Bonus Pts for Deer, Elk, Antelope

jims

Long Time Member
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One of the main objectives of the Wyo Task Force is that Wyoming residents are concerned that they aren't currently able to draw high demand limited quota tags. Wyo res currently have plenty of opportunity to harvest plenty of big game animals (up to 12 each year) to fill their freezers. The entire 90/10 debate hinges around Wyo res lack of ability to draw limited tags. With Wyo's currently random draw system for E/D/A every applicant has the same chance of drawing each tag. There is no advantage to those that have applied more years and it's possible for hunters to draw back to back tags.

Currently Wyo res have no pref pt option for deer, elk, or antelope. I thought I would create a post that provides examples of Nevada's bonus pt system where applicant's points are squared. Each year an applicant applies for tags their points are squared. I really believe this type of draw system does a great job in states like Nevada and Wyoming where there are relatively few resident hunters. Applicants draw tags fairly frequently and cycle through this draw system fairly quickly.

With the bonus pt system every applicant has the opportunity to draw EVERY tag available; however, those that have been waiting more years have significantly better odds of drawing tags.

I've enclosed draw stats for one E/D/A unit in Nevada to use as examples. I picked high demand areas for Nevada residents.

IMG_5923.jpg


There were 1,247 NV res applicants for only 15 tags. With a random draw the chance of drawing would be 15 in 1,247..or 1 in 83.

Bonus pts have been in place in NV for over 26 years and there were no applicants >12+ years. Applicants with 10+ pts was excellent even with 1,247 applicants vying for 15 tags. Notice that every applicant has a chance to draw EVERY tag and draw odds improve with the increase in years an applicant has applied.

IMG_5926.jpg

There were 1,977 NV res applicants for 70 tags. This would be 1 in 28 chance. Again, the same thing. Those with high pts have excellent chance to draw compared to the 1:28 chance with a random draw.

IMG_5927.jpg

33 is one of the top B&C units in Nevada. There were 1078 applicants for 30 tags. That would be 1:36 chance in a random draw.

Nevada's bonus pt system has been in existence for 26+ years. There highest bonus pt applicant had 16 pts. That tells me the NV bonus pt system is working extremely well. Cycling applicants that draw tags through the system relatively fast. Those NV res with high bonus pts have a great chance to draw tags.
 
Nevada's bonus pt system has been in existence for 26+ years. Notice in the examples above that there aren't many NV res applicants with 15+ years left that are still applying for these high demand tags. That tells me that the NV bonus pt system is doing what it was designed to do by cycling applicants that draw tags through the system fairly fast.

With Wyo's current random draw system for D/E/A draw odds extreme for high demand tags. The same would be true if you look at NV's applicants and number of tags issued in the units I listed. For my examples above the draw odds with a random draw would have been 1:83, 1:28, and 1:36, respectively for elk, deer, and antelope. Your draw odds are good to excellent for drawing these same tags in a few years with a bonus pt system.

Another advantage to NV's bonus pt system is EVERYONE has a chance to draw EVERY tag.
 
There’s a small chance that maybe someone would take you serious if you actually shared your arts and crafts projects in a more visual appealing way. If you do not know how to share your arts and crafts spreadsheet ask another 8 year old in your class. It’s really easy. How can anyone take you serious when you share a spreadsheet that looks like something from a poorly shot horror movie?
 
Correct me if im wrong, doesn’t Nevada have a pretty long waiting period after drawing a tag?
 
As a Nevada resident the whole point system is BS. 18 points for elk and 17 for desert sheep and no tag. And yes there is a waiting period if you draw antelope,elk or sheep. Forget all the damn point systems
b b b but he made a spreadsheet!
 
In my opinion point systems suck. All of them. There's no way to put that **** back in the dog though. Anywhere. All about the$$$, obviously.
Probably not too many are concerned too much, but in WA, years ago, you just put in like four choices for a good bull tag, good buck tag, sheep, goat etc. Now, there's 250 different hunt categories with 250 different app fees. There's bull hunts, qualify elk, buck, quality buck, doe, cow, second deer, ewe, ram, juvenile ram, cow moose, bull moose, goat, conflict goat, master hunter, youth, over 65, on and on, and all have separate app fees and point fees.
 
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The most fair system is where everyone has an equal chance to draw. Just what we already have.

All these bonus/preference systems are fool gold.
They create demand, change behavior and result in point creep.

ride hard, stay hard
 
The entitlement of the Wyoming residents banging this drum is really something….. They’re THE ONLY state where residents can buy OTC tags and hunt 200+ Bucks, and 330 bulls every single year…. Along with the lowest population By FAR in the lower 48. As is, there’s nowhere that’s as generous to residents, with the quality that is there.

Get over it…. There’s not a state, besides Alaska, where Residents or non residents have any kind of real chance at drawing the very few trophy tags that exist. Supply is so much lower than demand in every single state.

You should be thanking your creator that you’re able to live in the last, best place in America, and for the opportunities that you have currently, without bankrupting your Game and Fish.

I know…. Nobody cares…. Save the replies.
 
The entitlement of the Wyoming residents banging this drum is really something….. They’re THE ONLY state where residents can buy OTC tags and hunt 200+ Bucks, and 330 bulls every single year…. Along with the lowest population By FAR in the lower 48. As is, there’s nowhere that’s as generous to residents, with the quality that is there.

Get over it…. There’s not a state, besides Alaska, where Residents or non residents have any kind of real chance at drawing the very few trophy tags that exist. Supply is so much lower than demand in every single state.

You should be thanking your creator that you’re able to live in the last, best place in America, and for the opportunities that you have currently, without bankrupting your Game and Fish.

I know…. Nobody cares…. Save the replies.
Quite the opposite. Your post is pretty much all BS. Then you get all god like mentioning the creator? Isn’t there a commandment that says one shall not covenant thy neighbor? Or some BS like that? Don’t be a hypocrite!
 
The entitlement of the Wyoming residents banging this drum is really something….. They’re THE ONLY state where residents can buy OTC tags and hunt 200+ Bucks, and 330 bulls every single year…. Along with the lowest population By FAR in the lower 48. As is, there’s nowhere that’s as generous to residents, with the quality that is there.

Get over it…. There’s not a state, besides Alaska, where Residents or non residents have any kind of real chance at drawing the very few trophy tags that exist. Supply is so much lower than demand in every single state.

You should be thanking your creator that you’re able to live in the last, best place in America, and for the opportunities that you have currently, without bankrupting your Game and Fish.

I know…. Nobody cares…. Save the replies.

Last I checked there weren't any roadblocks keeping whiney people from moving here. If it's so great why don't you have the u-haul all loaded up and hit the road. Winters are nice and the wind barely blows. I guess it's just better to b#%! and moan about what us residents have that you NR are jealous of. I think it's pretty selfish of you NR wanting 20+ percent of Wyoming tags.
 
Quite the opposite. Your post is pretty much all BS. Then you get all god like mentioning the creator? Isn’t there a commandment that says one shall not covenant thy neighbor? Or some BS like that? Don’t be a hypocrite!
Gotcha SS!!
 
From what I understand there are a lot of Wyo res that are complaining about not being able to draw HIGH DEMAND LIMITED tags. I'm well aware that Wyo res don't lack opportunity and often draw or buy up to a dozen tags/year to fill their freezer.

For those that say point systems suck, here's a few things to consider. Lets take 33 NV antelope in my chart above as an example. In 2011 there were 585 applicants and in 2020 there were 1078 applicants for these same unit 33 tags. That is close to a 50% increase in applicants in 9 years. My guess is that this increase in NV res applicants is likely due to new NV res that have moved to the state and the overall population has grown. I wanted to mention this because with a random draw where every applicant has the same chance to draw tags the draw odd will likely drop every year since there are more new applicants applying for approximately the same number of high demand unit tags. If you think draw odds suck now wait another 20 years and lets see what your say about a random system being fair and a great system in Wyo. With a bonus pt system at least your odds continue to increase every year you apply but everyone still has a fair chance to draw the same tag.

Wyo's population is likely going to continue to grow over the next 20+ years. With my example, the random draw odds for a unit 33 NV antelope tag in 2020 would be 30 tags and 1078 applicants or 1 in 36 chance or 3% chance. It very possibly would take more than 1 lifetime to draw a 33 tag with a random draw with 3% draw odds. As a stark contrast, draw odds are amazing after 8+ of applying for the same tag with bonus pt system. In reality, as more hunters move to NV draw odds will continue to drop below 3% for this tag in a random draw system.

Maddog58 mentioned that he had 18 pts for elk and bonus pt system is BS. One question for Maddog58....now that you have 18 elk bonus pts would you prefer to stay with a bonus pt system or would you rather return to a random draw? My guess is that you have been holding out for one of the toughest units in the state to draw and you would be totally be against losing your 18 pts going to a random draw. I guess that's your choice and not the fault of the NV bonus pt system. You could likely draw several excellent NV bull tags if you didn't apply for tough draw odds units. Maybe you are the most unlucky NV res in the state?

Draw odds are decreasing every year in a random draw system as more and more residents move to Wyo. It sounds like several Wyo res have posted their opposition to waiting periods or any pt system. What happens 20 years from now when you are sitting at home wishing you could draw the same high demand tags that your neighbor has possibly drawn 2 or 3 times? I can guarantee your odds won't improve in the coming years.....even with 90/10!

As I've been saying all along there is likely no perfect draw system but there are quite a few options available that might help a lot of Wyo res draw great high demand limited tags.

Wow, SS! 7 posts since my original post....each one of them very condescending!
 
Bonus points suck. Your odds still get worse every year. With the squaring system you just get swamped out by all the ppl with low pts. Say there's 500 ppl with 2pts =2000 chances, the next year they all got 3pts = 4500 chances and you go from 20 to 21pts.... you still got a really shitty chance. Plus people feel like they're missing out if they don't apply when you have points and everyone puts in their aunts, uncles and 3rd cousins even though they don't hunt to share points. Screw point systems. Limit choices on apps.
 
One of the main objectives of the Wyo Task Force is that Wyoming residents are concerned that they aren't currently able to draw high demand limited quota tags. Wyo res currently have plenty of opportunity to harvest plenty of big game animals (up to 12 each year) to fill their freezers. The entire 90/10 debate hinges around Wyo res lack of ability to draw limited tags. With Wyo's currently random draw system for E/D/A every applicant has the same chance of drawing each tag. There is no advantage to those that have applied more years and it's possible for hunters to draw back to back tags.

Currently Wyo res have no pref pt option for deer, elk, or antelope. I thought I would create a post that provides examples of Nevada's bonus pt system where applicant's points are squared. Each year an applicant applies for tags their points are squared. I really believe this type of draw system does a great job in states like Nevada and Wyoming where there are relatively few resident hunters. Applicants draw tags fairly frequently and cycle through this draw system fairly quickly.

With the bonus pt system every applicant has the opportunity to draw EVERY tag available; however, those that have been waiting more years have significantly better odds of drawing tags.

I've enclosed draw stats for one E/D/A unit in Nevada to use as examples. I picked high demand areas for Nevada residents.

View attachment 47901

There were 1,247 NV res applicants for only 15 tags. With a random draw the chance of drawing would be 15 in 1,247..or 1 in 83.

Bonus pts have been in place in NV for over 26 years and there were no applicants >12+ years. Applicants with 10+ pts was excellent even with 1,247 applicants vying for 15 tags. Notice that every applicant has a chance to draw EVERY tag and draw odds improve with the increase in years an applicant has applied.

View attachment 47902
There were 1,977 NV res applicants for 70 tags. This would be 1 in 28 chance. Again, the same thing. Those with high pts have excellent chance to draw compared to the 1:28 chance with a random draw.

View attachment 47904
33 is one of the top B&C units in Nevada. There were 1078 applicants for 30 tags. That would be 1:36 chance in a random draw.

Nevada's bonus pt system has been in existence for 26+ years. There highest bonus pt applicant had 16 pts. That tells me the NV bonus pt system is working extremely well. Cycling applicants that draw tags through the system relatively fast. Those NV res with high bonus pts have a great chance to draw tags.

Not all of us residents hunt just to fill the freezer. I don't hunt doe antelope or deer. Cow elk yes. You are a greedy guy jims. I like to hunt areas that produce good animals and are close to home so the kids can tag along. Your greed is making you blind. It's all about you and your 20+ percent. If you weren't so greedy maybe you would wait in line and not scam other hunters out of their points. You remind me of a used car salesman.
 
Without a doubt the truly random draw is the most equality based system we can have. Everyone every year has an equal chance as anyone else. There is not need for bonus point, no preference points, hell no waiting periods...

Increase the tag allocation percentage and let us play the odds as we chose every year...

Oh and no matter what half-assed system is created people are always gonna ***** about never getting a limited tag. That is the point of having limited tags.
 
"I'm well aware that Wyo res don't lack opportunity and often draw or buy up to a dozen tags/year to fill their freezer."

12 tags??
 
Wonder if I can get points for the lottery ? And square them please ! Haha @elks96 said it pretty good Hell no!! I was in favor of a waiting period but the more I hear other’s opinions and think about it coming to the conclusion bad idea also !! So yup no on that also!!
 
From the sound of things Wyo res are tickled to death with the current e/d/a system how it is. They don’t mind that draw odds stink for high demand units and that neighbors draw several tags in consecutive years while they twiddle their thumbs without a tag. I can guarantee that limited tags won’t get any easier to draw in the coming years as Wyo population continues to grow.

Having a 1 to 3 year wait after drawing premium, high demand tags or some combination of bonus pt/random draw system seems like any easy alternative to give those that apply for years and years without drawing a limited tag a little better chance.

If Wyo res want to sit back and have the same horrible draw odds with a random draw system for difficult units to draw there better not be any complaining that they never can draw tags! I can guarantee that it isn't going to get any better! I'm also sure the outfitters and landowners will try to grab as many of these high demand tags as they can from both res and nonres public hunter draws. Colo didn't see this coming a few years ago and there was nothing that could be done to stop it. In Colo, there now is a chunk of tags that was taken from res/nonres hunter's pool that are landowner tags.

Yes, Wyo res have plenty of opportunity to draw lots of big game tags and fill their freezer every year. Do they want better odds of drawing high demand limited tags if they strike out year after year....I guess not? Wyo is blessed with the lowest population of humans in any state in the US. It's obvious to me that Wyo res could use this to their advantage. If not, oh well!
 
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From what I understand there are a lot of Wyo res that are complaining about not being able to draw HIGH DEMAND LIMITED tags. I'm well aware that Wyo res don't lack opportunity and often draw or buy up to a dozen tags/year to fill their freezer.

For those that say point systems suck, here's a few things to consider. Lets take 33 NV antelope in my chart above as an example. In 2011 there were 585 applicants and in 2020 there were 1078 applicants for these same unit 33 tags. That is close to a 50% increase in applicants in 9 years. My guess is that this increase in NV res applicants is likely due to new NV res that have moved to the state and the overall population has grown. I wanted to mention this because with a random draw where every applicant has the same chance to draw tags the draw odd will likely drop every year since there are more new applicants applying for approximately the same number of high demand unit tags. If you think draw odds suck now wait another 20 years and lets see what your say about a random system being fair and a great system in Wyo. With a bonus pt system at least your odds continue to increase every year you apply but everyone still has a fair chance to draw the same tag.

Wyo's population is likely going to continue to grow over the next 20+ years. With my example, the random draw odds for a unit 33 NV antelope tag in 2020 would be 30 tags and 1078 applicants or 1 in 36 chance or 3% chance. It very possibly would take more than 1 lifetime to draw a 33 tag with a random draw with 3% draw odds. As a stark contrast, draw odds are amazing after 8+ of applying for the same tag with bonus pt system. In reality, as more hunters move to NV draw odds will continue to drop below 3% for this tag in a random draw system.

Maddog58 mentioned that he had 18 pts for elk and bonus pt system is BS. One question for Maddog58....now that you have 18 elk bonus pts would you prefer to stay with a bonus pt system or would you rather return to a random draw? My guess is that you have been holding out for one of the toughest units in the state to draw and you would be totally be against losing your 18 pts going to a random draw. I guess that's your choice and not the fault of the NV bonus pt system. You could likely draw several excellent NV bull tags if you didn't apply for tough draw odds units. Maybe you are the most unlucky NV res in the state?

Draw odds are decreasing every year in a random draw system as more and more residents move to Wyo. It sounds like several Wyo res have posted their opposition to waiting periods or any pt system. What happens 20 years from now when you are sitting at home wishing you could draw the same high demand tags that your neighbor has possibly drawn 2 or 3 times? I can guarantee your odds won't improve in the coming years.....even with 90/10!

As I've been saying all along there is likely no perfect draw system but there are quite a few options available that might help a lot of Wyo res draw great high demand limited tags.

Wow, SS! 7 posts since my original post....each one of them very condescending!
I would be ok with dropping the bonus point system. And as far as the units I pick for the draw, you are just guessing what I do. Point systems suck-period. Get rid of them
 
From the sound of things Wyo res are tickled to death with the current e/d/a system how it is. They don’t mind that draw odds stink for high demand units and that neighbors draw several tags in consecutive years while they twiddle their thumbs without a tag. I can guarantee that limited tags won’t get any easier to draw in the coming years as Wyo population continues to grow.

Having a 1 to 3 year wait after drawing premium, high demand tags or some combination of bonus pt/random draw system seems like any easy alternative to give those that apply for years and years without drawing a limited tag a little better chance.

If Wyo res want to sit back and have the same horrible draw odds with a random draw system for difficult units to draw there better not be any complaining that they never can draw tags! I can guarantee that it isn't going to get any better! I'm also sure the outfitters and landowners will try to grab as many of these high demand tags as they can from both res and nonres public hunter draws. Colo didn't see this coming a few years ago and there was nothing that could be done to stop it. In Colo, there now is a chunk of tags that was taken from res/nonres hunter's pool that are landowner tags.

Yes, Wyo res have plenty of opportunity to draw lots of big game tags and fill their freezer every year. Do they want better odds of drawing high demand limited tags if they strike out year after year....I guess not? Wyo is blessed with the lowest population of humans in any state in the US. It's obvious to me that Wyo res could use this to their advantage. If not, oh well!
Still waiting for anyone to show me a person who draws a hard to get tag year after year. Every time I investigate this, I have not found it to be true. But somehow there is this perception that it happens.

hell the luckiest person I know in the WY system drew a specific unit 3 times in 10 years. Which was 3 times higher than the 3% yearly odds. Thought he would be the example, but he has been on a dry spell. Overall odds actually increased due to lic increases but he is now below the average…
 
So from what I've seen on the posts in regard to point systems and waiting periods is that Wyo res have plenty of OPPORTUNITY to draw limited d/e/a tags and fill their freezer with big game. Wyo res are totally happy with the d/e/a draw system as it is.

That's great to know!
 
As a Nevada resident who has hunted in Wyoming for 40 years, I wish it would stay at 80/20 for DEA. But I really don’t blame the residents for wanting 90/10. I just wish Wyoming would do away with the points and the special draws. And no way on waiting periods. Random draws and if you get a tag, then you get a tag
 
So from what I've seen on the posts in regard to point systems and waiting periods is that Wyo res have plenty of OPPORTUNITY to draw limited d/e/a tags and fill their freezer with big game. Wyo res are totally happy with the d/e/a draw system as it is.

That's great to know!
Actually most are happy with our allotments but do not like the rollover of licenses into the NR draw. That is getting some traction with the Task Force it seems.
My comments address the rollover of under subscribed resident licenses into the NR draw. We want a chance at those licenses as residents. Roll them into the leftover draw at least so we have a chance to draw them too.
We do not want PP or bonus PP , or waiting periods.
 
I don't think Wyoming will do away with points, it is to much of a cash cow, and the non residents that are heavily invested in points would be screwed. I would be in favor of a 10 year moratorium on existing points, either use them or lose them, and then go to a random draw like Idaho for all species for N.R.'s.
 
Wytex, thanks for your post with suggestions. It’s nice hearing recommendations from a wyo res without a bunch of trash talk! You make some great points.
 
Actually most are happy with our allotments but do not like the rollover of licenses into the NR draw. That is getting some traction with the Task Force it seems.
My comments address the rollover of under subscribed resident licenses into the NR draw. We want a chance at those licenses as residents. Roll them into the leftover draw at least so we have a chance to draw them too.
We do not want PP or bonus PP , or waiting periods.
Couldn’t you just apply for them in the 1st draw as a 3rd choice? If residents want the tags that are rolling over to the nonresident pool so bad maybe they should actually apply for them.
As to Jims and his idea for a Nevada style point system, he’s out of his mind. Point systems are all trash
 
Nevada’s system sucks. Everyone getting 5 options and squaring points is a joke. Everybody always tells me, “yeah, but I get 5 choices”. So does everyone else ding dong. I think it would be a better system with one choice and squaring of points. Just my opinion.

Rich
But then I drew an archery bull tag with 3 points and a 231 mule deer tag with 4. :) I guess it's all perspective.

Still not a fan of WY preference points, but if there are pref points in a state I do like the NV system.
 
I’m too old to worry about a few more tags. But I wish my kids and grandkids can have a better chance to get tags. We should let Wyoming figure out what to do with their state and my state should do what they want with theirs. Plenty of options out there to hunt every year.
 
And I’ll add thank God for Wyoming deer tags this year as my grandson wouldn’t be hunting if he hadn’t drawn a Region W tag. Couldn’t pull a tag in his home state of Nevada even under the youth tag draw.
 
I already commented to the TF to make pronghorn a point system only. For deer and elk we have General license hunting but all pronghorn hunting for residents is limited quota. Going to a point system would allow everyone to draw a few top premium areas in their lifetime vs. now it’s just a free for all random cluttered disarray system. I am against PP for deer and elk as I think most residents agree, leave that alone as we have General license hunts for those species.
 
I already commented to the TF to make pronghorn a point system only. For deer and elk we have General license hunting but all pronghorn hunting for residents is limited quota. Going to a point system would allow everyone to draw a few top premium areas in their lifetime vs. now it’s just a free for all random cluttered disarray system. I am against PP for deer and elk as I think most residents agree, leave that alone as we have General license hunts for those species.
Why not have points for limited quota and keep general the same?
 
Why not have points for limited quota and keep general the same?
I personally don’t want and hope we don’t go down the PP path for deer and elk limited quota areas. For pronghorn since it’s all limited I think a PP system would make sense. Many NR can draw areas in Wyoming I have never been able to draw so I can see the efficacy of having it for pronghorn.
 
I personally don’t want and hope we don’t go down the PP path for deer and elk limited quota areas. For pronghorn since it’s all limited I think a PP system would make sense. Many NR can draw areas in Wyoming I have never been able to draw so I can see the efficacy of having it for pronghorn.
Wouldnt be any different for other species
 
Bonus points suck. Your odds still get worse every year. With the squaring system you just get swamped out by all the ppl with low pts. Say there's 500 ppl with 2pts =2000 chances, the next year they all got 3pts = 4500 chances and you go from 20 to 21pts.... you still got a really shitty chance. Plus people feel like they're missing out if they don't apply when you have points and everyone puts in their aunts, uncles and 3rd cousins even though they don't hunt to share points. Screw point systems. Limit choices on apps.
Amen. Nevada having the best drawing system in the West is another one of those myths that gets regurgitated yearly.
 
Couldn’t you just apply for them in the 1st draw as a 3rd choice? If residents want the tags that are rolling over to the nonresident pool so bad maybe they should actually apply for them.
As to Jims and his idea for a Nevada style point system, he’s out of his mind. Point systems are all trash
We do apply for them but are limited to 1 any pronghorn tag in initial draw. We want those unallotted licenses put into the leftover draw for all, not just thrown into the NR draw for them to draw.
Keep that hard quota for the NR draw, no need to reduce their quotas just hold the draw to it and let the resident licenses go to the leftover draw for all to have a chance at.
By statute we are allowed 2 any pronghorn licenses but rarely get them due to the rollover to the NR draw.

Maybe they should let residents apply for and draw their 2 any pronghorn tags in the 1st draw and leave the rest for the NR. Set aside that NR quota for their draw but let us residents get a shot at both or our licenses before the NR draw. Anything left after both our draws would get thrown into the NR pool.
Might work for deer too.
 
Wouldnt be any different for other species
That’s what the TF will decide. Whether it will remain the same or whether to pursue.some changes. My recommendation was to change the system to allow for a PP system for pronghorn only and keep deer and elk the same ie no PP system. The TF can make recommendations to make it different or keep it all the same. This would also create more revenue for GF with a PP pool for resident pronghorn and you could draw a few of those premium areas in your lifetime as many NR do.
 
It'll be different if you can buy a point for Elk/Deer and still hunt on a gen license. You cycle applicants thru the system by forcing them to use points.
Even if you did away with general there would be several 2nd choice options for resdients where they wouldn't have to burn their points
 
And you cant compare any othe western state to ours as far as how a preference point system would work. We have more tags and less people then anywhere else which would make any system here much more effective because you know.......math
 
Still waiting for anyone to show me a person who draws a hard to get tag year after year. Every time I investigate this, I have not found it to be true. But somehow there is this perception that it happens.

hell the luckiest person I know in the WY system drew a specific unit 3 times in 10 years. Which was 3 times higher than the 3% yearly odds. Thought he would be the example, but he has been on a dry spell. Overall odds actually increased due to lic increases but he is now below the average…
Take a look at Marley’s draw history. I think he is the whale of draws.

Rich
 
Still waiting for anyone to show me a person who draws a hard to get tag year after year. Every time I investigate this, I have not found it to be true. But somehow there is this perception that it happens.

hell the luckiest person I know in the WY system drew a specific unit 3 times in 10 years. Which was 3 times higher than the 3% yearly odds. Thought he would be the example, but he has been on a dry spell. Overall odds actually increased due to lic increases but he is now below the average…
I drew area 7 for elk 5 years in a row once. Now havent drawn any area in over 8 years. Both scenarios i think are bs
 
Even if you did away with general there would be several 2nd choice options for resdients where they wouldn't have to burn their points
You don’t know if that would continue, especially with a population growth or big influx. Also, nobody is advocating doing away with General license that I am aware of. When you make slippery slope changes to the system you many times regret having changed it. This is why I think species with a General license should not be changed to a PP system. Pronghorn on the other hand would make sense as it’s entirely a limited quota system and residents should be able to draw a few premium area tags like NR can if we had such a system.
 
I would not want to see preference points for antelope... A person dos not have to draw a premium antelope area to have a good hunt and shoot a really good antelope.. A person can draw a antelope tag all most every year now as long as they do not want a premium area... Through in preference point then U have point creep the creep starts with the premium areas then starts to trickle down to the less desirable areas... Keep U preference points.
 
WY-
1.) Adopt the NM random draw system
2.) Refund all preference point dollars back to Res and NR alike
3.) Go to 90/10 for all critters.
4.) Make all federal and state wilderness open to NR hunters
5.) Keep grizzlies and wolf populations high (less animals to hunt)
6.) Continue to drain all extra money on more $15m dollar regional offices
7.) Continue to fight the Sierra club in court and loose more money
8.) WY residents will then start to fork the bill to dig themselves out of a very deep hole.
9.) Then: Eliminate any union, retirement, or perks for agencies that loose $$ on a yearly profit/lose statement. Or: Bonus them for high satisfaction surveys that match-up with profitability.
10.) Until then: We'll continue to watch another state agency prove that they have no idea how to run a business unit....and don't kid yourself: any product, service, and purchased product is a business....just life all F&G departments
 
WY-
1.) Adopt the NM random draw system
2.) Refund all preference point dollars back to Res and NR alike
3.) Go to 90/10 for all critters.
4.) Make all federal and state wilderness open to NR hunters
5.) Keep grizzlies and wolf populations high (less animals to hunt)
6.) Continue to drain all extra money on more $15m dollar regional offices
7.) Continue to fight the Sierra club in court and loose more money
8.) WY residents will then start to fork the bill to dig themselves out of a very deep hole.
9.) Then: Eliminate any union, retirement, or perks for agencies that loose $$ on a yearly profit/lose statement. Or: Bonus them for high satisfaction surveys that match-up with profitability.
10.) Until then: We'll continue to watch another state agency prove that they have no idea how to run a business unit....and don't kid yourself: any product, service, and purchased product is a business....just life all F&G departments
Did you stop beating your wife yet?
 
Well, I'm sure any state F&G employee wouldn't be happy with my "top-10 list above"....cause like most state agencies, they're mislead by inept leadership who have a very short shelf life before they leave, retire, or get replaced....Worse yet, the leaders have to answer to the legislature at some point, so they're all hosed in the end.

Name a "great" F&W state office? One that has critters, happy hunters, budget surpluses, or at a minimum, an agency that keeps their financial status above the level?

1.) One could argue NMF&G? A very, very poor state with pretty darn good resources, management, access, youth encouragement, massive public lands, and excellent quality assessment scores...I'd give NM a solid A with limited tags (across the board even for residents) being the only issue.

2.) CO?? Well, the wolves will eliminate those bloated OTC revenues in less than 10-years....CO is basically hosed. Lions are everywhere killing mule deer, their CWD policy is absolutely incoherent...assuming CWD has been around since the beginning of time, and add nasty winters and drought to complicate any mule deer management plan! Their PP system has to be another major setback, but plenty of private land opportunities, giant elk herd, landowner tags, diversity of game....Another solid B+, but its about to take a nose dive. Goodbye moose and elk with wolves.

3.) MT? Pretty solid state right there. Bonus system, lots of critters, easy general elk/deer tags, lots of room to roam, a thriving/expanding elk herd, fishing, plains, mountains, waterfowl, diversity of game....I'd give them a solid B++...Private land being the only real issue like most states. Start killing grizzlies and open up SW MT to safer backcountry elk hunting, and this goes to an immediate A.

4.) NV: Another B++....if it wasn't for routine drought and a lack of tags, its almost heaven on earth.

5.) UT and AZ: Solid B++. In 12-15 years of waiting you should get a solid late season bull tag, and a better than average MD tag. What more does a NR need?

6.) WY....soon will be like all the above....still a solid B++....but fewer tags for NR's. Simultaneouly increase NR wilderness access while decreasing our tags to 10% and I don't think there will be one ounce of complaining. Outfitters association has to give up something!! US Forest service is federal land!!!

Basically, I'd rather only hunt a state 2-3 times over a 40+ year hunting career. Once for elk and once for MD...then maybe for Moose and sheep (if I get lucky in the draw over 40 years)....but I'd rather have fewer people, longer seasons, and a very fun trophy hunt....then I won't come back ever again....except for ducks and flyfishing...maybe turkeys.

-(10) states for elk and Mule Deer?...that's 20 hunts. (OR, WA, ID, MT, WY, UT, NV, CO, AZ, and NM)
-Throw in (5) mid-level landowner elk/MD vouchers for the $3000-5000 to fill in the gaps (CO and NM).
-Maybe 2 bonus hunts?....Moose and sheep over 40 years? I'd hope to get lucky at some point with a 10-state strategy.
-(4) Iowa whitetail bow hunts over that same period?
-(4) Alberta mule deer bow hunts. Or bear. Or smaller Moose. Or smaller elk? All less than $7k. Superb hunts every single time.
-(1) DIY Alaska Moose and (1) DIY Sitka hunt? Maybe 2 each? No complaints here....I can get those tags every single year and go DIY with a bush plane and a raft. Done.

That's (37+) hunts right there in 40 years. Not too shabby.

I didn't even add in WY/MT/NV/AZ/NM Antelope tags, SD turkeys, NE turkeys, Kansas whitetails, and so many other places.

WY....do what you please. I'll hunt there 2-3x and be happy.
 
WY....do what you please. I'll hunt there 2-3x and be happy.
We will don’t worry. You can have your wet dreams and fantasies cause hey...... we all gotta dream about something. Don’t ever plan on moving here with that attitude. I can assure you that you won’t last. When you wake up and finally view reality Wyoming Game and Fish will be fully funded and appreciated by its residents and the Outfitters will gladly take your money in Wyoming to hunt the Wilderness.:cool::cool::cool:
 
Simple truth... preference points/bonus points have never worked or benefited the average hunter over time. Some systems are better than others if that is your only choice, but there is 0% evidence that a state that does not have them should go that way.

In terms of resident hunting WY ings system is as perfect as it gets. Don't change it.
 
Simple truth... preference points/bonus points have never worked or benefited the average hunter over time. Some systems are better than others if that is your only choice, but there is 0% evidence that a state that does not have them should go that way.

In terms of resident hunting WY ings system is as perfect as it gets. Don't change it.
We use the PP system as residents and they work well for Moose and Bighorn sheep. My grandfather drew 3 sheep tags in 10 years in the 1950s, long before PP systems. I certainly don’t want them for deer and elk as we have General license hunting for those but I can see their efficacy in Pronghorn hunting. Many NR can draw premium pronghorn licenses about every 10 years. Many of these areas have such poor odds as a resident you likely will never draw in a lifetime of putting in under a random disarrayed system. I think it would be beneficial also to include Pronghorn in a resident PP system, especially since it’s a 100% limited quota specie.
 
Preference points equals point creep there is no other way around it... No to any preference point system for antelope... Sheep moose bison and mt goat should of never went to a point system for residents either....
 
Preference points equals point creep there is no other way around it... No to any preference point system for antelope... Sheep moose bison and mt goat should of never went to a point system for residents either....
Bison and Mt. Goat have never had a PP system......
 
I drew an Elk hunt with 1 less than max that had zero point creep for 3 years.
I was lucky enough to draw 5 WY elk tags in the first 5 years of WY points. 2 LE tags and 3 general tags as 2nd choice. Those days are long gone and that is the point. I've drawn 7 WY elk tags since they started points. 4 LE and the 3 general. I've been putting my 18 year old son since he was 10 and he still is a way away from any of those LE tags I drew. Preference points are a slippery slope that just get slippery and slipperier. No one wins over time unless you're the guy who wants to put in for 20+ years for one tag.
 
I've been putting my 18 year old son since he was 10 and he still is a way away from any of those LE tags I drew.
Perhaps you should change your application strategy.
No one wins over time unless you're the guy who wants to put in for 20+ years for one tag.
That’s not a win, that’s a LOSE as the same hunter could have drawn 7-10 quality licenses over that time and enjoyed many great hunts and memories with a more sound strategy.
 
I was lucky enough to draw 5 WY elk tags in the first 5 years of WY points. 2 LE tags and 3 general tags as 2nd choice. Those days are long gone and that is the point. I've drawn 7 WY elk tags since they started points. 4 LE and the 3 general. I've been putting my 18 year old son since he was 10 and he still is a way away from any of those LE tags I drew. Preference points are a slippery slope that just get slippery and slipperier. No one wins over time unless you're the guy who wants to put in for 20+ years for one tag.
In what state were you applying for elk points/tags for your son when he was 10 & 11?
 
In what state were you applying for elk points/tags for your son when he was 10 & 11?
It's hard to keep track of. I looked back and WY is 11 I guess. They all differ. I have been on top of every state since he was old enough to get his hunters safety. AZ is 10, OR is actually 9 and you can also get double points by taking advantage of the mentored youth points. It's been long enough I have forgot the minimum age for each state and when we started him.

The point was he's now 18 with quite a few WY points, but he will still likely not draw a hunt I drew multiple times with 2-3 points.
 
Perhaps you should change your application strategy.

That’s not a win, that’s a LOSE as the same hunter could have drawn 7-10 quality licenses over that time and enjoyed many great hunts and memories with a more sound strategy.

His application strategy has revolved around him being a high school athlete with limited time. FYI he has had multiple great elk hunts in many states in that time frame. AZ, CO, OR. Just have not had him draw a WY tag yet. He will soon when he can spend the time with the tag.

I agree that its's a LOSE. That was my point. I would rather hunt any state many many times than wait for one tag for 20 years. I'm a tag drawer and not a tag waiter.
 
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If you can’t figure out where Randy has hunted in WY your special for sure. He blew up a elk unit with buzz in tow.

Rich
??? the only reason you figured it out is because someone posted it and it wasn’t Randy. I hate newberg but it’s easy to see jealousy and unwarranted hate. He didn’t blow up the unit either, by the time you clowns figured it out the word was already out.
 
Randy doesn't talk about specific areas.

So is Hunt Talk not a forum?

I love Randy. 100%.

But let's not pretend. ANY publication/show/forum, will.

As was pointed out earlier, your boy Buzz infamously helped do so.

Guys know where he hunts whitetail in Montana. Where he hunted buffalo in Utah. Where he, Buzz, Matthew hunted elk.

I've read other places where a Nissan with Tennessee license plates would get spotted, and then out comes a show.

I'm guessing a Raptor with a shell is a dead give away, not many Raptors with shells. Probably fewer with Montana plates.

That's not hate, Randy is welcome at my home, or in my camp any day of the week. But even he has addressed the subject.
 
Ok so now the utard is saying Randy’s forum not Randy. I don’t speak fluent utard but he’s saying you’re right @jm77.

could of saved a lot of typing and just said you’re right. Instead he brings up his fantasy of having newberg over for dinner.
 
So is Hunt Talk not a forum?

I love Randy. 100%.

But let's not pretend. ANY publication/show/forum, will.

As was pointed out earlier, your boy Buzz infamously helped do so.

Guys know where he hunts whitetail in Montana. Where he hunted buffalo in Utah. Where he, Buzz, Matthew hunted elk.

I've read other places where a Nissan with Tennessee license plates would get spotted, and then out comes a show.

I'm guessing a Raptor with a shell is a dead give away, not many Raptors with shells. Probably fewer with Montana plates.

That's not hate, Randy is welcome at my home, or in my camp any day of the week. But even he has addressed the subject.
Ok so now the utard is saying Randy’s forum not Randy. I don’t speak fluent utard but he’s saying you’re right @jm77.

could of saved a lot of typing and just said you’re right. Instead he brings up his fantasy of having newberg over for dinner.
Ha ha, this is great!

"... MM and all the other hunting forums for that."
 
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Ha ha, this is great!

"... MM and all the other hunting forums for that."


Funny is you are ok taking the shot at Brian, and MM, on MM, while not wanting to point out, Randy has NUMEROUS platforms, each doing what you claim has caused issues.
 
I've had dinner with Randy, damn nice guy.

I drew that hunt a while back; zero point creep for 3 years even after Guy put it in his "top Elk units", and Randy published the youtube.
The problem comes years later when guys ask where it was and some clowns see how fast they can post up the unit; twice here on MM and at least once on rokslide.
 
I've had dinner with Randy, damn nice guy.

I drew that hunt a while back; zero point creep for 3 years even after Guy put it in his "top Elk units", and Randy published the youtube.
The problem comes years later when guys ask where it was and some clowns see how fast they can post up the unit; twice here on MM and at least once on rokslide.


Randy's never been anything but kind to me. Wasn't a shot at Randy.

Was a shot at a guy who has no problem listing the offenders, while conspicuously not mentioning a forum he frequents owned by a guy he is friends with.

Either these sources and platforms cause point creep, and hot spots, or they don't.

I think they do. Including all of Randy's various platforms.

No shade at Randy. But facts are facts.
 
Was a shot at a guy who has no problem listing the offenders, while conspicuously not mentioning a forum he frequents owned by a guy he is friends with.
Interesting enough THE ONLY forum I named was "MM and others" and I frequent more than Hunttalk. That's not a shot at Brian and can guarantee you he didn't think it was. It's a shot at social media in general. You just have a problem with me and that's fine because I will use @SS's phrase "living rent free in your head"!(y)

Time to grow up and stop putting validation to the term "Utard".
 
??? the only reason you figured it out is because someone posted it and it wasn’t Randy. I hate newberg but it’s easy to see jealousy and unwarranted hate. He didn’t blow up the unit either, by the time you clowns figured it out the word was already out.
I am far from jealous of Randy. He seems like a good guy. There you go again calling names. Not a clown, but you can make your assumptions. It really wasn’t that hard to figure it out and didn’t need someone to point it out for me.

Rich
 
Interesting enough THE ONLY forum I named was "MM and others" and I frequent more than Hunttalk. That's not a shot at Brian and can guarantee you he didn't think it was. It's a shot at social media in general. You just have a problem with me and that's fine because I will use @SS's phrase "living rent free in your head"!(y)

Time to grow up and stop putting validation to the term "Utard".


Don't flatter yourself.

I call out all the condescending blowhards in these forums.
 
??? the only reason you figured it out is because someone posted it and it wasn’t Randy. I hate newberg but it’s easy to see jealousy and unwarranted hate. He didn’t blow up the unit either, by the time you clowns figured it out the word was already out.
Exactly...some in the know had it figured long ago.

They might kill elk, but I've not seen a coat-tail rider kill anything half decent. Funny watching them wait and blow points to kill bulls they could kill every 3-4 years in general units.

Hilarious.
 
Exactly...some in the know had it figured long ago.

They might kill elk, but I've not seen a coat-tail rider kill anything half decent. Funny watching them wait and blow points to kill bulls they could kill every 3-4 years in general units.

Hilarious.
It’s the same story with all of the limited quota tags they get, quality is going downhill ?
 

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