CA Law Enforcement

NMHUNTNUTT1 · Aug 6, 2007

I know this isn't about hunting but just wonder .

I just returned from southern CA from a 8 days at Disney Land, Universal Studios and Sea World. Whils there , the first 3 days , LAPD lost 4 officers. I was actually stuck on the 5 near HollyWood in the car accident that the officer riding the motorcycle was killed in , some crazy back up too. My friend Terry just moved here from LA and the LAPD, and he said the job was killing him and his family and he feared of it. My older brother was a 10 veteran of the NM State Police and a sgt. when he passed away. I've always respected law enforcement persons , and like teachers feel they are extrememly important.LAPD lost 4 in less days and speaking to a guy there in Anahiem , he said being a police officer there is very tough and a challange that is getting harder and harder to get recruits.In a city so large with so many big adjoining cities , I think they need to do some serious recruiting to get quality help , upgrade pay , the taxes there with that many people should be able to help pay for pay increase and make being a police officer atleast a decent life....Then while leaving , we got caught in the traffice caused by the fire in the canyon above Rancho Coacamunga , 55 miles in 3 and a half hours....I love CA, San Diego is by far one of the most beautiful cities , but wow , alot of people and not many officeres seen...

RACKMASTER · Aug 6, 2007

LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-07 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]"ITS ALMOST WEIRD" how things run in cycles (family deaths, celeb's deaths, Ca highway patrol mans deaths! cost of oil, refineries shut down, high cost of gas!)!!!
LA's cops have it kinda rough but I think most LAW ENFORCEMENT deaths happen be cause they guys let their guard down!
did they really need 259 officers to repond to an officer down call? maybe I do not know! seems alot! how much should police make? 100k,130k! I think they make a fair wage up here in bay area! they make plenty on over time too(court, holidays!)they have better medical than me, more days off with pay and get to carrie a gun all day!!
just my 2 cents!
rm

BOHNTR · Aug 6, 2007

Hey Rack.....strap on a badge & gun, go through a few doors on our SWAT missions and let's see what you got. Then let me know what you think.

I can tell you this, if I go down I'll take all the help I can get...if that means 259 brothers & sisters show up to help.....great, I'll owe a lot of lunches.

Yes, there are a few good benefits (medical, etc.) but it doesn't come without a cost. There's a long list of fallen officers etched in a memorial that learned that the hard way.

I started my law enforcement career as a game warden 20 years ago in this state. I transferred shortly after to a major (4000 sworn) agency in Southern California. The last 16 years, I've been assigned to our full-time SWAT unit, which I'm now a lieutenant of.

The young men/women getting into this line of work this day and age have my respect & admiration. They not only have to deal with the lowest form of society each day, they also have to understand that many law abiding people in today's society no longer appreciate them as they did when I began my career.

NMHUNTNUTT1:

Thanks for the support.....you're right, recruitment is tough right now throughout the entire country. Finding QUALITY applicants is tough these days and agencies simply do not want to lower their standards to fill vacant positions. It's a double edged sword for sure. There may be light at the end of the tunnel, as we're beginning to hire military personnel who have just returned from Iraq and are complete with the military obligation. Talk about operational experience.

BOHNTR )))---------->

RELH · Aug 6, 2007

Bohntr;

You are right on the money in your assesment concerning recruitment. I got out of the Army in 1968 and started my law enforcement career in 1974 to 2003.
During that time I observed that the best street officers were ex-military. They knew how to stay safe and still get the job done. It was very rare to see them pull a bonehead mistake and lose their life, or get the department into hot water by overreacting to a hostile incident.
Keep your management supportive in hiring those Vets with combat experience, the whole department will benefit by a wide margin over hiring non military kids that are wet behind the ears and having no street smarts or common sense.

RELH

eelgrass · Aug 12, 2007

I go to work every morning at about 4:00am when a lot of the dregs of society are most active. Sometimes I think the presence of our fine PD is the only thing between the law abiding citizen and complete chaos. Thank God!

Eel

Califelkslayer · Aug 12, 2007

At my prison, the average officer is getting held involuntarily to a 2nd shift on their Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. Even on their Friday occasionally. (can't work more than 2 double shifts in a row) This has been going on from May through Dec each of the last 3 years. This has caused senior staff to retire early because they can't physically handle it and the problem gets worse. Top step officers are making well over $100,000.00. But they are getting 80-100 hours unwanted overtime each month. Recruitment is ourbiggest problem.

sixgunn · Aug 13, 2007

First off, I don't live in Cali, I'm a utah guy. However, I have been in law enforcement for nearly seven years now. I'm currently a probation/parole officer in SLC. Any person who thinks being a cop is easy, i would say, get your app. in and lets see what your made of. It is a tough job/career, however for me, its very rewarding and hey....someone has to do it. Like BOHNTR, I have knocked down plenty of doors and have been in a lot of hairy situations. Makes you appreciate life and value your family a little more. Cops lay it on the line everyday. I am glad I'm not assigned to a tough area such as LA. Good luck to all cops and remember to be safe!

lucky13 · Aug 13, 2007

BOHNTR-
Well said, everyone has an opinion from a safe distance away.

I just got off duty a little bit ago, and am going back in a few hours. I won't be getting paid either. Just going to drop in on court for a special case. Rackmaster do you every swing by work for a couple of hours, unpaid, just to make sure things are going right? Well I guess I'll take my "overpaid" self back to bed, fluff that pile of money I use as a pillow, and try and get a couple more hours of sleep.

NMHUNTNUTT1 · Aug 14, 2007

My big brother worked for NM corrections for 2 years before becoming a State police officer. I have heard some very crazy ,very scary stories , and believe it takes a very strong person , both mentally and physically to work in that profession. I know I live better because of these people , so to all of you who have posted , I'd ike to say a "THANK YOU " for your unselfish service in the communities you serve and protect.

buncoboy · Aug 20, 2007

Bohntr, So far nothing but respect for you and your past posts. My questions are, how much more do we owe law enforcement officers. They take the job for an agreed amount of compensation and benefits, and should know the risk to them and their families. Yes, I agree it is a hard job, not everyone can do it, and recruiting is tuff, but where do you draw the line on how much we owe them above what they have agreed to work for. Is it free "In & Out" burgers for their entire career. Other free stuff, or what. Do they get to spend hours of work time surfing their favorite hunting sites while being paid. Do they sit in coffee shops for hours talking about their special interest, while being paid. Yes, maybe they might do some free time work, but how much do you think they end up rationalizing that their employer owes them more because of it. This is not a lash out response, just talking about reality, and you being a supervisor must know what I mean.

RELH · Aug 20, 2007

Buncobouy;

I think you have a wrong impression on what a cop's daily routine is all about. I and several other members on this forum could tell you how it really is, but you may choose not to believe us and we wasted our time.
I have a very good suggestion that will let you see forself what the daily routine is for the average cop in your area. Most departments will allow ride alongs for citizens in their area. Go in to your local police dept. or sheriff's dept. and see if they will allow you to do several ride alongs. Most dept. will check your background for arrest record, they do not want the crooks learning how to defeat police procedures, if your record is clear, you should have no problem in taking a ride along for a 8 hour shift with a patrol officer.
This way you will see first hand what goes on. For your information, most departments have rules against officers accepting "free stuff", they can be suspended or fired for violating that rule.
You also may be surprised how much time is taken by officers on report writing, very little time to surf the web sites.
RELH

buncoboy · Aug 21, 2007

RELH, please do not defuse the question with references in which you make very poor assumptions. I just am wondering what "Bohntr thought" about "what else is owed to Officers" as he has proven him self on this site to be somewhat intelligent and hard working. Although after 38 years in law enforcement I would hope he gets to retire soon and do more hunting. If you too would like to contribute to that answer, please do, but you ought to know that not even 100 ride alongs with Officers could ever begin to answer that question.

RELH · Aug 22, 2007

Why should I waste my time.

RELH

buncoboy · Aug 22, 2007

RELH, If that is the attitude you have, then don't waste anyones time. If you are sincere, then this could be an interesting and informative subject. What is wrong with a little communication, debate, education, as long as it is civil and polite ( also without attitude). Sorry pal but freebees still exist in alot of places throughout this country. The ethical and moral question is not how much police officers have contributed to the welfare of our society as what they do can not be thanked enough, the question I have is "how much more does society owe them than what the agreed upon compensation was when they were employed" ????? Do not be afraid to answer that question, I will not bite, promise !

RELH · Aug 22, 2007

buncoboy;

You need to re-read your last post and fully comprehend what you are saying. It is very evident that your bias is showing and because of that bias, I or any other cop would be wasting our time trying to debate or educate you!

RELH

kilowatt · Aug 23, 2007

Well said RELH.

Brian

buncoboy · Aug 23, 2007

RELH, I am sorry that your career made you so cynical that you are afraid to talk to another avid hunter and outdoorsman, who has always supported law enforcement 110%. In fact I always will. There are many careers that help society, law enforcement is one of those. I think this is a great question still, but you seem to want to hide the truth and try to convince others that they should not discuss this. I am sure that some where in your career you saw something wrong and said something about it, thus improving the "professional image". Once again you are welcome to answer this question. It is no secret that certain things occur in different professions that might seem questionable or too hard to understand. Now here you have an oppurtunity and you pass it by, once again making some untrue statements concerning me. Why try to attack me ? There is a simple and truthful answer, I am sure, but now I am having to guess why you are afraid to answer this question. Is it really that hard, or maybe you might feel some guilt in what have done or should have done, I really do not know other than having to guess. Hope you are enjoying retirement, have a good hunt this year.

RELH · Aug 23, 2007

buncoboy;
I am enjoying retirement, since I no longer have to put on the professional face when I run across people like you who are bias and have a axe to grind. Maybe you are trying to live up to your MM handle of "buncoboy" which relates to a person that commits fraud. I find it very interesting that you would pick a handle like that one.
Like I said before, it is very obvious that you have a axe to grind with law enforcement, and debating you will be like pissing in the wind. I will not respond to any further comments you may have.

RELH

buncoboy · Aug 28, 2007

RELH, thanks for your so helpful posts. "People like me". Hope you did not make such poor judgement calls when you were working. My question is not new, and in fact is discussed and taught in some law enforcement administration/supervisor classes. I have thought about this question for a long time and was sincere about hearing opinions. No agenda or bias, infact I have yet to formulate an opinion either way. So I am glad you will not respond anymore because you have danced around the question with insults and if that is all you have, then why waste your time. It would be very interesting to also hear a reply from someone who has been retired for awhile, to see if the answers change as one gets older. Maybe in retirement, deep thinking is not worth the time. Ethics classes have always been and will always be a hard subject in law enforcement, from the academy time and during your training times before you retire. Different agencies have different policies on "free stuff". Retirements give only so much compensation, although if you are in systems like PERS, then you can do very well. One thought I have had is there are so many other professions in this country where people work very hard for a career with no decent retirement system. How can law enforcement expect more with what they get. In California under a PERS retirement system, you can retire at age 50 with just 5 years service, although it is not very much of a resource unless you put in many more years in. My other thought is when an Officer is killed in the line of duty,it seems resources are somewhat limited for the immediate family. I think we owe more. How about an 24-25 year old Officer who works 1-2 years and strains his back where he can not do the same job anymore, then recieve (50% plus) tax free money for life. Work comp laws have changed such that retraining monies have almost disappeared. How much more or less do we owe?

Califelkslayer · Aug 28, 2007

LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-07 AT 01:23AM (MST)[p]Personally I don't want anything from you nor do you owe me anything. I do what I do for myself and my family. The retirement is why I stayed in this profession over 24 years ago, that and job security. I got laid off from the telephone co after 4 years @ 22 years old. Had wife and mortgage. After 10 months with CDC, I got an offer from a small city fire Dept. They had layoffs with Prop 13 and were building their Dept back up. I didn't want to go through the layoff thing @ age 32 so I stayed where I was figuring there'd always be convicts. Made a nice career out of it but it takes a toll accumlatively. I get calls several nights a week @ all hours. Any riot, injury to staff, etc. I feel I make the best decisions possible that affect 70+ officers, sergeants and lieutenants on a daily basis. Not to mention 1150 convicts. One bad decision could cause serious injury or death to a staff member or inmate. That responsibility brings stress you couldn't realize unless you are in that position. I'm well compensated for it though and have no complaints. It is what it is. There are lots of professions I couldn't do but I doubt many could do what I do as well as I do it. Said enough, done!

buncoboy · Aug 29, 2007

Elkslayer, Very well said ! Mature answer to a tuff question. It seems like you made a good choice for you and your family. Yeah, I would agree that very few people can do the prison duty, and especially for alot of years. Did you draw a good elk tag out of state this year? Heard it from my hair dresser ! Good luck huntint this year.

StoneCold · Aug 29, 2007

Well this is my first post here at MM. I can only say I could not stay out of this, so please bear with me....

I will say I am full time LE to give this my "bias". It is often said in LE circles "We don't get paid for what we do, but what we may have to do". That ultimately could be giving our life, or being permanently disabled, while we "protect and serve". That is foremost on my mind and my families every day. So, like most people, I put a very high price on that. I feel I should be able to negotiate what I will "Take" for my willingness to do that. I am continually being held to a higher standard in training, weapons, less lethal, law, medical aid, first responder roles, etc. Like anyone else if I have more training,education, and responsibilities I should expect to get paid more. I should expect that if I am killed in the line of duty, my family will still be able to survive and be provided for. They are "owed" that for my sacrafice.

As for the In and Out burger discounts, or anyone else for that matter. Most of those organizations adopted that policy on their own. They know we have to be out in our cars every day. We are the ones that come "clean up" after robberies, assaults,burglaries, and homicides - at their stores. One restaurant in my area gives us a discount when we eat there. Why? Because we were the ones that came to his rescue when his family was taken hostage in a home invasion robbery. He feels he needs to thank us. Should I deny him his gratitude? The gratitude he feels when he sees us is clearly visible.

I often ask people if they ever try to get a discount on something they are getting. Who doesn't get a Senior Citizen discount when they can? Or how about your Cabela's discount coupons? AAA discounts? NRA discounts? Good driver discounts? Military discounts? I may get a discount on food when I am on duty, by the companies policy, but I never expect it. I don't ever ask for an LE discount off duty.

So, I guess I am only owed what I negotiate for. I know each day that the "bottom line" is - I may not be coming home.

Califelkslayer · Aug 29, 2007

Bunco, no elk tag just a rotten Colorado 3rd season Unit #61 deer tag. I'm stoked!!!

Gonna spend most of the first 2 weeks of Nevada chukar season camped in the desert, maybe all 16 days i have off. Stoked bout that too.

buncoboy · Aug 30, 2007

Stonecold, welcome aboard glad you are out of the closet ( just kidding, can never tell who has thin skin now adays!) "Excellent" first post, I only use In & Out as an example because I love the place. I have believed for awhile that the families of fallen Officers can not be compensated enough. I would like to see the State pay for college anywhere a child of one of these Officers children wants to go to within the state the Officer worked. Up to 8 years full time or equal. It does not matter what agency type, whether state or local. Most states limit the amount of compensation as a one time payment the spouse gets (not including other survival benefits). The amounts always seem very low, especially in todays infladed pricing for housing, etc. I wonder if there is a senator that would author such a bill, or would it be a political suicide bill. Thanks again for joining in!

buncoboy · Aug 30, 2007

Elkslayer, guess my hair dresser was wrong. Wow, nice alternate tag! I have been working so much lately that I have built up lots of bonus points in Colorado and other states. I think I have 10 points in Nevada also. Been mostly bow hunting elk the last several years including tags in Nevada, Arizona, etc. I will dig up the maps in the next week so I can give you the best location. It is out of the way, with an old burn, but I would want to check it out ahead of time, because each year seems to be different. I have an old friend that lives near you ( stones throw), that might be willing to help, I know he has spent alot of time in the area. I have so many good places to hunt that when I retire in December I will not be able to cover them all again. I have max points Calif., but I think Bohntr stole my tag this year (just kidding Bohntr), maybe I will get it next year. By the way your pm (how did I know) Age of the computer !!

buncoboy · Aug 30, 2007

And for all those who are parnoid about my handle, here goes. I originally got on this site with my usual handle, however it was lost in cyperspace. My wife plays bunco with the same women for 20 some years. I named my hunting dog buncoboy after their game. I just used his name as I was going to start a kennel named buncoboy. Buncoboy is a 14 year old black lab that has been retired and is currently dying. Fraud, huh! that actually made me laugh! Lost my thin skin and dignity along time ago! Yes, I wear size 13 shoes and often step on peoples feet, but never intentionally, just like to enjoy life! Firm believer in following every fish & game law, it just makes things more challenging, and I enjoy my self more. Favorite color camo, favorite food is anything in front of me, favorite hunting is whatever the current season is, favorite people are my family, I get up at 3:40 a.m., every work day, lift very heavy weights and run just because I want my hunting oppurtunties and health to be at its best, drive a ford diesel, jeep, and tahoe. Additional hobbies, 27 years taxidermy and basketball. Hope I have not scared any more of you now, thanks Buncoboy !!!!!!

Califelkslayer · Aug 30, 2007

Bunco, didn't scare me but i do admire your "in your face" approach, no BS.

Not sure bout your Pm comment. Do you know that unit well? I've hunted it archery 4-5 times, rifle once and this is the second time my son has had the tag. Don't want to sit on Fox Mt. opening day and have him kill a forked horn with 8 other orange vests looking on. I plan on scouting in earnest after archery season is over. Nothing huge, just pattern a group of bucks, hopefully with a 4 point in the group and no competition. May seem like alot to ask but its very possible in that unit.

BOHNTR · Sep 3, 2007

buncoboy:

Man this post took off, eh? Sorry for the delayed response, I've been chasing muleys in the high country of Colorado.

As for your question......honestly, I don't want or need anything else from folks.....I knew the risks of the job (although now that I'm a Lieutenant I'm told I no longer need a gun

) when I took it. Just a little support/understanding would be appreciated at times is all.

As for the "In & Out" discount.....if I find out my troops partaking in that gratuity, they are disciplined.....it's a violation of our agencies policy (no gratuities). No time to "surf" the web in my bureau (full-time SWAT).....I'm too busy preparing training, budgets, and handling tactical operations.....although I'd love to be able to do it if available.

Are there some officers/deputies that take advantage of the system and take a "longer" lunch break than others? (long hours in the "coffee shop") You bet there is.....no different than any other large organization. But they are not the norm.

Let me relate a story to you. I can remember when I was a young SWAT cop and our team had just finished a 16 hours stand-off with a subject. He finally surrendered and the team was exhausted from being up all night. We decided to all go to a coffee shop and have some much needed food and coffee before securing to go home. You know how many comments were made about the amount of us there and how long (about an hour)? LOTS. Point is, you never know the whole picture by just seeing a portion of the puzzle.

Good luck this season....hope you tip over a good one.

BOHNTR )))---------->

sageman · Sep 3, 2007

buncoboy are you bi chance a Fireman?

buncoboy · Sep 4, 2007

Bohntr, did you have any chances or were you successful in Colorado this year? Breaking down doors all day, you should have every honest citizens support! Well, there goes my In & Out theory! I have no problem with any law enforcement having extended lunch breaks, when you need them, then you need them. When it is time to work, then it is time to work. Hope the rest of your hunts go well. I am dog sitting instead of hunting this fall. Bummer, because I already have tags. I actually have two dogs dying and I am very passionate about both, but there is always next year and I am training very hard for it already. I will just enjoy everyone's else success and stories this year.