CWD to other species: another angle?

txhunter58

txhunter58

Long Time Member
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I have been in discussions about whether or not CWD might ever cross into humans, and of course the jury is still out.

However, I have bought a bear tag for the first time this year for Colorado, and it got me thinking:

If it ever does cross to other species, might it first be to the predators that eat these infected animals rountinely? Namely Bears and Lions?

Could they be a sentinel for warning us if it ever does happen?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
You're an intelligent and articulate person. I don't see this happening unless there are some extreme circumstances, like injections in a lab. CWD has been in CO and WY for decades and if this was going to be an issue, we would have seen it appear by now. I'd guess I have eaten dozens of infected critters and gutted hundreds of infected ones if the current estimates on infection percentages are correct. I'm a bit looney, but no sign of a spongiform encephalopathy just yet.
 
Jim, did you ever win a national spelling bee. Holy cow.

I've eaten it too. Still kicking.

TX, this is off the subject, but do you still have a cabin over by Groundhog Reservoir? pc
 
ICM: I think you have made my point.

If it were going to jump species barriers, bears and lions have eaten a TON of infected animals without any known breaks. I hope that bodes well for us as humans!

Paul. Yes, and I try and spend all the time I can there!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
TXhunter,

Studies have shown familial jumps of the prion is possible to both primates and felids which were orally consuming infected meat. Also, even though it can't be proven at this point, we believe the most likely source of CWD was a familial jump from Bovids to Cervids.

Yes, more than likely people have consumed infected meats, as have bears, cougars, and coyotes. Just because there has not been a documented jump into us or them doesn't mean it is impossible or even not probable. That isn't how science or statistics work.

I also haven't heard of any studies, state or private, looking for prion diseases infecting bears, lions, or coyotes. I do remember they have done a study which showed coyotes could eat infected meat and the prion travels all the way through their GI tract and is redistributed in their stool.

Think of it this way. We may not have had a recent flu pandemic. You, I, and many others, may have all had a flue shot this year. You I and others have all had the flu. Maybe multiple times. Is it likely that a flu pandemic would break out in the USA this year that kills millions? Probably not. Is it possible? Hell yes. Would you suggest to people to hang out with infected individuals if they have had a flu shot? Probably not.

Look I realize I compared two totally different forms of infection and disease. But at the same time I would highly recommend people do not purposely consume CWD infected animals. Tons of people get shot dead every year by guns they know aren't loaded. Lets not let common sense and assumptions overpower good sense, science, and safety.

Good luck on your hunt.
 
To be clear, I have always come down on the side of caution, and I will get my meat tested and will never knowingly eat a CWD animal or feed it to my family.

Just bought a bear tag for the first time this week and stated to wonder about natural predators. If they were getting infected I think we would be seeing clinical cases in predators. It is good that we are not.

Still doesn't mean it could never happen

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Pretty sure that study has not been peer reviewed or replicated, are you talking the macaque study?
 
"are you talking the macaque study?"

I don't know if we are talking about the same study. I am talking about two different experiments. I have read at least four different macaque studies in the last two years in regards to CWD. The cat experiment was separate. I have absolutely no idea if these experiments have been replicated. I have absolutely no idea if any group has attempted to replicate them.

Every professional scientist, biologist, veterinarian, and epidemiologist, that I have met is suggesting DO NOT EAT CWD INFECTED DEER.
 
Interesting as the ones we know that work at the state Vet lab and do the testing and research on CWD don't even get their animnals tested, just don't eat or harvest a sickly looking animals.
They have been working with it for years.
Same for the BSL-3 lab folks at the state complex.
The folks you know are just now learning to deal with it I'm assuming, down in Texas? The folks up here have been working and studying it since the 1980's.


We need more studies that replicate the type of transmission that would occur when infected meat is eaten, not just inoculated into brains.

Good discussion though, thanks Tristate.
 
I think Texas is taking it a lot more seriously than many states are. Here it is a multi-billion dollar a year industry. Other states not so much. Some of those other states have recorded deer herds which are falling close to %20 annually. We would rather not have to deal with that if we can help it. We would also rather not deal with the fallout from the CDC and USFWS when a human transmission does occur. Maybe the well being fellow men aren't that important up in your state vet lab but its still pretty dam important down in Texas.

By the way wytex the study I was talking about was consumed meat and not "inoculated into brains".
 
wytex,

The first thing you have to understand is that tristate is the leading expert on anything and everything.

Don't trust those folks that have been studying CWD for the last 30-35+ years...they don't know much in comparison. In fact if they wanted to learn more about it, they would straight up just hire tristate.

I'd also like to see these areas that tristate is referencing where deer herds are "falling close to %20 annually".

I can say for 100% fact that the deer herds in CWD central, right out my front door in Wyoming, are not declining at "%20". In fact, the herds in those areas have seen increases the last few years. As to elk, in the same areas, we cant kill enough elk to control numbers. Cow to calf ratio's are 30+ calves per 100 cows post harvest.

The macaque study is inconclusive, has not been peer-reviewed, and really not worthy of being taken seriously at this point.

Anyone that wants to learn more about CWD would be wise to listen to the experts...and a good place to start is right here. Dr. Kelly Straka and Dr. Krysten Schaler do a good job of explaining what is and is not known.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/hu...rg-unfiltered-hunting-conservation/e/56376551
 
Hey BuzzH I'll be sure and give you my deer meat when it tests positive for CWD. Your welcome.


I don't claim to know everything. But this is a subject I pay very close attention to. I hold a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences. I have managed deer herds for a living. I have collected CWD samples for the state of Texas. I have many friends and a family member which are dealing with this professionally daily in both TP&WD and TAHC. I am dealing with it professionally and in my hunting because I hunt deer in one of the state CWD zones.


For quite awhile SCIENTISTS TOLD PEOPLE mad cow disease couldn't infect humans. People are now dead because of it.

Do you realize that so little is known about prion diseases that there actually can be infected with CWD, a CWD variant, or another unknown prion, and scientists and doctors literally wouldn't even know what they are looking at???????
 
>Interesting as the ones we know
>that work at the state
>Vet lab and do the
>testing and research on CWD
>don't even get their animnals
>tested, just don't eat or
>harvest a sickly looking animals.
>
.


I know a couple of guys from Texas that both killed healthy, Mature mule deer bucks with better than average antlers and ZERO outward symptoms of disease and yet both bucks tested positive for CWD. So I will keep testing mine.

I did not mean to turn this into a pissing match about whether or not it will ever cross to humans. That has already been discussed ad nauseum. However, it is a good sign that 10s of thousands of Bears and Cats in the wild have been eating CWD animals for decades, and there has not be any reported crossover. That is a good thing.




txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-19 AT 01:46PM (MST)[p]There has not been much talk anymore about how and were CWD started. The Colorado Division of Wildlife started all this years ago in NE Colorado with some experiments involving some captive deer. Then when the deer got sick they turned them loose?? Then turned around and tried to blame the Elk farmers for the outbreak of CWD. Just Google This
http://www.mafwa.org/?p=2741
 
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/new...nic-wasting-disease-transmissibility-macaques

As far as the thesis, I personally know some of the folks cited on it with her and have talked with them. They do not believe the deer herd will be extinct in 40 + years. Their data merely suggests it will happen.

Small world, I have a wildlife management degree as well . Work for a local managing his deer and elk. Have many friends working on CWD issues as well. Spouse worked at Sybille for years. I know well your Wildlife Director at TP&W.

Seems to me you should be more worried about anthrax, it's killing more deer than CWD right now in Texas.

Yes, deer and elk can be carriers without showing symptoms and test positive.
 
" They do not believe the deer herd will be extinct in 40 + years. Their data merely suggests it will happen."

I agree completely with that statement. Problem is that the heard will be reduced enough that tag numbers will continue to fall and then you will get to hunt less and less. So effectively your apathy screws future hunters. Second you end up getting exposed to what the antis do in a little bait and switch to shut down seasosns on people. Lets say hypothetically the herd is reduced by %80 in 41 years. The antis start telling the government that mule deer numbers have crashed and the only way to stop them from being extinct is to list them under ESA. Won't matter that herds are fine all over the west to a non-hunting federal politician. They do it all the time. They are doing that trick with giraffes right now.

I know Carter Smith as well. I seriously doubt he is recommending anyone should eat CWD infected deer.


"Seems to me you should be more worried about anthrax, it's killing more deer than CWD right now in Texas."

YOUR IN LUCK. NOBODY HERE IS TELLING PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET TO STICK ANTHRAX IN THEIR PIEHOLE EITHER!

That shows you know very little about either disease. TP&W treat anthrax very seriously. But Anthrax as a disease perpetuates itself under a very specific condition and then goes away. CWD occurs under any natural condition and is a lasting threat for decades. Our state is working very hard to deal with that too just like we have dealt with it before and overcome it. Nobody is writing articles about the deer herd going extinct in west Texas in the next 41 years. the heard will be damaged and over several years it will recover. Just as it has for centuries.
 
?Seems to me you should be more worried about anthrax, it's killing more deer than CWD right now in Texas?

As a veterinarian and someone who has a ranch in Sutton county (where anthrax cases have been reported), I can tell you I worry 1000x more about CWD than anthrax. As stated, it happens some summers of cool wet, followed by dry, hot, dusty conditions. So we have some cases about every 10 years and then it goes pretty dormant for a long time. We do have a vaccine for it too.

The worry with CWD is not what is happening in Texas now but what will be happening in the future.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Who is Carter Smith, not who I was talking about.


Keep pounding on that keyboard Tristate.
The folks cited on that study you believe will greatly reduce the deer numbers are the folks I know . They do not believe the herd will be knocked down by 80%.
The expanding wolf population will be more of an issue than CWD on our herds.
The study area is north of Sybille, where CWD was brought in and is now studied, the ranch we manage literally shares a fence with Sybille, no deer herd decimation as of yet, but we've only been on the ranch for 25 years.


All I am saying is , no need for panic. Our deer and elk herds are not in danger of extinction.
There has been no cases of CWD jumping to people.
If you worry about it then just hunt elsewhere and get your animals tested.

I'm not advocating to anyone else that they eat a positive tested deer, but I'm not about to panic because I have eaten one or many. No one else is advocating that either, but we're saying no need to panic. Is more study needed, absolutely. Is it possible one day species jump will occur, perhaps.

By the way my pie hole will have cherry fried pies in it today and elk steaks tonight, not tested by the way.
 
"Who is Carter Smith,"

The director of TP&W.

"The folks cited on that study you believe will greatly reduce the deer numbers are the folks I know . They do not believe the herd will be knocked down by 80%."

Really?????? They do believe they will loose %19 of the herd annually. At least that's what they published. How may years do you think it takes to loos %80 of your heard at that rate? The answer is 8. SO what is the truth? What you say yall gossip about or what they release to the public????? Are they lying to you or everyone else?

"The expanding wolf population will be more of an issue than CWD on our herds."

SO does that mean?

"All I am saying is , no need for panic."

Actually that's not all you said and that's the very first time you have said it. But I completely agree. There is no need to panic. But you sure better not sit on your ass and wait for a miracle either.

"If you worry about it then just hunt elsewhere and get your animals tested."

No I am going to stay pro-active and help others. This problem is bigger than me and hunting. I think that may be your problem is you are a little to self-centered to realize the magnitude of what is going on.

"There has been no cases of CWD jumping to people."

Really I wasn't aware every dead person had been tested for it. What are you God? I am sure what you meant to say is no Human has tested positive for CWD. However do you have any idea how many humans have been tested for CWD? Really do you know?

"Is it possible one day species jump will occur, perhaps."

This is exactly what I have been saying here. Glad you agree. Under that premise I urge hunters to not consume infected meat.
 
Kind like blue tongue it comes and kills and then move on for awhile.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
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