.

If government would stop regulating a well fair system on guilds and manage on weapon when units need it then things will level out.

I’ve had two sheep tags in my lifetime one was an archery tag in Colorado. I did not fill my tag, but I loved every minute of that time spent trying to find rams. I would give up one shoulder mount of a Ram to be able to hunt that unit 10 times. So if things are Sooooooo bad up there then just do what we can control and eliminate the bullet. Just until the herd recovers. But don’t take away opportunity for both the Non-Res and Res.
As the popularity of the western hunting has exploded I’m very thankful for the guide requirement up here. In fact I would like to see it expanded to include moose. This would be an easy sell once NR sheep opportunity disappears. My reason being is the demand for fly out moose hunting has exploded causing the fly in transporters to get 10 to 15k because the demand is there. They’ve priced out many resident hunters. One transporter’s clients this fall in Western AK is ALL non resident moose hunters. Just 10 years ago it was 20%.

There’s enough dip **** NR moose hunters out there that I don’t think it would be too difficult to get some regulation going. Here’s a great example of a NR moose hunter:


Plenty of Utards making it up here every year posting stupid chit to the internet to get the law changed. Probably take little effort.
 
As the popularity of the western hunting has exploded I’m very thankful for the guide requirement up here. In fact I would like to see it expanded to include moose. This would be an easy sell once NR sheep opportunity disappears. My reason being is the demand for fly out moose hunting has exploded causing the fly in transporters to get 10 to 15k because the demand is there. They’ve priced out many resident hunters. One transporter’s clients this fall in Western AK is ALL non resident moose hunters. Just 10 years ago it was 20%.

There’s enough dip **** NR moose hunters out there that I don’t think it would be too difficult to get some regulation going. Here’s a great example of a NR moose hunter:


Plenty of Utards making it up here every year posting stupid chit to the internet to get the law changed. Probably take little effort.
I enjoyed that a lot. Didn’t seem too goofy, more like what I’d expect to see from three guys doing their thing.
 
I enjoyed that a lot. Didn’t seem too goofy, more like what I’d expect to see from three guys doing their thing.
Did you not see where the shot over the back of the bull with the bow and then shot it twice with a rifle? Then claim they shot it with a bow? Hahahahahh ? s
 
Lol, yeah he missed it. However, that hardly qualifies for a guide requirement. You should love to Wyoming and join the choir!
 
I will say though, I’m not sure what is more dumb… to shot and miss and then follow up with a gun, then brag you killed it with a bow, then go home watch all the footage and clearly see you shot over the back but heck with that and go ahead and post it to you tube anyway. Or, shooting that bull when you knew it was in 2 feet of water ?
 
Did you not see where the shot over the back of the bull with the bow and then shot it twice with a rifle? Then claim they shot it with a bow? Hahahahahh ? s
Nope didn’t notice. Wasn’t looking for it however. I’ll take your word for it.

Not cool. Folks should just do their thing and own it for what it is.

When hunting or anything else, becomes a business, of any kind…….. some folks behave poorly.
 

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