Book Cliffs vs CO unit 21

mulecreek

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Not trying to be a smartazz or start an pissin match but does anyone have any info on the cause of the big difference between the overall quality of bucks from the Book Cliffs versus the quality of bucks from unit 21 in CO? The two units border each other, and the BC is roughly twice the size of 21 but by my count they issue very similar numbers of buck tags. I get approx 570 for BC (including archery, muzz and rifle) vs 560 for 21. I consistantly see 21 turning out 200" where it seems like BC produces more of a 170" buck on the top end. Is the terrain significantly different between the two units? Is access easier in BC? I am not very familiar with BC but I have spent a little time around 21 and it didn't seem like there was a shortage of roads. It is possible that my tag counts are wrong, if so let me know. Am i wrong on the size of bucks being that different? How can CO issue the same number of tags for an area half the size and produce an overall bigger buck? Just curious if anyone has insight into the difference.
 
Very simple 21 is managed by Colorado and the Book cliffs is managed by Utah. I know this is going to ruffle some feathers but I think that the Book Cliffs is not as good also because of the crap it gets with the Ute Tribe I won't go into detail right now. I would guess too that 21 is watched a little closer. Just my 2 cents
 
Might I add another similar situation is Diamond MT. in Utah versus Units 101, 102 Wyoming.. Night and Day difference Its a no brainer Utah is mis managed in so many ways.
 
Colorado's hunt is spread over multiple rifle seasons, Utah has one. I would think that less hunter pressure would be a factor, especially when both have relatively easy access.
 
If you look at the age data, both units have similar age class bucks harvested. Feed is also similar between those two units that I have extensive experience in.

The difference is genetics for big antlers. The deer in 21 mostly migrate north and stay within the unit to winter and rut. They don't cross over and mingle with the Utah deer. Some head south into unit 30 in CO, but most go north. Therefore, the gene pool isn't diverse in 21.......it's somewhat closed off in spite of there not being physical landform barriers around the unit. Unit 10 in CO has this very same characteristic.......summer and winter range all within the same unit. This is a rare situation in CO.

Utah Books deer mainly follow the north/south migration pattern as well, not many moving into Colorado. The summit of the Bookcliffs runs east/west.....so downhill is north/south.

WM
 
yeah but if you go deeper into diamond mountain where its all private there are bigger deer than you think.
 
That is the best question I have seen on this site in years. I'll wait for Dax to weigh in on this one....
 
I'm no expert, but I am hearing the quality in CO 21 has taken a nose dive. I am also thinking there might be more cover in 21 for big deer to hide and I know it does not get the constant scouting pressure that the Books do.
 
you forgot ute tribe factor on tags add 2000 tribal members that can hunt the book cfiffs with tribe tags
 
I spent a lot of time on the books last year, saw more 160-170 bucks than I ever had seen in my life. Only saw a few that would crack 180, but a few bruisers are there for those who hunt hard.

Never been on the Colorado side, but I am building points for unit 21...

That being said and not to totally change the subject, it seems (IMHO), that the Utah side is better on elk and good on deer while the Colorado side is better on the deer and not as goo on the elk...

But, I would respect another opinion that has more experience then me.
 
I don't know for sure. I do know that even though the 2 areas are right next to each other, radio collar data shows that they are pretty much 2 seperate herds. Some of the deer that come into UT in Evacuation Creek, Park Canyon, Rabbit Mtn. summer in CO, but that only makes up a small area, and most of the rest of the deer both summer and winter in UT.

There is more private land on the CO side, that could have an effect on trophy quality.

I don't know exactly how population and tag numbers stack up in a CO vs. UT comparison, but there could be some differences there too.

I do know that the buck to doe ratios are pretty similar, and that both units have seen declines in overall numbers in the last 4-5 years. I don't really know 21 though so I can't say my opinion is worth much.

I wouldn't mind having a tag for both to get a better comparison. So if someone could give me an Oct. rifle tag for UT, and a 3rd season 21 tag I will hunt them both and get back to you and tell you how they stack up.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
My only experience in the book cliffs is driving into utah, going a bit south and driving right back into CO. Seemed to me the summer range is better on the CO side. Any truth to that? Better feed might help the CO side out?
 
Really not a lot of difference in quality in my opinion. One thing not mentioned is the fact that the third season in 21 usually produces the bigger bucks as they can be hunted in the beginning of the rut. Also the higher country in 21 has less access than the books. I dont know about all of the 200" bucks in 21..maybe 5-10 years ago, certainly not recently. As mentioned genetics might be the biggest factor, more of a 3x3 and 3x4 gene pool on the utah side. I will hopefully be hunting 21 archery this year so I will report back if I draw a tag.
 
21 is primarily a migratory unit. The older age class bucks do not move into accessible country until late in the year.
If you look at the tag structure, unit 21 offers very few tags for the 3rd season and none for the fourth.
I would guess a lot of older bucks are saved for future years

Ed

If you ain't the lead dog,
the view never changes
 
21 does have more/better summer range and in that area summer range is more of a limiting factor than winter range.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
There are a lot of big 3x3 and 3x4 bucks on the Utah side, which keeps them in the 160-170 scoring range. Still, I would happily take a tag on either side of the state border...I saw enough really good 4x4s and a few with even more junk to satisfy me.
 
hunted 21 3rd rifle 3yrs ago.. seen alot of bucks but only one that would go 180 maybe 185.. killed a 170 on the last day.. I grewup hunting the colorado side of the books.. and I agree that 200 are very rare! two of my brothers killed 165 and 175 bucks archery last yr.. I have been putting in for the utah side and should draw in the next couple of yrs.. I think 9 pts..

I do spend some time in utah and would say.. that colo does have better bucks.. and utah ALOT better elk.. just saying
 
Its simple unit 21 has some large tracts of private that provide safe haven for big bucks. When the big deer get rutting they move off the private in search of females. Thats when guys who didn't hire an outfitter kill the nice deer. Its been 10 yrs since I've set foot in 21 but it seems to me that there are endless tracts of dense PJ's that give the bigger deer some good places to hide. I've heard quality is way down on unit 21 from 5 yrs ago. Colorado's best deer seem to be coming from units that don't yet take 14pts to draw. As soon as they word is out they are headed to the toilet.
 
>Its simple unit 21 has some
>large tracts of private that
>provide safe haven for big
>bucks. When the big
>deer get rutting they move
>off the private in search
>of females. Thats when
>guys who didn't hire an
>outfitter kill the nice deer.
> Its been 10 yrs
>since I've set foot in
>21 but it seems to
>me that there are endless
>tracts of dense PJ's that
>give the bigger deer some
>good places to hide.
>I've heard quality is way
>down on unit 21 from
>5 yrs ago. Colorado's
>best deer seem to be
>coming from units that don't
>yet take 14pts to draw.
> As soon as they
>word is out they are
>headed to the toilet.


Thank you GARTH & HUNTIN FOOL !!!
 
To me they are the same herd as the bookcliffs has taken a decline so has 21 there are alot of deer that come off the top and end up in colorado. Not all the deer but a good number non the less that is why you have seen a decline in 21 over the last couple of years. There are not as many big deer coming off of the books migrating into colorado as there use to be.
 
Come to think of it there ARE some big bucks taken each year in the LATE Utah hunt. They are taken by the #$%@&n poachers.
 
21 CONSISTANTLY produces bucks over 200"???? WTH have you been smoking???? Basically the same quality in each, Colorado has a rut hunt.

As far as Diamond and 102 in Wyoming==I'd take the Diamond tag right now. And 102 is my favorite place to hunt in the world. Thanks again Garth!!!

There is a unit to kill 200 inch bucks in Utah. Its called the Henry Mountains.

Dont put in for the books or 21 if you are looking for a 200" buck.
 
Bonepiler nailed it. I would just add that if you are dead set on a 190+ 30" buck don't put in for the UT Book Cliffs either.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
+1000000000@ Dax and Bone


Jake H. SHED OR DEAD IT DONT MATTER TO ME!!!
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-11 AT 10:27PM (MST)[p]Listen Again Dudes,

I lived in GJ for many years since 1997 and worked both units hard and talked to a lot of hunters, taxidermists, and network buddies. This ain't about CO vs UT or any ego thing. It's about the facts.......and genetics for big antlers.

21 has it's own genetic pool that is a great one for anywhere in the west that it shares with no other unit. And by 21.....I mean 21 west of the highway, which is the quality side of the unit. The deer live, winter and rut all within that area. Soooooooo, the big bucks that dominate the rut have spawned more big bucks without interference from the neighboring units that contain inferior genetics. When an area is managed to produce some mature bucks, it takes another deer generation for it to grow bigger bucks......and it continues to get better with time until it peaks........all given the same management strategy. DOES LIKE TO BREED WITH BIG BUCKS! It mother nature's way. Eastern CO is an example of this. It took 15 years to build Eastern CO to what it is today. The gene pool in 21 has been built up, is VERY isolated from other units, and is not shared. The mature 5+ year old bucks have racks that are far superior to the UT Books or even CO unit 10 or any other unit within miles of 21. The demand and prices for landowner tags, the points required to draw, and the recommendations from the info providers support this. Recent winterkill has hurt the older buck harvest.............but the genetics are still there and can't be beat by many units in the west.

21 can and does produce 170-200"+ racks on 5-7 year old bucks. Not cuz the late hunt......but cuz the genetic pool is there. Here are some photos. I held 2 racks in 2009 that went over 190" typical.......one went 197" and netted B & C. Did you see the photo of the 2 bucks in the HF whacked in the second season 2009 that both went 185-195"? I've seen many mounted heads in GJ that were monsters from 21. It is a unique isolated pocket of great genetics.

Colorado 21 October, 202" typical, 36" outside, public land
4245co_21_1997.jpg


Colorado 21 November 2002, 200+" typical frame, public land
6389co_21_robin_2002.jpg



Colorado 21 November 2002, public land
7793co_21_2002.jpg




The UT Books is nothing short of disappointing in the genetics department. Many, many bucks 4-5 years old with most in the 150-170" bracket. I've spent countless days there on summer and winter range, and few over 170". I read where the average age determined from UDWR tooth data was something like 4.1 in 2009. In a super (or CO 21 equivalent) unit......that would mean many 5-6 year old bucks killed which are mature bucks at their peak. But where are the 180-200" bucks from the UT Books then? They aren't there. The gene pool is weak (and VERY weak for the overall state of UT) in the UT Books. It just ain't a trophy unit. I've looked at hundreds and hundreds of bucks there in the last decade......and most are 160 or less. I have seen a few bigguns.......to 200" mid-30"s typical. But believe me when I say those are few and far between.

Here is my 2004 UT Books buck @ 10.5 years old from public land.
539304_utah_buck_4.jpg



I LOVE the UT Books and have taken some great bulls there, too. Also a huge B & C UT pronghorn. The UT Books have been good to me. I've had many great days in there mostly by my lonesome surrounded by many bucks and bulls. But given the choice if I was after a 180-200" muley............I would take CO 21 every time including the early seasons. For a 150-170" buck.....the two units are equal.
 
"But where are the 180-200" bucks from the UT Books then? They aren't there. The gene pool is weak (and VERY weak for the overall state of UT) in the UT Books. It just ain't a trophy unit. I've looked at hundreds and hundreds of bucks there in the last decade...and most are 160 or less."

Trust me...WhiskeyMan knowns what he's talking about.

I have either hunted, guided, or trapped the Utah side every single year since 1972. After literally seeing thousands of mule deer out there, I can tell you this...180-200 class bucks DO NOT currently exist on the Utah side. Those who say they do, and I mean no disrespect, they simply don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I have seen maybe 4-5 bucks that would go 180 or larger out of thousands of deer over the last 10 years. Even weaker scoring animals sporting racks over 30? inches are very, very few. Most guys simply don't know how to field judge 30? inch spreads when they say they see them often.

Folks, this IS NOT a trophy unit and NEVER will be the way it's currently managed. There simply is way too much hunting pressure and poaching going on out there to allow mature bucks to even survive over 4 years.

What makes this an enticing unit for many hunters is the relatively high buck-to-doe ratio.
 
Burned my points in 21 last year. Shot an average buck, also went by the local butcher a few times and looked at deer from other camps. IMO it is not what it is cracked up to be. I never saw a buck dead or alive that would break 180, that being said it is a fun hunt but not worth the points IMO. I am applying for a books archery tag this year, have never hunted it before but know a few guys who have and they have all told be it is one of the funnest hunts they have ever done, but they never saw any monsters or killed any either. I think both are good hunts, but 21 has an image of holding a ton of big bucks, Im sure there are some but not as many as you think. Good luck in 21 and be prepared for a ton of elk hunters in a unit where it is almost impossible to get away from road hunters as there are roads everywhere.
 
The CO archery and Muzzy tags in 21 also includes unit 30 which would double the area to compare at least for those seasons.

Also as mentioned the elk are managed very differently. CO bull elk is OTC and the give out a thousand Cow tags every year. UT of course is looking for Trophy bulls.
 
Guys,

How does unit 30 stack up to 21 or the book cliffs in terms of 180 plus bucks? Some say it is not very good for deer over 170. Whiskey, do you have a opinion?
 
30 is not as good for 180+ bucks as 21. There are some in 30....taken throughout history......and some bonafide monsters..........but the genetics between the two units are obviously different. I continue to consider 30 each year, but I would plan to my hard and smart and mid to low elevation for a 180+ buck.

Having said this.....I would hunt 30 over the Utah Books for a 170" buck. So, I rate 30 somewhere between the UT Books and CO 21 for trophy quality.


Question: How does a buck or doe know when and where to travel to winter range every year? They don't have a built in GPS unit.

Answer: Cuz that's where their mommy took them as a fawn and maybe even as a yearling. Old habits and early learnings are hard to break.


Plenty of the 30 and 21 deer share the same summer range along the Baxter Pass - Douglas Pass divide which splits the units. Some deer move south into 30 for wintering and rutting and the 21 deer move north. So the two breeding sites are fairly separate and isolated from each other. Hence.....noticeably different genetic pools and rack sizes.
 
Thanks Whiskey, I think you are correct. I'm thinking about putting in for 30 on the 2nd season but unsure at this point.
 
Good info Whiskeyman. So when I draw my archery deer tag this year, I want to stay up top on the 21/30 border right?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-11 AT 07:25PM (MST)[p]>Good info Whiskeyman. So when I draw my archery deer tag this year, I want to stay up top on the 21/30 border right?


Correct-a-mundo. My advice to hunt mid to low level is for all rifle seasons, not archery and muzzy. But this doesn't mean that there ain't a few stragglers still up high in late Oct-Nov. I seem to recall that the 21/30 archery tag is good for both units??? Hunt the high basins and steep slopes that are semi-open in the highest parts of the units..... at the very highest of the far ridges shown below. Feeding bucks will be in the open areas, but may still bed in the thick adjacent conifers. A few good access roads (expect company).....plus all kinds of hike-in country. Here it is, standing in 21 looking south at that divide toward 30.

5652looking_s_from_1st_divide.jpg


3663west_crk_from_nw_2.jpg



This is in 21 up high in that same country. Great summer/early fall buckhole with water, great feed, cover, isolation......and breezy to keep the bugs off. Standing in this exact spot in late July, I saw two 30"+ 190" plus typicals.

4634buckhole_1.jpg
 

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