Comparing NR tag numbers in F, G and H

[mightyhunter]

I was looking at deer populations and NR tag Quotas in 3 different regions in Western Wyoming. I wish that I had looked at these figures while the local G&F was proposing significant changes in deer hunting seasons in March and April of 2019 in Region F. I am left with some serious questions of what the local biologists and wardens are really concerned about.

Region G has a Quota of 400 tags for NR and a population of 30K mule deer.

Region H has a quota of 600 tags for NR and a population of 17K mule deer.

Region F had a quota of 750 tags for NR through 2018 in Region F. That was considerably higher than the NR tag Quota in G&H for the same year. That has now been reduced to 550 tags for NR in 2019. The population in Region F consists of the Clarks Fork Herd and the Upper Shoshone Herd. The total population of both herds is less than 12k mule deer.

Unless I am missing something, why on earth was the G&F in the Cody Region allowing the sale of 750 NR F mule deer tags through 2018? With G&F complaining of a large crisis in mule deer populations in Region F, why did they only reduce the NR tag Quota to 550? These facts bear some real scrutiny.

Is what the G&F doing a real concern over mule deer in crisis or something else? Are they more concerned with the money raised for deer tags sold and income received, or are they selling out the resource to protect the numerous outfitters in the region. Instead of cutting the seasons, the G&F would have been better served to cut the F tag NR Quota down to less than 300 tags to be sold.

just sayin...mh

 

[grosventrehunter]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-19 AT 07:02PM (MST)[p]Makes you wonder what the GnF is worried about most. Worried about the cash flow. They cater to the NR and WYOGA. Never would of said that a few years ago, but they have proven it year after year.

It's time to cut NR tags across the board, period. It is ridiculous how many NR tags Wyoming gives out. Make up the difference ($) by raising the resident fees.

 

[mightyhunter]

I agree with you. When they say they are trying to save the resource, it makes you wonder what they are really up to. The resident hunters really got taken by the local G&F with all the changes in the deer season dates in the Cody area.

just sayin...mh

 

[BluffGruff]

>LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-19
>AT 07:02?PM (MST)
>
>Makes you wonder what the GnF
>is worried about most. Worried
>about the cash flow. They
>cater to the NR and
>WYOGA. Never would of said
>that a few years ago,
>but they have proven it
>year after year.
>
>It's time to cut NR tags
>across the board, period. It
>is ridiculous how many NR
>tags Wyoming gives out. Make
>up the difference ($) by
>raising the resident fees.

Not sure your argument holds any water. The 400 region G nonresident hunters arent putting 10% of the pressure of the 4000+ residents who hunt there. That area needs totally limited tags... unless I move to wyoming.

 

[grosventrehunter]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-19 AT 09:40PM (MST)[p]Until you move here, I care very little about your opinion. NR should be getting 10% or less of the available tags.

Where are you pulling the 4000+ residents hunting G? GnF? Weird I hunt H and G almost every year as do several friends and never once has the GnF asked where I/we hunt. So it's either an assumption on your part, or the GnF. If you believe what the GnF is telling you please go back and read the original post.

 

[nfh]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-19 AT 06:38AM (MST)[p]Mightyhunter,

I did have a long spout of crap I want to say but I decided to delete it. Im not going to loose sleep over it anymore. The only way you can get somewhere is be in someones pocket at the game and fish. No need for me to mention the names but you know who I am talking about. After you and I attended several meetings and they swore up and down that this wont happen and on week 2 KA-BAM they did it anyway.


mightyhunter I am going to send you a pm, I have a story to tell ya

 

[nripepi]

Could it be based on the popularity of those units for Resident hunters where G, then H and then F are the most popular? Then they are giving the non-residents 10% in G, a higher % in H and then an even higher % in F? Where the G&F is trying to maximize revenue while not depleting the resource based on total hunters and available bucks?

I have no idea if that is correct, but it is probably something I would look at. There are estimates on hunters by Unit and Herd Units if someone wants to crunch the numbers:

[https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Hunting/Harvest Reports/HR2018_Deer.pdf]

 

[appaloosa]

You should look closely at the harvest success between the two herd units too. The G&F is probably basing their tag numbers to some extent on the "expectation" that hunters will kill a certain number of deer. Some of the WY Range units, nonresidents have nearly 60% harvest success. The Upper Shoshone and Clarks Fork are much lower ~ 30%. More tags doesn't necessarily mean more dead deer.

 

[Daxter]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-19 AT 02:50PM (MST)[p]The number of non-resident buck tags issued for those units is totally a social/political/economic decision.

At this scale it doesn't have anything to do with struggling populations or deer biology. How you hunt bucks isn't going to make or break the deer herd. It might affect trophy quality, but in most cases buck tags have almost nothing to do with managing mule deer populations.

Again, bucks have very little to do with population management. You have to have a minimal number of them to do the breeding, but WY has buck to doe ratios that are way above biological thresholds.

If you really want to gauge what WYGF is doing to show they care about deer populations look at what they are doing with regard to - habitat work (restoration, improvement, protection, acquisition), predator management, disease management, protection of migration corridors, efforts to reduce highway mortality, etc. That is the kind of stuff that actually affects deer populations.

How you hunt bucks is almost entirely social.

Dax

 

[mightyhunter]

I could look at the harvest rates to see if there is a reason for the difference in the actual harvest versus the deer populations. Unfortunately, much of the harvest data In Region F is based on what I would generously call "speculation". Check stations are non existent in 105 and 106. Random checks are virtually non-existent in any of the units. The check station that monitors harvest on the North and South Fork of the Shoshone is only open for about 8 hours during the peak of the deer season. Many of the outfitters are housing hunters in lodges, tents and cabins along the North Fork and South Fork corridors and don't always pass through the check stations when they are open. There is no mandatory harvest reporting so basically you are looking at after season deer counts to determine harvest. That is problematic when you are talking about deer herds that are migratory. Of course the people doing the counts, are the same people overselling tags, changing season dates and basically satisfying their own agendas.

So would everyone be all right with G&F selling high numbers of NR deer tags in Region F knowing full well that harvest will be nil? If you are, than I guess it is all about the money and not the resource. It is unfortunate that the G&F, or any state employees or agencies, are not subject to the Consumer Protection Act now in place in Wyoming. If they were, they might be more careful about what they said or did.

just sayin...mh

 

[BluffGruff]

>LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-19
>AT 09:40?PM (MST)
>
>Until you move here, I care
>very little about your opinion.
>NR should be getting 10%
>or less of the available
>tags.
>
>Where are you pulling the 4000+
>residents hunting G? GnF? Weird
>I hunt H and G
>almost every year as do
>several friends and never once
>has the GnF asked where
>I/we hunt. So it's either
>an assumption on your part,
>or the GnF. If you
>believe what the GnF is
>telling you please go back
>and read the original post.
>

Fair to say 4400 resident hunters is the estimate based on surveys for the units that make up region G. I might move to Wyoming so you have to care what I think. I know that would hurt

 

[Buffs35]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-19 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-19
>AT 09:40?PM (MST)
>
>Until you move here, I care
>very little about your opinion.
>NR should be getting 10%
>or less of the available
>tags.
>
>Where are you pulling the 4000+
>residents hunting G? GnF? Weird
>I hunt H and G
>almost every year as do
>several friends and never once
>has the GnF asked where
>I/we hunt. So it's either
>an assumption on your part,
>or the GnF. If you
>believe what the GnF is
>telling you please go back
>and read the original post.
>
I don't know why you're mad at NRs. It's your state employees that make the rules and set the limits. If I were you, I'd be mad that Wyo is guilty of outfitter welfare like the rest of the western states. Can't charge big bucks to guide if you ain't got no clients.

 

[grosventrehunter]

Not mad at NR at all for hunting, getting tags, etc. I have helper more NR than residents. What upsets me is NR telling residents what we need to do and how we need to do it. If you have read any of my posts over the years you will know how I feel about WYOGA, the wilderness law and outfitters in general.

 

[grosventrehunter]

Once again it's all an assumption on how many people hunt H and G. The GnF surveys are far from accurate.

Move on out we love to have you. Then you will understand what I've been talking about.

 

[crcountry]

NM Has mandatory harvest reporting. Complete it, or you wont get another license. WY outfitters/tag allocation/welfare program is similar to NM, except only 16% go to NR....10% and 6% I believe. Outfitter vs. DIY ratio. As a NR, I appreciate the increased WY allocation to NR's. AZ, MT, UT, NV, and most others are 10%.Colorado is 35% in some cases except for high demand units.

Seems to reason that with proper harvest data, WY could better manage their decimated mule deer populations.

My only wish: No more preference points. Anywhere. The point system is a good money maker, but then people draw their coveted tag, and leave the state/system entirely. Like me with CO. And same with NV. When I draw my Sheep, ELk, and MD tag, then no more money out of my wallet for NV. Same with UT. Draw, and I'm done.

 

[jm77]

>Seems to reason that with proper
>harvest data, WY could better
>manage their decimated mule deer
>populations.

Wyoming gets proper harvest data. Coupled with post season counts, there is more than adequate information to manage the herds.

 

[grosventrehunter]

Jim, how does Wyoming get proper kill data? Their mailed out surveys? Those get tossed in the garbage around my house, since they are pretty much useless, not to mention the phone calls. The last few times I spoke with them they never asked what units I hunted. Can't remember the last time I had to stop at a GnF check station. Just trying to figure out why you believe they are so accurate with their harvest numbers, and in which units the game was harvested in.

 

[Millsworks]

I can't see why it would be a bad idea to require every person that gets a big game tag to have to fill out a harvest report with the type animal harvested, date of kill, and the unit it was taken in.
Seems like common sense to me.......
But, then someone has to read all that info and load it into a computer. That could get to be man hour costly.
A mandatory online report should be the way to go.
I can certainly attest to the low deer numbers in the 105+106 units.
Saw lots and lots of coyote, bear and some wolf sighn every where though.
A hefty dent in the coyote population would help that whole region alot, especially the northern parts of F.
I hope to take out as many coyotes as I can this October in region F.

 

[grosventrehunter]

I would completely agree. Most states require it, Wyoming should do the same.

 

[BluffGruff]

>Once again it's all an assumption
>on how many people hunt
>H and G. The GnF
>surveys are far from accurate.
>
>
>Move on out we love to
>have you. Then you will
>understand what I've been talking
>about.


Might just in a few years. Get job offers from WY daily.

 

[junior]

Hunting G we saw a couple yotes before the snow and didn't think much of it. However after a few inches we were blown away looking at tracks! The spot was overrun with them! We even saw a couple sets of cat tracks.

The migratory bird survey would be a model to follow on a deer report. It's a federal deal, but they ask questions on the report and have a survey/comment section. (Question like...how many black ducks did you see while goose hunting?) I wouldn't see the harm in including question on the report about predator sightings.

 

[jm77]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-19 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-19 AT 09:43?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-19 AT 09:18?PM (MST)

>Jim, how does Wyoming get proper
>kill data? Their mailed out
>surveys? Those get tossed in
>the garbage around my house,
>since they are pretty much
>useless, not to mention the
>phone calls. The last few
>times I spoke with
>them they never asked what
>units I hunted. Can't remember
>the last time I had
>to stop at a GnF
>check station. Just trying to
>figure out why you believe
>they are so accurate with
>their harvest numbers, and in
>which units the game was
>harvested in.

It's Jeff not Jim, you know that. Kinda funny you throw the surveys away, but you want mandatory reporting. The surveys I get are anything but useless.

First, I get survey notification every year, like most people I know, in the mail and via email. It has a code that gets me into the survey online, which I find the easiest. The survey won't let you complete without giving the areas you hunt and other information. I'm not exactly sure what percent of hunters per area respond, but I am told with the models they use, there is over 90% accuracy with the responses received in determining harvest.

Coupled with post season surveys, which are actually more important, G&F determine numbers of animals, buck/doe and doe/fawn ratios. The they G&F determine the next year seasons and quotas. Obviously, severity of winters come into play. The biologist and wardens say it works. You may disagree. But I could almost guarantee you that people criticize some of your methods at work, but you know darn well those are the proper procedures.

I don't have anything against mandatory surveys. I am told they would be expensive and are not necessary. I know for certain they have nothing to do with "decimated" mule deer herds.

By the way, if you ever want to sit in on an MDI meeting or get the info, I can arrange that.

 

[hawkbill]

This is happening in every state- it's the new norm it's called opportunity hunting,

 

[WapitiBob]

Opportunity is what the western game dept customer bases are asking for.

 

[mightyhunter]

I am in favor of mandatory harvest reporting. It may be expensive, but so is spending millions of sportsman's dollars on grizzly bear management and control. Look at how many G&F employees are on the payroll who spend their time managing grizzly bears. In the Cody Region it is staggering. Large carnivore biologists, trapping teams, relocation teams, bear information specialists and so called "bear experts" are everywhere.

I am sure that in some mule deer areas, the post season mule deer counts are accurate. However, If they are so darn accurate, why do we have check stations? Is it in hopes of catching just a few idiots? In NW Wyoming, I do not believe the post season surveys are accurate. In NW Wyoming they are manipulated by those making the counts. This year while personally conferring with a biologist and a warden (Sunlight/Crandall) in late November of 2018, they told me they had already made the decision to propose cutting the mule deer seasons before they had gotten even close to completing the counts for the year 2018. Decisions like this should not be based on agendas or intuition. There should not be decisions in search of a reason. The public meetings in March and April in Powell and Cody were just a dog and pony show to make it look like hunters were being listened to. What a joke. Another joke is the assurance that the seasons will be restored if numbers increase. However, the biggest joke is how, for prior years, the NR F Tags were set at 750 and just this year at 550 despite the fact that the Clarks Fork Herd and Upper Shoshone had never been any where near management goals for over 25 years.

The F tags are a cash machine for pensions, wages, benefits, pickups and bear management. Maybe other regions are the same. This year they just doubled down on insuring that tags will sell and harvest will be nil. I said in an earlier post, it is unfortunate that the G&F is not subject to the Consumer Protection Act in Wyoming that governs private citizens and entities. Does anyone think the G&F does not engage in "inherently deceptive practices" when it comes to the hunting public?

When I started this post, my goal was simply directed at why do NR tag numbers bear little correlation to the deer population for a particular region? Why do they bear little or no correlation to management objectives for mule deer numbers in those regions? Also, why are there doe seasons at all when the G&F is "concerned" about total numbers on the decline. There is still a mule deer doe season that impacts the Clarks Fork Herd through the last day of November.

just sayin...mh

 

[jm77]

MH

Are you the only one around Cody complaining? If not, you need to do like we do in central Wyoming; get together and show up at the Commission meeting in April. While your posts are interesting to me, you are going nowhere fast complaining on MM. I know you attend local meetings, but until you present your case to the Commission and embarrass the local G&F, there will be no satisfaction. Be ready for your local guys to try and counter you, but if all you say is true, your words won't fall on deaf ears.

Also, I would bend the ear of your Commissioner before the meeting and send emails out to the rest. Get them to ask the red shirts questions ahead of the meeting.

A word of advise: if you get up and complain about money spent on "pickups and bear management" don't bother taking my advise.

 

[junior]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-19 AT 05:34PM (MST)[p]^^^^This!......
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Participation is your problem. You need to gather.
Im sure NR here will send in an email if you need our input. Im in!
We will probably never get the tags back but if it's to help the herd, so be it.

 

[mightyhunter]

jm 77,

I am certainly not the only one complaining about what has transpired in the Cody Area. A lack of organized opposition just wasn't there. I had a heck of a time getting people who opposed all this to attend meetings locally. The largest group attending the first meetings were local outfitters. One of those outfitters in my discussion group spent the whole time complaining about NR hunters in the wilderness hunting without guides. He hadn't even grasped the concept that with season reductions he was going to be losing a lot of deer hunters. You would not believe how many folks in Powell and Cody despise the warden in Sunlight/Crandall and also the warden on the North Fork of the Shoshone. At one time, I considered the warden in Sunlight/Crandall a friend. Most of the sportsman I know are afraid of retaliation and harassment and won't speak up. You would not believe some of the stories people tell me. That is very frustrating. I was not just complaining on MM. On MM, my goal was to make people think real hard before wasting their money on F NR tags. I think it is a scam. I am amazed at how many suckers G&F can drum up to purchase the tags.

I submitted a 4 1/2 page final comment for the G&F Commission. I wish I could have made it shorter but that was not possible. I also contacted a couple of Commissioners and asked them specifically to review my comments. I was contacted by a person who supervises this area for G&F and the wardens within the area. Just a few days before the comments were to go to G&F, he asked me to withdraw my comments. I declined to do so. What would you make of that?

A few years ago, the G&F withdrew a couple of units from Region F and formed Region X. This allowed them to sell even more NR tags in this area. I don't believe any of it can be justified except to raise more money.

Most of the time when I run into G&F people in Sunlight/Crandall while hiking they are bear people. They all have a pickup. When conversing with them you get the same story over and over again. We believe that there are 700 grizzly bears in the GYE. After making that statement, they follow it up with that is a "conservative number". What they are really saying is we are lying or have been instructed to lie to the public. Dusty Lassiter is about the only one in the bunch I know and trust. That might become a real burden for him with advancement in the G&F.

I am just about out of the game. I am looking forward to helping my hunting partner harvest a goat in 3-1 this year. If we get the goat early, it is my plan to hunt mule deer in the Hoback and Granite Areas. I will also be hunting deer in Idaho.

I am glad I am interesting to someone. I speak my mind when others will not. I hope you had a great 4th of July holiday.

mh

 

[jm77]

MH

I'm not sure how to take this comment:

"Most of the sportsman I know are afraid of retaliation and harassment and won't speak up. You would not believe some of the stories people tell me."

Can you tell me what you mean here? What kind of stories? The only thing I can figure would be they think there would be retaliation and harassment while out in the field? This is hard to believe and I think they are making excuses not to get involved. The hardest part I have found, when many agree on a specific issue, is getting them to participate. But, putting that aside, the Commission would never tolerate such tactics from wardens and neither would the Chief Warden.

I do sense your disdain for some G&F folks up there and I'm sure they sense it too. Your situation is very different than what I am used to in my neck of the woods.

good luck

Jeff

 

[WapitiBob]

I've never had a bad experience with any WYGF employee; from the gal answering the phone up to Director Nesvik.

 

[mightyhunter]

Wapiti Bob,

That is really good that you have never had a bad experience with a Wyoming G&F employee. Until recently, neither had I. I do remember one particularly rude woman who worked in the Cody Office that eventually retired and was replaced by a much nicer young lady. I have lived here in Park County, Wyoming for 20 years and have witnessed some real changes over the years. General deer seasons have been cut repeatedly eliminating the productive part of the seasons. In Area 106 they have cut 17 days off the deer season since 2006. With the exception of one elk unit, all the general elk units have been made LE in this part of NW Wyoming. I have drawn an antelope tag twice in 20 years in the area I live in. There is little or no attempt to study or manage wolf and grizzly bear populations or to determine the role predation plays on moose, deer and elk populations.

I have watched Regional NR general deer tags in this area expanded, or new units created, for no reason but to make more money for G&F. I have watched what happens when doe seasons have been allowed to go through the end of November. Some still do. I witnessed a Wyoming G&F screw up a few years ago. Due to a G&F mistake, Area 105 (a general area)was allowed to proceed for the entire month of November as an either sex tag. Buck hunting for mule deer and whitetails, off of USFS land, was historically confined to November 1st-5th. A lot of bucks died that year with no accountability for the mistake. I have watched new excuses arise every year for why the deer and elk populations never get close to management objectives. The newest excuse is winter kill. I have yet to find a single winter killed mule deer in the last 3 years. I witnessed winter deer kills on Moose Creek near Jackson, Wyoming in the late 1970's and also in the mid 1990's in North Idaho. Heavy winter kill is usually very obvious. I know what to look for. When it happened in North Idaho, the Idaho G&F immediately suspended all doe hunting in Unit 1 for a very long time.

I have good friends that work for G&F in this area. I have also been told to hunt elsewhere by one G&F employee if I didn't like what has happened to the deer and elk hunting in the area or the way it has been mismanaged. That same person brags consistently about his own hunting prowess. I have had G&F employees demand that I tell them where I hunt so they can tell everyone else who isn't willing to take the time to scout and search areas out. I have been repeatedly lied to by one G&F employee about how to access particularly remote areas in the Sunlight. I have had friends and others harassed for no reason. I have seen individuals receive preferential treatment from a local warden in obvious deer and elk poaching situations. I have contacted G&F employees about some bad situations I have run into with grizzly bears. A couple of years ago, I repeatedly attempted to contact the local warden about a situation where 5 grizzly bears were eating two cows less than 100 ft from a well used USFS road just off the Chief Joseph Highway. Those are serious situations that need to be dealt with immediately before someone gets hurt or killed. The USFS took action because the Wyoming G&F did zip.

I took the time last year to attend local meetings and to provide 5 pages of comments to the G&F Commission. I was asked to withdraw my comments just before they went to the commission by a local supervisor from Wyoming G&F. I didn't do that. That request was totally out of line.

If I seem a little disgusted, maybe I should just keep it to myself and pretend that all is just "aces" around here. Sure there are some great people at Game and Fish in this area.

just sayin...mh

 

[NECALI]

Thanks to all of you guys that are passionate about the mule deer herds around the Cody area. I am a NR that used to hunt region F for about 15 years. I finally gave up after the last year there about 4 years ago. I saw the herds decline noticeably. It was very disappointing to go from some pretty good hunting to lousy hunting in that time frame. We used to hunt the Hoodoo ranch and would have some pretty good hunts. We would always see bucks and quite a few deer every day. The last year we hunting there, we spent a whole day hunting and never saw a deer. Not even any fresh tracks. The deer were all but gone in that area. I thing the deer predation permits were ridiculous. We talked to one Warden farther up the South Fork who said a rancher up that way didn't like all the deer on his place so they issued him 200 doe predation tags. After that year his ranch went from having hundreds of deer on it to less than a dozen. The next few years was the same on his ranch. Basically no deer. It's a sad situation that I hope will turn around, but I really think it won't.