Antelope Point Creep

Phantom Hunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,586
Seems as if there was quite a bit of point creep this year over last in the antelope draw. The unit we applied for took 6 points to draw in the special and last two years only took 2!! I looked at a few other units and saw similar point creep. Anyone know what drove the points up??
 

ridgerunner

Very Active Member
Messages
1,863
I think its getting more popular, fewer tags compared to five-six years ago and the later draw date, if people strike out with other stuff I think they are turning to Wyoming antelope.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
IMHO a lot more people are starting to see that it's a waste of money and precious time building PPs for units they may never draw and are using them for lower tier units like you mentioned that jacks the PP level up. The other reason mentioned may be the 5/31 application date that allowed many people to wait and see if they drew tags in other states and when they didn't they had that extra time to apply. Going from 2PPs to 6PPs like the OP mentioned is quite a jump in one year though!
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-16 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]This has nothing to do with points creep. There were either more applicants or less tags. One can easily determine which is the cause. People think that if there wasn't points somehow draw odds would never change. As residents we often see rapid changes in draw odds and don't have points to blame it on.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>This has nothing to do with
>points creep. There were
>either more applicants or less
>tags. One can easily
>determine which is the cause.
> People think that if
>there wasn't points somehow draw
>odds would never change.
>As residents we often see
>rapid changes in draw odds
>and don't have points to
>blame it on.


That would be the case for residents that don't have a PP system and all are on an equal basis. However, PP creep is definitely involved in the NR draws because of exactly what I mentioned. Yes, what you said also definitely plays a big part in it, but if more people start applying with more PPs than was being required to draw in the past that haven't played the game before it certainly will require more PPs to draw the number of tags being offered in a unit than was previously required. It really doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out when PPs are also involved in a draw like it is with NRs.
 

lostinOregon

Very Active Member
Messages
1,638
I think the main culprit is the change in the application deadline dates. Every state is basically over. Most would prefer to hunt deer or elk and if they strike out now they can still hunt antelope. A lot of folks finally figured out that the Red Desert units won't flatten out on points for many years to come so are applying elsewhere.

Rich
 

littlebighorn

Long Time Member
Messages
4,133
Another variable might also be published hunter success in the particular unit you applied for. It only takes one or two gagger bucks being posted online for everyone to shift their focus on where they want to hunt.
 

WillPower

Active Member
Messages
231
Not sure on the point creep as my son and I drew a red desert unit with 7 averaged points that had been taking 9 or 10 to draw. 10 was 100% last year if I looked at the data correctly. Was surprised to draw the unit with 7. Unit had 100 tags down from 150 two years ago.


"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"
 

tailchasers

Long Time Member
Messages
3,710
Tag numbers are way down from where they were a few years ago. So yes you are seeing point creep with current tag numbers and I believe Wyoming is trying real hard to increase the herd size.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
You can call it point creep but that's just a cute way to say the draw odds got worse in that unit.....and maybe over the whole State for all the combined reasons above.
Points or not, it's simply that demand is outstripping supply so whether points are in play or not, your odds got worse.
Zeke
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
OH, and point creep is real but it's just a function of greater demand than available tags.
There will always be "creep" when more and more applicants actually apply for a limited resource.
It's all about the odds = tags v applicants, and points are just a way to work your way to the top of the pile without the randomness of other draw systems.
Zeke
 

Largebull

Active Member
Messages
353
I am from AZ. and know more guys are going there cause they realize they will only get one or two tags in their life time down here. So on Az hunting sites lotta guys are talking bout going. I did 2 years ago as I was 2 points behind max. for all species. At 60 I'm never going to get the best units. I have deer and elk to burn the next few years then I'M out of the scam point game. I will buy a left over Montana tag if ever needed ,and I have 3 times............Bull!
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
Topgun,

If there wasn't points applicants would be looking at odds. If they saw a unit with higher draw odds and the unit they normally put in for had lower odds (for whatever reason) a collective group of hunters may switch to the unit with better odds. It happens all the time with residents and other states without points. I've seen units swing 20% with no fluctuations in tag numbers (with no points). Call it what you want but points have nothing to do with it.
"points creep" is a catchy enough term but at the end of the day its #of tags/amount of applicants.
The reason I care is because people like you make it sound like if you didn't have pts the Wyoming draw would be fair and equitable. I know you like to pretend like your a resident but your not. The random draw sucks and is far from the best way to go.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>Topgun,
>
>If there wasn't points applicants would
>be looking at odds.
>If they saw a unit
>with higher draw odds and
>the unit they normally put
>in for had lower odds
>(for whatever reason) a collective
>group of hunters may switch
>to the unit with better
>odds. It happens all
>the time with residents and
>other states without points.
>I've seen units swing 20%
>with no fluctuations in tag
>numbers (with no points).
>Call it what you want
>but points have nothing to
>do with it.
>"points creep" is a catchy enough
>term but at the end
>of the day its #of
>tags/amount of applicants.
>The reason I care is because
>people like you make it
>sound like if you didn't
>have pts the Wyoming draw
>would be fair and equitable.
>I know you like to
>pretend like your a resident
>but your not. The
>random draw sucks and is
>far from the best way
>to go.

+1 on all that Eric
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-16 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]Question for you Jeff---Why are you agreeing with "all that" in that post when I seem to recall you and BuzzH having been very adamant about residents not having a PP system? Am I wrong about that or have you changed your views on the draw systems? I also know BuzzH has been very outspoken on the point sharing that NRs are allowed to do and has stated that causes PP creep and I believe you have also agreed with him on that. If I'm wrong on either, I apologize and you can set me straight on your ideas/feelings. I really fail to see how anyone can say that a straight random system isn't the fairest way to dole out tags when everyone goes in the draw equal. It may not seem fair to someone that strikes out a lot and sees someone else that seems to draw all the time and those are the ones like feduptwo that usually don't like that system.

I have always felt the random system is the best, but with one tweak. If/when a person draws a unit with very bad odds, then they should be disqualified for a certain number of years from applying in any similar difficult draw units. In the present resident system IMHO that would be the best way to go to alleviate that problem without going to a PP system. What are your feelings on how you would like to see the resident draws?

There is no doubt that the number of tags versus the number of applicants is what makes the odds for a particular unit in any type of a draw system. However, when you then add the points system into it like the NR faces there is most certainly PP creep when more of those people that apply have more PPs than people than were previously applying and able to draw that tag in the past. A good example of that is what I faced regarding deer unit 125. I just missed drawing that unit a few years ago with 3 PPs in the Regular Draw. The next year I was further out as it got some press and more people with more PPs applied and drew that tags. The following year I was even further out, so last year I decided to put in for Region G with my 6PPs that I knew would be enough to draw that tag and I could get out of the rat race! Even this year based on the stats for 125 I wouldn't have drawn a tag if I had bought a PP last year and had 7 for it. That is certainly due to PP creep with more and more applying that are near max 10 PPs, as well as the unit having some tag cuts that didn't help matters. Another example is the antelope unit I previously drew 3 buck tags in within 9 years that now takes 6 or 7 years to draw a tag because of those with a lot of PPs applying for the same of number of tags offered over that time period. The odds were made worse strictly because of people applying that had a lot of PPs, so I quit buying PPs after I drew my 3rd tag for that unit. I will not buy PPs for any animals from now on and if I can't draw a tag of my own I'll either look for a leftover or be more than content after 63 years of hunting to help friends on their hunts. I mentioned to you in my PM over the weekend all that I have going all of September and October this year even though I only have one deer tag of my own, so I'm a happy camper.

To make just a one sentence statement on the NR PP system vs the random resident system it would be this. The higher PP level numbers that draw the tags in a unit in the NR system are what drives the odds up or down in that system, as compared to strictly the number of applicants in a unit in the resident system where everyone is on an equal footing.

I did have a good laugh at the statement he made that I like to pretend I'm a resident. Everyone on this site knows I'm not and it's right in my profile as to my name and where I live. I wish I was and will say that I probably keep up with what's going on in Wyoming on anything relating to hunting as much as I can through a number of friends that are residents than a good share of residents do. If that makes me sound like a resident, maybe that's a positive. I just wish I did live out there and could put in time on the ground in my retirement years helping with projects to better the habitat that I can't do from 1500 miles away. Cheers and please clear up what I may be misunderstanding in regards to your thoughts on the resident draws for elk, deer, and antelope. Also, sorry for how long this post got!
 

Togwotee

Long Time Member
Messages
5,239
I don't think all units are seeing point creep. I drew 57 with max points but it looks like 8 would have done the job. same as last year.

The only people who don't like points are people who don't have enough of them. As of this year points in WY have given me my elk, moose, sheep and pronghorn tag in top units. with max deer it's just a matter of time. after I draw that and don't have enough points to draw anything good I'll agree the point system sucks.














Stay Thirsty My Friends
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
The first time I met Buzz we were at odds over PP at the State Capital, so on that you remember wrong. Buzz and I do agree on point averaging, whether it adds to lower drawing odds or not.

"Point Creep" is a nonsensical way to discuss low drawing odds. Eric is 100% right what he wrote. If there is only a 10% chance at drawing a tag with 4 pts, it stands to reason the next year it will take 5 pts to draw. That will change proportionately with more applicants or lower tag numbers. Some use the phrase "point creep" when debating PP and truly show they don't have a clue on what they are talking about.

No offense Mike, but it's a laugher when I hear "random is fairest way to dole out tags". The truth is, all things being equal, it is the fairest system, the FIRST year it is used, but never again after that. Case in point; the friend who hasn't drawn in 23 years compared to the friend that has drawn 6 years in a row.

Waiting periods help a little, but don't work for the "I want a chance every year" crowd.

IMO 50% random, 50% PP is the best alternative and according to statistical analysis, is even better for youth in the long haul on drawing tags.
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
>The first time I met Buzz
>we were at odds over
>PP at the State Capital,
>so on that you remember
>wrong. Buzz and I do
>agree on point averaging, whether
>it adds to lower drawing
>odds or not.
>
>"Point Creep" is a nonsensical way
>to discuss low drawing odds.
>Eric is 100% right what
>he wrote. If there
>is only a 10% chance
>at drawing a tag with
>4 pts, it stands to
>reason the next year it
>will take 5 pts to
>draw. That will change proportionately
>with more applicants or lower
>tag numbers. Some use the
>phrase "point creep" when debating
>PP and truly show they
>don't have a clue on
>what they are talking about.
>
>
>No offense Mike, but it's a
>laugher when I hear "random
>is fairest way to dole
>out tags". The truth is,
>all things being equal, it
>is the fairest system, the
>FIRST year it is used,
>but never again after that.
>Case in point; the friend
>who hasn't drawn in 23
>years compared to the friend
>that has drawn 6 years
>in a row.
>
>Waiting periods help a little, but
>don't work for the "I
>want a chance every year"
>crowd.
>
>IMO 50% random, 50% PP is
>the best alternative and according
>to statistical analysis, is even
>better for youth in the
>long haul on drawing tags.
>

Plus one!
Zeke
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>The first time I met Buzz
>we were at odds over
>PP at the State Capital,
>so on that you remember
>wrong. Buzz and I do
>agree on point averaging, whether
>it adds to lower drawing
>odds or not.

***Okay, I knew you were on the same page on averaging and my poor old memory was wrong if that's your only agreement with him because I know he's always said a totally random system is the way he would prefer.

>"Point Creep" is a nonsensical way
>to discuss low drawing odds.
>Eric is 100% right what
>he wrote. If there
>is only a 10% chance
>at drawing a tag with
>4 pts, it stands to
>reason the next year it
>will take 5 pts to
>draw. That will change proportionately
>with more applicants or lower
>tag numbers. Some use the
>phrase "point creep" when debating
>PP and truly show they
>don't have a clue on
>what they are talking about.

***It stands to reason IF people with a higher number of PPs put in for the tag with those PPs, but if that isn't the case the PPs required may stay static or decrease. Yes, odds will certainly a change with more applicants or less tags, but the change is definitely affected by how many PPs people have that apply in the NR draws. That is where people use the term "creep" whether it may be appropriate or not. The end result is that the odds go up or down based on how many people apply at higher PP levels, so I have to disagree that people don't have a clue just because of the word use to describe what's happening.

>No offense Mike, but it's a
>laugher when I hear "random
>is fairest way to dole
>out tags". The truth is,
>all things being equal, it
>is the fairest system, the
>FIRST year it is used,
>but never again after that.
>Case in point; the friend
>who hasn't drawn in 23
>years compared to the friend
>that has drawn 6 years
>in a row.

***No offense taken, but mathematically everyone has the same chance even if one person draws every year and another never does. At least they have that chance every year and that's why it's considered fairest by many. Your case in point doesn't change the fact that both of them had the same exact chance if the same system is used and that's what the definition of "random" is.

>Waiting periods help a little, but
>don't work for the "I
>want a chance every year"
>crowd.

***True and why along with that random system it would give them even a better chance every year even if they never get the tag!

>IMO 50% random, 50% PP is
>the best alternative and according
>to statistical analysis, is even
>better for youth in the
>long haul on drawing tags.

***That sounds like a pretty fair way to set up a system from scratch that I could go along with. If there is a push in Wyoming for a resident PP system, is that what you would lobby for if it came down to having one for residents? Changing any system after it is in effect most times will screw ones that have PPs and benefit those that don't. It seems like every couple years one of the states makes a change due to the increase in applicants and some end up happy and some get screwed. AZ is a good example the way they changed their system this year and my buddy drew another 6A tag under that change when he probably wouldn't or shouldn't have under the old system. He's happy and a guy that didn't get drawn because of it is in the dumps!

Nothing will ever make everyone happy and that's just the way life is!
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>I don't think all units are
>seeing point creep. I
>drew 57 with max points
>but it looks like 8
>would have done the job.
> same as last year.
>
>
>The only people who don't like
>points are people who don't
>have enough of them.
>As of this year points
>in WY have given me
>my elk, moose, sheep and
>pronghorn tag in top units.
> with max deer it's
>just a matter of time.
> after I draw
>that and don't have enough
>points to draw anything good
>I'll agree the point system
>sucks.

That, Sir, pretty well describes what I mentioned above regarding point levels of the applicants and also puts an exclamation on the thoughts of most about that type of system depending on your PP level status!
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
We can either blame points or blame random draws. It makes zero difference. There will always be the exact number of applicants and the exact tags issued at any given point in time, and the exact number of unsuccessful folks complaining about the drawing process.

With that said, Points are the MOST fair and reward those who are dedicated and will re-reward those who jump back into the game once they draw (Sheep and moose excluded, of course).

There are always random tags to be drawn and a guy is foolish to sit around and whine about points and say random is only fair and then never apply when he might draw a random tag even with points in play.

But hey, whining and complaining is why MM is here for some guys.

I don't get it!

Zeke
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-16 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]>We can either blame points or
>blame random draws. It makes
>zero difference. There will always
>be the exact number of
>applicants and the exact tags
>issued at any given point
>in time, and the exact
>number of unsuccessful folks complaining
>about the drawing process.

***Yes, there will always be people complaining, as that's just human nature!

>With that said, Points are the
>MOST fair and reward those
>who are dedicated and will
>re-reward those who jump back
>into the game once they
>draw (Sheep and moose excluded,
>of course).

***Points may eventually reward a person who keeps applying, but if the stats keep going the way they are then they will end up just like the sheep and moose draws that you so aptly excluded from your "PPs are most fair" statement! Why, if you make that statement about fairness, would you have to exempt certain animals? You certainly know that it's getting so that many species of animals won't be drawn once in a life in the top tier units and possibly even mid tier ones by a vast majority of people that are dedicated applicants. It's just the way it is with more people applying for some resources that are static, if not on a downward spiral. It would be nice if people would just be happy like I am to get out and enjoy the outdoors even when they don't have or cant draw a tag. However, it seems like in our present society that the upcoming generations have lost sight of the real things in life and I do have to blame some, but not all, of that on those in my age group. I learned at a very early age that it isn't the killing that matters, but just getting out there and having fun with friends and family. Now it seems like many parents have to get Johnny the best tag in the state or life sucks and that's a damn shame!

>There are always random tags to
>be drawn and a guy
>is foolish to sit around
>and whine about points and
>say random is only fair
>and then never apply when
>he might draw a random
>tag even with points in
>play.

***Speaking just for myself, I would do that if I wanted to at least have a chance at hunting antelope, for example. However, being in the latter stages of my hunting lifetime and having taken as much as I have and am happy with that, I've chosen to do as I mentioned earlier. I truthfully would probably not buy a lot of tags even if they were OTC due to my particular circumstances and the number of years I've been able to have out there.


>But hey, whining and complaining is
>why MM is here for
>some guys.
>
>I don't get it!
>
>Zeke
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
Re-read my post you contrary old coot! I excluded them only because it doesn't make sense to jump back in on those two critters once drawn but it does make sense on everything else.

We all can only hope that all those folk who claim they're dropping out after the first round, actually do so. It'll make drawing subsequent tags quite a bit easier

Zeke
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
and Mike,
There will be animals which a guy will NEVER draw regardless of the draw system. Some guys just want to stomp their feet and expect a tag. It just won't be so EVER.
That's life, get used to it boys!
Zeke

You and I both know that the guys who whine the most are the one who never actually apply! They'd rather just whine!
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-16 AT 01:27PM (MST)[p]>Re-read my post you contrary old
>coot! I excluded them only
>because it doesn't make sense
>to jump back in on
>those two critters once drawn
>but it does make sense
>on everything else.
>
>We all can only hope that
>all those folk who claim
>they're dropping out after the
>first round, actually do so.
>It'll make drawing subsequent tags
>quite a bit easier
>
>Zeke

LOL at another old coot you old geezer, LOL! If you mean jump back in for a unit that you can draw easily within a year or two then that makes sense. I think the biggest whiners are the ones that think they should be able to draw the premo tags on a fairly frequent basis when they'll probably never draw them once in two or three lifetimes! Why can't they just be satisfied with a low or mid tier unit that they might be able to hunt every 3 or 4 years along with OTC or "gimme" tags in other areas just to get out and enjoy?! Such is is the case with our present "instant gratification" society!
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>I hoped you'd like the old
>coot comment.
>
>One old coot to another! LOL
>
>
>Zeke


Yep; one of these days us "old coots" are going to have to get together for some fun in the sun or whatver comes about and we'll agree ahead of time that anything SFW will not be spoken the entire time, LOL! Cheers my old coot friend!
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>***It stands to reason IF people
>with a higher number of
>PPs put in for the
>tag with those PPs, but
>if that isn't the case
>the PPs required may stay
>static or decrease. Yes,
>odds will certainly a change
>with more applicants or less
>tags, but the change is
>definitely affected by how many
>PPs people have that apply
>in the NR draws.
>That is where people use
>the term "creep" whether it
>may be appropriate or not.
> The end result is
>that the odds go up
>or down based on how
>many people apply at higher
>PP levels, so I have
>to disagree that people don't
>have a clue just because
>of the word use to
>describe what's happening.

10 permits are offered to 100 max point holders with 4 pts. Ten draw tags and the next year 10 permits are offered to 90 max point holders with 5 pts. Point creep...

>***No offense taken, but mathematically everyone
>has the same chance even
>if one person draws every
>year and another never does.

Not quite. Unknown to many is the fact that there is no such thing as a completely unbiased computer program. And every year the same thing is used to enter each applicant in the draw; the sportsman's ID #.


>***True and why along with that
>random system it would give
>them even a better chance
>every year even if they
>never get the tag!

Only for two years in a 3 year wait period, then the previous tag holders are back in. Waiting periods don't work. They just stop the successful applicants from drawing in a row.


>***That sounds like a pretty fair
>way to set up a
>system from scratch that I
>could go along with.
>If there is a push
>in Wyoming for a resident
>PP system, is that what
>you would lobby for if
>it came down to having
>one for residents?

That's what I have always supported in the past; 50/50. All the last three PP bills were that ratio.


>Nothing will ever make everyone happy
>and that's just the way
>life is!

Yep, that's a fact...
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
Let me be clear a Random draw is better than a bad points system. I'm not a fan of the current Wyoming preference pt system. The biggest reason is I think its hard on first time hunters. This is not because I think youth hunters should be immediately awarded the better LE tags from the draw. I just think it has a tendency to put them to far behind.
I'm a advocate of a Squared bonus pts system that progressively rewards applicants based on the years they apply. This in concert with a waiting period would greatly help Wyoming residents. The waiting period has a two pronged effect.

First, it removes the previously successful applicants from the draw addressing the root cause of bad odds. (I admit it doesn't have a huge effect on odds)
Second, it puts the successful applicants 3 years further behind those who haven't drawn. So those who draw a elk tag would be out for 3 yrs after the draw. When they go back in the draw they are 4years in pts behind those who haven't yet drawn. With a squared pts system those who drew the 1st year are in the hat once & the guys who haven't drawn yet are in the draw 17times.

I would conduct the first draw for all license types with pts and then conduct the second draw with no points to deal with all the leftover tags.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-16 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]I also think that the draw should be in this order
Sheep
Moose
Mountain goat,
Bison
Elk
Deer
Antelope
If you draw a le Sheep tag your not eligible for any other LE tags (not stopping you for General tags)
If you draw a moose your not eligible for any other tags below that on the list.
This would continue clear down to removing those who are successful for deer not being able to draw a antelope tag.
A second draw would deal with all leftover permits.
If you get a point system you would still be allow to gain the pt. You just wouldn't be allowed two LE tags in any given year.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-16 AT 10:53PM (MST)[p]>Let me be clear a Random
>draw is better than a
>bad points system. I'm
>not a fan of the
>current Wyoming preference pt system.
> The biggest reason is
>I think its hard on
>first time hunters. This
>is not because I think
>youth hunters should be immediately
>awarded the better LE tags
>from the draw. I
>just think it has a
>tendency to put them to
>far behind.
> I'm a advocate of
>a Squared bonus pts system
>that progressively rewards applicants based
>on the years they apply.
> This in concert with
>a waiting period would greatly
>help Wyoming residents. The
>waiting period has a two
>pronged effect.
>
>First, it removes the previously successful
>applicants from the draw addressing
>the root cause of bad
>odds. (I admit it
>doesn't have a huge effect
>on odds)
>Second, it puts the successful applicants
>3 years further behind those
>who haven't drawn. So
>those who draw a elk
>tag would be out for
>3 yrs after the draw.
> When they go back
>in the draw they are
>4years in pts behind those
>who haven't yet drawn. With
>a squared pts system those
>who drew the 1st year
>are in the hat once
>& the guys who haven't
>drawn yet are in the
>draw 17times.
>
>I would conduct the first draw
>for all license types with
>pts and then conduct the
>second draw with no points
>to deal with all the
>leftover tags.

That's the main problem with any PP system if a person isn't in it from it's inception if they only want to draw a top unit, rather than low to mid tier ones. I don't have any problem at all with your ideas and it sounds like they might take care of a lot of the various problems of a regular PP system. I'd be interested in what Jeff has to say on his thoughts on what you mentioned or anything else besides what he already posted. It does really irk me that so many people want their kids to get premo tags like they won't continue to hunt if they cant get the biggest and best animal out there! If that is the case it's their fault for not teaching the kids the real reasons we go out hunting.
 

Togwotee

Long Time Member
Messages
5,239
It took me until I was 53 to draw a sheep tag. if it takes a 12 year old kid 40 years to draw he still beat me so I don't feel sorry for them . if it takes him 50 years then that's what it takes.

The point system rewards perseverance and dedication. that used to be what drove America until the entitlement mentality took over.















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>It took me until I
>was 53 to draw a
>sheep tag. if it
>takes a 12 year old
>kid 40 years to draw
>he still beat me
>so I don't feel sorry
>for them . if
>it takes him 50 years
>then that's what it takes.
>
>
>The point system rewards perseverance and
>dedication. that used to be
>what drove America until
>the entitlement mentality took over.


You sure hit the nail on the head with that last sentence pardner! Now it's instant gratification for these younguns or the world is going to end in their minds.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
With 75/25 PP in Wyoming, resident applicants are drawing bull moose tags with as few as 9 points and many areas in the mid to low teens for a bull tag. Top point holders in 2016 had 21 points. Tell me how the system isn't working? Those that drew tags in the beginning of the point system for moose are now getting their second tag!

The simple truth is that youth are not left behind. One year, the resident PP bill even allowed youth to party with immediate family WITHOUT regard to the youth's points and that still wasn't good enough.(I don't agree with that, by the way)

Again, IMO the split random 50/50 would be best for elk, deer & antelope. The statistics prove a more even distribution and fewer people left behind than a straight random draw. That includes youth and every applicant has a legitimate chance to draw a tag. Those dedicated applicants will get their tag in most areas, depending on the odds. Camping out in the very hardest areas to draw areas has no guarantee with ANY draw system.

But I won't hold my breath on a resident PP system happening too soon. As long as those that hate it, like a phony MMer on here who had his church congregation, most who didn't even hunt, send emails to legislators, the chances are slim it will pass.
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
>With 75/25 PP in Wyoming, resident
>applicants are drawing bull moose
>tags with as few as
>9 points and many areas
>in the mid to low
>teens for a bull tag.
>Top point holders in 2016
>had 21 points. Tell me
>how the system isn't working?
>Those that drew tags in
>the beginning of the point
>system for moose are now
>getting their second tag!
>
>The simple truth is that youth
>are not left behind. One
>year, the resident PP bill
>even allowed youth to party
>with immediate family WITHOUT regard
>to the youth's points and
>that still wasn't good enough.(I
>don't agree with that, by
>the way)
>
>Again, IMO the split random 50/50
>would be best for elk,
>deer & antelope. The statistics
>prove a more even distribution
>and fewer people left behind
>than a straight random draw.
>That includes youth and every
>applicant has a legitimate chance
>to draw a tag. Those
>dedicated applicants will get their
>tag in most areas, depending
>on the odds. Camping out
>in the very hardest areas
>to draw areas has no
>guarantee with ANY draw system.
>
>
>But I won't hold my breath
>on a resident PP system
>happening too soon. As long
>as those that hate it,
>like a phony MMer on
>here who had his church
>congregation, most who didn't even
>hunt, send emails to legislators,
>the chances are slim it
>will pass.

+1
I again have to agree with everything you said, Jeff.

While some might feel the youth or first-timers are being left behind, the system simply works and there are plenty of hunts that require little or no points to hunt.

I also agree about the entitlement attitudes and they're being perpetuated by some of the parents. Jr doesn't need an 80 incher for HIS ego, It's for DAD'S ego!!!!

I'm starting over on a few critters and I do NOT feel left behind. I'll be chasing around Wyoming again before you know it.

Thanks Wyoming for the opportunities!

Zeke
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
I agree that youth need not worry about the best tags in the state.
The last time preference points legislation was introduced it was accompanied a clause that stated if the guardian drew a permit in the LE draw the youth dependent automatically got a tag (or something to that effect). For this reason I was vocally opposed to the last preference pt bill.

My argument is if were introducing a pts system why don't we introduce the best points system available and at the same time implement some ideas that actually have a positive effect on draw odds.
 

nontypical

Long Time Member
Messages
3,329
What about the old guys? A 14-yr old has 50-60 years ahead of him to hunt! Special youth draws are a joke in Wyoming. Kids can hunt deer, elk, mtn lion, bear, birds, small game, migratory birds, coyotes, etc, etc, etc. I contend that the OLD GUYS that only have a few years left to hunt get the advantage. How about a special over 60 draw pool??!! :)

My last LQ deer tag was 2000. My last( and only) LQ elk tag was 27 years ago. Meanwhile, I know plenty of folks half my age that have drawn multiple tags for multiple species.

At my age, a point system would probably never work for me anyway. I'd have to be in the max category with more tags available than applicants. That's the way my luck seems to run.

Whining? Yeah, I guess so. All my quality hunts are in other states nowdays. Wyoming's random draw system BLOWS.

This has been discussed AD NAUSEUM. Never going to happen in Wyoming. The lucky few that draw regularly seem to have the loudest voice.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
JM77,

I questioned your moose numbers so I had to go to Gohunt & look for myself. Turns out your correct. Do you think your under estimating the importance of the 5 yr waiting period?
I would prefer a squared bonus system, 5 yr waiting periods for hunts with <20% draw odds (for 5 consecutive years), or a ladder draw like I mentioned above.
I could probably live with a 50/50 split and preferably a waiting period.
We ought to get a group together (off MM) and get some details worked out and a plan and have something for the next legislation session. I don't know how the legislative process works but I have some experience organizing sportsmen.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>JM77,
>
>I questioned your moose numbers so
>I had to go to
>Gohunt & look for myself.
> Turns out your correct.
> Do you think your
>under estimating the importance of
>the 5 yr waiting period?
>
>I would prefer a squared bonus
>system, 5 yr waiting periods
>for hunts with <20% draw
>odds (for 5 consecutive years),
>or a ladder draw like
>I mentioned above.
>I could probably live with a
>50/50 split and preferably a
>waiting period.
>We ought to get a group
>together (off MM) and get
>some details worked out and
>a plan and have something
>for the next legislation session.
> I don't know how
>the legislative process works but
>I have some experience organizing
>sportsmen.

There is no doubt that the 5 year waiting period on moose and sheep help keep the process moving. Attrition most likely has more to do with it though. Those with fewer than max points tend to drop out at a faster rate based on numbers of points held.

Any systems with complicated requirements will most likely not stand much of a chance. A 5 year WP on areas with 20% or less odds is that kind of system. Do you allow someone who just drew a hard tag to apply in an easier area the next year? Also, keeping track of the areas draw odds could compound problems as they change every year.

It is also highly doubtful, with a PP system already in place, that bonus points could succeed. However, I would rather see squared bonus points, than no points at all.

I wouldn't be surprised that a PP bill will show up in the next session. It depends a lot on who sponsors it and how they write it for it to succeed. I do agree that sportsman should get together and try to come to some consensus to have any hope on success.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
So lets ask for 5 year wait for all permits (except reduced price cow/calf). Then on your second choice no waiting period restriction.
For example: If you were on your 5 waiting period for antelope your first choice box would be greyed out but you would be able to enter a second choice to draw a antelope tag with that would otherwise become a leftover tag.
Another example would be if your on a waiting period for elk. Your first choice would be greyed out but you would be able to apply for a 97 type 1 as your second choice (there are always leftovers for this HA).
None of the tags with odds <75% are making it through past every ones 1st choice so it would take the complexity out of the waiting period
Maybe 5 years is a little extreme for antelope. I'd say 3 on antelope & 5 on LE deer & elk.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>The shine will come off that
>proposal the first year you're
>on the wait period.


You can sure make your point without saying many words Bob, LOL!
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
I will gladly wait my turn after I draw a tag. That's the beautiful thing about Wyoming is the general season can be as good as the LQ stuff.
With the top deer & elk units sporting the same worst odds as moose tags 5 years isn't too much to ask.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
The problem with a 5 year wait period, or even a three year, is that with many elk, deer, and antelope areas, after 2, 3, or 4 years of the system, those areas would run out of 1st choice applicants. This is where the difference shows comparing these species with moose and sheep. There are no moose or sheep areas with higher draw odds, hence none run out of applicants with the 5 year wait.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
that's why having no first choice option if your on a waiting period works. My thought with a point system is if all the LE hunt areas in were 25-35% draw odds we wouldn't need any point system. The need for a point system lies in the fact that a large % of the Wyoming LE tags are <8% odds.
A straight preference point system just doesn't do anything to improve odds. Throw the waiting period in and we really start tackling root causes. It could be similar to moose odds in the harder to draw areas. Without the waiting period it will make the harder to draw tags once in a lifetime. Which I guess would be ok because at least I would get one tag in my life.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
For the record I drew a deer tag this year that had <4% odds and although its been well over a decade since my last LE tag I didn't put in for 4 or so years because I've been hunting general.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>that's why having no first choice
>option if your on a
>waiting period works. My
>thought with a point system
>is if all the LE
>hunt areas in were 25-35%
>draw odds we wouldn't need
>any point system. The
>need for a point system
>lies in the fact that
>a large % of the
>Wyoming LE tags are <8%
>odds.
>A straight preference point system just
>doesn't do anything to improve
>odds. Throw the waiting period
>in and we really start
>tackling root causes. It
>could be similar to moose
>odds in the harder to
>draw areas. Without the waiting
>period it will make the
>harder to draw tags once
>in a lifetime. Which
>I guess would be ok
>because at least I would
>get one tag in my
>life.

Interesting take Eric, but the wait on first choice only helps the higher and middle odds areas, but only changes the tough draws a few percentage points. Plus there would be many against the waiting period, I think more than for points. I have been told of some crazy bills for the next session pertaining to license allocation. We need to be vigilante or some crazy things could happen.
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
Messages
1,385
LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-16 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]A big point to consider with starting any PP system or waiting period is the difficulty of un-ringing that bell. A lot can happen to herds in 20 years. Those unlimited Gen deer tags that so many of us take for granted could easily be a thing of the past. When a backup plan like a general tag is gone, waiting 5 years with absolutely no hope of hunting, not even a random draw chance, looks like an eternity. This level of desperation causes people to make foolish choices. Look no further than Utah and it EXPO tag cluster-F. Once you go down a PP path you are largely stuck with it. Any attempt to stop it is met with cries of selfishness, greed, wait your turn, etc. Not saying it has to go down that path but it sure can.

My personal take is why start a PP system when you have the fall back of a general tag. I get it for Moose and Sheep but see no need with deer, elk and antelope.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>A big point to consider with
>starting any PP system or
>waiting period is the difficulty
>of un-ringing that bell.
>A lot can happen to
>herds in 20 years.
>Those unlimited Gen deer tags
>that so many of us
>take for granted could easily
>be a thing of the
>past. When a backup
>plan like a general tag
>is gone, waiting 5 years
>with absolutely no hope of
>hunting, not even a random
>draw chance, looks like an
>eternity. This level of
>desperation causes people to make
>foolish choices. Look no
>further than Utah and it
>EXPO tag cluster-F. Once
>you go down a PP
>path you are largely stuck
>with it. Any attempt
>to stop it is met
>with cries of selfishness, greed,
>wait your turn, etc.
>Not saying it has to
>go down that path but
>it sure can.
>
>My personal take is why start
>a PP system when you
>have the fall back of
>a general tag. I
>get it for Moose and
>Sheep but see no need
>with deer, elk and antelope.
>

Very good points mulecreek when you are talking about deer, elk, and antelope the way things are set up with good alternatives to difficult to draw tags for the resident hunter.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>My personal take is why start
>a PP system when you
>have the fall back of
>a general tag. I
>get it for Moose and
>Sheep but see no need
>with deer, elk and antelope.

I have heard this comment more than a few times; "You can always hunt general". True, and I do, but there are many reasons for wanting that LQ experience.

However, because I know those of you reading and commenting here are 'in the know', I won't bore you with the reasons, like quality hunting, more bigger bucks and bulls, more bucks and bulls, hunting closer to home, less hunter density and specifically the chance to have a OIL hunt. You know all this...
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>
>>My personal take is why start
>>a PP system when you
>>have the fall back of
>>a general tag. I
>>get it for Moose and
>>Sheep but see no need
>>with deer, elk and antelope.
>
>I have heard this comment more
>than a few times; "You
>can always hunt general". True,
>and I do, but there
>are many reasons for wanting
>that LQ experience.
>
> However, because I know those
>of you reading and commenting
>here are 'in the know',
>I won't bore you with
>the reasons, like quality hunting,
>more bigger bucks and bulls,
>more bucks and bulls, hunting
>closer to home, less hunter
>density and specifically the chance
>to have a OIL hunt.
>You know all this...

That line about not boring us with the reason was a good one Jeff, LOL! I'd love to hunt LQ units as much as possible, but it is nice to have that "fall back on general tag" like I have this year after burning my 6PPs last year on Region G.
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
I know this will upset a few.....but here it goes. Wyoming needs to cut NR tags to a minimum of 10%. I like wyoming just the way it is with NO pp. Just my 2 cents.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>I know this will upset a
>few.....but here it goes. Wyoming
>needs to cut NR tags
>to a minimum of 10%.
>I like wyoming just the
>way it is with NO
>pp. Just my 2 cents.
>


It would surely upset NRs, but if it happens it would be about what all the other states do. How about a comment on your feelings regarding cutting some of the units out that residents can hunt on a general tag where there are too many hunters like in G and H? Would you be in favor of that and going LQ with a couple of them?
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,250
Yea cut the guy out who's paying YOUR bills that will help. Replace Joe from Co who's pay $600 for a tag and give it to BOB in Lander for $30.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-16 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]I second that.

-90/10 split. End the requirement that there has to be 5 tags in a HA because we have to be able to give NR 2. If there isn't 5 permits nonresidents should get 0. If there is between 5-10 permits NR get 1. (I don't hate non residents I just get tired of the other western states that I like to hunt giving a <10% of their tags to Nonresidents).

-End the party loophole that allows the G&F to round up if a party draws more tags than is left in the draw. Parties should be capped at 2.

90/10 just for Limited quota so save your "bankrupt the G&F arguments". Most residents will gladly pay for better odds.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
I would have to disagree with your statement that most residents will gladly pay for better odds. The last couple times the Legislature had bills before it to go to 90/10 it failed. They wouldn't even pass the stand alone one to raise NR fees and the one strictly involving the rather insignificant fee increase for residents also didn't make it out of committee. Your statement sounds good until it's time to pay the Piper and then the residents come out of the woodwork hollering that a $5 or $10 increase per license will cause them and their families to quit hunting. Then they go out and blow a lot more than that for one night out at a restaurant and movie!
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,222
I'd hate to see the NR splits changed since I've enjoyed Wyoming and our family has more to come, hopefully. With that said, I don't blame the residents at all for feeling the way they do about the split!

I'm from Utah and have tried to be an advocate for the NR hunter because we're all NR hunters everywhere except one State! Our residents are just about as selfish as everywhere else and I wish it wasn't so.

If I were King, I'd have guaranteed 20% NR tags across the board in every State in the west. None of this "up to" crap like in some of the States.

God help us all to make the right choices,
Zeke
 

TheDudeAbides

Member
Messages
89
100% behind making a points system for Antelope. There are a lot of grumblings in SW Wyoming over wanting to go to a point system.

I do not know how I feel about Elk. I feel like Unit 7 hunters would benefit a lot from it. Some other units would benefit a lot from the addition of a points system. There are some Units like 31 and 100 that would receive a bulk of the applicants and other units would open up for the first few years before the dust settles. I do know how it would work in the long run for elk in the state.

I feel like deer would be better left in a lottery. There were 3,000 people that applied for 102. No system will fix that. 141, 101, 87 would all still suck with a points system. I do believe that a points system for deer would be useless with only a handful of draw units available for the species.
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-16 AT 09:54PM (MST)[p]

A pp system for antelope because you didn't get your tag? Be careful for what you ask for. Sure you will get the tag you want on the pp system but after you draw you will be behind the game, and it will take years for another.
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
Top, I would be OK with it if it was best for the wildlife. The thing about H and G is not ever resident has the desire to hunt there. As you know it's rough country and there are a lot of residence who stay away because of it. I apply for 5 western states and none have the NR allocation like wyoming. People whine when they hear wyoming residence talk about 90/10 split, but are perfectly happy in their own state when it's 90/10. You sure don't hear those same people fighting for more NR tags in their own state now do ya. And as I have said for years... I will pay whatever it takes for a tag in Wyoming. The "we pay the fish and game salary" is getting old. Let's just see how many are left over if they raise the resident fees.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-16 AT 09:50PM (MST)[p]First, I support 90/10 for moose, sheep, goat and bison; the rest can stay the same.

There has been a lot of time spent on figuring the cost of changing to 90/10 and believe me when I say it is not what you all(mostly Topgun) are saying it is. Moose, sheep, goat & bison is around $169,000. That can be easily made up.

There is actually almost NO difference with elk because of the mandated 7250 tags. Six percent less LQ NR tags would be converted to general. The small difference comes from the decrease of type 6&7 additional cow/calf, although still many of those would be sold to NR after they were undersubscribed by residents.

Because NR get a big portion of leftover antelope tags, once again not a big amount to overcome. Deer could be the biggest hurdle, but still could be managed.

No matter how many times license fee increases were shot down, I know residents would gladly pay more for 90/10.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
" Sure you will
>get the tag you want
>on the pp system but
>after you draw will be
>behind do the game, and
>it will take years for
>another. "

Yep, that's the whole idea!
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-16 AT 11:00PM (MST)[p]What's the name of this post? "Antelope point creep". Well, that's exactly what will happen when/ if there is a resident pp system.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
Is this now a "cut down Topgun" thread Jeff, LOL?! I'm beginning to think BuzzH got into your head a little too much with his new math and these statements that cutting NR tags won't be that big of a deal money wise. It's rather ironic that in one thread we'd be talking about this and he'd say what you just posted and then in another thread he'd be bitching that the residents cry and don't want to pay more to take up the slack even when they are asked to fork over a measily $5 to $7 more for a tag! No matter how you cut it, the NRs put in a huge amount of money into the G&F coffers and to ask them to keep putting in that big money, but to cut a huge percentage of the tags to only leftovers and general stuff sucks IMHO. Yea, people will probably keep on keepin on, but with the huge price differential between a resident tag and what NRs pay it seems like we should get a little break and at least be in for a better share of the LQ tags. Just because all the other states have those lower percentages for NRs doesn't mean Wyoming has to follow suit. I can understand some residents wanting a better shot at the premo tags, but even if they don't draw one very often I have to go back to what BuzzH is always saying and that is a Wyoming resident still has so many fantastic opportunities to hunt and fill so many different tags at such low prices that they really don't know how good they have it! Have a good holiday weekend Jeff and everyone else too!
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
Top, the same could be said for NR. They can pick up a tag on the leftover, which gives them plenty of opportunities. And, what other state gives out region wide general tags to NR? The state also needs to STOP allowing NR to apply/draw in January/February for elk. That's total BS.
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-16 AT 10:30AM (MST)[p]>Top, the same could be said
>for NR. They can pick
>up a tag on the
>leftover, which gives them plenty
>of opportunities. And, what other
>state gives out region wide
>general tags to NR? The
>state also needs to STOP
>allowing NR to apply/draw in
>January/February for elk. That's total
>BS.


I would not argue your first statement at all because I've always said that Wyoming is the best state there is for NR opportunity and I call it my "second home" because I spend most of the Fall there every year and will again this year! I guess I would say it would be realistic to have a 90/10 split on the animals Jeff mentioned and maybe even the same on the LQ units for deer, elk, and antelope that are the real hard ones to draw. I would hope that it wouldn't go that way on general tags, but if it does the NRs will just have to live with it and be happy for what we have because it could be 0! I also agree with your last comment regarding the early time frame for NR applications and the draw for elk. I think it's not only BS, but it's been shown that the G&F is violating their own statute doing it illegally before the Final Regulations are signed off by the Commission. My guess is that it will be changed as early as next year since it was brought to the forefront this year as being illegal.
 

TheDudeAbides

Member
Messages
89
No, I drew 3 antelope tags. (Buck and 2 Does)

I was just saying it would be nice, because you could cycle residents through the game faster with it.
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
You could cycle the residence through the first cycle.....but after that you will see nothing but.....you guessed it, point creep. It sure is nice knowing you could draw every year you apply. If you got your tags why would you ever want to go to a pp system? Do you even know what a pp system does after several years? Tell you what. Apply for Colorado for about 10 years then come back and tell us how great the pp system is. Again, be careful for what you wish for. Once wyoming goes to pp there is no turning back.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>You could cycle the residence through
>the first cycle.....but after that
>you will see nothing but.....you
>guessed it, point creep. It
>sure is nice knowing you
>could draw every year you
>apply. If you got your
>tags why would you ever
>want to go to a
>pp system? Do you even
>know what a pp system
>does after several years? Tell
>you what. Apply for Colorado
>for about 10 years then
>come back and tell us
>how great the pp system
>is. Again, be careful for
>what you wish for. Once
>wyoming goes to pp there
>is no turning back.

GVH

We don't agree on this one, but that's ok. I have never heard you reference the 50/50 random/PP system. Applicants have a realistic chance every year, with an advantage of preference to those who don't draw.

You always reference point systems like it is 100% point and not a split system.

We should discuss this sometime, maybe when I stop by?

Jeff
 

BigChiefJ

Active Member
Messages
418
Doesn't the early NR elk draw sometimes benefit residents because the tag quota increases and the NRs have already drawn? Therefore the increased quota goes to residents.

I personally like the early elk draw because it lets me plan my whole year of applications if I get an elk tag.

I think random draw is the way to go, but that's just my opinion.
 

feduptwo

Active Member
Messages
501
grosventrehunter,

Read the first part of this post. Points creep is a term created by people who want a catchy phrase for not enough tags or to many applicants or a combo of both.
I agree that any points system should also include measures that actually help draw odds.
90/10 split
waiting period
staggered draw
Any or all of these with a point system. Preferably a Squared bonus system would help odds and straighten out the order that tags are drawn.
I've crunched the numbers a points system would have be a very positive effect for antelope for residents since there are so many antelope units that are 25-50% odds.
 

TheDudeAbides

Member
Messages
89
If Wyoming went to a 100% PP system, it would be more comparable to the Utah general season deer draw than the Colorado draw.

There is only one unit in Utah General Season deer that takes more than 3 points for residents to draw, because of the availability of tags.

There are a few types of systems that could be implemented to help.

A bonus point system would just give residents an additional chance every year they are not successful on their first choice.

A bonus point squared system which is the same as the bonus point system, but the points are squared.

A preference point system where the top point holders get all of the tags.

A combo system preference point system.

A 75/25 - This would put people through the points system and still allow for people to draw with less points every year.

A 50/50 - This would not put people through the system as fast, but assures that a tag will be drawn at some point.

A 25/75 - This will satisfy the call for points while allowing for youth to not get behind the ball.
 

TheDudeAbides

Member
Messages
89
No, more commonly the NR elk draw works opposite of that

The tag quotas are not set for the units until later in the year. They could give out a larger percentage of LQ permits in multiple units, which adversely affects the resident draw.

In the NR game each have their quirks.

I hate Utah the most. Apply in February, don't find out if you drew until May, and you have no idea how many permits each unit has until the odds come out. It is a guessing game to how many permits will be available in the unit that you applied for, so you have to go by history.

States with up to 10% I hate the second most.
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
Messages
1,385
"I have heard this comment more than a few times; "You can always hunt general". True, and I do, but there are many reasons for wanting that LQ experience.

However, because I know those of you reading and commenting here are 'in the know', I won't bore you with the reasons, like quality hunting, more bigger bucks and bulls, more bucks and bulls, hunting closer to home, less hunter density and specifically the chance to have a OIL hunt. You know all this..."

Jeff,

I cant recall a hunt in Wyoming whether it was a gen tag or a LQ tag for me that was not a quality hunt. I am confident that most LQ units for elk have better chances at larger bulls than the Gen areas, not sure I would say the same for deer. But for me personally I have never had a problem finding a bull or a buck in the general areas that I was not completely satisfied with. I have also never had a problem finding a completely satisfying level of solitude while hunting the general areas that I do. I get that these may all be influences for you but that may not be the case for others. It is all a matter of perspective.

I get that you are "in the know", so I wont bore you with the specifics. But the fact of the matter is lots of options exist for the hunter looking for a quality hunt, bigger bucks and bulls, more bucks and bulls, less hunter density and specifically a OIL hunt whether Wyo puts a PP system in place for residents or not, but you already know this...
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>Jeff,
>
>I cant recall a hunt in
>Wyoming whether it was a
>gen tag or a LQ
>tag for me that was
>not a quality hunt.
>I am confident that most
>LQ units for elk have
>better chances at larger bulls
>than the Gen areas, not
>sure I would say the
>same for deer. But
>for me personally I have
>never had a problem finding
>a bull or a buck
>in the general areas that
>I was not completely satisfied
>with. I have also
>never had a problem finding
>a completely satisfying level of
>solitude while hunting the general
>areas that I do.
>I get that these may
>all be influences for you
>but that may not be
>the case for others.
>It is all a matter
>of perspective.
>
>I get that you are "in
>the know", so I wont
>bore you with the specifics.
> But the fact of
>the matter is lots of
>options exist for the hunter
>looking for a quality hunt,
>bigger bucks and bulls, more
>bucks and bulls, less hunter
>density and specifically a OIL
>hunt whether Wyo puts a
>PP system in place for
>residents or not, but you
>already know this...

What a pointless argument Steve, because no matter if Joe Blow or you think one can get a quality hunt in a general area, and you sure as heck can, it doesn't change the fact that more resident hunters in Wyoming choose to apply for LQ areas, than just buy a general tag. You can keep repeating that quality hunts exist in general areas until you're blue in the face Steve, and that doesn't change the demand for LQ tags.

I certainly don't speak for the more than half of resident hunters that want points, but one thing is clear; there is a constant request for resident PP for elk, deer & antelope. Someday there will be change. I advocate for middle ground on this, because I feel it's better than we have now. Plain and simple, a 50/50 random/PP system.
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
Messages
1,385
LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-16 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p]>What a pointless argument Steve, because
>no matter if Joe Blow
>or you think one can
>get a quality hunt in
>a general area, and you
>sure as heck can, it
>doesn't change the fact that
>more resident hunters in Wyoming
>choose to apply for LQ
>areas, than just buy a
>general tag. You can keep
>repeating that quality hunts exist
>in general areas until you're
>blue in the face Steve,
>and that doesn't change the
>demand for LQ tags.
>
> I certainly don't speak for
>the more than half of
>resident hunters that want points,
>but one thing is clear;
>there is a constant request
>for resident PP for elk,
>deer & antelope. Someday there
>will be change. I advocate
>for middle ground on this,
>because I feel it's better
>than we have now. Plain
>and simple, a 50/50 random/PP
>system.

I agree with almost everything you said in this reply, except my argument being pointless. ;)

There is a constant request by some that want PP. I also think that at some point one will exist for residents. I just don't see the need for one as things exist today. Most likely something will change and a PP system will, at that point become, a reasonable choice. I just don't think we have hit that point. And I would be real careful about starting a system.

I would also think you would agree that the desire from many of those that want a resident PP system, not all but many, is simply because they think their hunt will be easier. Trust me I know that is the biggest reason so many from RS put in for 102. There is nothing, as of today, that should push a person to want a 102 tag over a Gen deer tag, but damn near the entire town puts in for it. Why? Because it is an easy, convenient hunt for them. I happen to think that is shortsighted and upending a system that in my opinion works great, so that a few can have an easier hunt is not a valid reason.

I am equally as confident that 10 years after Wyo gets a resident PP system there will start a constant request to get rid of it.
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
Mulecreek, what's your opinion on 90/10 resident/nr split for elk,deer, and antelope? If it only increases the resident odds by 3% I'm happy with that.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>Everyone, please go to k2radio and
>take the preference point poll.
>Kind of curious who started
>this poll.


Brian Scott did...
 

grosventrehunter

Very Active Member
Messages
1,341
LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-16 AT 10:50PM (MST)[p]Maybe the next poll should read, "90/10 resident/non-resident split" for elk,deer and antelope. Let's get it all done in one year. With the additional tags we could cycle through more often. I live in a fantasy land, GnF won't give their cash cow up anytime soon.
 

mulecreek

Very Active Member
Messages
1,385
>Mulecreek, what's your opinion on 90/10
>resident/nr split for elk,deer, and
>antelope? If it only increases
>the resident odds by 3%
>I'm happy with that.


I would leave elk/deer/antelope as it is. Lots of options for the resident hunter in Wyoming for all three species. If the General tags for deer and elk ever went away then I would support a change for those two species, but not now. Antelope is getting close but still, for a few hour drive no matter where you live in Wyo, the resident hunter can find a place to hunt antelope.

I completely support and advocate for a resident tag fee increase regardless of any allocation change. To go even further I think the entire G&F funding model should be changed. I have been tinkering with the idea that tag fees should be based on the actual cost of management of each individual species divided by the expected number of tags. Then a hunting license or stamp would be required and priced sufficient to cover the G&A costs and the cost associated with management of non-game species. I think this would give the average person a better understanding of what it really costs to have the hunting and fishing we have. Those of us that want to hunt sheep need to understand the real cost of doing so. Those that want to hunt the pen-raised pheasants released in Wyoming should understand that they are expensive. Don't even get me started on the free-loading fishermen in Wyoming. Just a thought and nothing more.
 

WillPower

Active Member
Messages
231
Good stuff on this thread, totally explains how I drew Unit 61 as a NR with only 6 points, actually son had 8, so guess we had 7 averaged NR points. Sure hope its a decent hunt this year.

WP

"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"
 

ClearCreek

Active Member
Messages
222
>>
>Don't even get me started
>on the free-loading fishermen in
>Wyoming. Just a thought
>and nothing more.


Mulecreek:

Fishing license dollars + Federal Aid from excise taxes on fishing equipment that WGFD gets fully fund the Fish Program at WGFD.

Not sure what you mean by "free-loading fishermen".

ClearCreek
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>
>>>
>>Don't even get me started
>>on the free-loading fishermen in
>>Wyoming. Just a thought
>>and nothing more.
>
>
>Mulecreek:
>
>Fishing license dollars + Federal Aid
>from excise taxes on fishing
>equipment that WGFD gets fully
>fund the Fish Program at
>WGFD.
>
>Not sure what you mean by
>"free-loading fishermen".
>
>ClearCreek

Got a link to that info?
 

ClearCreek

Active Member
Messages
222
>>
>>>>
>>>Don't even get me started
>>>on the free-loading fishermen in
>>>Wyoming. Just a thought
>>>and nothing more.
>>
>>
>>Mulecreek:
>>
>>Fishing license dollars + Federal Aid
>>from excise taxes on fishing
>>equipment that WGFD gets fully
>>fund the Fish Program at
>>WGFD.
>>
>>Not sure what you mean by
>>"free-loading fishermen".
>>
>>ClearCreek
>
>Got a link to that info?
>

jm77:

I don't have a link to the info., but I thought that is what was in a brochure the G&F put out a few years ago when they were talking about budget woes. They showed where the income came from and where is was spent. It seems the only programs that took in more money than was spent on those programs was antelope and deer as well as the Fish Management (which just broke even). All others, including elk, bighorn sheep, mtn. goat, etc. actually "lost money".

Do you have info. that shows otherwise?

I thought I kept one of those pamphlets, but can't seem to find it.

ClearCreek
 

jm77

Very Active Member
Messages
2,017
>
>
>>Do you have info. that shows
>>otherwise?
>>
>>I thought I kept one of
>>those pamphlets, but can't seem
>>to find it.
>>
>>ClearCreek
>
>
>Fish is 6 million + in
>the red CC. Steve was
>right, freeloading fisherman.
>
>2014 data shows elk, moose, muley,
>turkey, antelope all make money.
>
>
>
>
>https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/About Us/Commission/WGFD_ANNUALREPORT_2014.p

Thanks to BuzzH for that info. He's on the ball!
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
>>
>>
>>>Do you have info. that shows
>>>otherwise?
>>>
>>>I thought I kept one of
>>>those pamphlets, but can't seem
>>>to find it.
>>>
>>>ClearCreek
>>
>>
>>Fish is 6 million + in
>>the red CC. Steve was
>>right, freeloading fisherman.
>>
>>2014 data shows elk, moose, muley,
>>turkey, antelope all make money.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/About Us/Commission/WGFD_ANNUALREPORT_2014.p
>
>Thanks to BuzzH for that info.
>He's on the ball!


That link is dead Jeff!
 

JakeSwensen

Active Member
Messages
436
>If you want a little better
>odds of drawing push for
>the 90/10 resident/nr split.

I will be asking for this at future g&f meetings!


[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 

2_Point

Very Active Member
Messages
1,288
Just trying to understand who has the entitlement attitude. Is it the kid who sees a lifetime ahead of him or the guy with a 17 year head start? Both feel entitled to get their opportunity.
 

prn

Active Member
Messages
155
Wyoming should go to a 90/10 split just like many of you want.

While we're at it, since we're pushing for "what other states do," all Wyoming residents should be kept from hunting wilderness areas in other states without a guide. After all, we want what's fair. Let's be honest, how could a Wyoming resident possibly be safe in the backcountry of Idaho, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, or Montana?
 

TOPGUN

Long Time Member
Messages
10,639
LAST EDITED ON Jul-10-16 AT 08:40AM (MST)[p]>> df got cut off the
>>end of .pdf
>>
>>https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/About Us/Commission/WGFD_ANNUALREPORT_2014.pdf
>
>
>Bob saves the day! Thanks man

Bob is the man alright. If anyone has a question about any draw in the western states he's the guru, go to guy for the answer!!! The stats for fisheries that is being discussed are way down in the bottom of the report if you scroll down to Page A-29. It definitely is way in the hole every year!
 

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