Beaver, Southwest Desert, Monroe, Mt Dutton

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dogvalleymule

Active Member
Messages
101
These units Beaver, Southwest Desert, Monroe, MT Dutton, needs better support from the Southern RAC, we as hunters need to put pressure on the RAC to do something, to save these Units, or they should get off the board. What do you sportsman think, I like to here your views.
 
dogvalleymule said:
These units Beaver, Southwest Desert, Monroe, MT Dutton, needs better support from the Southern RAC, we as hunters need to put pressure on the RAC to do something, to save these Units, or they should get off the board. What do you sportsman think, I like to here your views.
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Be careful what you wish for! If you kick them off the RAC, who will replace them?
 
Oh.... deer. I was thinking elk and couldn't figure out what the issue was.
Yes, there are hunter out there and they're concerned about their deer. I'm one of them!
You're correct, these units are all in dire need of something done to bring the deer back.
I spent lots of days this year on the SWD unit and was appalled by the low deer numbers.

Zeke
 
I know a lot of ranchers that run cattle on the Monroe, and like to hunt deer their too, they hardly see any deer, they say it's sad what the DWR has done to that unit, cow elk is sad too.
 
dogvalleymule said:
These units Beaver, Southwest Desert, Monroe, MT Dutton, needs better support from the Southern RAC, we as hunters need to put pressure on the RAC to do something, to save these Units, or they should get off the board. What do you sportsman think, I like to here your views.
Click to expand...

Well, they did cut tags by 30 percent on the Beaver this year. I think that's a good start, maybe they'll cut more tags next year if things don't improve.
 
The trouble is that 900 is not enough of a tag cut. When you don't have a deer herd and still leave 2100 hunters on the unit, it will just continue to get worse and it is in real bad shape as it is. I would imagine the other units are all in the same kind of condition. My hats off to the Southeastern region RAC who stepped up and were able to get even more tags cut on some of those units.
 
southernutahhunter said:
The trouble is that 900 is not enough of a tag cut. When you don't have a deer herd and still leave 2100 hunters on the unit, it will just continue to get worse and it is in real bad shape as it is. I would imagine the other units are all in the same kind of condition. My hats off to the Southeastern region RAC who stepped up and were able to get even more tags cut on some of those units.
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I am not saying I know anything about the current deer herd health, but If a unit the size and good habitat of the Beaver can not support more than 2100 buck permits then you got more problems than just cutting buck permits can help.
 
Notdonhunting you hit the nail on the head. Everyone looks at the buck population, but the problem is the doe population has decreased as well, and until we figure out that problem you can cut tags all day and it is not going to do any good. If you grow the doe population, the buck population will return.
 
When I was able to start hunting the Beaver in the 50s I would bet their was 30,000 plus deer on the Beaver, when we would check on our cattle you would see at least 50 or more deer, and now your lucky to see 10, and the south end of the Beaver has not change that much, the have railed some tree's down is about all, you can't keep killing does and a lot of bucks, you got to have enough bucks to breed the does the first time around, so the fawn have a chance to make it through the winter. I've been hunting the Beaver for 60 plus years, I was raise on the Beaver, and Mt Dutton.
 
Notdonhunting you are right on the fact that tag cuts will not totally help the deer herd, but like dogvalley said, if you do not have any bucks to breed the doe at the right time, then there is a fawn survival problem. They said the Beaver deer were skinny going into the winter and that is why the winter survival was poor. There is no reason for these deer to be skinny, because the habitat is great. These deer in these open areas cannot be chased and hunted from Mid August into December and not help but be skinny.
 
Word has it that a lot of does are shot in the fields around dutton by the farmers that hate the deer. Duttons deer herd is dismal, and I’m usually the optimist but I’ve got to be realistic. The last 2-3 years have hit all time lows in my opinion. We spend a ton of time on that mountain every year elk hunting and the deer are extinct.
 
Like I said I do not know much about the unit, the only time I have spent on the unit is 5 years ago scouting and then hunting Goats. I did not see much deer back then but I ways not really looking.
I have a couple friends that hunt the unit pretty hard for the last 10 years and they bolth have had pretty good success. They said last year was tougher than previous years neither one killed last year but bolth said they did see some of the biggest deer that they have seen on the Beaver. They bolth felt quality was up numbers down. They bolth hunt the north end.
 
Dutton is pathetic. It is shameful what has happened to the Deer herd there. I have seen it coming for years , and have talked about it here on MM often. I have had many from this site and others ask for help and have always given honest advice when ask. now my advice is, don't waist your time on Dutton. Stupid Crazy tag numbers for years, extra hunts offered for Muzzy, based off Stupid and IMO untrue, buck to doe numbers. Radical range programs, that have wiped out cover in the habitat. the tree removal might bring more to the habitat in the FAR OFF DISTANT FUTURE. but for now, and many years to come, until brush, brows, and some type of cover can grow. its gonna get worse. In the 80s, before the big fire, I took littlebuck there, and she was amazed at the Deer numbers, she still talks about seeing dozens of bucks in a day. I remember watching my sons, as the sun came up in the early 2000s trying to judge several bucks in a drainage as they headed to their bedding grounds. the managment has been pathetic. I cant remember the last time the DWR didn't increase tag numbers until this year. we hunted the entire hunt last year, scouted for many days, as 2 of my grandsons had tags. our limited success was due to knowledge of the area and hard hunting / scouting. from general Deer hunting, to Southern general , to Dutton general season over the years, after ALL the years, I am scouting this year for a different area. the Dutton is heartbreaking to myself, and my family who have spent years watching the decline.
 
The Filmore Pahvant unit needs to be added to this list. We have hunted this unit for 30 plus years and it getting hard to find a doe anymore.
 
It's always easy to blame the DWR for the deer decline because it looks like such an easy fix, just stop issuing so many buck tags. But the harvest stats for the last few years (since Option #2) show that the number of buck tags issued isn't the problem.

It's hard to get very accurate stats prior to unit hunter management, but between 2013 and 2018 all 5 of the units mentioned above (Beaver, Fillmore, Monroe, Mt Dutton and SW Desert) show pretty level tag numbers, hunters afield and harvest numbers. While the DWR could certainly better adjust the number of buck tags according to the current herd populations and buck to doe ratios, those tag numbers don't drive the decline. On the shorter term basis, it's the weather, but on the longer term basis it's habitat quality and quantity loss due to drought, invasive plant and animal species, and increased human populations and activities. Harsh winters, dry summers, cheatgrass, roads and freeways, suburbs, wildfires, feral horses, predators, fences, poachers, diseases, bark beetles, increased elk herds, P & J encroachment, ATV's, and myriads of other things have taken their toll. But the harvesting of bucks would be way down near the bottom of the list of causes for the decline.

So, what happened in 2019? The stats show a significant drop in overall harvest percentages (except for Fillmore Pahvant).

Unit---------2013---2014---2015---2016----2017---2018---2019
Beaver------37.4%--41.0%--48.1%--44.9%--42.7%--39.7%--27.3%
Pahvant----37.1%--30.9%--40.8%--37.0%--32.4%--33.8%--32.0%
Monroe----55.4%--56.3%--54.9%--54.3%--51.4%--52/6%--42.4%
MtDutton--41.5%--46.8%--45.2%--54.4%--53.0%--43.3%--25.5%
SW Desert-29.3%--24.1%--37.3%--32.2%--33.2%--37.3%--20.7%

What happened?
Page 20
Harsh winter and, hopefully, the end of a 7 year long drought ending with an extreme drought year (2018). Note that in the last 31 years we've had 21 dry years, but only 9 wet ones with 2019 still not listed. (Hopefully, the weather in the Southern Region looks like the weather in Southeastern Region in 2019, an extremely wet year.) In any case, you can blame the number of buck tags for the decline, but I, for one, think otherwise!
Page 18
(The link address says it's the 2019 Southern Region Report, but it's actually the 2019 Southeastern Region Report. The DWR made a mistake. :) )
 
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elkfromabove said:
It's always easy to blame the DWR for the deer decline because it looks like such an easy fix, just stop issuing so many buck tags. But the harvest stats for the last few years (since Option #2) show that the number of buck tags issued isn't the problem.

It's hard to get very accurate stats prior to unit hunter management, but between 2013 and 2018 all 5 of the units mentioned above (Beaver, Fillmore, Monroe, Mt Dutton and SW Desert) show pretty level tag numbers, hunters afield and harvest numbers. While the DWR could certainly better adjust the number of buck tags according to the current herd populations and buck to doe ratios, those tag numbers don't drive the decline. On the shorter term basis, it's the weather, but on the longer term basis it's habitat quality and quantity loss due to drought, invasive plant and animal species, and increased human populations and activities. Harsh winters, dry summers, cheatgrass, roads and freeways, suburbs, wildfires, feral horses, predators, fences, poachers, diseases, bark beetles, increased elk herds, P & J encroachment, ATV's, and myriads of other things have taken their toll. But the harvesting of bucks would be way down near the bottom of the list of causes for the decline.

So, what happened in 2019? The stats show a significant drop in overall harvest percentages (except for Fillmore Pahvant).

Unit---------2013---2014---2015---2016----2017---2018---2019
Beaver------37.4%--41.0%--48.1%--44.9%--42.7%--39.7%--27.3%
Pahvant----37.1%--30.9%--40.8%--37.0%--32.4%--33.8%--32.0%
Monroe----55.4%--56.3%--54.9%--54.3%--51.4%--52/6%--42.4%
MtDutton--41.5%--46.8%--45.2%--54.4%--53.0%--43.3%--25.5%
SW Desert-29.3%--24.1%--37.3%--32.2%--33.2%--37.3%--20.7%

What happened?
Page 20
Harsh winter and, hopefully, the end of a 7 year long drought ending with an extreme drought year (2018). Note that in the last 31 years we've had 21 dry years, but only 9 wet ones with 2019 still not listed. (Hopefully, the weather in the Southern Region looks like the weather in Southeastern Region in 2019, an extremely wet year.) In any case, you can blame the number of buck tags for the decline, but I, for one, think otherwise!
Page 18
(The link address says it's the 2019 Southern Region Report, but it's actually the 2019 Southeastern Region Report. The DWR made a mistake. :) )
Click to expand...

Opps! I didn't clarify the Page #'s. Those are the Printable list page numbers, but the normal booklet page numbers are both #5. Sorry about that.
 
Let put this way, then why did we have so many deer in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80, we had hard winters, dry summers and all of the above that you mention, let's go on the beaver and look at the feed, Big and Little Dog Valley, Bear Valley, Hawkins, Red Cedar, Cottonwood, and a lot more places, their not enough deer their to eat the feed, not enough bucks to breed the does the first cycle, their deer count is way off, what's wrong with 25 bucks to 100 does, what's wrong with 30,000 deer on the Beaver, stop killing does, what wrong with 7 or 8 years bucks, let's here it elkfromabove, your talking to guy that from child hood to now that line on the beaver for 60 plus years. Let's here your BS.
 
elkfromabove said:
It's always easy to blame the DWR for the deer decline because it looks like such an easy fix, just stop issuing so many buck tags. But the harvest stats for the last few years (since Option #2) show that the number of buck tags issued isn't the problem.

It's hard to get very accurate stats prior to unit hunter management, but between 2013 and 2018 all 5 of the units mentioned above (Beaver, Fillmore, Monroe, Mt Dutton and SW Desert) show pretty level tag numbers, hunters afield and harvest numbers. While the DWR could certainly better adjust the number of buck tags according to the current herd populations and buck to doe ratios, those tag numbers don't drive the decline. On the shorter term basis, it's the weather, but on the longer term basis it's habitat quality and quantity loss due to drought, invasive plant and animal species, and increased human populations and activities. Harsh winters, dry summers, cheatgrass, roads and freeways, suburbs, wildfires, feral horses, predators, fences, poachers, diseases, bark beetles, increased elk herds, P & J encroachment, ATV's, and myriads of other things have taken their toll. But the harvesting of bucks would be way down near the bottom of the list of causes for the decline.

So, what happened in 2019? The stats show a significant drop in overall harvest percentages (except for Fillmore Pahvant).

Unit---------2013---2014---2015---2016----2017---2018---2019
Beaver------37.4%--41.0%--48.1%--44.9%--42.7%--39.7%--27.3%
Pahvant----37.1%--30.9%--40.8%--37.0%--32.4%--33.8%--32.0%
Monroe----55.4%--56.3%--54.9%--54.3%--51.4%--52/6%--42.4%
MtDutton--41.5%--46.8%--45.2%--54.4%--53.0%--43.3%--25.5%
SW Desert-29.3%--24.1%--37.3%--32.2%--33.2%--37.3%--20.7%

What happened?
Page 20
Harsh winter and, hopefully, the end of a 7 year long drought ending with an extreme drought year (2018). Note that in the last 31 years we've had 21 dry years, but only 9 wet ones with 2019 still not listed. (Hopefully, the weather in the Southern Region looks like the weather in Southeastern Region in 2019, an extremely wet year.) In any case, you can blame the number of buck tags for the decline, but I, for one, think otherwise!
Page 18
(The link address says it's the 2019 Southern Region Report, but it's actually the 2019 Southeastern Region Report. The DWR made a mistake. :) )
Click to expand...
Agree with a lot of what you said, mainly it’s not one thing that has caused the decline. But at the end of the day there’s few deer down there right now. My brother lives there and spent all summer and fall on Dutton and there’s no deer, no does, no bucks. It’s sad because it’s awesome deer country.

I agree it’s multiple things that have a negative cumulative effect on deer numbers. Seeing lots of cougars on our cameras, lots. People driving atvs and trucks in closed areas. People shooting at deer at 1000 yards and not looking for them. 100’s of doe tags in the low areas around town. Poachers. Duttons been up and down my whole life and clear back to when my grandpa hunted it in the 50’s but you could always drive up there and see 100 does in an evening. Not the last couple years. We muzzleloader deer hunted last year and saw maybe 10 does and one spike. It’s bad. Hoping for a come back over the next few years.
 
EFA i understand you believe I am wrong about Mt Dutton. I understand, that you have information from the DWR to side with your argument, that I , along with several members of my family, and 4 close friends that hunt with my family..Just plane dont know our butts from a hole in the ground. I dont really care how your info shows it. your info came from the same jackwagons who put in print, there were high numbers of Mule Deer to be hinted throughout the State last year. they changed their tune when public hunters called their bluff. I DO NOT BELIVE THE NUMBERS THEY PUT OUT anymore than there pathetic attempt to promote hunting with RECORD NUMBERS OF MULE DEER THROUGHOUT THE STATE, bs just for your info, that aint rain runnin down your back when you stand next to the DWR. as for my statement of to many tag. if you have info about so many bad dry years, and weather history effecting Deer numbers over the years why didnt they cut tags, why add muzzle loader hunts to a unit, no matter what ratio buck doe if in the last 30 years 19 have been detrimental to deer herds. if a unit has 1500 bucks and 10000 does, no extra hunts, if the same unit 20 years later has 22 bucks and 200 does you can apply for a bonus muzzle loader hunt .I know this is an exaggerated example, but no more exaggerated than the numbers the DWR tries to pass off to the public. I used to be involved with the DWR years ago, no longer. people like you will mention wherwe was I at this RAC meeting, what have I done to help with numbers ect. ect. well I played that game for years, and even when you can gain an inch, it wont take long to loose miles and miles. I am NO longer interested in drinking from the kool aid tank of the DWR. they can blame whatever they want for low Deer numbers, BUT THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO COULD HAVE STOPPED THE DECLINE. and there choice, was to sell tags.
 
EFA it leaves us in a place where the DWR owns up to the piss poor managment job they have done on many units throughout the State. AND as long as its ownership tome for the DWR lets have them finally admit to some other piss poor problems like point creep, they own it, lifetime licenses, whos brain fart was that. how about the expo debacle who owns that one... now, as everyone knows, admitting the problem, and accountability is where you start to FIX the problems the DWR have either allowed to happen, or they gave outright created. FIRST ADMIT IT OWN IT, FESS UP TO IT = THEN= find ways to fix it
 
Stonefly said:
EFA it leaves us in a place where the DWR owns up to the piss poor managment job they have done on many units throughout the State. AND as long as its ownership tome for the DWR lets have them finally admit to some other piss poor problems like point creep, they own it, lifetime licenses, whos brain fart was that. how about the expo debacle who owns that one... now, as everyone knows, admitting the problem, and accountability is where you start to FIX the problems the DWR have either allowed to happen, or they gave outright created. FIRST ADMIT IT OWN IT, FESS UP TO IT = THEN= find ways to fix it
Click to expand...

If I understand you correctly, you first want them to fess up to doing what the Wildlife Board has mandated them to do regarding the methods and numbers of distributing buck tags, then you want them to change those methods and numbers to more fairly distribute those buck tags and "save the units". And then you want them to do what that they aren't already doing?

Please tell us what the ideal scenario is and how we are going to be able to achieve it. Bessy gave us his list. Let's see is yours!
 
elkfromabove said:
If I understand you correctly, you first want them to fess up to doing what the Wildlife Board has mandated them to do regarding the methods and numbers of distributing buck tags, then you want them to change those methods and numbers to more fairly distribute those buck tags and "save the units". And then you want them to do what that they aren't already doing?

Please tell us what the ideal scenario is and how we are going to be able to achieve it. Bessy gave us his list. Let's see is yours!
Click to expand...
I know I hate it when my wife asks me to make a list. You aren't even Stonefly's wife. I wonder if he is going to put together a list for you?
 
Elkfromabove, you do a lot of talking let's here what you would do to bring the deer back, let's see your list, you would add more doe tags, cause their not enough bucks around to breed the does. Let see your list.
 
EFA is the wildlife board a separate entity or part of the DWR. I see them as part of.the DWR and the biggest Part of the problem. nothing but special intrest puppets as a whole, if the State wanted to correct many wrongs withing the DWR there would be a LAW made, that would eventually be broken, but it would need to be a law, not a rule, as rules dont mean shlt to the DWR not even there own. BUT a law that NO MEMBER OF THE WILDLIFE BOARD can EVER have held any position within ANY wildlife group, who has EVER been given a tag as a group. have Ever given gifts to ANY MEMBER of the DWR ,( like sheep hunts) . get rid of the wildlife board and start over with NO SPECIAL INTEREST. no sportsman's groups, no cattleman, no bunny huggers.Only unaffiliated sportsmen. same with the racs. how about instead of special interest dictating to us how public animals will be divided and spread around, sportsmen decide.
 
Wow,
I'm sure glad I don't work for the DWR, because it seems to many if things are not like they were in the good old days, then it's the Fish and Game's guys fault and they need to be fired (from their poverty wage paying jobs).

Sorry guys, but my son got a degree worked for the UDWR but got out because he couldn't take the low pay and ABUSE from every direction!

The fact is, everyone is frustrated and every western state has seriously declining mule deer herds. Yet no one, that's right, NO ONE has found a solution, to the decline.

It's easy to arm-chair quarterback but I agree with EFA that there are Hundreds of reasons why mule deer are not plentiful, and there are no easy answers!
 
dogvalleymule said:
Elkfromabove, you do a lot of talking let's here what you would do to bring the deer back, let's see your list, you would add more doe tags, cause their not enough bucks around to breed the does. Let see your list.
Click to expand...

Since you believe you know what's on my mind, how about you filling out my list?
 
Stonefly said:
EFA is the wildlife board a separate entity or part of the DWR. I see them as part of.the DWR and the biggest Part of the problem. nothing but special intrest puppets as a whole, if the State wanted to correct many wrongs withing the DWR there would be a LAW made, that would eventually be broken, but it would need to be a law, not a rule, as rules dont mean shlt to the DWR not even there own. BUT a law that NO MEMBER OF THE WILDLIFE BOARD can EVER have held any position within ANY wildlife group, who has EVER been given a tag as a group. have Ever given gifts to ANY MEMBER of the DWR ,( like sheep hunts) . get rid of the wildlife board and start over with NO SPECIAL INTEREST. no sportsman's groups, no cattleman, no bunny huggers.Only unaffiliated sportsmen. same with the racs. how about instead of special interest dictating to us how public animals will be divided and spread around, sportsmen decide.
Click to expand...

So these RAC's and Wildlife Board members will divide and spread around permits for public animals according to how unaffiliated sportsmen choose to do it. Do they do anything else?
 
EFA stop hiding behind somebody other than your "LIST" and lets see your ideas. ill play along , you show me yours, ill show you mine. hows that. and ill make it easy. My experience iij s for Mt. Dutton. but Ill apply MY ideas to any Unit with declining numbers.
 
Here is my list:

When the Paunsaugunt Unit shut down in the 80's it looked much like these other units that have been brought up. Take a look at it now. By shutting down the unit, it solved many of EFA problems that he has brought up.

When you cannot come up with an answer of how to help a deer herd out, you may need to look at closing it a as common sense option. The DWR has let many of these units decline to the only option we have left to save the herd and that is closing them for a few years.

I love to hunt as much as anyone, and hate the thought of my grandkids not being able to experience hunting. But at some point, you have to admit the numbers are wrong, and these units are in terrible shape. The mild winters, are not going to all of a sudden bring back the deer herd.

So with that being said.

1. Shut down these units for 3 years or at least drastically cut tags to a bare minimum. 2,100 tags on the Beaver is not a bare minimum.
2. Do not shoot any doe. There are not enough deer in fields anymore to hurt anyone. On the east side of the Beaver the DWR cut doe tags from 50 to 25. Do they realize that shooting 25 doe is a large percentage of the deer even left on the east side.
3. Quit having Deer and Elk Hunting opportunities from mid-August through the end of December. And then the DWR says the deer are going into the winter looking skinny. My heck you would be skinny also if I chased you around in the mountains for 5 months.
4. Limit road access so that some of these deer have a fighting chance of survival.
5. Length of hunts need to be shortened so as to give these deer some sort of rest. Archery is over a month long and needs to be cut short. Muzzle and Rifle hunts need to be cut to 5 days or less. and for heck sakes why are we now adding another late season muzzle hunt to continue to chase and kill more bucks. LET THE DEER REST, THEY MAY NOT LOOK SO SKINNY GOING INTO WINTER.
6. The Beaver unit does not need any habitat help, what it needs is deer to eat what the unit has to offer.

The DWR only started cutting tags on the Beaver unit a year ago. This problem did not just start, but has been going on for several years, and it will not just all of a sudden recover in one year with a mild winter. It is a shame that all of these units have reached this point, but it has not been the fault of many of us who have tried to warn them. I like Dog Valley Mule have watched this happening for years.
 
For the Beaver, Southwest Desert, Mt Dutton, Monroe, and other units.
1- No late Muzzle hunts.
2- Cut all doe tags.
3- End all hunts on Oct 31.
4- 10 day Archery hunt, 5 day Muzzle hunt, 5 day
General season hunt.
5 - 3 point or better.

6- Cut another 1000 deer tags.
7- Next year split the Beaver in to 2 or 3 smaller
units.
8- Get a better count on the deer.
9- More Bucks to 100 Does, so the does will get
with fawn the first cycle.

This will be a start to help bring our Deer Herd
Back.
 
I like some of your ideas. EFA and others will fight your ideas on closing units, the claim of hunters being upset no opportunity and complaints from us hunters ( Iv heard it before) its nice to see people ( Hunters) having ideas to improve oir herds. Remember this tho, its easy to pick apart someone else ideas to change anything, once written it can be pick and choose how to disassemble the idea. that is why I ask EFA to put his idea here and then ill put mine.
 
Stonefly said:
I like some of your ideas. EFA and others will fight your ideas on closing units, the claim of hunters being upset no opportunity and complaints from us hunters ( Iv heard it before) its nice to see people ( Hunters) having ideas to improve oir herds. Remember this tho, its easy to pick apart someone else ideas to change anything, once written it can be pick and choose how to disassemble the idea. that is why I ask EFA to put his idea here and then ill put mine.
Click to expand...
 
dogvalleymule said:
For the Beaver, Southwest Desert, Mt Dutton, Monroe, and other units.
1- No late Muzzle hunts.
2- Cut all doe tags.
3- End all hunts on Oct 31.
4- 10 day Archery hunt, 5 day Muzzle hunt, 5 day
General season hunt.
5 - 3 point or better.

6- Cut another 1000 deer tags.
7- Next year split the Beaver in to 2 or 3 smaller
units.
8- Get a better count on the deer.
9- More Bucks to 100 Does, so the does will get
with fawn the first cycle.

This will be a start to help bring our Deer Herd
Back.
Click to expand...

Would you consider dropping # 7, if the rest were put in place.

I will sign your petition if so.
 
I think #7 would work, it would help the DWR, to managed deer a lot better, that's just what I think, I would go with a lot of things if it will help the deer herd out, I don't want to see any unit close.
 
Ok Fist in case you think my ideas are new, I proposed this to Lumpy when the committee was creating the Mule Deer plan. It may not be word for word how I proposed it to Lumpy, But the key points are there. Remember, this was MY idea for the Mt. Dutton Unit when it was showing severe decline in my view years ago.

#1 Close the unit for 1 year to all Mule Deer Hunting, allowing hunters to apply for a UNIT SPECIFIC POINT for (insert your unit here)
#2 Year 2 allow 200 Hunters with 1 UNIT SPECIFIC POINT to either apply for Restricted Archery only OR another point for this unit. The restrictions would be on equipment NO CROSSBOWS. the idea behind this would be to have a harvest rate of around 15%-20% success rate, or 30-40 Mule Deer
#3 Year 3 Allow 150 Hunters with 2 USP ( unit specific points) to either apply for Restricted Muzzle loader OR apply for another USP. Once again the Restrictions would be on Equipment, The restriction would be IRON SIGHT ONLY LEAD, ONLY PROJECTILES in other words a more primitive hunt. no single shot long range rifles. The goal for this harvest rate would be 35% or less.
#4 year 4 would allow an honest drawing of all hunters with 3 USP to apply for 150 rifle Deer tags 3 POINT OR BETTER. ALL USP hunts from this point on would be 3 point or better. (the following is a change from my proposal to Lumpy) Hunters with the 3 USP could choose to buy a point for the following year for up to 3 years. ONLY Hunters with 3 USP would qualify to do this, and they would be issued 1 point per year with 75% of tags going to these max point holders, each year until the max point Hunters in the original group have successfully drawn a tag. You would not be allowed to turn tags back in at any time without a doctors statements. and then ONLY one (1) time.
#5 If at any time, the Deer herd EXCEEDS the carrying capacity of the unit by more than 10% allow youth antlerless tags to be sold on rifle only hunts to decrease overpopulating animals
#6 If Deer herds are within 10% of objective AND Buck to Doe Ratios are over 20 bucks to 100 does. Establish an HONEST count using sportsmen to determine numbers. Then and only then can Buck permit numbers increase. BUT only to bring numbers to under 20 bucks per 100 Does. the count should be AFTER any special youth antlerless hunts.
#7 Year 5 could, if numbers are good ,could see limited restricted Archery, Limited Restricted Muzzle, and Rifle. the number of Hunters would be based off herd size. estimate total number figure Buck Doe ratio trying to use the harvest rates from above.
#8 Some will skawk about Restricting Archery and Muzzle loader and not rifles ( offer your realistic ideas here, with emphasis on REALISTIC ) I am open to any suggestions. The Idea is to improve the DEER herd numbers NOT to make it easier for you to harvest a Buck. I wouldn't suggest doing this on all units, there would be numerous units you could apply for tags that didn't have restrictions on equipment to hunt.
#9 IF the herd is strong, and IF buck numbers remain stable a percentage of Buck tags could be used "yearling buck" hunts ,Like spike only Elk hunts. these would be good for a youth hunt. If the youth don't want to hunt a yearling Buck, they can apply for the regular hunts on the unit.
# 10 All means available should be taken to ensure a high Natural production within the unit. High fawn survival is a must. Coyotes , Lions, Bears, ect must be addressed. Remember this is a plan for DEER not Predators, not Elk , not Antelope, Not Mtn Goats.. Just DEER.
now go ahead and tear this idea apart, make fun, show your superior intellect ect. and stay with the status quo.
 
So give it to the RAC and get it approved. Easy peasy.

Or just shut it down completely. After that why would anyone care?

I vote for just closing it down. Give it a good ten years just to make sure every thing is going gang busters.
 
If you do that, when the DWR decides to open it, it would be limited entry, 40 tags for public 20 for expo, auctions, good ol boys ect. then after the herd counts done around panguitch ,antimony, circleville in the fields in december, tag numbers would go up quality down. look at the pauns, elk ridge, ect...remember, my wish is just dutton, if its too much for you, there is panguitch, monro, beaver, boulder ect. btw if it did happen to dutton, i would be to crippeled and stoved up to hunt it again, I figure iv got 5 or 6 years left for hunting.
 
Since your goal is to turn the Dutton (and, apparently, all of the other General Units) into an official Limited Entry Unit, why take 10 years to do it? Just do it by raising the buck to doe ratios to LE levels in 2021!
 
I'm really surprised that predator control is not high on any of your lists. IMHO, predators are the #1 reason why the herds are not growing. You kill 500 - 750 dogs and 20 - 30 lions on the Dutton or Beaver in one year and then half of that the next year and I bet you will see the herds grow.
 
You can increase the buck to doe ratios with out going Limited Entry Unit like the Henry.
All you have to do is go to 3 PT or better, 10 day Archery Hunt, 5 day Muzzle Hunt, 5 day General, no late Muzzle Hunt, No Doe Tags and end all hunts Oct 31.
 
Until you drop efficiency of long range firearms, get rid of antlerless hunts, kill more bears, cougars, and coyotes you'll be losing this battle. I'm sure the houndsman will scorn me for the bear and cougars.
 
Ridgetops, go back and read #10, its all about natural production, ( fawn survival rates ) and I specifically mention coyotes , lions , and bears.
EFA, good use of your tactics to make my idea appear to be something other than what it is, your a true example to the DWR, $FW, Nancy and Chuck, and some young children.
First off ALL general Season units are basically limited entry. to claim otherwise IS A LIE .it now takes 2 -4 preference points to draw he tag.
Second my idea limits harvest numbers by equipment restrictions and bases tag numbers, from success rates , and not total animal guesstimates. basing tag numbers on buck / Doe ratios is plain ridicules, and poor management. if the overall herd numbers are 40 percent below capacity but the Buck / Doe ratio is 18 to 100 adding more hunts and tags is what got us to where we are now. piss poor herd numbers from piss poor managment.
third, where did I say Id like to see this applied to all the units, I plainly stated in at least 1 post above. that when I thought of this Idea I was specifically thinking of Dutton. AND I added it could ,I believe help others, I NEVER said to apply it to all.
Forth, and this is the one that I bet gets your ire up. UNLIKE Limited Enrty Units. I PURPOSELY added the NO WELFARE TAGS for special intrest thieves. I can just hear you and your minions whining if ever a plan like this happened on a unit, and did produce good results. it would sound like a bunch of 3 yr old kids who just had their cookies taken away. also herd health reported by sportsmen, not some DWR flunky from his heated truck driving the frontage roads late november counting rutting dear in the alfalfa.
EFA, you said 10 years , but I proposed hunting the year after 1 year closed Ill do this math for you 1 + 1 = 2 not 10, now I feel we are back to the cookie whining again, but nice try EFA. you also didnt notice year 3 archery and muzzle loader or that by year 4 archery, muzzle loader and rifle . you probably didnt notice the youth hunts I proposed either, I lost you on the no welfare tags probably.
your last comment was raise the buck doe ratio by 2021. I bet you really believe that is the golden answer to all problems hunting Sad thing is I can see you implement it the only way possible., by culling off about 300 does then you be left with 20 bucks and a 20 /100 buck does ratio ... maeby you should get this idea passed with the good ol boys, and do a little whining for an auction tag.. just sayin
And finally EFA. we still haven't heard your ideas for improving any herd numbers in this thread. come on grow a pair and post them up.
 
westerntines, #10 addresses predators in my post, sorry I didn't point that out earlier i was trying to get efa to spew some ideas for this topic, apparently he's a tite lipped expert
 
Stonefly said:
westerntines, #10 addresses predators in my post, sorry I didn't point that out earlier i was trying to get efa to spew some ideas for this topic, apparently he's a tite lipped expert
Click to expand...
Ya, I missed that. You lost my attention on about #8. Like I said, it should be listed #1, not last. Predator control doesn't need to be just addressed but aggressively addressed.
 
dogvalleymule said:
You can increase the buck to doe ratios with out going Limited Entry Unit like the Henry.
All you have to do is go to 3 PT or better, 10 day Archery Hunt, 5 day Muzzle Hunt, 5 day General, no late Muzzle Hunt, No Doe Tags and end all hunts Oct 31.
Click to expand...
Someone please explain to me how 3 point or better helps the deer herd out. PLease give me some actual facts, not this because it allows the bucks to be more older.
 
notdonhunting, allowing yearling bucks to gain an extra year before being slaughtered , would in fact bring up the DWRs precious buck/doe ratio. BUT with those pesky 2 points being unhuntible then the only benefit is on paper, and if its on paper the DWR won't hold back on issuing more tags, or extra hunt " opportunities" in some areas, a good number of these young bucks will never make it to the 3 point stage do to predation. I remember the Bookcliff as a 4 point or better, then a 3 point or better then being closed, and reopening as a Limited Entry. In the area I talk about Dutton , there are genes that have been there for years, mature Bucks that have 3 x4 or 3X2 headgear. in " trophy" areas they will have special managment hunts to eliminate these deer. I do think 3 point or better is a good way to produce older class animals in a healthy herd, but doesnt create a healthy herd . here is an example of what I mean, this is a Buck my grandson took on Dutton, there was a large 3X4 we had scouted,and buy hunted for several days, but couldnt make it happen, this he took this buck after passing on it 3 times earlier.
20200513_074437.jpg
 
I'm pretty sure some readers on this forum ain't gonna like my list, but I like it just fine!

For many years, I've had a heart rhythm condition (actually 4 of them, A-fib, flutter, tachycardia and one that hasn't got a name that I know of.) and I've seen several cardiologists during that time. Because of it, I've done a LOT of research on the human heart, especially how it beats, and I would suspect I know more about that than most of you, but I'm certainly no expert,, nor do I claim to be. My current cardiologist specializes in arrhythmias and if I go out of rhythm and can't get it back in with the technics she has taught me, I don't go to family members and friends who have all given me well meaning advice. I go to the nearest ER and have them call her. I'm not the expert, but I'm smart enough to know I can rely on one that's trained, experienced, is continually keeping up with the latest developments and has my good health at the top of her list.

Having said that, you'll find my list(s) on the internet at:
It deals with every current aspect of deer management discussed on this forum and is flexible enough to allow for any uncontrollable or unforeseeable situation that may come along. And it adequately addresses the 5 criteria (Biological, Legal, Financial, Logistical, Social) needed to make each decision a productive and viable one.

And, along with the Statewide Plan, there are unit plans for EVERY deer unit in the state.

Some of you may consider all of this as old hat, but I see the positive changes in information gathering and the utilization of that new information to improve wildlife management for ALL stakeholders.

Yes, I've seen a decline in the deer herds in my neck of the woods just as you have. But, I don't believe that decline has as much to do with the number of buck tags issued as you appear to believe. And I doubt that reducing those opportunities to hunt bucks in whatever form you decide will make much of a difference in the populations. In fact, the more bucks you leave in the field, the more competition they become for the pregnant does in the winter and spring.

Are there other things I would like to see changed? Sure, but if the DWR, RAC's, Wildlife Board and all you hunters accepted and followed the Deer Plans, most of those issues would be resolved fairly easily. Would it make everyone happy? Nope! But that's NEVER going to happen no matter what we do or don't do. But I'll take my lumps and make the best of it and move on. I hope you do too.
 
Nothing is going to change as long as the idiots running things continue to run it. I love hunting as much as anyone. That being said I’m all in favor of shutting these units down completely. Hell I’ll even go as far as to buy a deer tag to help out with habitat projects. I know the beaver and pahvant well and both units have the potential of producing just as big of bucks as the Henry’s, pausagant, and oak creek. Just piss poor management.
 
Totally agree Giddyup. To late at this point to just turn things around. Closing these units is probably the best option at this time. Otherwise we are all just out hunting something that does not exist.
 
Giddyup said:
Nothing is going to change as long as the idiots running things continue to run it. I love hunting as much as anyone. That being said I’m all in favor of shutting these units down completely. Hell I’ll even go as far as to buy a deer tag to help out with habitat projects. I know the beaver and pahvant well and both units have the potential of producing just as big of bucks as the Henry’s, pausagant, and oak creek. Just piss poor management.
Click to expand...

Yep, they have the potential to produce big bucks like the Henrys, Paunsaugunt and the Oak Creeks alright, along with the 15 to 20 years or points it takes to draw a tag!
 
What the DWR in doing now to managed these Units is not working, why not try some thing else.
1- 3 point or better, to let the smaller have a chance
to get bigger, and become herd bucks.
2- 5 day hunt, to save some of your herd bucks
Because if it snows that last weekend of the 9
day hunt what herd bucks that are left come out
in the sage brush and it becomes a slaughter
on them, on the Beaver Unit.
3- No Doe Tags, increases your deer herd.
4- No late Muzzle Hunt, saves some of your herd
bucks.
5- More cougars and bear tags.

Now why won't this work.
 
Totally agree Dogvalleymule. Lets start trying something different on some of these units and see if we can find out what might work. The same method used on every unit right now is certainly not working.
 
Sorry guys the DWR said MORE deer were killed on the five day hunt. I DONT believe it! I like 3pt or better for 2 years max,
 
Last edited:
I don't believe the DWR, I would like to see their numbers, when they had the 5 day hunt on the Beaver, the next year I seen more deer, so why not give it a try, this 9 day hunt, we're see less deer the next year.
 
I would like to see it start on a wed. and end on the following sunday. they used to start the rifle Elk on a Wed.
 
That what we been try to tell them, don't be a year behind. They should try to get a count on deer in the early spring and then when they are on their winter range and have the count ready for the RAC's and the Big Board when they have their meeting to set how many tags for the units.
 
The current model of finding a group of deer and then coming up with a formula is not an accurate count. The deer need to be actually counted. Use the dedicated hunter program to help with these counts. These dedicated hunters know where the deer are located and can give an actual count instead of an educated guess. I think they would be shocked to see how far off they are in numbers of deer that are actually on the landscape.
 
Stonefly said:
EFA i understand you believe I am wrong about Mt Dutton. I understand, that you have information from the DWR to side with your argument, that I , along with several members of my family, and 4 close friends that hunt with my family..Just plane dont know our butts from a hole in the ground. I dont really care how your info shows it. your info came from the same jackwagons who put in print, there were high numbers of Mule Deer to be hinted throughout the State last year. they changed their tune when public hunters called their bluff. I DO NOT BELIVE THE NUMBERS THEY PUT OUT anymore than there pathetic attempt to promote hunting with RECORD NUMBERS OF MULE DEER THROUGHOUT THE STATE, bs just for your info, that aint rain runnin down your back when you stand next to the DWR. as for my statement of to many tag. if you have info about so many bad dry years, and weather history effecting Deer numbers over the years why didnt they cut tags, why add muzzle loader hunts to a unit, no matter what ratio buck doe if in the last 30 years 19 have been detrimental to deer herds. if a unit has 1500 bucks and 10000 does, no extra hunts, if the same unit 20 years later has 22 bucks and 200 does you can apply for a bonus muzzle loader hunt .I know this is an exaggerated example, but no more exaggerated than the numbers the DWR tries to pass off to the public. I used to be involved with the DWR years ago, no longer. people like you will mention wherwe was I at this RAC meeting, what have I done to help with numbers ect. ect. well I played that game for years, and even when you can gain an inch, it wont take long to loose miles and miles. I am NO longer interested in drinking from the kool aid tank of the DWR. they can blame whatever they want for low Deer numbers, BUT THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO COULD HAVE STOPPED THE DECLINE. and there choice, was to sell tags.
Click to expand...
You may not believe it but it’s true what he said
 

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