Caution Using Other's Handloads

[HikeHunt61]

I don’t want to come off preachy, so if this offends anyone, please accept my apologies. But I really feel that new hunters or those who in the past only used factory ammo may benefit:

With the lack of ammunition this year, some folks are turning to having others load for them, or even worse, getting some guy’s existing handloads as part of a deal. I’ve read threads on forums that look exactly like that. When supply/demand gets out of whack, people can be more willing to take risks- both on the supply and demand ends.

In my opinion- there are two major concerns with handloads not worked up for a specific rifle:

• The load may not be appropriate for the gun. The load may have been fine for one rifle, but too hot for another one. Or the COAL worked well in one magazine but is too long or marginal for another. Or the COAL for that load fits fine in the magazine, but the bullet runs hard into the lands. Or….
• The process used to “manufacture” the loads was not consistent and 110% safe. Did they full length size the brass? Did they accidentally use magnum primers when standards were called for? Did they check each powder charge individually, and once again confirmed powder charge before seating the bullet? Did they perform inspections at every step of the process? So many ways to mess it up…

Some folks do not realize that factory loads are very conservative within specifications, and the process used is nearly “bullet proof”. Handloads from a source you are not intimately familiar with may not be.

I guess my concern comes down to this: I would NEVER give my existing loads to someone else to use in their gun. Not without going through the same process I personally use to develop loads for a specific rifle, which includes reviewing results of incremental loads in that gun. I would need a personal relationship with the person. Yet it’s clear that is happening out there. I’m sure 9 times out of 10 it works out fine. Just worried about 1) or 2) above biting someone in the butt that one time.

 

[HIcountryman]

Sound advice

 

[Zeke]

Yessir that is VERY sound advice.

Unless a load has been "properly" worked up for someone's particular rifle, that same someone should NEVER fire anyone else's handloads in their rifle for the reasons mentioned above and many more.

My brother and I have several rifles of the same chambering and our loads are NEVER the same!!!!!! We cannot ASSume that loads are okay even if made by the best handloaders out there (which they wouldn't share ammo if they're really that good anyway).

Yessir, yours is timely advice in these crazy times.

Best, Zeke

 

[elkassassin]

Did REDDOG Load You up Some Tamped Loads?

 

[yotebuster17]

I threw my pet load in my trusty 7mm STW after I got it back from rebarreling it and if blew the primer clean out of it. Never had pressure signs with the previous barrel. Lesson learned. Had to step down 2.7 grains on it.

 

[elkassassin]

Quit Tampin the F'N Powder!

I threw my pet load in my trusty 7mm STW after I got it back from rebarreling it and if blew the primer clean out of it. Never had pressure signs with the previous barrel. Lesson learned. Had to step down 2.7 grains on it.

 

[yotebuster17]

Quit Tampin the F'N Powder!

That’s the only way I could fit 122gr of h1000 in a 7mm STW ??‍

 

[HikeHunt61]

That’s the only way I could fit 122gr of h1000 in a 7mm STW ??‍

I had to look that bad boy up (STW)- the cartridge pic doesn't even fit on the printed manual page (well, almost not)!! My 280AI only runs in the 60gr powder range for extruded powders

 

[Bwht4x4]

I had to look that bad boy up (STW)- the cartridge pic doesn't even fit on the printed manual page (well, almost not)!! My 280AI only runs in the 60gr powder range for extruded powders

Mike,

What's your secret special recipe for your 280 ai? I'm working up a load currently with the 143 gr Hammer bullets using H4381sc. Have a full series of loaded cartridges ready to go, but work has me stuck behind the computer.

 

[HikeHunt61]

LOL- 4831sc is my "secret" indeed! For my gun, using Sierra 150SBTs it's 59.7 gr. I can send you a pic of the first three shot group, it was magical. Of course I started grains lower (and above)- but that seemed to hit the right resonance with my barrel.

For 140 gr, it came out to 62gr for my gun. Nice groups (sub 1"), but not as good as with the 150. They run a little hotter- it was the max load I attempted.

I tried various charges with other powders as well (RL19, IMR4831, RL22) but sc was just scary the best. The chrono with 4 shots came out to a Std Dev of less than 10 for every load I tried. Not always the best indicator, but it sure correlated with results in this case.

 

[roadrunner]

I guess my concern comes down to this: I would NEVER give my existing loads to someone else to use in their gun.

I would.

I use published data and don't deviate from it. All casings are trimmed to jig/no-go lengths, chamfered, and reamed. All poweder is hand measured via a digital scale calibrated before each loading run. Bullet seating depth is to COL published numbers. Loads perform flawlessly in different rifles.

Unless a load has been "properly" worked up for someone's particular rifle, that same someone should NEVER fire anyone else's handloads in their rifle for the reasons mentioned above and many more.

My brother and I have several rifles of the same chambering and our loads are NEVER the same!!!!!! We cannot ASSume that loads are okay even if made by the best handloaders out there (which they wouldn't share ammo if they're really that good anyway).

Can't go wrong using published data and the same loads are interchangeable for us.

Most hunting rifles aren't that finicky and there is a larger margin of error on a mass production run of factory loads than someone with OCD loading their own using published data.

 

[Bluehair]

That’s the only way I could fit 122gr of h1000 in a 7mm STW ??‍

I’ve seen some crazy velocities claimed from STW guys….now I know why. 80 grains is more like it for me.

 

[HikeHunt61]

Roadrunner- I'm sure you are experienced and safe. And OCD, just like me

But regarding "Can't go wrong with published data":

An inexperienced handloader surely can go wrong with published data. All manuals publish max loads. Of course, they also tell you, way up front in the manuals, to start 5% less (or something like that) and work your way up- because the threshold for overpressure is different in every gun. I'm sure you do exactly that, and when you say you share loads you back way off to those lower charges, and also meet all the other conservative standards.

My concern about sharing handloads is that some folks are less experienced than you, don't know that they are (no mal intent), but nonetheless provide a "published" load that works just fine in their gun, but is far too much for another gun. The inexperienced person receiving the handloads has no idea the supplier was inexperienced too.

As for finicky rifles- about 25% of the strings I've developed (for Rem Mod 700s, Kimber 8400, Fierce Edge models) have developed high pressure signs half way up the load progression. If I had used the published max load right out of the chute, I would have needed a cheater bar to open my bolt (best case assuming nothing worse). Maybe to your point, I've never had an issue with the lowest published powder charge.

 

[roadrunner]

But regarding "Can't go wrong with published data":

An inexperienced handloader surely can go wrong with published data. All manuals publish max loads

No they don't only publish max loads. For instance, Nosler's manuel will publish a low, medium, and max load with the best performing powders out of their test rifle (non-custom) for a particular bullet. Loading to published data in this instance, you will get comparable results.

Factory ammo manufacturers cannot account for all makes and models of rifles, so they will do something similar.

Handloading a middle, or average, published powder weight and following the SAAMI specs is a safe bet for anyone who isn't an experienced handloader who normally uses factory ammo as they likely don't have a custom rifle.

 

[Bluehair]

I have seen wide variation in load data between different manuals. And if you have really old manuals, that’s another thing.

 

[mtmuley]

I would never use anyone else's handloads in my rifles. There is no way to tell if it is safe. I have rifles of the same cartridge and my loads don't interchange. They won't even chamber from one rifle to the other. I have other loads that are above book max. Fine in my rifles, bad news in others.Bad practice to just shoot anything. mtmuley

 

[roadrunner]

I wouldn't give my loads to someone else if I didn't think they'd be safe. There is a reason there are SAAMI specs.

Again, all factory ammo is safe in a stock rifle, so...

 

[BrianID]

Good word of caution. I also would not trust most others loads to shoot in my gun. I have had issues with factory ammo being too long for a factory rifle, so I don’t even trust factory ammo 100%. I only trust ammo that I have personally verified in the gun myself. I feel confident that I could load ammo that is just as safe as factory ammunition but my time is too valuable for me to load for anyone with the exception of close friends or family.

A good piece of advice is to not make it a practice to load above book max for powder. Yes you can do it safely but if I really want to load my 300 win mag hotter, I could just buy a 300 ultra instead. I’ve also never been in a hunting situation that the extra 50 or 100 FPS makes any significant difference. The extra stress on your brass and barrel in addition to the time to work up the hot load generally isn’t worth it. I’ve often found the most accurate load is below book max powder load anyway.

 

[roadrunner]

Another thing to note: just because a bullet weight is avaliable for your caliber doesn't mean you can load and shoot it.

Prime example is the "new" 6.8 mm in 160 and 170 grain offerings. Don't use these in a standard .270 Winchester. Your max weight on a stock barrel in this is 150 grains...

 

[Zeke]

I wouldn't give my loads to someone else if I didn't think they'd be safe. There is a reason there are SAAMI specs.

Again, all factory ammo is safe in a stock rifle, so...

Partially true except for I’ve had a long history in the shooting and sporting good industry and I’ve seen factory ammo destroy factory rifles!
If you’re loading vanilla loads for yourself and pushing the shoulder back to sammi specs, so they “work” in everyone’s rifles, then you’re missing out on lots of brass longevity and accuracy / velocity performance BUT what the hey, if it works for you, forge ahead.

For everyone else, don’t shoot someone else’s reloads.

Zeke

 

[Weiserbucks]

Threads like these reinforce my theory that some of our members should stick to archery.

 

[roadrunner]

Partially true except for I’ve had a long history in the shooting and sporting good industry and I’ve seen factory ammo destroy factory rifles!
If you’re loading vanilla loads for yourself and pushing the shoulder back to sammi specs, so they “work” in everyone’s rifles, then you’re missing out on lots of brass longevity and accuracy / velocity performance BUT what the hey, if it works for you, forge ahead.

For everyone else, don’t shoot someone else’s reloads.

Zeke

More to the story on factory ammo and factory rifles with isolated instances, otherwise factory ammo wouldn't be available because of the liability.

This thread was started on a premise that each handload is very specific for every specifc rifle. That is simply not true.

A guy with a long history in the shooting and sporting goods industry should know that...

 

[roadrunner]

Threads like these reinforce my theory that some of our members should stick to archery.

You have no idea. Forrest Fairies are way more anal than Boom-stickers.

 

[Homer]

We can argue this all day in all directions.......but the advice of the OP was spot on.

 

[Zeke]

More to the story on factory ammo and factory rifles with isolated instances, otherwise factory ammo wouldn't be available because of the liability.

This thread was started on a premise that each handload is very specific for every specifc rifle. That is simply not true.

A guy with a long history in the shooting and sporting goods industry should know that...

You’re right, on some points, so you win.
No one should tell you what to do and your mind cannot be changed by a couple of us old internet warriors.
I’m sure those who shoot your reloads will be fine?.
I can name rifles that were hot hot hot with mid-range book reloads and mild in the very same chambered rifle right next to it but I don’t expect you to believe that either.
It’s interesting that velocities vary so much from rifle to rifle because of PRESSURE.
So much for sammi specs

 

[roadrunner]

You’re right, on some points, so you win.
No one should tell you what to do and your mind cannot be changed by a couple of us old internet warriors.
I’m sure those who shoot your reloads will be fine?.
I can name rifles that were hot hot hot with mid-range book reloads and mild in the very same chambered rifle right next to it but I don’t expect you to believe that either.
It’s interesting that velocities vary so much from rifle to rifle because of PRESSURE.
So much for sammi specs

You're right. When someone wildcats for their rifle, weird things can happen.

For a rifle to be that different for barrels to heat up, another variable was at play that either you weren't aware of or won't tell.

Those who shoot my reloads are fine and have been for quite some time . The reason I can say that is because my reloads are not tailored to any particular rifle. They are tailored to a standard any novice can buy off the shelf and go hunting with.

I'm glad you're one of two of those old internet warriors. Your sage wisdom is beyond compare and how dare anyone question your anecdotal evidence with their own...

 

[roadrunner]

We can argue this all day in all directions.......but the advice of the OP was spot on.

You're right. If someone works up a load for their rifle and all the petty nuances for it and then just gives that load to someone else isn't worth their salt in reloading

The OP said don't use another's load or give your load away. This would be true for custom rifles with custom loads. If that load was that finicky, I wouldn't trust it either.

A load set to standard factory specs isn't going to cause a lot of the spot on advice problems in the OP.

And then someone else said that factory ammo is dangerous so don't trust it either...

 

[Bluehair]

I have never heard of a “wildcatter” who had someone else load for him.

SAMMI is a good place to start. Custom chambers are very rare, at least in my world. I have heard of tight chambers from worn out reamers.

 

[Homer]

I have a buddy that reloads and has for 30 years.......I wouldn't touch off a reload of his in his rifle....let alone mine......


Technically roadrunner is right.....

 

[Bluehair]

I have a buddy that reloads and has for 30 years.......I wouldn't touch off a reload of his in his rifle....let alone mine......


Technically roadrunner is right.....

Chrono some factory stuff….what I saw the last time I did was scary (deviations).

 

[RookieWYhntr]

I would probably only use someone's reloads if the brass are brand new. Those of you who actually knows anything about reloading knows that new brass are exponentially shorter at the shoulder than once fired brass.

Also, I would bet most reloads will not even fit in other rifles. Assuming they are only pushing the shoulder back 2 thou or less.

BTW, if factory ammo doesn't fit and or over pressured in a production rifle then I would return the rifle and not the ammo.

 

[Chesterwyo]

I would probably only use someone's reloads if the brass are brand new. Those of you who actually knows anything about reloading knows that new brass are exponentially shorter at the shoulder than once fired brass.

Also, I would bet most reloads will not even fit in other rifles. Assuming they are only pushing the shoulder back 2 thou or less.

BTW, if factory ammo doesn't fit and or over pressured in a production rifle then I would return the rifle and not the ammo.

So a 30-06 case that some dummy filled with bullseye or blue dot would be ok? As long as the brass is new?

 

[roadrunner]

I would probably only use someone's reloads if the brass are brand new. Those of you who actually knows anything about reloading knows that new brass are exponentially shorter at the shoulder than once fired brass.

Also, I would bet most reloads will not even fit in other rifles. Assuming they are only pushing the shoulder back 2 thou or less.

BTW, if factory ammo doesn't fit and or over pressured in a production rifle then I would return the rifle and not the ammo.

I've reloaded .270 WSM for two different rifles, one a M70 Winchester and the other is a Browning. Casings are not kept separate and feed just fine. Full length resizing die. Same powder and charge, primer, bullet seat depth.

Also reload for 3 different .270 Win. One is another M70 Winchester, one is a Savage, the third is a Ruger. Casings are not kept separate. Same resizing, same powder and charge, same bullet seat depth, and same primer.

It appears some are overthinking this. However, if a load is worked up to seat the bullet a couple of thousandths off the lands, then it may not be a good idea to use that cartridge in someone else's rifle. Most factory ammo doesn't come that way.

Handloading, using published data without deviating from it and seating the bullet to factory COL in all likelihood will not cause a problem in most any rifle out there.

 

[mtmuley]

If you aren't hand loading to tune loads for a specific rifle, either factory or custom, you are wasting your time anyway. mtmuley

 

[elkchaserreturns]

Hello roadrunner,
I would say that what you say above is probably true, maybe 95% of the time. I have been loading my own ammo since 1972 and have never had a problem.
I always start with reduced loads & work my way up watching for signs of pressure.
Pressure signs or not, I never exceed published limits in any of my loads, , , , ever!
I never change the components once a load is proven safe, , , , ever!
I always full length resize for hunting loads.
I always seat my bullets to fit in the magazine and do not worry about the rifling.

I have shared hand loaded ammunition with friends & family many times and never had a problem.

In that last statement, I have probably just been lucky.

Back in the eighties, a coworker & I were going on a deer hunt together and he asked if I could load up some 308 win ammo for his pre 64 model 70.
No problem.
I always insist that we work up a load! Not just pick a published load & assume it is safe because it is published!
People that do that are just plain stupid!

He wanted to load a 165 Sierra Boat tail
As I recall, the powder we chose was Win 748, Winchester case, & CCI 200 primer.
I do not remember the amount of powder. What I do remember was that the starting load was flattening primers. The 2nd load had complete primer separation! Had I simply picked a mid range, PUBLISHED LOAD, he may well have ended up with a wrecked rifle, or worse.

As tedious, time consuming, and expensive, as it is, it is not worth the risk to assume anything when it comes to handloads.

Elkchaser

 

[elkassassin]

That Buddies Name Isn't REDDOG is it?

I have a buddy that reloads and has for 30 years.......I wouldn't touch off a reload of his in his rifle....let alone mine......


Technically roadrunner is right.....

 

[roadrunner]

If you aren't hand loading to tune loads for a specific rifle, either factory or custom, you are wasting your time anyway. mtmuley

Sometimes you're wasting your time by chasing a tailored load when a published load using the most accurate powder listed and most accurate charge for that powder can consistently produce 3" groups at 500 yds...

 

[mtmuley]

Sometimes you're wasting your time by chasing a tailored load when a published load using the most accurate powder listed and most accurate charge for that powder can consistently produce 3" groups at 500 yds...

I agree. I load for myself and my family's rifles. I wring the last bit of accuracy I can from them. That's why I do it. My handloads may or may not be safe in another rifle. I don't chance it. If you shoot sub MOA at 500 yards with a book load, great. That doesn't happen often, especially in factory rifles. mtmuley

 

[roadrunner]

I agree. I load for myself and my family's rifles. I wring the last bit of accuracy I can from them. That's why I do it. My handloads may or may not be safe in another rifle. I don't chance it. If you shoot sub MOA at 500 yards with a book load, great. That doesn't happen often, especially in factory rifles. mtmuley

It's been the case with 3 different calibers/cartridges in 7 different rifles.

 

[Zeke]

Seven times in a row is excellent anecdotal evidence but it's not quality empirical evidence. Not sure if you can accept that or not.

Eventually, if you do it with enough rifles, you'll run into one or more that you cannot interchange the brass with other rifles. But you probably already know that.

I'm not telling you anything new but fired brass takes a "set" when fired at 60,000 +/- PSI and in some instances the cases cannot be sized (because of the "brass spring" characteristics) enough to interchange, even with the use of a FL sizer screwed down past-tight against the shell holder.

Technically you're loading for their rifles rather than just swapping reloads with some rummy and you're fortunate on the consistent chamber specs of those rifles so far.

Zeke

 

[SS!]

@JPickett gives great handloads

 

[JPickett]

That little mans syndrome sure is easy to trigger