Are you All ok with losing AZ access???

Muley_73

Very Active Member
Messages
2,396
It is totally unbelievable to me to see all the negative post about theDixie SFW chapter and the stance on Fedral Land issue. Yet at the very same time people are posting that the Feds are trying to shutdown a big chunk of the strip for another National Monument. That post has 1 comment! Willy, One Eye (Richard), Stillhunter, hoss, where are you guys on this???? It's happening and not speculation, it's in the process and happening and not word from you all??? Are you all ok with this? Seems to kinda be a trend by the Feds. Is it all ok as long as the SFW is not involved? You all seem to not be concerned with the actual issues as much as just personal dislike for the SFW?
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
The only one that was knowledgeable about the issue seemed to be AZMIGHTYMULEYS. It's a fact that we need to classify all our public lands these days.( public so far)

So is it going to be shut down? Or is that just more BS hype from government haters? because like it or not it's public land, and that means we get a shared say in its managment, through the dreadful government.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,356
The designation of a national monument does not automatically result in being 'cut off' and it certainly does not mean that hunting will automatically cease in those areas.

So that begs the question---is there actual information leading people to reasonably believe hunting will be cut off? Or is this SFW propaganda?
 

wileywapati

Very Active Member
Messages
1,808
who would have thought an anti gun
Democrat of a President would do something
Like this??? Pretty much everyone.

Who would have thought a supposed Sportsmans
Group would support the eventual sale of wildlife
Habitat they've invested millions of dollars in over
The last two decades?? Well, I did cause I know how
Thick Peay, Noel, Ivory and Okerlund are.

Ebola
835 ball ammo ( green tip )
China probably owns the Grand Canyon anyways.
Paranoia.

Cody, if this actually happens it will be a travesty.
But this is a snake in the dirt ( Obama )
The other ( SFW ) is a snake in the grass that supposedly
Represents hunters.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,703
Nope, that would be a bad deal. Just like when President Clinton created the Grand Staircase National Monument in Southern Utah. That was a bad deal too. Sportsmen should stand up a fight against this proposed change. I have already sent my comments. Although I don't want to see a new National Monument down there, I will say that at least National Monuments are public land. Most of the folks that have hunted the Paunsaugunt in the last decade have hunted on a National Monument. There are some stupid rules but you can still hunt it. My main concern with the push to transfer federal lands to the state is the clear fact that the state would sell and develop significant portions of the public lands. I don't see the proposed National Monument in AZ as an argument in support of transferring all federal lands to the states. One bad idea does not justify another.

-Hawkeye-
 

Elkduds

Active Member
Messages
572
Obama named Brown's Canyon here in CO a Nat'l Monument last month. Hunting and fishing will continue there, mineral extraction is now excluded. There were proposals to lease Brown's for drilling. Some hunting organizations supported designation for Brown's. Each Monument has management rules specific to its own circumstances. A Google search just now showed this proposal for Kaibab maintains hunting. A case can be made for these designations improving hunting, by limiting or preventing uses that conflict w hunting. That is what is happening in Brown's Canyon.

Birdman, what am I missing? How would this proposal result in loss of access?
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,356
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-15 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]Looks like Muley73 gots some 'splainin to do...
 

Hawkeye

Very Active Member
Messages
2,703
Cody-

Since you are obviously focused on the "actual issues," why don't you tell the rest of us how you feel about them? Are you in favor of the proposed public lands transfer? If so, why? Are you against the proposed national monument on the North Rim? Is so, why? Who knows, we might agree on some of these issues?

-Hawkeye-
 

Birdman

Active Member
Messages
908
Just going by the article where it quotes Senators McCain and Flake.? I don't think I would trust the feds. I guess it is just my opinion. Kind of like the opinion that the State will sell of property. No one knows for sure what
the Feds and the State will do till it all happens. Until then we assume.
 

elkfromabove

Very Active Member
Messages
1,712
>It is totally unbelievable to me
>to see all the negative
>post about theDixie SFW chapter
>and the stance on Fedral
>Land issue. Yet at
>the very same time people
>are posting that the Feds
>are trying to shutdown a
>big chunk of the strip
>for another National Monument.
>That post has 1 comment!
> Willy, One Eye (Richard),
>Stillhunter, hoss, where are you
>guys on this???? It's happening
>and not speculation, it's in
>the process and happening and
>not word from you all???
>Are you all ok with
>this? Seems to kinda
>be a trend by the
>Feds. Is it all
>ok as long as the
>SFW is not involved? You
>all seem to not be
>concerned with the actual issues
>as much as just personal
>dislike for the SFW?

Look on the Arizona sub-forum! There are at least 2 threads going on there, one with 21 comments, all Arizonans. And since this is primarily an Arizona issue, any comments by Utahns would be pretty much dismissed, especially by the proponents of this move. Our votes don't count for much! Also, if any Utahns should be commenting, it should be Dixie SFW since they are the ones closest to the situation. What is their stance in this one?

Personally, I don't dislike SFW per se. But I've found that my dealings with SFW both publically and privately, nearly always bypass the issue and take on a personal aspect. And most of your posts show that. Just because we don't agree with all of SFW's proposals, opinions and/or actions, we're SFW haters!

Ironically, the SFW leadership is on a path that is self destructive. If you think it's difficult or unnerving dealing with the likes of the members of this forum or UWC, BHA, SUWA or even RMEF, the BLM or NFS, wait 'til you have to compete with the likes of Exxon, Weyerhauser and the other world class oil, mining, lumber, cattle, energy and development companies. You'll be outspent, outmaneuvered, outpoliticised and outclassed by companies who have wildlife quite a bit further down their list of priorities than you do. Good luck with that!
 

Muley_73

Very Active Member
Messages
2,396
I am in favor of what keeps the land open to the public. Bottom line. If that is state control in some case I'd support that if it is Fed controlled I would support that. Designating an area as National Monument in my opinion lays the foundation for much easier closure in the future.
 

mike111

Active Member
Messages
919
The Grand Canyon Watershed National Monument is a BAD DEAL!!


**If this Monument passes hunting is allowed...BUT...IT WILL

MAKE IT BE MUCH EASIER TO MAKE INTO A NATIONAL PARK...WHICH YOU

CANNOT HUNT ON....Here are a few examples of National Monuments

that were converted into National Parks...

-Grand Canyon
-Bryce
-Grand Teton
-Olympic
-Zion
-Acadia


This is not just an Arizona issue, we need EVERYBODY'S SUPPORT!!

If you enjoy hunting Arizona in Unit 9 for elk, the Strip

13B/13A/12A then you better comment and send emails, because

once it's a NATIONAL PARK THERE'S NO HUNTING FOR ANYBODY!!!
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-15 AT 06:41AM (MST)[p]Yea sure, that place is just so extraordinary it will become a national park. Do you really think that? That's pretty funny if you do.

Maybe 200 hundred years from now, and believe me there ain't gonna be much left of anything in the west by then anyway.
 

DW

Long Time Member
Messages
14,273
Piper yer feathers are showin. Now we have 5 threads regarding this issue...congratulations.
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
More conversations about conservation the better. This is the important stuff, who drew what isn,t.
 

sagebrush

Very Active Member
Messages
1,480
There can't be too much chatter on this topic. There is one thing different about this proposed designation than the others that have preceded it. The main mover and shaker behind the new national monument is the Center for Biological Diversity. They have a stated goal of establishing a population of wolves on the Kabaib Plateau and surrounding areas. Most of the land is already under federal control via the US Forest Service and BLM. Uranium mining is under a 20 year moratorium by executive order. There is no need to establish a national monument on the Kaibab and the Strip unless you want to transfer control to the National Park Service and their pro-wolf agenda.

Your comments do matter. It is not just an AZ issue. We need as many members of congress speaking out against the GCWNM as we can get.

And to the bigger issue, we need to garner support for the bill that will stop national monuments and national parks being created by executive order without congressional approval.



"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 

mike111

Active Member
Messages
919
Even though the Water Shed National Monument contains plenty of land not worthy of a National Park, it will still border the Grand Canyon and the existing Grand Canyon National Park. This new National Monument would be an easy fix in the future in expanding the current Grand Canyon National Park. Not only would this Monument include most of the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, it's also going to take up the majority of the South Rim including unit 9. Also maintaining water catchments, closure of roads, wolf re-introduction efforts and more rules and restrictions would be a great possibility in the near future! If we don't step up and fight this National Monument now, the Arizona Strip will slowly be won by the Environmental groups and hunting on the Arizona Strip will be a thing of the past....
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
4,017
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-15 AT 11:10PM (MST)[p]
It just seems it would be great if there was a large, united, well organized sportsmen's hunting/fishing group in Arizona that could call thousands of like minded people together, in one place, with a united voice, to exercise political pressure in the right places. A group that could bring influence with the State's Legislator's and as well as powerful Federal Senators and Legislator's, that could help Arizona sportsmen protect these lands from wolves or any other change that would threaten wildlife.

Politically influential hunting and fishing organizations are not always popular but they sure can help solve a "call to action" effort at times like these. Some sportsmen understand the concept others not so much. Those that do, there's no need to wait, get yourselves organized, this Arizona issue will certainly not be the last time you'll need to be ready to do battle. Why wait until "the wolf's at the door"? It's your future that you'll be preparing to preserve.

No need to affiliate with anyone, any where, do it yourselves, with your own objectives and your own goals, just do it. There have been hundreds of authors that have written books on how to "help government, help you", read one of them and get started. In other words, take back control of your business, through influencing political elections.

DC
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,677
>There can't be too much chatter
>on this topic. There is
>one thing different about this
>proposed designation than the others
>that have preceded it. The
>main mover and shaker behind
>the new national monument is
>the Center for Biological Diversity.
>They have a stated goal
>of establishing a population of
>wolves on the Kabaib Plateau
>and surrounding areas. Most of
>the land is already under
>federal control via the US
>Forest Service and BLM. Uranium
>mining is under a 20
>year moratorium by executive order.
>There is no need to
>establish a national monument on
>the Kaibab and the Strip
>unless you want to transfer
>control to the National Park
>Service and their pro-wolf agenda.
>
>
>Your comments do matter. It is
>not just an AZ issue.
>We need as many members
>of congress speaking out against
>the GCWNM as we can
>get.
>
>And to the bigger issue, we
>need to garner support for
>the bill that will stop
>national monuments and national parks
>being created by executive order
>without congressional approval.
>
>
>
>"You can fly a helicopter to
>the top of Everest and
>say you've been there. The
>problem with that is you
>were an a$$hole when you
>started and you're still an
>a$$hole when you get back.
>
>Its the climb that makes you
>a different person". - Yvon
>Chouinard

This was exactly what I was going to put! Also add into the additional management regulation that go with the designation as well! For example the inability to use machines for any sort management purposes, it can happen but it can also be tied up for a very long time! This includes everything from habitat improvements using machines to even fire prevention! The water issues and the use of guzzlers and tanks is also huge. In effect they will remove many if not all.

But the it one is the expansion of wolf habitat and the introduction of wolves! This in and of itself will mean the end to hunting as it is known in the region!
You sad a lot! People need to pull their heads out on this one and get it stomped out!
 

shotgun1

Active Member
Messages
704
Another lonely Saturday night, huh M73.
Are you ok with losing Utah? If Utah was to take over all the federal land right now, where would the money come from to manage all that land?
Like a good kool-aid drinker that you are, I fully expect you to dodge that question.
Nice try tho, trying to devert the focus away from the real issue. Did Donny teach you that tactic? You just keep on following the flock, doing what you're told and don't ask questions. $FW depends on sheeple like you.
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,411
2lumpy about five years ago there were about 20 wanabe sportsman that gathered in Az. They just wanted to steal all the primo tags remember? I think is was SFW if I remember right, correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Gator

Long Time Member
Messages
17,366
They will need that large area to be able to turn those wolves loose that they have target for AZ. So if it not stopped WE will lose it to them furry a$$ dogs.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
Messages
4,065
Whatever happens on this issue, one way or the other, if I were a sportsmen's organization/resident in Arizona I'd get my chit together.

I would have a contingency plan for how this thing shakes out either way.

If it goes the way of being designated a monument, I would be lobbying and talking to the right people to make damn sure that hunting, fishing, habitat improvements, etc. would be part of the accepted uses within the monument.

If the designation fails, I would also be leaning on the BLM to make some changes there. Changes like limiting access, closing some existing roads, protecting core wildlife areas, reducing impacts by extractive uses, etc. etc.

The reason a lot of these issues come up, is because of the complacency of Citizens who use the same sorry excuses, "no time, spine, or effort" to get involved.

Sportsmen should have been proactive in these issues and taking the lead. Instead its total panic and reactive crisis mode.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
4,017
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-15 AT 07:34PM (MST)[p]Deerlove and BuzzH.

Deerlove, regarding SFW and Arizona. See below my comment to BuzzH.

BuzzH, your comment are absolutely correct, you and I have very different views of the world but this we agree and we should leverage those things with which we agree and disagree when we must. You and I have been preaching, teaching, begging, pleading, scolding, suggesting, encouraging etc. etc. for sportsmen in every State to unit. To cooperate. To plan, to be proactive, to be aware of the coming tsunamis, earth quakes, hail storms and anti-hunting legislation, for many, many years. Yet, be it Calif., Washington, Arizona, New Mexico, every time an issue that comes up that is going to reduce hunting opportunity and the outdoor lifestyle individual sportsmen cry out for help, when the horse is out of the barn. Why, oh why, oh why won't someone in these State decide to put their differences aside and unit for their own preservation? It's not rocket science, hell, Saul Alinsky, the despicable leftist, spells out how to take over the legislative process. If sportsmen can't come up with a better way to do it, read his crap and learn how the left is doing in, then turn it back on them, by doing it yourselves. It's called "community organizing", regardless of who's doing the organizing!

I wrote this before you post, in response to Deerlove's comment, it's redundant now but I'll put it out here again, one more time, just in case someone from Arizona, or some place will finally get motivated and get moving before our entire hunting world is obsolete.


Deerlove and anyone else with ears to hear.
I think there was a group in AZ that did try to get the F & G down there to offer some tags (primo tags I would guess) for auction. It might have been a group modeled after the SFW or at least proposing a similar approach. As I recall, there was opposition to the proposal and the AZ did not give the group the tags.

I have no quarrel with how AZ F & G and AZ sportsmen choose to fund their department or their conservation fund raising efforts. It AZ wants to charge more for their tags, ask for donations, run their own raffles, have a State Lottery for Wildlife Conservation, it's okay with me. There are a lot ways to raise money, if they even want to raise money for conservation. But if they're having a problem with anti hunters using wolf conservation group's to back door sportsmen by allowing wolves to management/reduce big game populations, it stands to reason they will be needing addition revenue from some source, or they will simply loose the fight and loose future hunting opportunities. AZ sportsmen clearly don't want to loose hunting opportunity.

The point of my previous post was not to suggest or infer that Arizona sportsmen should start a SFW group, or even a group that mirrors SFW or has any connection, any contact or any association with SFW or any of the SFW membership. They don't need SFW or any existing sportsmen's hunting and fishing organization. They don't need MDF, RMEF, SCI, NRA, or heaven forbid the National Wildlife Federation.

So what do they need?

Simple. They need a "State wide Hunting and Fishing Organization". Call it any thing you want but it's 100% made up of Arizona hunter and fishermen.

Here is what they need to do. Create the group, elect ambitious leaders, agree to disagree but support a majority vote, establish a two sentence mission statement that states that the group's entire mission is to preserve and grow public hunting and fishing opportunities and life styles in the State of Arizona, charge $30.00 for a membership, (so membership has value and membership believe their membership in an investment in their hunting/fishing future.) Finally, let every member and every potential member know that 90% of hunting and fishing is controlled by government and government influence is where the group will be spending it's time, it effort and it's resources, and members should know from the outset that electing and re-electing State and Federal Representatives will the primary focus of the "group's" efforts. Why. Because it the government Representatives and the government Bureaucrats that have always and will always decide the future of hunting and fishing in Arizona, based on the laws and regulations they put into law. These laws must be influence and controlled, as much is possible, to allow for hunting and fishing life styles and for hunting and fishing opportunities to continue and grow in the State of Arizona. This is done by large groups of like minded, committed, some times disagree but always cooperating, sportsmen that take control of who get elected and who get re-elected, and they do it at the grass roots level, not during the general election, because it's too late to hope to get it done at the general election level.

While it is distasteful for many, it will most likely become necessary to "pay" a salary to the executive body of the "Az Group" because coordinating and facilitating the united effort and the 24/7 necessity to stay on top of the hunting and fishing issues in the State. Salaries require an income form somewhere, it don't matter where the income comes from, so long as it's legal and it happens, because volunteers simple run out of energy, time and personal income to support the kind of time and effort that needs to going into a group that is organized well enough to "get the job done" when the "wolf is at the door".

If AZ and any other State would get such an organization established, keep it active, keep it funded (however it is they choose to do it), when issue like AZ is presently having their is a powerful force that can be put into action to address the issue, and in some case ward it off before it ever becomes and issue.

If sportsmen in AZ and others State don't, they will continue to be blind sided, taken advantage of, whipped and defeated by the anti hunting organizations that are already doing just exactly what I explained sportsmen need to do.

It has nothing what ever to do with SFW. Nothing. If sportsmen are going preserve hunting and fishing, they must get better at doing what their enemies are doing, and agree to disagree from time to time and stay united and supportive of what the majority want to do, regardless of their personal disagreements or personal dislikes with the "groups" leadership. Members elect the groups leaders, deal with it at that level, but support the leadership when the big fights need to be waged.

IF.....................at this time AZ had a State wide, united, cooperative sportsmen's group in place, influencing government, they would be out in front of this issue, leading the opposition effort as it were. At that time, the AZ group could then call on MDF, RMEF, SCI, NRA etc to join with them and create an more powerful united front. As it is now, there is no local organized politically powerful group in AZ, so their is simply not a hell of a lot that the rest of us can do to help now, because there is no one AZ group organizing the opposition.

So.......as much as I hate to say it.........we all know where this is going to end. There will be wolves in northern Arizona and their was absolutely no reason to have lost this fight. Like Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, we'll be fighting to get them out, rather than fighting to keep them out, we're always behind the curve on these issues, or so it seems.

DC
 

sagebrush

Very Active Member
Messages
1,480
So we need another group besides AZSFWC and the Sportmen's Constituent Group?


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
4,017
You need a single united group, focused and political, if you got it, get politicians that support hunting and fishing elected, or not.

If you want to win that's were it will happen. If you don't have the right State and Fed Legislators in office, you loose.

Earlier in this discussion there were three or four legislators that were listed as supporting the Monument, get those people to change their vote or get them out of office. If AZSFWC and/or the Sportmen's Constituent Group are getting the job done, how come these politicians are not supporting hunters?

If thousands of sportsmen aren't proactive members of AZSFWC and the Sportmen's Constituent Group, then you better get another unifying group started, if AZSFWC and the Sportmen's Constituent Group has broad support and are proactive politically, get on board and get political, clearly, you've been caught with your britches down.

DC
 

Muley_73

Very Active Member
Messages
2,396
Shotgun,
Nah I was plenty busy just waiting for my sons High School baseball game to start. If you read my posts you'd see I say I'd support whatever provides the best access to sportsman. Again you are so hung up on SFW you can't focus on anything else. What sad little bitter existence. When people like you post I often wonder if you've been unfortunate since birth and it has built up to this bitterness or if it was series of events or maybe one big event? Either way I think it would not be fun.
 

sagebrush

Very Active Member
Messages
1,480
Not really. We have being battling the proposed national monument for the past decade. The Center for Biological Diversity and the other wolf hippie groups have tried every agency they could to get this done and we beat them back every time.

The only avenue they have left is to lobby Obama to create the national monument by executive order and bypassing congress. The representatives that are lobbying Obama on behalf of the CBD are from the few liberal districts in the state that have been gerrymandered to ensure they get re-elected. The school districts there taught, as part of their curriculum, AZ and the USA were illegally occupying Mexican territory and should be making reparations to Mexico. Until the rest of us found out and the state made them knock it off. Just to give you an idea of the mentality down there.

We just need a grassroots effort as we have used in the past to get enough congressmen on the right side of the issue. And that is where fellow sportsmen from outside AZ can help. The proposal is for a "national" monument managed by the National Park Service paid for by federal tax dollars.

We can put this proposal to bed once and for all, along with any other schemes to bypass congress, by asking our congressmen to support legislation that is currently being drafted that would require land use restriction executive orders, like national monument designations, have the approval of congress prior to taking effect. That will keep well funded special interest groups like the CBD from circumventing the legislative process through the executive order back door.

You can make a difference for everyone by contacting your elected representatives. We'll take care of our own.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
4,017
Thanks for the details sagebrush, great to know your hacking at it. I'll do my part and ask Hatch, Lee, Stewart, Love, and Bishop to hold the line, with you folks. It's worth the effort.

I'm sure BuzzH, Muley73, Deerlove and others will do the same.

DC
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-15 AT 00:36AM (MST)[p]I hope Obama designates the monument soon, after Hatch, Stewart, Love, Bishop and Chavetez get done selling and trading away the BLM and Forest service land, monuments and wildlife refuges are going to be all that's left for regular folks to hunt in.

SWF, Tristate, Ken Ivory, dang I just puked a little, you guys ever listen to Ivory? Now there is a real piece of work, or as us rural folks like to say, he is a real dandie.
 

wileywapati

Very Active Member
Messages
1,808
Noel and Okerlund are just as bad.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 

shotgun1

Active Member
Messages
704
"Deerlove and anyone else with ears to hear.
I think there was a group in AZ that did try to get the F & G down there to offer some tags (primo tags I would guess) for auction. It might have been a group modeled after the SFW or at least proposing a similar approach. As I recall, there was opposition to the proposal and the AZ did not give the group the tags."

Yea remember how to they tried to get those tags with some sneaky, back door, last minute legislation without public comment. Yep, modeled after $FW Utah alright. If I remember correctly, weren't there some key utah $FW players involved?

2lumpy, your description of an organization to fight in the political arena sounds pretty ideal to me. Is that how SFW Is being run?
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
4,017
If it's not being run that way, it should be. If you don't control the politicians, someone else is going to.

DC
 

shotgun1

Active Member
Messages
704
What? You mean to tell me the organization that you and your son are members of and so adamantly defend whenever they get bad mouthed. You don't even know how it's run?
 
H

heffe

Guest
Anyone that trusts the Government probably does not have two brain sells to rub together.
 
H

heffe

Guest
yes.

All gov't proposals / agencies should be looked at with severe suspicion. Not all are bad, but none should be trusted.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Top Bottom