Antler growth in heat waves

[elkboy32]

I was just thinking about the tremendous antler growth in the west with the heavy spring rain and vegetation growth. The bucks in Idaho are looking great. It looks like we are going to get a pretty good heat spell, at least for our area. Does that slow antler growth at all? If it doesn't rain much more this summer, do you think the bucks and bulls won't finish as well? Just curios on anyones insight.

 

[c3]

I think it's exactly the opposite. There's never a lack of feed this time of year as long as it's not extreme drought. The drier and warmer it is the less energy the critters use to stay warm in their summer coats and the more concentrated the proteins are in the browse.

They lay up under a tree pumping blood through their horns like a radiator when it's hot and dry. This is why all the biggest critters come from units where it's always hot like those in Arizona and southern Utah.

Just my $0.02

Pete

 

[nontypical]

Since the world record nontypical mule deer is from Alberta, I would say that's not the case at all, Pete. Not to mention the world record typical whitetail is from Saskatchewan. I could cite several more examples, but you get the point. That is an interesting statement about pumping blood like a radiator, though. Theory or fact? Just wondering.

If no more rains come before antler growing is done, I think you could definitely see some top end growth suffer. In SW Wy, we haven't gotten any rain now for about a week and a half. The month of May saw more than 3 times the normal amount of rain for Rock Springs and Green River. Even though the countryside is very green, I see places where it is beginning to dry up. Based on late summer and early fall moisture from last year, hopefully the habitat is in good enough condition that more moisture won't matter this summer as far as antler growth is concerned. That's the likely scenario, in my opinion. I have seen top end growth suffer many years due to no midsummer rains...but that was during the many years of drought.

A couple more good rains before the end of July would definitely help the country to stay out of the drought.

 

[c3]

Those are one offs nontypical. Saskatchewan is ranked tenth of recent entries in B&C for whitetails. It's also perfect 2000' elevation alfalfa fields it lived in. Even so it fits the description.

Check out the P&Y records page. It's a good one for seeing the top 10 in each category. https://pope-young.org/records/records.asp

In virtually every case these critters are from hot dry areas with very few exceptions.

As for the radiator effect, it's pretty obvious that it's true. Look at all the high fence bulls they grow. Always down in some hot valley where they sit and pump the radiator the whole growing season. 500's is possible 600" with all the steroids.

Here's a video I did with some buddies a couple years ago. It was taken July 5th after 48 days of not one single drop of rain in central Utah. Look at all the vegetation and the horn growth!
https://vimeo.com/69864670

When you follow around individual elk for years filming and watching them, you can see the correlation between horn growth and the weather. When it's rainy and cold they shut down. When it's hot and dry you can see the horn growth from one day to the next.

Hot and dry equals horn growth, end of story

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Deone]

Must be a lot of schools of thought on antler growth.

I have been told that in hotter weather deer use so much energy keeping their body cool it effects growth. On the flipside, if the weather is cooler they spend less energy keeping their body cool and can use it for antler growth. Cool and wet promotes good nutrition.....

Who knows???

 

[goldhunter]

I tend to believe hot and dry is good for antler growth as long as the range conditions had a good early season. The deer and elk tend to be very inactive during hot periods allowing more nutrients to go to antler growth. And the forage is more nutrient concentrated when dry.

Ranchers always say when the grass gets hard in the late summer and fall the calves really pack on the weight.

 

[Broadside_Shot]

Just put your self in the same situation. When it is Hot and Dry you body struggles to keep up. You are tired and fatigue quicker.

I hike, play baseball, jog, etc. better when it is cooler. When it is to Hot out I don't even have an appetite sometimes.

Plants, Grass and Trees don't grow as well in Hot and Dry Conditions.

Hot and Dry are not good for growth. Your body and animals body don't perform as well in these conditions.

Sorry Pete, I like the thinking outside the box mentality but I can't believe that Hot and Dry conditions are good for growing.

 

[BIGJOHNT]

It's not a heat wave on top of the mountain! I was in lake Powell last week end it was hotter then #ell . My brother in law was at our place on the mountain above 9000 feet. It was warm for up there. But we are talking a high of 80 in the heat of the day. Sunday a thunder storm rolled threw and dropped the temps down to 61. It was in the low fifties in the morning. Just because we are melting down in town. Doesn't mean its that way everywhere.
Its just about the same with water up high. You walk about a hundred yards any directions and you cross a stream. I guess you fellows need to spend some time on the mountain . ;-) I know that's where I am headed !
Oh... and I didn't see any deer at the lake. So the most have moved up.

 

[Zeke]

I think for activities cooler weather is better but I doubt it affects growth.

If we are using ourselves as examples then hotter weather slows me down and I pack on the growth! LOL

My suspicion is that none of us KNOW the answer. We can all make some "educated guess" but more likely it's just "guesses" with very little "educated". (speaking of myself, of course)

Zeke

 

[Zeke]

+1BIGJOHNT
Zeke

 

[c3]

That's ok Jerry. I think you and everyone else should be putting in for the Oregon and Washington coast units and leave the hot dry Henrys, Pauns and Arizona stip tags to me.

We all know that those cool wet climates in the northwest coast grow the biggest horns. Even better yet you should be hunting Sitka AK for those monster bucks they have up there that are genetically identical to our mule deer here

Cheers,
Pete

 

[nontypical]

That desert southwest country( Strip, Henry's, etc) has the best genetics in the world. That has to be taken into account. No harsh winters in that country like we get up here.

I see it every year when the summer stays hot and dry for extended periods. The critters simply don't finish out. Time and again; year in and year out. When we get a wet spring and early summer, the vegetation is better. It's even better in August without rain for a month than it would be if May and June were dry too. Better vegetation in May and June translates to better vegetation in July and August. It's no big secret. Even college educated people see that... like big game biologists. You know the type. The ones that think they know more than us MMer's.

End of story.

 

[swbuckmaster]

soil, minerals, plant, water and genitics all play a roll. The soil contains the minerals. The water at the right time puts the minerals in the plants. I think the desert or areas the bucks grow big have all the right combinations. In the really dry years the bucks or bulls can loose inches so I dont see a connection to radiators.

One connection to deer and elk in hot areas is the deer may not have as hard a winter as deer in other places. They loose less weight in the winter and can spend more energy replacing horn.

Sitka, and coastal black tails in oregon are a different species of deer thats a week argument and holds enough weight as comparing deer in the black belt "good soil" ohio white tail to arizona couse deer.


elk in the town are grown from good genitics and have proper feed. They dont have to hike all over the mountains. Some are given other minerals to increase horn growth. imho it has nothing to do with radiators.

Why is this site the worst out for browsing with
a phone or posting with a phone?

 

[Califelkslayer]

In 2010 my Dad drew a Wasatch muzzy elk tag. We had great spring, early summer rains.

He went guided, I tagged along. In conversation with a guy that had spent 40 years on the Wasatch, seeing horn growth versus that years weather, this is what he told me.

It had gotten into the 100s that June which had affected how the bulls finished. I'd never heard that and asked. He explained that they move less in hot weather, Got up to feed later in the evening, bedded earlier in the morning thus their food intake diminished resulting in horn growth slowing during a critical time.

That was his opinion and it made sense to me.

I think the advantage the desert areas have besides genetics is that in spring the animals (deer and elk) are not putting body weight back on therefore their energy goes more to horn growth.

A Northern Montana bull may lose a couple of hundred pounds just surviving winter whereas a AZ, NM, Southern UT or Southern NV bull doesn't have to deal with that, or at least not to that extreme.

 

[T45]

First of all I am new here, I have read a lot just never posted. Anyway I live in southern NV and see the horn growth and pay attention to the amount of rain we get in the units I hunt each year. I think it has more to do with the timing of the storms than heat. If heat were the case we would have consistent horn growth pretty much every year because it is always hot in our summer 95+ degree weather. Early spring rain seems to ALWAYS help. We have seen bucks lose 20+ inches from a wet spring to a dry one but temperature doesn't seem to effect anything. Just my 2 cents not by any means a wildlife biologist.

 

[BLooDTRaCKeR]

If anything, I would think more heat would help the antler growth because the bucks would be laying for longer periods of time in the shade, conserving energy which would go to horn growth?? I ain't a biologist either, but this theory makes more sense to me.

The deer in the winter that survive long, cold winters do so by preserving their fat reserves for when it is needed. This is done by little movement. Hence the reason we are asked to keep our distance from the herds during these vulnerable times of the year.

 

[Fullrut85]

Wouldn't milder winters and wet springs be the best recipe for horn growth. Milder winters they have to use less fat reserves and will be better off heading into spring. With mild winters brings earlier feed, and wet springs will help keep good feed throughout most the summer. Which I would think equal the best horn growth.

 

[Ticks N Tines]

Every year 200" bucks and 400" bulls are killed regardless of the conditions. Unless there is some dramatic event, deer and elk will adapt and survive. Horns will grow in all shapes and sizes every year, some big, some small. I don't think the heat plays a very big part in how antlers will grow. As long as an animal has food, water, and cover, the horns will grow in my opinion.

 

[CrabClaw]

>Wouldn't milder winters and wet springs
>be the best recipe for
>horn growth. Milder winters they
>have to use less fat
>reserves and will be better
>off heading into spring. With
>mild winters brings earlier feed,
>and wet springs will help
>keep good feed throughout most
>the summer. Which I would
>think equal the best horn
>growth.


Bingo!

I think the severity of the winter has a lot to do with horn growth. If they come out of winter in poor condition their body will allocate resources toward recovery before antlers.

 

[c3]

>Every year 200" bucks and 400"
>bulls are killed regardless of
>the conditions.
As long as it's a warm and dry place

No 200" bucks or particularly 400" bulls have ever been from the cold and wet, EVER !!!

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Gator]

The body takes what it needs and the horns get the leftovers, The more they eat the more leftovers the horns get.
HOT weather with lots of feed would be a bunch of feeding at night during the cool hours and lay up in the shade during the hot day.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

 

[swbuckmaster]

>No 200" bucks or particularly 400"
>bulls have ever been from
>the cold and wet, EVER
>!!!

Maybe that's because the elk that live in cold wet areas are Roosevelt elk a different species. The deer that live in those same areas are typically black tail deer which are also different species.

I however saw a photo of a giant Washington elk today. It had to have been 450^
ive seen a photo of 400" plus bull in Saskatchewan
ive seen photos of 200" white tails in Canada
ive seen photos of 200" mule deer in Canada
Those areas are a lot colder and wetter then Arizona!

How come the south has such small white tail deer? You would think Alabama, Florida should be hot enough to grow big deer radiators?

4 things for antler growth

1. minerals and how the plants get the minerals. If its too wet the water can leach the minerals away from the plants. If its too dry the plants cant get the minerals.

2. An animal cant grow huge antlers if its replacing body mass including muscle and fat. Thats like a trying to turn a half starved man into Arnold Schwarzenegger.

3. Genetics it has to have the genetics to grow the antlers.

4. Age

Never seen anything that says deer or elk grow big horns to radiate their body heat. Id love to see your scientific findings or research on the subject though. It would be interesting reading!

Why is this site the worst out for browsing with
a phone or posting with a phone?

 

[shotgun1]

Heat wave is over for now, no need to panic.

 

[c3]

You've obviously never been to Saskatchewan, nor eastern Washington Scott.

Here's your only 400 bull ever from there - http://gothunts.com/saskatchewan-high-fence-elk-hunt/

By the way it's over 90 today in Regina today.

Where are all the big bulls from Washington state from? Yakima area where it's 98 degrees today.

The Oregon and Washington coasts ranges have milder winter weather than anywhere in Utah or the mtns in AZ where the elk live. They have giant bodies and little dinky horns.

This cold and rain we're having right now is costing the local bulls 2" a day in growth.

Cluelessness reigns it appears.

 

[swbuckmaster]

>Cluelessness reigns it appears.

Show me where your getting your data! It appears your just pulling it out of your butt. I have never heard or read anything anywhere that says deer antlers are radiators.

Why is this site the worst out for browsing with
a phone or posting with a phone?

 

[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-15 AT 02:58PM (MST)[p]You would think as hot as it is in Bakersfield CA the elk would have gargantuan radiators.

Why hasn't anyone transplanted Roosevelt elk in Nevada. As hot as it is and as big as those elks bodies are they should grow huge radiators.

Why is this site the worst out for browsing with
a phone or posting with a phone?

 

[c3]

They have native Tule elk in California and they won't transplant Yellowstone elk there for that reason. They also have Roosevelt elk in California and the P&Y world record is from by Willow Creek where it's 80 - 90's inland off the coast in a state park.

All the biggest Rosies from Oregon are from the west side of the cascades down in the valleys on private ground where it's 90 and 100 every day in the summer.

Check out the country where they kill all the biggest Tule elk
https://pope-young.org/records/top_ten.asp?sid=34

Nevada doesn't want Roosevelt elk when they already have a thriving population of native Yellowstone elk.

We can keep going back and forth with this as long as you want, but in nearly every case the truly big ones are always coming from places where it's hot and dry. You can't show me any big critters from places where it's cool and wet. It just doesn't work that way.

Cheers,
Pete