Big time baiting... should it be legal? And do you consider it hunting?

So other than season dates please give examples how every western state is using the magnification of shortfalls of hunters. I honestly cannot think of one.

Not trying to be argumentative.

Bill
 
Founder said:
It’s true! I could not believe all the long range rifle booths at the expo. I just don’t understand why it’s a thing. Must be movies dudes watch and want to be like Mark Walberg. I don’t know. It’s beyond me.
Click to expand...
Some of those rifles looked like concept models, but they are very real.
They also look about 15-18 lbs!?
 
Tristate said:
Couple of excellent posts there OpeningDay. Once you get honest with people then you start finding solutions and you are definitely on the right track. The truth is a harvest management model that depends on hunter failure to relieve pressure on the resource but still provide opportunity is a proven failure. Most state agencies have practiced this form of harvest management for decades and it gets a little worse every year.

Here is the truth. There isn't a biologist, scientist, or statistician that can accurately predict failure of hunters. They have never been able to quantify human ingenuity. Therefore their harvest models fail time and time again. They come up with new laws to increase failure and market it to us as what is "fair" to the animal.

The reality is we will still have the same problems until our state wildlife agencies start treating each deer tag as a dead deer and not an opportunity to hunt. Once each tag is recognized as a dead deer then most of the other arguments become pointless. People can go collect their dead deer in September Or November. They can kill it with a bow or a 1000 yard rifle. They can bait it or stalk it. Doesn't matter. Either way the deer is dead and the tag is filled and the management objects become predictable.
Click to expand...


Genius.

Utah would have about 27k deer tags.

We'd lose another 60k hunters.

We bankrupt the DWR. End hunting and fishing as we know it.

You have to give Tri one thing he is consistent

The rolling slaughterhouse on wheels make no pretention that he is a hunter.

He's a trigger.

High fence, corn fed, ranch raised. No problem. He's a killer.

It's why he defends poachers, After all dead is dead, it was gonna die anyway.

He is consistent. Consistently wrong. But he will keep spewing.

But. It's not all his fault. He lives behind a high fence. He lives with corn cannons, and heat controlled blinds. He lives where in order to be a slaughterhouse on wheels, he makes an appointment.

Anything he "knows" about hunting he was told by a guide. His hunting buddies take Visa or MasterCard.

But. He's consistent. I won't take that from him
 
Founder said:
It’s true! I could not believe all the long range rifle booths at the expo. I just don’t understand why it’s a thing. Must be movies dudes watch and want to be like Mark Walberg. I don’t know. It’s beyond me.
Click to expand...

Its a thing because people are now taking pride in how far away they can be when they make a kill instead of how close they can be. As to why that is, i dont know. Seems completely bass ackward to me. Hunting to me is about how close, not how far.
 
huntindad4 said:
So other than season dates please give examples how every western state is using the magnification of shortfalls of hunters. I honestly cannot think of one.

Not trying to be argumentative.

Bill
Click to expand...
There is no shortfall of hunters. They are restricting successful tools that hunters use to kill animals. I think something is getting lost in translation.

Some states restrict baiting. Others position seasons for higher failure rates. Some restrict use of decoys. Etc. Etc. Etc.
 
"Utah would have about 27k deer tags."

Maybe less. Maybe more.

"We'd lose another 60k hunters."

Could happen.

"We bankrupt the DWR."

Nope

"End hunting and fishing as we know it."

Yep. You broke it by kicking the can down the road. Now its worse than you could have imagined.

"You have to give Tri one thing he is consistent"

It's funny how truth always has that characteristic. It's consistent.

"He is consistent. Consistently wrong. But he will keep spewing."

What's amazing is you haven't matured to a point of understanding this isn't about "right" or "wrong".
 
Go on Hoss, Grizzly, and Slam. Yall can go sit together and tell each other "yes" until you are blue in the face. You poor fellas got your feelings hurt because someone told you "no". See ya.

People like you will cannibalize each other eventually.
 
Tristate said:
Letshunt,

Nice story. Thanks for sharing. I just want to get this straight. You know somebody who shot a deer off a pile of apples. It was a big deer. So we should ban baiting???????

So should we ban everything that results in the death of a big deer?????? Is the whole point of getting a deer tag to not kill a deer or to only kill a small deer by the means which you approve?
Click to expand...

So, if the sole objective is to harvest a certain number of deer every year, then it shouldn't matter the method? Then why not allow spot lighting at night or helicopter gunning? A dead deer is a dead deer as long as the quota gets met? After all this is freedom loving America?
 
Tristate said:
Go on Hoss, Grizzly, and Slam. Yall can go sit together and tell each other "yes" until you are blue in the face. You poor fellas got your feelings hurt because someone told you "no". See ya.

People like you will cannibalize each other eventually.
Click to expand...
No one has told ME "No" to anything here, nor have I asked.
You want everyone to agree with you and when they don't, you whine trying to get an answer that will never satisfy you unless you quote your own words.
It must be a lonely place in your soul.
Peace out ?
 
eelgrass said:
So, if the sole objective is to harvest a certain number of deer every year, then it shouldn't matter the method? Then why not allow spot lighting at night or helicopter gunning? A dead deer is a dead deer as long as the quota gets met? After all this is freedom loving America?
Click to expand...


Like I stated before Eelgrass, issues of public safety also influence game laws. The two examples you stated might be restricted because of that. Also you don't want to endanger the entire health of the herd. So if it looks like a certain practice is endangering the herd it can also be restricted.
 
"No one has told ME "No" to anything here, nor have I asked."

"No" was a simplification of someone disagreeing with you. I guess you were incapable of understanding that.


"You want everyone to agree with you and when they don't, you whine trying to get an answer that will never satisfy you unless you quote your own words."

Says the guy who talked trash about other hunters, called them names, and then alluded to ignoring them. A couple of people here had regular discussions with me. Maybe you didn't see those because they told you "no" one time and so now you ignore them? There's more to this thread than yourself and your desire to control people. I don't look for people to agree with me. I AM LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CHANGE A SYSTEM THEY KNOW IS BROKEN. I want hunters to quit trying to control each other and actually start controlling their state agencies and realize that is how you will make this better. But you got your feelings hurt because someone disagreed with you.

"It must be a lonely place in your soul.
Peace out ? "

Not really. I got me some Jesus! Best I can tell he believes in freedom.
 
Tristate said:
"No one has told ME "No" to anything here, nor have I asked."

"No" was a simplification of someone disagreeing with you. I guess you were incapable of understanding that.


"You want everyone to agree with you and when they don't, you whine trying to get an answer that will never satisfy you unless you quote your own words."

Says the guy who talked trash about other hunters, called them names, and then alluded to ignoring them. A couple of people here had regular discussions with me. Maybe you didn't see those because they told you "no" one time and so now you ignore them? There's more to this thread than yourself and your desire to control people. I don't look for people to agree with me. I AM LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CHANGE A SYSTEM THEY KNOW IS BROKEN. I want hunters to quit trying to control each other and actually start controlling their state agencies and realize that is how you will make this better. But you got your feelings hurt because someone disagreed with you.

"It must be a lonely place in your soul.
Peace out ? "

Not really. I got me some Jesus! Best I can tell he believes in freedom.
Click to expand...

I find it profound that you choose to argue the use of apple piles and the freedom to kill however one sees fit without government interference and "change a broken system" in one discussion ?
 
slamdunk said:
I find it profound that you choose to argue the use of apple piles and the freedom to kill however one sees fit without government interference and "change a broken system" in one discussion ?
Click to expand...


You are exaggerating but to a certain extent, yes.
 
Slamdunk,

If you have a tag and another guy has a tag and there are two mature bucks to kill and he kills his over a pile of apples, what's the problem. Do you not get to keep hunting however you want for the other buck?
 
Alright. Miranda Lambert threw me off track last night, but lets get back on... Id like to go back to allocations. so said unit wants (100) dear dead, but historically only 25% of hunters are successful. So DWR issues (400) tags to get those (100) deer dead. What happens if on any given year, those (400) tag holders are lucky and come out of there with a 50% success year. Now we just took double the objective of (100) dead deer. We all know that this happens.. We also know that the following year, they are still issuing the same (400) tags. Maybe I am completely off my rocker, but how and why can't tag allocations and management strategies be unit based and yearly?
 
Or how about moving the rifle elk hunt out of the peak of the rut. No other state does that....Or the dedicated hunter program no other state does that.....let's wrap this state in so much red tape our youth lose interest. That is logical, that will ensure our hunting heritage is preserved when nobody is left or interested in hunting.
 
Maybe we can close all of our wilderness areas off to NR unless they have a guide because it's not fair they get to hunt it. It must be a good idea if Wyoming does it right?
 
I have never seen Tit for Tat ever solve a problem. I've seen it create a few though.

" Maybe I am completely off my rocker, but how and why can't tag allocations and management strategies be unit based and yearly?"

Very interesting point you make here.
 
Tristate said:
There is no shortfall of hunters. They are restricting successful tools that hunters use to kill animals. I think something is getting lost in translation.

Some states restrict baiting. Others position seasons for higher failure rates. Some restrict use of decoys. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Click to expand...

Nope I understood. I just used your words from a post above I thought it might prevent any misunderstanding.

You answered the question. With the one I already mentioned (season dates) the topic at hand (baiting) which I left out because it was kinda a give , being the original topic of the thread. And then you said decoys which I didn't know was illegal anywhere (so i guess i learned something there) and then finished up with etc. etc. etc.

Got it

Bill
 
huntindad4 said:
Perfectly sporting.....

Doesn't look like baiting works very good at all.....

I love the arguments that we are chipping away at our sport if we attack another hunters method of take.

I have posed this here before and got zero response but here goes again.

Why not sell a tag to every hunter who wants to hunt in Utah then open the season the 3rd weekend in August. Have a quota for each herd or unit in the state. Once the quota for a unit fills it is closed for the year. The tags are for one deer in any area of the state. So if the quota fills on the Henries you go elsewhere next.

Here is the best part.... EVERY HUNTER gets to choose how he hunts. Not the state,not the Antis and NOT OTHER HUNTERS, because this is what we are trying to avoid, right?

So rifle, bow , muzzleloader, bait, daytime at 1500 yards with a rifle, 200 yards with a bow or 600 with a muzzleloader with a 20 power scope.

From an airplane or your vehicle.

At night with a spotlight, why not?

Pathetic...

Bill
Click to expand...


So up the thread a ways I posted this proposal...haha. if it is not already obvious I was being facetious.

The only person to attempt to address it was tristate. Who basically didnt shoot it down.

I really wonder why people have the feeling they have about the methods we use to take game. You know it's not sporting or it is etc.

So my (fake and drastic) proposal would solve the opportunity problem with no tag limit and it appeases those who wanna hunt their way even to the extreme. It doesnt overharvest (if fish and game can get people to stop at the quotas) so what's wrong with it, in your opinions?

Bill
 
Honestly I don't see Many issues with your idea Huntindad. I think it could use some tweaking to offer unit tags under the same rule so certain units can be managed for antler and maturity while others are managed for populace. That way a variety of goals might be met for a variety of hunters.
 
Tristate said:
Slamdunk,

If you have a tag and another guy has a tag and there are two mature bucks to kill and he kills his over a pile of apples, what's the problem. Do you not get to keep hunting however you want for the other buck?
Click to expand...

From the 1000ft view on the subject, I will most definitely entertain you with a nod of "Yes".

But from the realistic 30,000ft scope of things, and you being a former biologist, I would certainly think you would not look quite so narrowly.
 
so banning bait on Public land BUT is ok to bait on Private
The CWMU'S will love it and send you a Christmas card every year,
I don't hunt deer the same way I did in the 70's or the 90's.
But I still hunt them every chance I get by drawing a tag.
 
"From the 1000ft view on the subject, I will most definitely entertain you with a nod of "Yes".

But from the realistic 30,000ft scope of things, and you being a former biologist, I would certainly think you would not look quite so narrowly. "


And there is one of the great problems Slamdunk. I agree that I am looking narrowly at this. Part of our problem is trying to satisfy all the variables in the model and its not happening anymore.

I look at it as this. THE DEER COMES FIRST. Once we satisfy the needs of the herd in both long and short terms then we can start tweaking the system to benefit the hunters. We have gotten kind of skewed to where now we fight over deer tags before we fight for the deer. If you want deer hunting to get better that will have to change for everyone.
 
Tristate said:
"From the 1000ft view on the subject, I will most definitely entertain you with a nod of "Yes".

But from the realistic 30,000ft scope of things, and you being a former biologist, I would certainly think you would not look quite so narrowly. "


And there is one of the great problems Slamdunk. I agree that I am looking narrowly at this. Part of our problem is trying to satisfy all the variables in the model and its not happening anymore.

I look at it as this. THE DEER COMES FIRST. Once we satisfy the needs of the herd in both long and short terms then we can start tweaking the system to benefit the hunters. We have gotten kind of skewed to where now we fight over deer tags before we fight for the deer. If you want deer hunting to get better that will have to change for everyone.
Click to expand...
"THE DEER COMES FIRST. Once we satisfy the needs of the herd in both long and short terms then we can start tweaking the system to benefit the hunters."

Maybe I'm missing something here but to me this sounds like you're saying the animal deserves a "fair chance." The very thing you criticized earlier and said sounds like something anti's would say.
 
Tristate said:
"From the 1000ft view on the subject, I will most definitely entertain you with a nod of "Yes".

But from the realistic 30,000ft scope of things, and you being a former biologist, I would certainly think you would not look quite so narrowly. "


And there is one of the great problems Slamdunk. I agree that I am looking narrowly at this. Part of our problem is trying to satisfy all the variables in the model and its not happening anymore.

I look at it as this. THE DEER COMES FIRST. Once we satisfy the needs of the herd in both long and short terms then we can start tweaking the system to benefit the hunters. We have gotten kind of skewed to where now we fight over deer tags before we fight for the deer. If you want deer hunting to get better that will have to change for everyone.
Click to expand...

So then baiting deer with a non native food source that lures them away from their normal, natural and digestion habits is "putting deer first"?
 
So killing them from 3 ridges away with a sniper rifle is putting the deer first? This can go on for days. All people don't agree with long range hunting, but we are not lobbying against those guys because we don't agree with their style of "hunting" the same reasons you want to ban bait can be used against your style of hunting whatever that may be. If it is something you don't agree with you don't want anybody else to be able to do it, and that is the mentality that rubs people the wrong way IMO
 
Bocephus said:
So killing them from 3 ridges away with a sniper rifle is putting the deer first? This can go on for days. All people don't agree with long range hunting, but we are not lobbying against those guys because we don't agree with their style of "hunting" the same reasons you want to ban bait can be used against your style of hunting whatever that may be. If it is something you don't agree with you don't want anybody else to be able to do it, and that is the mentality that rubs people the wrong way IMO
Click to expand...
You cannot tell a person they can't shoot over a certain yardage, but you CAN ban baiting.
 
Yes. That is the deer first. And no, it has nothing to do with "fairness".

Bocephus,

You can put a restriction on shooters of any weapon if they draw blood then the deer is dead and the tag fulfilled.


"You cannot tell a person they can't shoot over a certain yardage, but you CAN ban baiting."


You CAN ban scopes or certain types of scopes. You could even ban range finders.

I am not saying to ban them but I am saying you could choke the life out of the long range shooters pretty quick with that one.
 
No, but you can restrict scope magnification, range finders etc. etc. etc. My point is those things are "ok" because that is the way you like to hunt.....don't be selfish Slam:)
 
Yea but to my knowledge no western state has any sort of law of sorts in the hunting guidelines against scope magnification to limit long range shooting. (I could be wrong i'm not too familiar with a few of the states). Where as most states (Except Utah) have specific guidelines either banning baiting or limiting to what animals can and can't be baited and when.
 
Bocephus said:
No, but you can restrict scope magnification, range finders etc. etc. etc. My point is those things are "ok" because that is the way you like to hunt.....don't be selfish Slam:)
Click to expand...
FYI.....I have taken 3 animals with my 338 Lapua.
Two muley bucks and an Alaskan black bear, ALL were less than 80 yard shots.

I do not condone "long range killing" whatsoever, whether I am considered a "long range shooter" or not ?
 
I don’t understand why people are debating with Tri. He doesn’t live here. He has absolutely zero say on what goes on with Utah game. Unless I missed something and he is a resident he has no opinion. And after reading all of this nonsense thank the lord almighty that as of right now Texas has zero say on what we do with our game.
 
scopenstalk said:
I don’t understand why people are debating with Tri. He doesn’t live here. He has absolutely zero say on what goes on with Utah game. Unless I missed something and he is a resident he has no opinion. And after reading all of this nonsense thank the lord almighty that as of right now Texas has zero say on what we do with our game.
Click to expand...
Texas is the nation's leader in baiting and high fence hunting....aka "killing" so it stands to reason his rationale.
 
Cass said:
Yea but to my knowledge no western state has any sort of law of sorts in the hunting guidelines against scope magnification to limit long range shooting. (I could be wrong i'm not too familiar with a few of the states). Where as most states (Except Utah) have specific guidelines either banning baiting or limiting to what animals can and can't be baited and when.
Click to expand...


And that's kind of what I am talking about. We have to change our thinking. Who cares if the other states ban things once the deer come first.
 
Anyone who knows me and or has followed my many posts about Utah's declining deer numbers knows full well my stances and concerns about today's gadgetry.

FOR THE RECORD.....I am NOT apposed to putting the brakes on "long range or extended range weaponry" for hunting purposes.
I would love to see us go back to traditional muzzleloaders, as well as limit archery and rifles with gadgetry that make "long shots" chip shots.

But having said that......someone on this thread mentioned that the percentage of deer killed over bait is less that 5%.
I would dare say that the percentage of deer killed over 500 yards is also a mere 5%, especially considering there are 90k hunters in the field.
True long range shooters are about as common as baiters, but they are extremely effective at what they do and how they do it.

But, baiting and longer reaching weapons are not what is causing our deer to decline.
Does it have any impact at all?
Yes I believe it does, but our issues go far beyond those factors.
Some of those other factors we cannot combat like urban sprawl and loss of winter range, massive wildfires and loss of critical habitat, extremely high motor vehicle collisions, excessive predation issues, just to name a few.
But I am not against working WITH those issues even when it will affect me personally.

I do not have a problem with cutting tags and or implementing antler point restriction temporarily to help improve numbers.

One thing is true.....we CANNOT continue down this current path, period.
 
Tristate said:
And that's kind of what I am talking about. We have to change our thinking. Who cares if the other states ban things once the deer come first.
Click to expand...
Tri
Enlighten us how YOU want us to change our thinking.
You have already told us your feelings on being governed and that you want total freedom to kill your game without restrictions.
Tell me again how that puts "deer first"??
 
Rudy Guilianni had a theory of law enforcement. The broken window theory.

Basically, you don't look past minor petty crap because those same folks would "graduate" to more serious crap.

Have you seen Doyle or WLH etc pics?

They are posing with LR rifles, and we know about the baiting.

So. You take baiting. Then you take the next step, and so on and so on.

The average guy with a 9-5 doesn't have the time or $$ to spend the summer hauling apples.

Doyle does. WLH does. Heatons do.

You have to start with the easiest, lowest hanging fruit.

FLIR is easy. Baiting is easy. Trail cams after hunts are harder. LR is harder.


But you know what's even harder? Sitting home due to tag cuts while the outfitters, and their clients bait it up, LR, and have more cams than hollywood.

You know bait is bullshit due to the lack of dudes with dead deer sitting on a bait pike pic.

The same outfitters that dump truckloads if apples, yet NEVER show it, WILL pose with an LR set up.

"Merica" just don't cut it when we ate staring tag cuts in the face.
 
slamdunk said:
Tri
Enlighten us how YOU want us to change our thinking.
You have already told us your feelings on being governed and that you want total freedom to kill your game without restrictions.
Tell me again how that puts "deer first"??
Click to expand...


Ignore button slam. There are good discussions to have, and thoughtful disagreements.

Tri does neither. He just wastes your time, and energy, so your tired and pizzed, when good conversations are to be had
 
Slam.

What if, we presented to DWR, a list. FLIR, BAIT, LR, CAMS, etc. What do u think the odds are of them adopting at least one?

Could we get every one to give up a little?

The idea of losing more hunters, to keep gadgets just blows my mind.

What is the hurdle? Guides? Industry?
 
Cass said:
Wait there's an ignore button?! ?
Click to expand...


Click on the name, it pulls it up.

I thought arguing with Tri would expose guys to all the stupid arguments and ideas out there.

At some point it goes so far into clown territory, no one sees the stupidity, they just see "na uh" or "what if"

That's fine when your sitting on the pit in the morn. But there are a lot of smart folks with different view points that are good to hash things out with.

Nothing out of Houstin fits that description.
 
hossblur said:
Slam.

What if, we presented to DWR, a list. FLIR, BAIT, LR, CAMS, etc. What do u think the odds are of them adopting at least one?

Could we get every one to give up a little?

The idea of losing more hunters, to keep gadgets just blows my mind.

What is the hurdle? Guides? Industry?
Click to expand...
Trust me when I say this Hoss, these things ARE being discussed at a higher level than just a handful of unhappy individual voices at local area RAC meetings, these things are being discussed by very concerned "groups" of various committees with real influence.

However.....the Division goes into brain meltdown when too many things hit them at once because it's a slow fight and they like to hammer one nail at a time.
The baiting issue is actually further along than many think.
 
And the truth comes out haha. 100% you are butthurt the biggest bucks in the state are being killed with arrows over bait. Lock it up, we came to the conclusion!
 
Notice how the pro-baiters don't even really defend baiting? They instead focus on changing the issue to something unrelated.

Baiting is banned for other species in Utah and for big game elsewhere, but they try and say it can't be done because long range guns can't be banned? They're totally unrelated issues.

For those that say it has to remain legal on private property... Night shooting and weapon restrictions are still illegal on private property. Certainly baiting can be too.

This really isn't a hard concept. Hunters in the surrounding states are good enough hunters to do it without baiting, I'm sure hunters on the Pauns can learn it too!
 
haha Grizz don't drag this out, we just came to the conclusion. Don't change the subject. Lock it up Founder, put us out of our misery kicking this dead horse!
 
Bocephus said:
And the truth comes out haha. 100% you are butthurt the biggest bucks in the state are being killed with arrows over bait. Lock it up, we came to the conclusion!
Click to expand...

Wrong assessment, no one is butthurt or jealous.
We could all stoop to that level and shoot deer over apple piles in the desert.

I'll say it again for the last time.....

"My position on baiting comes from the pimping of our wildlife on public lands.
I am not ok with MY deer being lured away from its natural food sources and into "secret hideaways" riddled with camera's and shooters waiting in blinds to spend $30k to kill them.
 
Hey grizzly!

Quit Beating around the Bush!

Replace 'Pro' with 'Mastur'!




grizzly said:
Notice how the pro-baiters don't even really defend baiting? They instead focus on changing the issue to something unrelated.

Baiting is banned for other species in Utah and for big game elsewhere, but they try and say it can't be done because long range guns can't be banned? They're totally unrelated issues.

For those that say it has to remain legal on private property... Night shooting and weapon restrictions are still illegal on private property. Certainly baiting can be too.

This really isn't a hard concept. Hunters in the surrounding states are good enough hunters to do it without baiting, I'm sure hunters on the Pauns can learn it too!
Click to expand...
 
slamdunk said:
Wrong assessment, no one is butthurt or jealous.
We could all stoop to that level and shoot deer over apple piles in the desert.

I'll say it again for the last time.....

"My position on baiting comes from the pimping of our wildlife on public lands.
I am not ok with MY deer being lured away from its natural food sources and into "secret hideaways" riddled with camera's and shooters waiting in blinds to spend $30k to kill deer.
Click to expand...


Nope that's THEIR deer.

You want your opinion to grab attention and the powers that be pay attention to you?. Start paying out what YOUR deer is worth.
 
Tristate said:
Nope that's THEIR deer.

You want your opinion to grab attention and the powers that be pay attention to you?. Start paying out what YOUR deer is worth.
Click to expand...

You don’t understand how wildlife policy is set up. Wildlife is held in trust by the state, for the states residents. It is in FACT his deer as well as any other residents until said deer is killed. At that point the carcass becomes the hunters property. You have zero opinion sir. You don’t live here. I will argue with someone from my state about issues because they have a right to argue about the deer they are part owner of. You do not have any legal right whatsoever to our deer. Go hunt a mouflon sheep or something in your home state.
 
These stupid debates are divisive and only tear us apart. We can't all agree on everything, but nothing good ever comes out of these threads. At the end of the day we are all hunters that are passionate about the same thing. I don't care how you hunt if you are out enjoying it with your friends and family. Baiting, long range guns, trail cams whatever take it all, but shouldn't we all be fighting for what we love to do instead of against each other? It's fun to go back and forth, but it really does none of us any good. In fact it hurts us.

It's not the 50's 60's or 70's or the "good old days" those era's had their issues as well, but the internet and social media BS wasn't around to expose it like it is today. I like to bait because it gives me an opportunity to take my kids out and they get to have close encounters with elk, deer, bear, birds, chipmunks and whatever else comes in while I'm spending quality time with my family in a treestand or blind. I've killed two bears over bait, I have yet to kill an ungulate, but will not hesitate if the chance comes. I have spent hours with my little man watching animals test the wind, circle under our tree, and watching his eyes light up as big as saucers as he watches. I remember hunting bears with my Dad as a kid and had a giant chocolate phase black bear come off the hill to our bait and stand eye to eye with me as I shook like a leaf in my treestand. His nostrils flared, his claws were black and sharp, his beady eyes stared holes through me a mere few feet away. It was awesome, a memory burned into my soul! A long with countless others. I want my kids to have those up close encounters with the animals we love and respect. Baiting is a way for me to introduce them to it, they love it! They don't even care if we kill something, but they will hike their butt off with a load of bait on their little back into a hell hole and be excited to pull the card and see what has been in. I do it for them, I do it to cultivate a father child relationship to pass down the fire.

I'm sure I'll get some smart ass comments on how I'm teaching my kids how to hunt using bait and how it's not ethical blah blah save it for somebody who cares. I don't apologize, I know 2 of my kids already have the passion and fire to HUNT, to KILL, to PROVIDE. When I'm dead my family hunting heritage will live on. My other 2 are too young to understand it yet, but they will. They've learned more sitting in a tree observing wildlife from 10 yards and beating that animals senses than they ever would have from 500-600 yards away looking through a spotting scope. (A lot can be learned from that as well)

This is primarily a rifle driven community, I realize that and I know I may be in the minority give an few exceptions I look up tremendously on this site, but I'm a diehard, purebred bowhunter and always will be. If that offends you you are no friend of mine. It's how I was raised, it's in my blood I couldn't change if I wanted to. I've had the opportunities to creep in on bedded bucks at 13k feet in their bed and slip an arrow through their chest. I've sat for days in a hand dug pit-blind on a waterhole in Colorado waiting for an antelope to get thirsty enough to drink and when he did I killed him, I've belly crawled up to whitetail bucks in the midwest and drilled them in the heart, I've had bull elk bugle in my face just before taking an arrow through their ribs.

I've been blessed with amazing experiences from picking up a bow and arrow that I would never have got any other way. If you have never done it and hunted with it like our ancient ancestors did you are missing out! I love to hunt in any way shape or form, I'm indebted to my Dad and his Dad for teaching me how to be a HUNTER. Don't tell me my way is wrong because it's not your way, we are ONE and of the same, we are all HUNTERS. Let's help each other never forget that!
 
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Bocephus said:
These stupid debates are divisive and only tear us apart. We can't all agree on everything, but nothing good ever comes out of these threads. At the end of the day we are all hunters that are passionate about the same thing. I don't care how you hunt if you are out enjoying it with your friends and family. Baiting, long range guns, trail cams whatever take it all, but shouldn't we all be fighting for what we love to do instead of against each other? It's fun to go back and forth, but it really does none of us any good. In fact it hurts us.

It's not the 50's 60's or 70's or the "good old days" those era's had their issues as well, but the internet and social media BS wasn't around to expose it like it is today. I like to bait because it gives me an opportunity to take my kids out and they get to have close encounters with elk, deer, bear, birds, chipmunks and whatever else comes in while I'm spending quality time with my family in a treestand or blind. I've killed two bears over bait, I have yet to kill an ungulate, but will not hesitate if the chance comes. I have spent hours with my little man watching animals test the wind, circle under our tree, and watching his eyes light up as big as saucers as he watches. I remember hunting bears with my Dad as a kid and had a giant chocolate phase black bear come off the hill to our bait and stand eye to eye with me as I shook like a leaf in my treestand. His nostrils flared, his claws were black and sharp, his beady eyes stared holes through me a mere few feet away. It was awesome, a memory burned into my soul! A long with countless others. I want my kids to have those up close encounters with the animals we love and respect. Baiting is a way for me to introduce them to it, they love it! They don't even care if we kill something, but they will hike their butt off with a load of bait on their little back into a hell hole and be excited to pull the card and see what has been in. I do it for them, I do it to cultivate a father child relationship to pass down the fire.

I'm sure I'll get some smart ass comments on how I'm teaching my kids how to hunt using bait and how it's not ethical blah blah save it for somebody who cares. I don't apologize, I know 2 of my kids already have the passion and fire to HUNT, to KILL, to PROVIDE. When I'm dead my family hunting heritage will live on. My other 2 are too young to understand it yet, but they will. They've learned more sitting in a tree observing wildlife from 10 yards and beating that animals senses than they ever would have from 500-600 yards away looking through a spotting scope. (A lot can be learned from that as well)

This is primarily a rifle driven community, I realize that and I know I may be in the minority give an few exceptions I look up tremendously on this site, but I'm a diehard, purebred bowhunter and always will be. If that offends you you are no friend of mine. It's how I was raised, it's in my blood I couldn't change if I wanted to. I've had the opportunities to creep in on bedded bucks at 13k feet in their bed and slip an arrow through their chest. I've sat for days in a hand dug pit-blind on a waterhole in Colorado waiting for an antelope to get thirsty enough to drink and when he did I killed him, I've belly crawled up to whitetail bucks in the midwest and drilled them in the heart, I've had bull elk bugle in my face just before taking an arrow threw their ribs.

I've been blessed with amazing experiences from picking up a bow and arrow that I would never have got any other way. If you have never done it and hunted with it like our ancient ancestors did you are missing out! I love to hunt in any way shape or form, I'm indebted to my Dad and his Dad for teaching me how to be a HUNTER. Don't tell me my way is wrong because it's not your way, we are ONE and of the same, we are all HUNTERS. Let's help each other never forget that!
Click to expand...

There is a lot I agree with and I appreciate the time it took for you to write your post. I do, however, disagree with the general premise that hunters are being harmful for regulating methods and means of taking wildlife. In fact, I think it's exactly our job to do so. And ending practices like baiting and trail cams are some of the avenues we as hunters have an obligation to exercise.
 
Hey Bo?

Can You Post us a Pic of your Fred Bear?


Bocephus said:
These stupid debates are divisive and only tear us apart. We can't all agree on everything, but nothing good ever comes out of these threads. At the end of the day we are all hunters that are passionate about the same thing. I don't care how you hunt if you are out enjoying it with your friends and family. Baiting, long range guns, trail cams whatever take it all, but shouldn't we all be fighting for what we love to do instead of against each other? It's fun to go back and forth, but it really does none of us any good. In fact it hurts us.

It's not the 50's 60's or 70's or the "good old days" those era's had their issues as well, but the internet and social media BS wasn't around to expose it like it is today. I like to bait because it gives me an opportunity to take my kids out and they get to have close encounters with elk, deer, bear, birds, chipmunks and whatever else comes in while I'm spending quality time with my family in a treestand or blind. I've killed two bears over bait, I have yet to kill an ungulate, but will not hesitate if the chance comes. I have spent hours with my little man watching animals test the wind, circle under our tree, and watching his eyes light up as big as saucers as he watches. I remember hunting bears with my Dad as a kid and had a giant chocolate phase black bear come off the hill to our bait and stand eye to eye with me as I shook like a leaf in my treestand. His nostrils flared, his claws were black and sharp, his beady eyes stared holes through me a mere few feet away. It was awesome, a memory burned into my soul! A long with countless others. I want my kids to have those up close encounters with the animals we love and respect. Baiting is a way for me to introduce them to it, they love it! They don't even care if we kill something, but they will hike their butt off with a load of bait on their little back into a hell hole and be excited to pull the card and see what has been in. I do it for them, I do it to cultivate a father child relationship to pass down the fire.

I'm sure I'll get some smart ass comments on how I'm teaching my kids how to hunt using bait and how it's not ethical blah blah save it for somebody who cares. I don't apologize, I know 2 of my kids already have the passion and fire to HUNT, to KILL, to PROVIDE. When I'm dead my family hunting heritage will live on. My other 2 are too young to understand it yet, but they will. They've learned more sitting in a tree observing wildlife from 10 yards and beating that animals senses than they ever would have from 500-600 yards away looking through a spotting scope. (A lot can be learned from that as well)

This is primarily a rifle driven community, I realize that and I know I may be in the minority give an few exceptions I look up tremendously on this site, but I'm a diehard, purebred bowhunter and always will be. If that offends you you are no friend of mine. It's how I was raised, it's in my blood I couldn't change if I wanted to. I've had the opportunities to creep in on bedded bucks at 13k feet in their bed and slip an arrow through their chest. I've sat for days in a hand dug pit-blind on a waterhole in Colorado waiting for an antelope to get thirsty enough to drink and when he did I killed him, I've belly crawled up to whitetail bucks in the midwest and drilled them in the heart, I've had bull elk bugle in my face just before taking an arrow through their ribs.

I've been blessed with amazing experiences from picking up a bow and arrow that I would never have got any other way. If you have never done it and hunted with it like our ancient ancestors did you are missing out! I love to hunt in any way shape or form, I'm indebted to my Dad and his Dad for teaching me how to be a HUNTER. Don't tell me my way is wrong because it's not your way, we are ONE and of the same, we are all HUNTERS. Let's help each other never forget that!
Click to expand...
 
Bo.

If you have to give up one. Are you giving up the bait? Or a tag?

You have to be blind to not see what's coming.

There are private groups out doing counts right now. Guys don't believe deer #.

Guys are looking around and can see deer are struggling. Roads are being built houses too.

We can't continue down a path of more and more efficiency, without something giving.

Like you I have kids that hunt. I picked up a bow a few years back because it was obvious that was where more opportunity laid.

I hunted open sight hawkens. I started with a 99 savage open sight. And I currently suck with a bow.

But I still get to hunt. Still get a chance.

These choices are rapidly headed our way.

Keep the gadgets and cut the tags.

Or lose the gadgets and keep the tag.

The next wave of wireless cams, GPS guided projectiles, auto aiming scopes, improved satellite, is right around the corner.

Do you want a chance to hunt? Or do you want to sit home for years so you can have the gadgets (bait)?

The pros don't care if YOU sit. They are happy to use anything in the tool chest. Time is money. The faster the client kills, the faster they bring a new guy in.
 
Anyone that has been around baiting for any length of time knows where it ends up, it’s ruined a lot of free range Deer hunting in Mexico. I had a friend hunting Deer in Utah this year, waited along time for the tag and ended up eating his tag, that’s hunting.It seems to be successful in one of the great mule deer units anymore, trail cameras,baiting,outfitters and 20 spotters, maybe a couple of ugly run ins with other guides along the hunt and everyone after the same three deer. Maybe I am just getting older, or maybe I just don’t need to know everything that’s out in the woods before I get there. That’s not the kind of hunt I have been waiting on for 25 years. Slam I’m with you, let’s get back to hunting.
 
grizzly said:
For those that say it has to remain legal on private property... Night shooting and weapon restrictions are still illegal on private property.
Click to expand...
You gored my ox, and lose me here. My objection is on libertarian grounds. If I want to plant apple trees on the south 40 and shoot a deer under one (properly licensed) thats my business. I am sympathetic to arguments against commercial exploitation.

I simply don't want law enforcement and the courts having this much potential power to strip my civil liberties.
 
hawkbill said:
Anyone that has been around baiting for any length of time knows where it ends up, it’s ruined a lot of free range Deer hunting in Mexico. I had a friend hunting Deer in Utah this year, waited along time for the tag and ended up eating his tag, that’s hunting.It seems to be successful in one of the great mule deer units anymore, trail cameras,baiting,outfitters and 20 spotters, maybe a couple of ugly run ins with other guides along the hunt and everyone after the same three deer. Maybe I am just getting older, or maybe I just don’t need to know everything that’s out in the woods before I get there. That’s not the kind of hunt I have been waiting on for 25 years. Slam I’m with you, let’s get back to hunting.
Click to expand...

Ba'am........this is EXACTLY what I am talking about right here!

Tri.....I know you don't agree because you reside in Texas where baiting and canned hunts are the norm.
Keep it there and contain it like the virus it is.
"There's nothing wrong with you, you were raised this way and just don't know any better" ?
 
I agree that private land is an entirely different issue, but one thing stands clear.....PLO's do not own the wildlife that inhabit those properties.

Would it be ok if Wade Heaton continues to dump piles of apples for the sole purpose of luring deer on his world famous CWMU in the Paunsaugunt if it is illegal on the public lands that surround it?
 
And as a parting shot........my thoughts on whether I am a slob hunter if I choose to shoot a deer under my apple trees.

It is foolish to describe that as lazy. For decades I made tough decisions, worked hard, and deliberately created a circumstance where I could secure and enhance a little piece of quality habitat to retire on as an old man. I put the work in and am entitled to the full enjoyment my apple trees bring. I don't feel the same way when my neighbors pimp out their apple trees for $500 a gun.

For the record no deer have been killed under my apple trees. Russian olives another story. You gunna call them bait also? Careful, you might be an old man sitting under those apple trees someday.

Start with public ground. The private landowners seem to be doing a pretty good job of managing things on their lands.

Edit: This post was simultaneous with that above and not in response.
 
slamdunk said:
I agree that private land is an entirely different issue, but one thing stands clear.....PLO's do not own the wildlife that inhabit those properties.

Would it be ok if Wade Heaton continues to dump piles of apples for the sole purpose of luring deer on his world famous CWMU in the Paunsaugunt if it is illegal on the public lands that surround it?
Click to expand...
If private property adjacent to public attracts animals because it is better habitat, don't destroy the good habitat to level the playing field. If the ag product is dumped on the fence line to lure critters during hunting season, not cool but hard to enforce. You going to tell them whats ag waste, and where they can dump it? (The irony is they are probably taking some kind of tax deduction for those bait piles).

This is the slippery slope. This is starting to sound like the rules of golf.
 
"There's nothing wrong with you, you were raised this way and just don't know any better"

And see that's the difference between you and me. I don't know better. I KNOW DIFFERENT. I don't look down my nose at people who have a different idea on how to get something done. Apparently you missed that lesson in life.

Do you know what I find amusing about this? WHERE I HUNT DEER BAITING ISN'T ALLOWED! :p:p:p

But I realize baiting works in many different scenarios for many different reasons.

Right now my kids hunt over bait. I sit with them. The great thing is they are learning to watch and study deer. Now when we go scouting where I hunt they talk about aging deer then they talk about antlers, then they talk about health. Not just the old there's a buck, blast it, mentality. Two of my kids judge deer age on the hoof better than most grown men I know.

Now I'm not telling you that this is how you should be training your kids. But I am saying don't legislate against the people who do. THERE IS VALUE IN IT.

I'm cool if you think baiting is killing and not hunting. I'm cool if you don't want to do it. I'm not cool with people who's idea of freedom is turning their opinions into law and shoving them down other good people's throats.
 
Bluehair said:
If private property adjacent to public attracts animals because it is better habitat, don't destroy the good habitat to level the playing field. If the ag product is dumped on the fence line to lure critters during hunting season, not cool but hard to enforce. You going to tell them whats ag waste, and where they can dump it? (The irony is they are probably taking some kind of tax deduction for those bait piles).

This is the slippery slope. This is starting to sound like the rules of golf.
Click to expand...

"For the sole purpose of attracting deer"
 
slamdunk said:
"For the sole purpose of attracting deer"
Click to expand...
Won't work. I say its for the sole purpose of disposing of ag waste. And Im going to make you subsidize it by claiming it as a tax deduction. Don't like it, build a fence.

You won't get what you want if you don't start somewhere. Nobody will defend trucking loads of apples onto public lands.
 
slamdunk said:
I agree that private land is an entirely different issue, but one thing stands clear.....PLO's do not own the wildlife that inhabit those properties.

Would it be ok if Wade Heaton continues to dump piles of apples for the sole purpose of luring deer on his world famous CWMU in the Paunsaugunt if it is illegal on the public lands that surround it?
Click to expand...

That is exactly what will happen. Wade is licking his chops reading this, cut out all the competition on public, as he draws more deer into his private hunting preserve.
 
Bluehair, you're conflating two EXTREMELY different subjects... of which the delineation has already been codified both in Utah's turkey regs and every surrounding state's big game baiting ban regs.

Nothing would prevent you from hunting your own apple orchard. Or even an apple tree on public land, if it existed. It simply says you can't place an attractant to lure wildlife, or hunt where you reasonably should have known one was placed.

If a landowner hunted his apple orchard or alfalfa field, he's fine. If he dumps salt and apples outside of normal agricultural practices, he can't hunt there or it's baiting.

I highly recommend you read the code!

There are no "civil liberties" involved with when and where you get to shoot a deer. The idea that every surrounding states has had "rights" stripped that Utah has preserved for the Pauns guides is laughable.

Why some people think this is a difficult and complex subject that shooters and landowners will be unable to survive without, when it's already a proven management method just across the state border is beyond comprehension.
 
Bocephus said:
That is exactly what will happen. Wade is licking his chops reading this, cut out all the competition on public, as he draws more deer into his private hunting preserve.
Click to expand...
If he wants to run plant a couple hundred acres of Granny Smith orchards and put his guys on the edge in a recliner... he'd be completely legal to do so.

He just can't unload them into a pile from a pickup. That's baiting.
 
grizzly said:
Bluehair, you're conflating two EXTREMELY different subjects... of which the delineation has already been codified both in Utah's turkey regs and every surrounding state's big game baiting ban regs.

Nothing would prevent you from hunting your own apple orchard. Or even an apple tree on public land, if it existed. It simply says you can't place an attractant to lure wildlife, or hunt where you reasonably should have known one was placed.

If a landowner hunted his apple orchard or alfalfa field, he's fine. If he dumps salt and apples outside of normal agricultural practices, he can't hunt there or it's baiting.

I highly recommend you read the code!

There are no "civil liberties" involved with when and where you get to shoot a deer. The idea that every surrounding states has had "rights" stripped that Utah has preserved for the Pauns guides is laughable.

Why some people think this is a difficult and complex subject that shooters and landowners will be unable to survive without, when it's already a proven management method just across the state border is beyond comprehension.
Click to expand...

Some people can't interpret "for the sole purpose of attracting game" ?
 
What I find amazing is there doesn't ever seem to be a law Grizzly doesn't like. Isn't he the same fella trying to outlaw our lead bullets??? Grizzly want s to make you do what grizzly says and if he doesn't get his way he's going to get the law to force you.
 
Bluehair said:
If private property adjacent to public attracts animals because it is better habitat, don't destroy the good habitat to level the playing field. If the ag product is dumped on the fence line to lure critters during hunting season, not cool but hard to enforce. You going to tell them whats ag waste, and where they can dump it? (The irony is they are probably taking some kind of tax deduction for those bait piles).

This is the slippery slope. This is starting to sound like the rules of golf.
Click to expand...


Seems like you only see the "slippery slope" you don't like.

If say we slid down that slope. It wasn't a secret that deer like orchards. Nothing new. Been happening centuries.

Tgen we slid to dudes loading up the flatbed and dumping apples.

So where did that slippery slope start?

Yes. There will ALWAYS be that guy who decides to push the limits to the razors edge.

And honestly that's the issue. This isn't about you having a few apples that fall on the ground. This is about truckloads of them.
So can you bs and claim some BS line about ag waste? Sure. Of course I can claim your baiting deer.

How many times are you going to go to court to prove otherwise?

Being "cute" goes both ways.
 
I wonder what the Pauns would look like after 3 to 5 years of no baiting. Would there be a noticeable difference in the quantity of big bucks?

I'm currently sitting on 23 LE deer pts and I haven't been in a big rush to burn them. I typically try for a random tag on the Henry's archery hunt. However, if the UDWR prohibits baiting in the future I will definitely consider using them for a Pauns archery hunt since all of the obnoxious outfitter bating would be gone.

Someone told me a year or two ago that certain outfitters will actually buy an entire 52 foot truck trailer full of apples and have them trucked down to the Pauns for their baiting operations! Not sure of the validity, but it wouldn't shock me.
 
Bocephus said:
That is exactly what will happen. Wade is licking his chops reading this, cut out all the competition on public, as he draws more deer into his private hunting preserve.
Click to expand...

So? He's a CWMU. He doesn't have competition.

So in order to "beat" wade, you have to dump 2x as many apples? 5x?

You think when baiting laws pass, dudes won't drop the time on Wade? Every one of his competitors will.

Be kinda hard to prove in court you have an entire orchard, to feed you and the fam.
 
Bwht4x4 said:
I wonder what the Pauns would look like after 3 to 5 years of no baiting. Would there be a noticeable difference in the quantity of big bucks?

I'm currently sitting on 23 LE deer pts and I haven't been in a big rush to burn them. I typically try for a random tag on the Henry's archery hunt. However, if the UDWR prohibits baiting in the future I will definitely consider using them for a Pauns archery hunt since all of the obnoxious outfitter bating would be gone.

Someone told me a year or two ago that certain outfitters will actually buy an entire 52 foot truck trailer full of apples and have them trucked down to the Pauns for their baiting operations! Not sure of the validity, but it wouldn't shock me.
Click to expand...

I'd dare say between the "big three" Outfitters down there, there are about 8-10, 200" bucks taken between the 3 hunts.

Not if, but when baiting is banned, I don't personally think that success rates on "trophy bucks" will drop, it will just require more "hunting" to get it done. The guides down there are not just good, they are great and they know every inch of that land as good as their own backyards. They will have to work a little harder is all.

What it WILL do is help even out the playing field a little, but it will also put more pressure at guzzlers and other water sources.
I know where about 15 guzzlers are located and I assure you there's not a single one that doesn't have at least 4 camera's on them.

Yes there IS drama down there, not just between public hunters and guides, but with guides versus guides.

It's pretty sad really, but it is what it is.
 
15 guzzlers.

Makes you wonder if money was spent across the state how much better the deer herds would be.

It is amazing how much money gets dumped into units a sliver of res hunters will ever touch, while the GS units struggle.

Yeah I know, auction tags, etc.

Just seems like perhaps the % of money spent should correspond to %of hunters.

I know I'm off track
 
% money corresponds to % money. That's reality. If you spent as much time petitioning the gubmint to put guzzlers on the units you hunt you would probably have enough to fill the Mississippi river.
 
I don't buy that their is so much "drama" on any unit that it will impact a guys hunt, unless you are looking for it. I have spent a lot of time on the Pauns specifically over the last 20 years, and have never ran into any of it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen and I don't spend much time around the private off the top either. You think banning bait will change if a guy is a dickhead or not, and improve your overall hunting experience? Honest question.
 
So, since all of you know, or think you know, how all baiting is done and, apparently, have made your decision based on that alone, how about considering my version?

I've been using apples, salt and feed blocks/bricks to bait big game in Utah since we moved back here in 1989. I checked the regulations at the time and there was NOTHING mentioned about it in the proclamation nor in the Utah State Codes, which is still the case. I've been able to harvest many animals and even registering 2 Pope and Young animals (a 74 6/8 pronghorn and a 324 4/8 elk) by honestly, ethically, legally and proudly claiming they all were taken fair chase.

So, how and why do I do it? It's pretty simple. I know I can't naturally outrun, outsee, outhear, or outsmell them, BUT I can outthink them! And that's what I (and you) do.

In my case, I use a treestand (and now a blind) and some camo to stay hidden and keep down my human odor. I limit my movements and noise by wearing soft clothing, sitting on soft seats or pads, dampening my bow noise. AND I use various lures and items to attract and/or calm the animals (urine, cow patties, skunkscreen, decoys, calls and bait.

Over the years I've had various sites on the Zion, Panguitch Lake, Pine Valley, SW Desert, East Canyon and Morgan/S Rich Units, even before they were hunting units. And what do my sites look like?

First off, my "pile" of bait consists of a single block of mineralized salt on the ground or hung on a tree or about two dozen fallen neighborhood apples spread around a 3 to 5 square yard area on the ground. The apples are replaced once or twice a week while the salt/feed blocks are placed only once per year.

And where are they? Waterholes and game trails that the animals already use. It just never made sense to me to try to get them to go to an area they aren't used to. That would make them nervous in my view. And, FWIW, I've never seen a difference in the number of animals that come regardless of whether I'm baiting that year of not. Nor do they change their daily schedule.

So, why do I do it? That's pretty simple too. It gives me a better chance at a close, single, standing, level, broadside, calm animal. Ideally, the perfect shot, right? The blocks are placed behind a tree or large rock or behind a pile of branches I create. That way, they don't see me draw. I have to be a little more careful with the apples, but the animals are usually so focused on the apples at the time that they don't pay much attention to anything else. Additionally, I get close looks at other interesting wildlife and that's always fun too.

Now, several of you keep mentioning that we must not be proud of baiting because we don't show the apples in our pictures. I can't speak for others, but I'm not about to post ANY pictures or tell ANY specific stories that the self-appointed internet ethics police are going to make their self-righteous judgements on. I've been there, done that already with my thread "Antlerless deer hunts are bad?" Dec 20, 2017. I've told my stories to friends and family and they have all congratulated me. I've even recruited 2 older neighborhood adults and two grandkids to the hunting lifestyle because they found out about baiting.

I'm all for regulating baiting in some reasonable forms much like bear baiting, but to ban it entirely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and it will come back to bite you/us and, eventually, the animals!

If you have any clarification questions, I'll be happy to answer them. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread.
 
elkfromabove said:
but to ban it entirely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and it will come back to bite you/us and, eventually, the animals!

If you have any clarification questions, I'll be happy to answer them. Otherwise, I'm done with this thread.
Click to expand...

That's probably why deer hunting has been destroyed in Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, Montana, Idaho...

:Sarcastic Face:
 

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