Cattlemen want tags now...

[nochawk]

get aload of this.. now the cattlemen want tags to sale.

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_10037067

 

[Hunterted]

This isn't good.

It isn't really much of a surprise. Did you notice the quote about selling a public resource to private groups. Isn't that what we are doing know? Yes they are a non-profit organization but they are still a private organization getting a public resource.

 

[hossblur]

stop this and all the other 'richest guys win" crap by capping the ammount a tag can be sold for and making all hunting seasons the same (why do CWMU's get to hunt from august to novemember?) If you have a rifle tag cwmu or otherwise you get the same season as everyone else. THis does several things, first it makes us all even, second, we could possibly see private lands coming into the states walk-in access program because the money wouldn't be that rediculous, the state wouldn't have to cater to the guides and guide services giving what they want because of the tax money generated by the rich trigger pullers.
Also, perhaps the cattlemen should consider paying fair price for grazing, a cow is charged at one and a half the rate. The half is for the calf, but the calf is nearly grown by the time the cows are on the mtn., plus a calf doesn't as much damage to the land as the cow. I mean go buy hay and see what a deal the cattlemen are getting in grazing on public land, they have zero complaints!

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

First of all hossblur, so far I haven't been impressed by any of your posts. Not one damn thing positive. ALL NEGATIVE. Second, you don't have one damn clue what you are talking about when it comes to CWMU hunts. You talk about making it "equal". You're not equal! YOU don't pay the property tax, YOU don't improve habitat out of your own pocket, YOU don't fix fence that elk herds and trespassers knock down. YOUR hay fields don't support elk and deer in the winter. If it wasn't for the CWMU program public access to these properties would be extremely rare! Right now some of the best odds are on CWMU hunts and they are taking great bulls. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It's all about management! Part of the reason they spread the hunt out is so that the animals aren't bombarded with hunters in a short period of time. They don't feel the pressure that the herds on public land feel when you only have 5 days to hunt. You need to get your facts straight before posting that kind of bull shiP.

Sorry about the side bar.....as for the original post I don't support the cattlemen getting tags at all for grazing on public lands!

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[Inmysights]

Awholelottabull,

I don't post often...and you and I have seen eye to eye before on other posts if I recall. I do have to say....when it comes to the CWMU program here in Utah....it doesn't exactly smell like roses. I am a private land owner and have plenty of exposure to the program. I do see many of the land owners taking full advantage of the program and not really giving much back. The almight $$$$ rules the game with both the CWMU association and the DWR. They forgive tax debt based on the ability to forego development of property. Now...I will say that I am not going to generalize the whole state and ALL CWMU's into that category, but for the most part the DWR serves it's own interests and they do cator to where the $$$$ comes from. As I see it LE-Elk tags on the premium units, auction tags, and CWMU opportunities. I don't feel that the access is proportionate to the advantages that the CWMU's have been given. It would be nice to see what kind of uproar would happen if all of the CWMU's that have been set up throughout the state could no longer get landowner tags and had to just purchase tags like the rest of the public and couldn't use them to their advantage. I would argue that after a while you would see less land locked up and more access. With the elk herds at capacity right now...I still don't see that the elk are overgrazing where the cattle don't have enough food. There are many elk and many cattle where we are and nothing has really changed as the elk herd has increased. The only thing I have seen is higher prices for tags and less access based on the ability to fetch a high price for leases and guided hunters. I will say that ONCE in my life I will get a chance to hunt a bull of a lifetime when I draw my tag...but is it worth it....NOPE IMHO. My children will never enjoy the hunting that I enjoyed as a youth that shaped who I am and the way I live and enjoy the outdoors. They will be lucky to ever draw a tag unless I become part of the problem and figure..if you can't beat em join em and pony up for a couple of tags for my boys.

I do know this....it will only get worse and I doubt it will ever get better. I would agree that opportunity for a trophy animal has never been better but it will cost ya!!!! Or you just got lucky in the utah lottery.

JMO......and sorry for the post hijack!!!!

I respect your opinion...I read many of your posts and would enjoy some candid feedback.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

You make some very valid points with the whole CWMU program. I don't think that the CWMU program is perfect and I do think there could be some changes that would benefit the general public. About the only thing we really differ on oppinion is if the CWMU program were eliminated I think you would see private access drastically reduced in comparison to what the access is now. In the 2008 proclamation there were 253 deer hunters, 112 elk hunters and 35 moose hunters that got to hunt private land due to the CWMU program. That's pretty good access to hunt animals that don't see the pressure the animals see on public lands. I would argue that if you took away the CWMU program and put those tags into their respective units, not even half of those hunters would be hunting private land. The gates would be locked on a lot of ground and trespass fees would go through the roof. I know 3 ranches in particular that before the CWMU program started public access was non existant. Only family got to hunt it. Now family doesn't get to hunt it unless they use an alotted tag for themselves (instead of selling it to another hunter) or drawing the tag in the general draw. I do agree that some CWMU operators abuse the system and are impossible to work with when you draw a tag and are not a paying client. I believe that those are far and few between. Some of the best odds on trophy mule deer, moose and elk are on CWMU properties. That being said, you hit the nail on the head when you said that money dictates everything when it comes to the DWR. It's "whatever and however we can generate funds". I don't know where all this will take us in the future and frankly it's a little scary. Not so much for me, but as you implied, I hope my kids get to enjoy an elk hunt in the future in their home state.

Thanks for posting....you should post more often. Good level headed posts.



It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[hossblur]

Hey whole lotta bull, you and I are banging heads and I get that i am taking shots at your livelyhood. I do not know you or have heard of you which probably means your a stand up guy that runs a good outfit. You expressed your side heres mine. First, your land is most likely in the greenbelt meaning your property taxes are much lower than other commericial buisness which I believe your CWMU is. I agree I don't fix your fences or replace your hay, but elk are pattern animals and that pattern can be changed somewhat. As for my grazing argument, you grow hay whats cheaper hay or mtn range? From a strictly economic stand point( i mean no no ill will) if your ranch cannot stand on its own as a cattle/sheep(whatever) ranch shouldn't it go out of buisness? What I mean is if I poach an elk I will be charged a replacement fine, at one time it was $6000, how much did you reimburse the state for the animals in your CWMU? As for your argument about extended seasons, the animals on public ground are bombarded(your word), what makes a CWMU special? Let me ask you, and if you don't want to hit a competitor thats cool, are you comfortable with an elk bringing 42.5k? Planes and helicopter chasing them? Constant pressure from antler drop to hunting season? Negetive? No, just thinking out loud more than anything. Read my posts, over and over I say you can't blame the guides and land owners, I would do the same. My complaint is with the DWR, and especially lawmakers like the one talked about in this post. Man I ain't hatin on you personally, and i do expect you to defend what you do so I don't take you personally. I thought these forums could be used for info, not just my balls are bigger than yours crap, if I'm wrong tell me where, i'm a big boy I can handle it. In the end it is your land, i'm not telling you what to do with it, but because you own land shouldn't mean that when it comes to hunting/fishing, your rules should be any different than mine. Plus, I challenged you in another forum, be honest, the majority of guys you guide use you because they are lazy.(public ground hunts) and I would bet you get a real kick out of the dudes that show up with the newest magnum, most expensive optics, expensive clothes, all the newest gadgets, etc., and these are the guys that I fear, because money isn't an object to them, are more and more the guys that are catered to in rules and regs. Again, nothing personal!! I'm just talking, if I'm wrong show me where so I don't go off half cocked! Seriously!

 

[hossblur]

Oh, by the way, Management? Not even you believe that. Its about $$$$$ and if the state could figure a way they would give the CWMU's all the time they want because that would generate more money! At some point I hope the biologists get to run the DWR, not the accountants! Improvements? In my buisness we have to invest in our buisness and the government doesn't reimburse me, so you invest in your hunting ground so as to increase either the ammount or quality of your game animals which in turn allows you to bring in more $. Your not doing it out of the kindness of your heart, its buisness, no different than any other right? so why should that get you (CWMU's) any privledges that aren't extented to any other dude with a tag?

 

[hossblur]

alotabull Finally, I do a lot of hunting on the Manti, if your guiding during the muzzl., rifle deer, or late le elk, let me know I'll have you a cold beer and we can argue about fords and chevys or blonde or brunettes, or you can tell me to F@#% off personally, what ever works, believe it or not I appreciate you talking on here, not a lot of CWMU owners are so it is one sided.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

First off let me clarify that I DO NOT own the land we hunt on. It's owned by somebody else. We just get a few tags. I do support the owners though and I have seen the things that they put up with every single hunting season. It is very apparent that Private Property doesn't mean squat to a certain group of hunters. Trespassers are very common. The landowners I know who participate in the CWMU program are gracious enough to guide the public hunters themselves. They take the public hunters where the paying clients go (which is the rule). I can appreciate your concerns and you make some very valid points, however I think that the benefit of CWMU is a win win situation. I really do believe that the public gets tags and access to property that they wouldn't get otherwise. From my experience, I would much rather hunt private land than public any day. I know that if the elk is running away from me, it's probably my fault and not somebody walking in on my setup. As for the clients I guide....they are far from lazy. I do know (and have guided) a few of the hunters you are talking about but ever since I opened my business in Utah I have not had one single lazy hunter. All of the guys I have guided over the past 6 or 7 years are standup hunters. I have had a few that were new to elk hunting but they put in the effort to hike into remote areas to kill a bull. Also, most, but not all, of the hunters helped pack out meat on their backs. I don't doubt that there are hunters out there like you describe but thank goodness they haven't found my hunting camp yet. Sometimes I tend to take things a little personal but I really do respect others oppinions. I do my best to understand the other guy and where he is coming from and sometimes I figure that out after I have spoke my peace. No worries on the oppinion. All are welcome.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[hossblur]

For the record I hunt both. I have access to blm and forest land via the private ground that is below it. He is a friend of mine and I agree, the majority of locked gates were our own fault, not the owners. I agree the CWMU gives access that probably wouldn't happen without it. I'm a dedicated hunter, i did so to extend my time in the field(didn't care about the harvest rules). My contention is just that, the DWR cuts hunter numbers, cuts seasons to 5 days, overtags LE units that took decades to build, moved the muzzleloader to september, etc., then turns around and gives the money men extremely liberal season lengths simply because they can pay for it. yeah i do realize not all you clients are just rich dudes, but I think you get where I'm going with this. But, looks like you and me will just agree to disagree! I'll let you pick the next topic for us to argue about, until then I hope you all are sucessful this season.

 

[nochawk]

Hossblur and AWLB I appreciate that you 2 are keeping it civil. I was thinking that I would have to remove this post but the 2 of you have reduced the personal attacks and agree to disagree on things.

I appreciate that.

Thanks and have a nice day
Nate

 

[hossblur]

Nate, i appreciate the site, it's cool to have a place to discuss this stuff. I am passionate about some of these topics, and it is kinda fun to argue or heatedly discuss issues with guys who disagree but are just as passionate. Thats why when alotabull took me to task I engaged him, he seemed stand up in that he stood up for himself, but didn't just insult me, and in the end I think he is stand up guy. You have a lot of pinheads roaming around in here but the "grown-ups" are interesting to talk with. So thanks

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Hoss - when you mentioned the "money men" are you referring to the auction tags? If so there are only a couple of tags that have liberal hunting seasons and those would be the statewide elk tag (high $), the statewide deer tag (high $) and the sportsmans tag given to average joes like you and me. All the other auction tags run the same dates as all the public hunters. The dates for the CWMU properties can start as early as Sept 1 and run for 60 days from the first day you start hunting. Most hunters enjoy the private ground for 5 days. In fact, out of all my hunters I have only had 1 guy go the entire 5 days. Most fill their tag in the first couple of days. As I said before, the hunts are spread out to reduce the pressure on the animals. I think that a lot of contention on this site is caused by misunderstanding of circumstance (me included) so I try my best to explain why I have the oppinions that I do and back them up with facts. For those that know me personally I am the last person that you would consider confrontational. I appreciate your oppinion Hoss even though I disagree with some of your views. You are absolutely entitled to your oppinions.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[bigthree]

I know right now on the cwmus that are running cattle ranches when asked how much are you getting for your cattle right now.Its how much are you getting for your elk tags, lol. The fords and the christensens run good cwmus for the cattlemen to want this is bogus they fought tooth and nail when tags were cut in the strawberry valley,for cattle now that there are trophy elk all around this state they want a piece of that money pie.Its sad that the cattlmen and sportsman can not agree on things.We need to be united so we can keep the antis off our backs good topic

 

[hossblur]

By money guys I mean the guys that drop 42.5k on an elk hunt. The guys to which money isn't an option. Karl Malone and his 100k to shoot a deer on antelope island. As far as the seasons are concerned, I realize that the liberal seasons allow for the animals to not be spooky, but they are on public ground,so why should a CWMU be different? Money is why, money is the answer to all of the reasons CWMU's are different than public hunts. I don't blame the guides, you guide no matter what the rules are I bet, I blame the DWR. They love the CWMU system. Less management for them, more money for them and the state. But that is biting us now and it will get worse. lawmakers look at what your getting for a hunt and how long until they make the DWR's operating budget dependant soley on tag sells? Why should they fund any wildlife when an elk hunt goes for 7500 to 10k on average? just raise tag prices, people will pay. Secondly, we lost 150,000 hunters from 1985 to now. We have lost politcal clout because or numbers are down. With more and more land going into the CWMU's, the open land is packed which continually helps guys make the decision to quit. I know you said without the CWMU system trespass fees would go up, but they would never get to the prices paid for hunts now. If the private land owner had the same 5 days to rifle deer hunt as me, and the same 2 weekends to rifle elk hunt as me, etc. his animals would be a lot more flighty and harder to hunt because in order to maximize profit, more hunters would be hunting a smaller window of time. Translation would be, yes they would still collect tresspass fees, but who would pay 10k to hunt an elk that acts the very same as an elk on public ground? They pay the money, 1. for access to good ground, 2. to have guides, 3. to have more openings in a season for them to schedule a hunt. Take away that liberal season and you have less of a reason to pay, thus making the ammounts smaller, thus making the DWR less interested in promoting them, thus leveling the field for all hunters, not just those who drop large sums of money. Sorry I just don't think it is the DWR's job to create a commercial buisness for ranches. if they can't cut it financially ranching livestock then like any other buisness that can't make it they should fold up. That land would then be available for the state to purchase, or RMEF, or nature conservancy, or whoever. Ranching/farming is a tricky buisness. They want the government to leave them alone, but they take massive ammounts of aid from it,(pivot lines, greenbelt protection, government trappers, CWMU's, etc.) they complaing about crop/fence damage, but if we wanted to come net all the elk to transplant somewhere else they would melt down because those animals are money to them. They kinda want it both ways, and for the most part they have been successful. Do you hunt private of public land? Then there is an advantage to the CWMU for the land holder or why would you personally hunt it? Hey hows your hunts(personal/guided ) going? Again, thanks for the discussion, doyle won't do it, deseret wouldn't do it, good to have the "other side" to talk with about this stuff.

 

[rfarr]

In Montana we have the Block Managment Areas, while it isn't perfect it kicks the crap out of the CWMU Utah uses. Hopefully we can continue to fight hard as hunters to never let a program like the CWMU in this state.

 

[BrowningRage]

WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: You talk about making it "equal". You're not equal!

I gotta agree with you on that one for sure. Average Joe's are definitely not equal when it comes to CWMU's or the property owners. Thanks for pointing that out.

WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: YOU don't pay the property tax

Actually we do pay property tax, as homeowners and land owners we do pay property tax, which entitles us to harvest "state owned wildlife".
WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: YOU don't improve habitat out of your own pocket, YOU don't fix fence that elk herds and trespassers knock down. YOUR hay fields don't support elk and deer in the winter. If it

The truth of the matter is neither do the landowners. These expenses for lost harvest (In the winter give me a break!) and depridation of property are recovered from government subsidies, paid for by hardworking taxpayers who never step foot on the CWMU.

WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: public access to these properties would be extremely rare!

LOL Yeah, I don't believe the public should have public access to public lands either WHOLELOTTABULL... Sheesh. Land locked public lands are lost to the private landowners who restrict access to them. This land is supposed to be ours!!! Access to those lands should be mandated by the state!!! But we don't want to piss off our rich (usually out of state) landowners now do we???

WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: It's all about management!

I assume by management, you mean restriction of hunting, or tresspassing too for that matter??? On public land??? I agree that we do see better deer on the highly restrictive management units. What happens when the whole state goes to a draw??? Public land won't mean anything anymore.


ANYWAY, I FEEL LIKE THE CATTLEMEN DONT QUITE HAVE ENOUGH POWER YET, MAYBE GIVING THEM OUR WILDLIFE RESOURCES IS A GOOD IDEA... LOL

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

> WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: You talk about
>making it "equal". You're not
>equal!
>
> I gotta agree with you
>on that one for sure.
>Average Joe's are definitely not
>equal when it comes to
>CWMU's or the property owners.
>Thanks for pointing that out.
>
>
>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: YOU don't pay the
>property tax
>
>Actually we do pay property tax,
>as homeowners and land owners
>we do pay property tax,
>which entitles us to harvest
>"state owned wildlife".
>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: YOU don't improve habitat
>out of your own pocket,
>YOU don't fix fence that
>elk herds and trespassers knock
>down. YOUR hay fields don't
>support elk and deer in
>the winter. If it
>
>
>The truth of the matter is
>neither do the landowners. These
>expenses for lost harvest (In
>the winter give me a
>break!) and depridation of property
>are recovered from government subsidies,
>paid for by hardworking taxpayers
>who never step foot on
>the CWMU.
>
>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: public access to
>these properties would be extremely
>rare!
>
> LOL Yeah, I don't believe
>the public should have public
>access to public lands either
>WHOLELOTTABULL... Sheesh. Land locked public
>lands are lost to the
>private landowners who restrict access
>to them. This land is
>supposed to be ours!!! Access
>to those lands should be
>mandated by the state!!! But
>we don't want to piss
>off our rich (usually out
>of state) landowners now do
>we???
>
>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: It's all about management!
>
>
>I assume by management, you mean
>restriction of hunting, or tresspassing
>too for that matter??? On
>public land??? I agree that
>we do see better deer
>on the highly restrictive management
>units. What happens when the
>whole state goes to a
>draw??? Public land won't mean
>anything anymore.
>
>
> ANYWAY, I FEEL LIKE THE
>CATTLEMEN DONT QUITE HAVE ENOUGH
>POWER YET, MAYBE GIVING THEM
>OUR WILDLIFE RESOURCES IS A
>GOOD IDEA... LOL

Wrong answer BrowningRage! Your property taxes entitle you to live on the 1/4 acre building lot you built your house on. It has absolutely nothing to do with hunting public wildlife. Give ME a break. You, my friend, are all about entitlement. Your little "Rage" about the "landlocked public land" is a misinformed statement. I guess depending on which state you live in it may be worse but in Utah there is no such thing. There has to be public access to all public lands which is why there is a COUNTY road that runs right through the ranch that we hunt. Oh how I wish we could shut the gate on that one. It would sure reduce the trespassers that constantly occupy the ranchers time and energy because they feel "entitled" to be there. I don't buy any of your BS at all.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[hossblur]

>> WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: You talk about
>>making it "equal". You're not
>>equal!
>>
>> I gotta agree with you
>>on that one for sure.
>>Average Joe's are definitely not
>>equal when it comes to
>>CWMU's or the property owners.
>>Thanks for pointing that out.
>>
>>
>>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: YOU don't pay the
>>property tax
>>
>>Actually we do pay property tax,
>>as homeowners and land owners
>>we do pay property tax,
>>which entitles us to harvest
>>"state owned wildlife".
>>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: YOU don't improve habitat
>>out of your own pocket,
>>YOU don't fix fence that
>>elk herds and trespassers knock
>>down. YOUR hay fields don't
>>support elk and deer in
>>the winter. If it
>>
>>
>>The truth of the matter is
>>neither do the landowners. These
>>expenses for lost harvest (In
>>the winter give me a
>>break!) and depridation of property
>>are recovered from government subsidies,
>>paid for by hardworking taxpayers
>>who never step foot on
>>the CWMU.
>>
>>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: public access to
>>these properties would be extremely
>>rare!
>>
>> LOL Yeah, I don't believe
>>the public should have public
>>access to public lands either
>>WHOLELOTTABULL... Sheesh. Land locked public
>>lands are lost to the
>>private landowners who restrict access
>>to them. This land is
>>supposed to be ours!!! Access
>>to those lands should be
>>mandated by the state!!! But
>>we don't want to piss
>>off our rich (usually out
>>of state) landowners now do
>>we???
>>
>>WHOLELOTTABULL WROTE: It's all about management!
>>
>>
>>I assume by management, you mean
>>restriction of hunting, or tresspassing
>>too for that matter??? On
>>public land??? I agree that
>>we do see better deer
>>on the highly restrictive management
>>units. What happens when the
>>whole state goes to a
>>draw??? Public land won't mean
>>anything anymore.
>>
>>
>> ANYWAY, I FEEL LIKE THE
>>CATTLEMEN DONT QUITE HAVE ENOUGH
>>POWER YET, MAYBE GIVING THEM
>>OUR WILDLIFE RESOURCES IS A
>>GOOD IDEA... LOL
>
>Wrong answer BrowningRage! Your property
>taxes entitle you to live
>on the 1/4 acre building
>lot you built your house
>on. It has absolutely
>nothing to do with hunting
>public wildlife. Give ME
>a break. You, my
>friend, are all about entitlement.
> Your little "Rage" about
>the "landlocked public land" is
>a misinformed statement. I
>guess depending on which state
>you live in it may
>be worse but in Utah
>there is no such thing.
> There has to be
>public access to all public
>lands which is why there
>is a COUNTY road that
>runs right through the ranch
>that we hunt. Oh
>how I wish we could
>shut the gate on that
>one. It would sure
>reduce the trespassers that constantly
>occupy the ranchers time and
>energy because they feel "entitled"
>to be there. I
>don't buy any of your
>BS at all.
>
>It's always an adventure!!!
>www.awholelottabull.com

Man check it out lotta, you and me are on the same page. Paying property taxes doesn't do much more than pay for public schools. The only thing I wonder is how much does your rancher pay in taxes while runing a hunting unit(how much is greenbelted, etc.) If he pays taxes like any other commercial buisness then I have zero to say, if he can hide it in the belt, then that needs to be changed. But your right, private is private! Bet you didn't think we could agree on anything! I DO disaree on your not loving the sheep, mutton in the dutch oven in straight from gods hand!!!!