Bring Back The Jaguar???

OutdoorWriter

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Just got this in my AP email feed:

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Groups call for reintroduction of jaguars in US Southwest Environmental groups and scientists with two universities want U.S. wildlife managers to consider reintroducing jaguars to the American Southwest

By SUSAN MONTOYA BRYAN Associated Press
May 16, 2021, 2:25 PM
• 4 min read


The Associated Press


In a recently published paper, they say habitat destruction, highways and existing segments of the border wall mean that natural reestablishment of the large cats north of the U.S.-Mexico boundary would be unlikely over the next century without human intervention.



Jaguars are currently found in 19 countries, but biologists have said the animals have lost more than half of their historic range from South and Central America into the southwestern United States largely due to hunting and habitat loss.

Several individual male jaguars have been spotted in Arizona and New Mexico over the last two decades but there’s no evidence of breeding pairs establishing territories beyond northern Mexico. Most recently, a male jaguar was spotted just south of the border and another was seen in Arizona in January.

Scientists and experts with the Wildlife Conservation Society, the Center for Landscape Conservation, Defenders of Wildlife, the Center for Biological Diversity and other organizations are pointing to more than 31,800 square miles (82,400 square kilometers) of suitable habitat in the mountains of central Arizona and New Mexico that could potentially support anywhere from 90 to 150 jaguars.

They contend that reintroducing the cats is essential to species conservation and restoration of the region's ecosystem.

“We are attempting to start a new conversation around jaguar recovery, and this would be a project that would be decades in the making,” Sharon Wilcox of Defenders of Wildlife, one of the study’s authors, said in an interview. “There are ecological dimensions, human dimensions that would need to be addressed in a truly collaborative manner. There would need to be a number of stakeholders who would want to be at the table in order to see this project move forward.”

Under a recovery plan finalized by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Mexico as well as countries in Central and South America are primarily responsible for monitoring jaguar movements within their territory. The agency has noted that the Southwestern U.S. represents just one-tenth of 1% of the jaguar's historic range.



Environmentalists have criticized the plan, saying the U.S. government overlooked opportunities for recovery north of the international border.

While the recovery plan doesn't call for reintroductions in the U.S., federal officials have said efforts will continue to focus on sustaining habitat, eliminating poaching and improving social acceptance to accommodate those cats that find their way across the border.

The habitat highlighted by the conservation groups is rugged and made up mostly of federally managed land. They say it includes water sources, suitable cover and prey.

Fish and Wildlife Service biologists have yet to review the latest study, but such a proposal would likely face fierce opposition from ranchers and some rural residents who have been at odds with environmentalists and the Fish and Wildlife Service over the reintroduction of Mexican gray wolves. That program has faced numerous challenges over the past two decades and while wolf numbers are trending upward, ranchers say so are livestock deaths.

Jaguar advocates said losses could be mitigated through compensation programs like those established as a result of the wolf program.

Then there's the question of where the jaguars would come from. Advocates say a captive breeding program could be developed over time and jaguars from existing wild populations could be relocated.

Wilcox said there are many factors — some understood and others still being studied — that influence the movement of jaguars.

“But this is a vast area with suitable vegetation,” she said. “It’s populated with the right kind of prey for these cats and given its elevation and its latitude, it might provide an important climate refugium for the species in the future.”
 
Devil's in the details of the final plan. This would extend the ESA futher ushering yet another way to limit land use. I have not seen ONE wildlife species added by these groups with the intent to ever delist. Their track record is malicious so I continue to be suspicious.
 
Devil's in the details of the final plan. This would extend the ESA futher ushering yet another way to limit land use. I have not seen ONE wildlife species added by these groups with the intent to ever delist. Their track record is malicious so I continue to be suspicious.
I seriously doubt that even if this plan gets put into play the jaguar will ever reach numbers to be delisted.
 
The SW has been marginal jaguar habitat at best. There were never many jaguars in southern AZ and NM. Just like Canadian wolves being introduced to Colorado, it is a waste of taxpayer dollars to spend it on jaguar reintroduction in NM and AZ. If you look at recent history, wasting taxpayer dollars isn't a political concern anymore.

Texas had better habitat for jaguars 300 years ago but with private property rights in Texas, jaguars reintroduction in Texas will be as likely as bison reintroduction in Texas.
 
some friends with dogs treed one in southern AZ.
they made a video and showed it to Game and fish
they were asked to not show it to anyone
I'm sure they are not the only hound guys that have treed a jaguar. Game and Fish will probably not hear from many of the hound guys that tree one.
 
The most recent jaguar sighting took place back in Jan. this year. Someone got pics on a trail cam. It's the same lone male that's been hanging around and been spotted for a few years. A different one was captured oncam about 6-7 years ago, but it it disappeared without a trace a few years back.

Someone else recently got photos of an ocelot that's also been hanging around southern AZ for a few years.
 
I'm sure they are not the only hound guys that have treed a jaguar. Game and Fish will probably not hear from many of the hound guys that tree one.
I saw a video a few years back of one that hounds cornered in southern AZ. But one that strays up from Mexico and reintroduction by environmental wackos is is two different things. The ultimate goal of said wackos is to eliminate human hunting. And I'm sorry to say in the end, I think in todays climate of people being sheep, the wackos will win..... SAD
 
Swa that
some friends with dogs treed one in southern AZ.
they made a video and showed it to Game and fish
they were asked to not show it to anyone
Why wouldn't they want people to see it? Just the fact that it was treed or what?
Are you able to share the range or unit this was in?
 
I saw a video a few years back of one that hounds cornered in southern AZ. But one that strays up from Mexico and reintroduction by environmental wackos is is two different things. The ultimate goal of said wackos is to eliminate human hunting. And I'm sorry to say in the end, I think in todays climate of people being sheep, the wackos will win..... SAD
Not if said Jaguars dont survive.;)
 
Swa that

Why wouldn't they want people to see it? Just the fact that it was treed or what?
Are you able to share the range or unit this was in?
It gives the crazy environmentalist a reason to ban hound hunting in Southern NM and AZ. They will say the "endangered" jaguars are being harmed by hound hunters and the solution is to stop all hound hunting in the "jaguar zone". The more proof of jaguars, the more the AZ game and fish has to spend on resources to "study" the jaguars.
 
It gives the crazy environmentalist a reason to ban hound hunting in Southern NM and AZ. They will say the "endangered" jaguars are being harmed by hound hunters and the solution is to stop all hound hunting in the "jaguar zone". The more proof of jaguars, the more the AZ game and fish has to spend on resources to "study" the jaguars.
exactly....
 
A story from awhile back
residents in the Catalina foothills were reporting sightings of a huge black cat on their properties and pets were disappearing.
The sightings eventually stopped.
I had hired several southeast Asians that were being relocated by the government after the Nam war. Some were the Hmong hill people and were hunters. A couple of years after the sightings they told one of the supervisors that they had been hunting in the lower Catalinas and had killed and eaten a huge black cat and they were asking him what it was.
At the time of the sightings the feeling was that it was a melanistic jaguar.
The Lao people were green as grass and at one time asked if those cows in the desert belonged to anybody
 
I saw a video a few years back of one that hounds cornered in southern AZ. But one that strays up from Mexico and reintroduction by environmental wackos is is two different things. The ultimate goal of said wackos is to eliminate human hunting. And I'm sorry to say in the end, I think in todays climate of people being sheep, the wackos will win..... SAD
Those wackos want to eliminate human hunting? Seriously how many of us hunt humans? Though it is getting mighty tempting lately:eek:
 
As a fan of nature and rare species conservation, I believe we could easily accommodate a few of these big cats in all that big country. They will NEVER increase be a problem like wolves or even mountain lions. Most people would never know they are there.
 
As a fan of nature and rare species conservation, I believe we could easily accommodate a few of these big cats in all that big country. They will NEVER increase be a problem like wolves or even mountain lions. Most people would never know they are there.
Problem isn't about having a few of them running around, the problem is the wackos that use that to end hunting in general. They have an agenda and they know how to manipulate the general public with these issues to push their agenda.
 
While it seems like a good idea, the obstacles are incredible...the human crush of population increase will mean more human-cat interactions and less habitat. What will it be like in 10 or 20 years there? A jaguar is a very dominant species over lesser cats, and is truly one of the 3 great cats. And those that posted above saying that the Greenies would use the new endangered animal to limit hound hunting (or bait hunting) are probably right on.........thanks for posting the story.....
 
And those that posted above saying that the Greenies would use the new endangered animal to limit hound hunting (or bait hunting) are probably right on.........thanks for posting the story.....
The jaguar is ALREADY listed as endangered & living in the proposed release area. Adding more would be no different than the Mexican wolf introduction here. While they are listed as endangered & off-limits to hunting, all other hunting still takes place in their habitat.
 
The jaguar is ALREADY listed as endangered & living in the proposed release area. Adding more would be no different than the Mexican wolf introduction here. While they are listed as endangered & off-limits to hunting, all other hunting still takes place in their habitat.
True enough. However, the difference would be objectives to grow a sustainable population vs the current "don't shoot the one that roams around". If it were not for the anti-hunting groups (both federal and private) that control and/or influence (read that as lawsuits) these kinds of introductions, I would fully support it. Although the AZ wolf introduction might not have greatly influenced hunting opportunities, I can tell you that other states like Wyoming have had considerable impacts due to wolves.
 
True enough. However, the difference would be objectives to grow a sustainable population vs the current "don't shoot the one that roams around". If it were not for the anti-hunting groups (both federal and private) that control and/or influence (read that as lawsuits) these kinds of introductions, I would fully support it. Although the AZ wolf introduction might not have greatly influenced hunting opportunities, I can tell you that other states like Wyoming have had considerable impacts due to wolves.
Again, see the Mexican wolves. They have been a "to grow a sustainable" population for 30+ years. Not every critter has to have a target painted on it.

And hunters are still killing scads of elk, deer & antelope in all the northern states with growing wolf numbers. Plus, they now have the ability to hunt wolves, as well.
 
Again, see the Mexican wolves. They have been a "to grow a sustainable" population for 30+ years. Not every critter has to have a target painted on it.

And hunters are still killing scads of elk, deer & antelope in all the northern states with growing wolf numbers. Plus, they now have the ability to hunt wolves, as well.
I'm not suggesting every animal lives for the sole purpose of being a target, by any means. And again, talk to folks in Wyoming near Big Piney or Pinedale and see what they have to say about hunting impacts. Scads in their areas have turned to scant when it comes to Moose, and elk hunting is completely different than it was 20 years ago. With that said- I would support jaguar "introduction"- if the state G&F could manage it. I'm not suggesting that the G&F is perfect by any means- but I believe they would be better at balancing the tactics leading to the objectives. The feds and their anti-hunting cohorts certainly don't give a crap about hunters.
 
I'm not suggesting every animal lives for the sole purpose of being a target, by any means. And again, talk to folks in Wyoming near Big Piney or Pinedale and see what they have to say about hunting impacts. Scads in their areas have turned to scant when it comes to Moose, and elk hunting is completely different than it was 20 years ago. With that said- I would support jaguar "introduction"- if the state G&F could manage it. I'm not suggesting that the G&F is perfect by any means- but I believe they would be better at balancing the tactics leading to the objectives. The feds and their anti-hunting cohorts certainly don't give a crap about hunters.
The wolf debate has been going on for eons. We certainly won't settle it here. BUT..it always makes me sad when I see some of the reactions of 'hunters' -- supposedly the best conservationists the world has seen. Yet many of them b!tch about wolves, big cats & whatever else if they can't kill them. Nature is still a wonderful arbitrator; in some cases we should let it arbitrate with only minimal interference.
 
"minimal impact" is impossible to plan, or even define, in the age of surging human growth. "Scads" is also one of my favorite scientific terms. Someone has a plan and a current use for every square inch of the once vast and limitless US West.....Very few people have been as fortunate as I have been to interact with jaguars, to study and film them. I wish them well. But a long term, successful re-intro plan needs to address the elephant in the room.......us.

IMG_6178.jpg
 
Success & failure is the name of the game. Some reintroductions work, other don't.

For the definition of "scads" peruse the hunt success rates over the last few decades. Granted, the wolves might have had some impact in some places, but "the sky is fallin'" isn't the case either. Also, I used the term "minimal interference" rather than "minimal impact.' It was meant in regards to OUR interference with nature.

Here in AZ, the best elk hunting is taking place in the same units where the wolves have supposedly been "decimating" the herd since they were introduced.

One of the neatest things I'm seen while wandering the woods & water over the last 60 years occurred on a caribou hunt at McKensie Lake in the NWT. We had hunted all day and were' on our way back to the lodge by boat. It was nearly dark but still light enough to see along the shoreline where we spotted a cow caribou walking along and several wolves following close behind. We shut the boat down to watch from about 100 yds away. They quickly went into action with a couple attacking her ham strings and others after her head & neck area. In less than 5 mins. they had her the ground, ready for dinner.

It was the same night I took this photo just prior to the wolve encounter.

McKenzieLk.jpg
 
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Here in AZ, the best elk hunting is taking place in the same units where the wolves have supposedly been "decimating" the herd since they were introduced.

I agree that some of the best elk hunting in NM and AZ are in the areas with wolves. I was able to cross paths with a wolf in AZ about 5 years ago. Watching him come by at 100 yards was one of the highlights of my elk hunt.

The "Mexican" wolves found the in AZ and NM are a completely different animal than the Canadian wolves in Idaho. The Canadian wolves are a true apex predator that has been able to thrive. The Mexican Wolves have struggled and I doubt they would have survived without significant human aid of feeding them road kill. They are not the same threat to elk herds that the Canadian wolves are. It will take a few more years, but the Canadian wolves will work there way south into NM from Colorado.

The question is, will the wolf lovers do anything to protect the Mexican wolves in the Gila from the Canadian wolves removing the Mexican wolf genetics?
 
I agree that some of the best elk hunting in NM and AZ are in the areas with wolves. I was able to cross paths with a wolf in AZ about 5 years ago. Watching him come by at 100 yards was one of the highlights of my elk hunt.

The "Mexican" wolves found the in AZ and NM are a completely different animal than the Canadian wolves in Idaho. The Canadian wolves are a true apex predator that has been able to thrive. The Mexican Wolves have struggled and I doubt they would have survived without significant human aid of feeding them road kill. They are not the same threat to elk herds that the Canadian wolves are. It will take a few more years, but the Canadian wolves will work there way south into NM from Colorado.

The question is, will the wolf lovers do anything to protect the Mexican wolves in the Gila from the Canadian wolves removing the Mexican wolf genetics?
I guess that begs the question.

Some of the best hunting I've enjoyed over the years has been in Alaska & Canada's western provinces-- home to oodles of the same type wolves that are in our northern tier states.

In the area where I hunted black bear north of Prince George three times, not a day went by where we didn't see several moose, often right along the main highway. The last time I was there we even saw a small group of elk. The outfitter told me they had been recently moving north from Banff in growing numbers. Coincidentally, he made (now deceased) his beer money trapping wolves in the same area. I got to see several while glassing for bear but never got close enough for a shot. But while I was there on the 2nd hunt, the outfitter caught one in a trap on his airstrip about a 1/2 mile from the lodge. And someone else in camp did kill one. When the outfitter got it back to the lodge, he hung it for skinning. It stunk so bad that he tossed his cookies.

Farther south, where I bow-hunted about 25 years ago, the elk & whitetail deer were quite numerous. -- as were the wolves. I didn't see any wolves in the field, but one ran across the road one night while we were heading back to the house.

In the Yukon at a fly-in camp on Toobally Lake, we had moose visiting around the lodge on a regular basis and saw many along the shorelines whie fishing. Lots of wolves around too. One night, I stepped out of the cabin to pee, and there was a cow & calf 20 feet away, between me & the lake shore.

And I think everyone will agree that Alaska has some of the finest hunting in the west for moose, caribou, etc. Lots of wolves, too.

The huntable species in the northern states are and wll continue to somewhat learn how to cope with wolves. In the meantime wolves do what they do; kill & eat critters just as they did before WE wiped them out the first time to protect livestock. Eventually a balance wil be achieved.

As for the Gila, I doubt the Canadian wolves wil wander that far south, but you never know.
 
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As a fan of nature and rare species conservation, I believe we could easily accommodate a few of these big cats in all that big country. They will NEVER increase be a problem like wolves or even mountain lions. Most people would never know they are there.
The jaguars are already there. Even if there were extensive reintroduction efforts I doubt it would increase the population much in the SW. Many locals or hunters are not against jaguars, they are against stupid federal regulations and rules that environmentalist try to implement.
 
While on this subject does anybody know what the square mile home ranges for a male and a female Jaguar?
Living on the Southern Arizona border I would hate to see one settle in and my honey hole but if their home range is large enough I wouldn't feel so butthurt about it if one got introduced there
 
I guess that begs the question.

Some of the best hunting I've enjoyed over the years has been in Alaska & Canada's western provinces-- home to oodles of the same type wolves that are in our northern tier states.
I don't think wolves will be the end of elk. Elk populations are doing well in Idaho despite a high number of wolves. Wolves do have a significant impact in many parts of Idaho though. Just look at what happened to the elk in the Yellowstone area.

It may be 5 years or 20 years but the Mexican Wolves and Canadian wolves are going to cross paths. When they do, the Mexican wolf genetics will be eliminated.
 
While on this subject does anybody know what the square mile home ranges for a male and a female Jaguar?
Living on the Southern Arizona border I would hate to see one settle in and my honey hole but if their home range is large enough I wouldn't feel so butthurt about it if one got introduced there
There are already a bunch of mountain lions in the area that are much harder on the deer than Jaguars. I'm guessing Jaguars would decrease the lion population in the area, so I doubt jaguars would have any significant net impact on the deer population.
 
While on this subject does anybody know what the square mile home ranges for a male and a female Jaguar?
Living on the Southern Arizona border I would hate to see one settle in and my honey hole but if their home range is large enough I wouldn't feel so butthurt about it if one got introduced there
About 25-30 Sq, miles, and the territories of two MALES normally won't overlap. That's one of the limiting factors to reintroducing them. In reality a successful & sustainable population would not be hundreds of cats but likely only a couple dozen of both sexes.
 
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I don't think wolves will be the end of elk. Elk populations are doing well in Idaho despite a high number of wolves. Wolves do have a significant impact in many parts of Idaho though. Just look at what happened to the elk in the Yellowstone area.

It may be 5 years or 20 years but the Mexican Wolves and Canadian wolves are going to cross paths. When they do, the Mexican wolf genetics will be eliminated.
There was a lot more at play in Yellowstone than merely the introduction of wolves. Those park elk are worse than cattle, thus easy prey for the wolves. They will keep learnig, tho., and eventually won't be so eager to become a canine's treat. In a way, it was a good thing because there were way too many elk anyway, just as there are in Rocky Mt, NP.

I'm going from memory here, but I think elk in only one area in Idaho really suffered. Was it Lolo? There too, however, I seen to recall other circumstances that contributed. It's been too long ago that I researched and wrote about it, plus my mind is now mush. :ROFLMAO: I do have fond memories of two horseback hunts in the Selway, tho, with scenes like this...

52283elkbugle4opt.jpg
 
Elk populations were held back in multiple areas of Idaho by wolves but I would agree that in areas that habitat is adiquate, the elk do fine with wolves. When the habitat is not as good, the elk do very poorly when wolves are added. All of us have our own opinions of wolves. Personally I think wolves in Idaho need to be managed closer the the original fed plan from 20+ years ago fo 150 wolves and 10 packs instead of the current 1500+
 
Elk populations were held back in multiple areas of Idaho by wolves but I would agree that in areas that habitat is adiquate, the elk do fine with wolves. When the habitat is not as good, the elk do very poorly when wolves are added. All of us have our own opinions of wolves. Personally I think wolves in Idaho need to be managed closer the the original fed plan from 20+ years ago fo 150 wolves and 10 packs instead of the current 1500+
When I was still writing & reporting on the topic, I was researching & talking to a lot of folks during & after the wolf introductions. All that stuff is pretty foggy in my mind now, and I can't reference any of my old articles because they're on a computer that's down at the moment.

I have no problem with "managing" wolves in the same way other predators are handled. Have seasons & limits as dictated by the population, and if that means year-long with no limit in some areas, so be it.

What irks me some is hearing "law-abiding" hunters promoting SSS. It always makes me wonder what other game & fish laws are meaningless to them.

Good discussion, BTW.
 
I think jaguars and wolves are different enough that the biological arguments aren’t interchangeable.

The one thing that’s for sure is the left won’t hesitate to use a wolf or jag in sheep’s clothing to upset the wildlife management policies hunters have enjoyed all these years.

Your right we should have left wolves out of this thread.
Good discussion, BTW.

I agree. Good to have a civil discussion without name calling
 
Your right we should have left wolves out of this thread
I guess it's too late to plead the 5th, eh? :rolleyes:

I'm the guilty one who first mentioned wolves, but not in the biological context. My mention was in regards to getting southern AZ shut down to hunting. But it took off from there. So what else is new. :ROFLMAO:

"Adding more would be no different than the Mexican wolf introduction here. While they are listed as endangered & off-limits to hunting, all other hunting still takes place in their habitat."
 
Let me ask this... Land in SW US consists of less than 1/10 of 1% of the cats traditional habitat.

This fact right here should tell us all why it is such a horrible idea to explore the thought any further down the rabbit hole. If we really want to make a difference for the big cats we aggressively start addressing and working where the cat is currently strong. Bringing them into a range and habitat that is marginal at best will only hurt the species overall odds of survival.

All the other BS about anti hunting, shutting down the land is irrelevant.
 
I agree with elks96 on the point of focus for jaguar survival improvement- although the math may be a little conservative :) However, "the fact right here should tell us..." part is not as relevant, as has been proven with wolf and grizzly management in the northern Rockies. Grizzlies and wolves would have survived as species without those efforts, yet the feds deemed them critical once it got going. Nonetheless, I enjoy hunting Wyoming seeing the griz tracks in the fresh snow as I'm trekking along looking for elk. I could only imagine coming across a jaguar in the white mountains of AZ. Too cool. As for conspiracy theories, OutdoorWriter- well, like they said, Covid never originated in a lab :cool:
 
Possible...but not likely to come across a jaguar in the White Mts. of AZ if they reached a sustainable population.

And yes, wolves and grizzlies would have probably survived as a species -- just not in the lower 48 states.

Bring on the beanies with propellers...

wacky1.gif

and black helicopters....

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;)
 
Yup. I wrote about that one when I was covering the demise of Macho B. That was a rarity. That's why I said, "Possible...but not likely..." (y)
 
I knew about Glenn, but that was a good read. At first I thought maybe my friend, the late Bill Quimby, had written it. But it was his successor at SCI, Steve Comus.

Thanks, Homer. (y)
 
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If you can get access to it, this is a good read...

View attachment 41121
Good read indeed. It appears that in the early 1900s, they definitely were further north (ie White Mountains) as often as south. As the century progressed, most interactions were south. Seems to me this is a sign that Jaguars later in the century were transitory from Mexico. No expert, just notional. Thanks for sharing...
 
Ahh! It appears that our friends in conservation are actually focused on the White Mountains and the Mogollon Rim. See https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-05/dow-nit051121.php, and the attached "CANRA" area. Reading carefully, and between the lines, it's obvious that the much larger contiguous areas, copious suitable game (even more game than a century ago), and huge swaths of wilderness appeal to the objective. I imagine elk, which mountain lions have been shown in the white mountains to target frequently, would make perfect food for jaguars who are far stronger and capable. The part that scares me, as always, are the strong anti-hunting contributors to the potential project. See the esteemed list at the bottom of the article.
jag area.jpg
 
Wow, when that list of folks is involved, beginning with Defenders for Wildlife, hunting has NO part in any of our civilized worlds.
These anti-groups are like a certain political group, they NEVER give an inch and your thoughts and opinions be damned. And, if you give them an inch....
 
Wow, when that list of folks is involved, beginning with Defenders for Wildlife, hunting has NO part in any of our civilized worlds.
These anti-groups are like a certain political group, they NEVER give an inch and your thoughts and opinions be damned. And, if you give them an inch.... Y
Ya- and that's sad in my opinion. The lessons from wolf introduction in Wyoming always haunt my thoughts around this. DOW really made it hard on Wyo G&F. I imagine the same would occur in AZ. On the flip side, I'd actually LOVE to see jaguars re-introduced. I truly believe they could do it and NOT hurt hunting in the state, if those with deep legal pockets on the far left of the equation were not so effective in the courts. The G&F could manage elk and deer population objectives to meet the desires of hunters and the needs of jaguars. I read once that a lion needs a big game animal about once per week to survive. I imagine a jaguar would be at least that. With an objective of 150 jags, that's 7500 game animals annually. I'm sure it could be argued up or down from that. It would not be that hard across this broad area to change population objectives to deal with both.
 
Good points. That's the unfortunate thing with these groups with their, "We would like to see 100 grizzlies" or "15 breeding pairs of wolves," then the goal posts move and move and move. Never enough.
 

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